just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
still must obey fall below light speed..

Mitchell Raemsch

Black holes don't exist because properties
an idiot physicist is assigning to them are
expelling existence and expelling each other.

Gamma math shows there is a push limit
for force and propulsion... the atom cannot
reach the speed of light...

You cannot end time.

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> still must obey fall below light speed..

They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
can be arbitrary, in general.

--
Jan

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail..com wrote:
> > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > still must obey fall below light speed..
> They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> can be arbitrary, in general.

Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
where falling reaches the speed of light and goes beyond
inside a BH by more gravity there.

Mitchell Raemsch
>
> --
> Jan

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > > still must obey fall below light speed..
> > They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > can be arbitrary, in general.
>
> Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.

False.

You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.

> BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> where falling reaches the speed of light

False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
tends to zero, not the speed of light.

> and goes beyond
> inside a BH by more gravity there.

Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.

Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.

--
Jan

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail..com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > > > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > > > still must obey fall below light speed..
> > > They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > > can be arbitrary, in general.
> >
> > Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> False.

Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
There are no BHs.
>
> You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> > BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> > where falling reaches the speed of light
> False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> tends to zero, not the speed of light.

Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> > and goes beyond
> > inside a BH by more gravity there.
> Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
>
> Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
>
> --
> Jan

Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
He didn't.

Mitchell Raemsch

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > > > > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > > > > still must obey fall below light speed..
> > > > They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > > > can be arbitrary, in general.
> > >
> > > Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> > False.
> Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> There are no BHs.
> >
> > You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> > > BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> > > where falling reaches the speed of light
> > False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> > tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> > > and goes beyond
> > > inside a BH by more gravity there.
> > Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> > that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> >
> > Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> >
> > --
> > Jan
> Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> He didn't.

Done.

--
Jan

On Wednesday, 15 March 2023 at 23:23:49 UTC+1, JanPB wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail..com wrote:
> > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > still must obey fall below light speed..
> They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> can be arbitrary, in general.

And what other speeds does your physics has,
poor halfbrain?

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail..com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > > > > > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > > > > > still must obey fall below light speed..
> > > > > They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > > > > can be arbitrary, in general.
> > > >
> > > > Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> > > False.
> > Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> > There are no BHs.
> > >
> > > You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> > > > BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> > > > where falling reaches the speed of light
> > > False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> > > tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> > Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> > > > and goes beyond
> > > > inside a BH by more gravity there.
> > > Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> > > that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> > >
> > > Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jan
> > Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> > He didn't.
> Done.

That is what they all say where they have been undone...
There is no BH in reality. It is just an overshoot in the
theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
a limit instead... by Gamma...
We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
BHs have already lost.
..

> Jan

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > > > > > > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > > > > > > still must obey fall below light speed..
> > > > > > They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > > > > > can be arbitrary, in general.
> > > > >
> > > > > Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> > > > False.
> > > Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> > > There are no BHs.
> > > >
> > > > You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> > > > > BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> > > > > where falling reaches the speed of light
> > > > False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> > > > tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> > > Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> > > > > and goes beyond
> > > > > inside a BH by more gravity there.
> > > > Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> > > > that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> > > >
> > > > Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jan
> > > Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> > > He didn't.
> > Done.
> That is what they all say where they have been undone...
> There is no BH in reality.

Again, you are changing the subject now.

First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
ignores quantum phenomena.

But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].

> It is just an overshoot in the
> theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
> a limit instead... by Gamma...
> We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
> BHs have already lost.

You are again trying to smash open an open door.

--
Jan

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail..com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > > > > > > > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > > > > > > > still must obey fall below light speed..
> > > > > > > They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > > > > > > can be arbitrary, in general.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> > > > > False.
> > > > Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> > > > There are no BHs.
> > > > >
> > > > > You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> > > > > > BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> > > > > > where falling reaches the speed of light
> > > > > False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> > > > > tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> > > > Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> > > > > > and goes beyond
> > > > > > inside a BH by more gravity there.
> > > > > Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> > > > > that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Jan
> > > > Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> > > > He didn't.
> > > Done.
> > That is what they all say where they have been undone...
> > There is no BH in reality.
> Again, you are changing the subject now.
>
> First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in

Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.

> the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
> time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
> ignores quantum phenomena.
>
> But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
> as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
> > It is just an overshoot in the
> > theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
> > a limit instead... by Gamma...
> > We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
> > BHs have already lost.
> You are again trying to smash open an open door.
>
> --
> Jan

Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.
No reaching light speed by the atom in physics... by force or propulsion...

Mitchell Raemsch

On Thursday, 16 March 2023 at 19:18:00 UTC+1, JanPB wrote:

> First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
> the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
> time.

An impudent lie from an impudent trash.

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > > > > > > > > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > > > > > > > > still must obey fall below light speed..
> > > > > > > > They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > > > > > > > can be arbitrary, in general.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> > > > > > False.
> > > > > Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> > > > > There are no BHs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> > > > > > > BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> > > > > > > where falling reaches the speed of light
> > > > > > False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> > > > > > tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> > > > > Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> > > > > > > and goes beyond
> > > > > > > inside a BH by more gravity there.
> > > > > > Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> > > > > > that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Jan
> > > > > Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> > > > > He didn't.
> > > > Done.
> > > That is what they all say where they have been undone...
> > > There is no BH in reality.
> > Again, you are changing the subject now.
> >
> > First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
> Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.
> > the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
> > time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
> > ignores quantum phenomena.
> >
> > But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
> > as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
> > > It is just an overshoot in the
> > > theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
> > > a limit instead... by Gamma...
> > > We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
> > > BHs have already lost.
> > You are again trying to smash open an open door.
> >
> > --
> > Jan
> Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.

But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.
That's why your original post was incorrect.

--
Jan

On Thursday, 16 March 2023 at 19:40:47 UTC+1, JanPB wrote:

> But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.

And what other speed does your physics have, poor
halfbrain?

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:40:47 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail..com wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > > > > > > > > > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > > > > > > > > > still must obey fall below light speed..
> > > > > > > > > They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > > > > > > > > can be arbitrary, in general.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> > > > > > > False.
> > > > > > Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> > > > > > There are no BHs.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> > > > > > > > BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> > > > > > > > where falling reaches the speed of light
> > > > > > > False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> > > > > > > tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> > > > > > Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> > > > > > > > and goes beyond
> > > > > > > > inside a BH by more gravity there.
> > > > > > > Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> > > > > > > that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Jan
> > > > > > Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> > > > > > He didn't.
> > > > > Done.
> > > > That is what they all say where they have been undone...
> > > > There is no BH in reality.
> > > Again, you are changing the subject now.
> > >
> > > First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
> > Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.
> > > the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
> > > time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
> > > ignores quantum phenomena.
> > >
> > > But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
> > > as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
> > > > It is just an overshoot in the
> > > > theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
> > > > a limit instead... by Gamma...
> > > > We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
> > > > BHs have already lost.
> > > You are again trying to smash open an open door.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jan
> > Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.
> But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.

That is where you are wrong. All atomic speed shares the same limit demonstrated by
the Gamma...or below c you moron... your coordinate speeds are not special....

Mitchell Raemsch

> That's why your original post was incorrect.
>
> --
> Jan

On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:41:07 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:40:47 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > > > > > > > > > > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > > > > > > > > > > still must obey fall below light speed..
> > > > > > > > > > They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > > > > > > > > > can be arbitrary, in general.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> > > > > > > > False.
> > > > > > > Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> > > > > > > There are no BHs.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> > > > > > > > > BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> > > > > > > > > where falling reaches the speed of light
> > > > > > > > False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> > > > > > > > tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> > > > > > > Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> > > > > > > > > and goes beyond
> > > > > > > > > inside a BH by more gravity there.
> > > > > > > > Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> > > > > > > > that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Jan
> > > > > > > Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> > > > > > > He didn't.
> > > > > > Done.
> > > > > That is what they all say where they have been undone...
> > > > > There is no BH in reality.
> > > > Again, you are changing the subject now.
> > > >
> > > > First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
> > > Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.
> > > > the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
> > > > time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
> > > > ignores quantum phenomena.
> > > >
> > > > But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
> > > > as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
> > > > > It is just an overshoot in the
> > > > > theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
> > > > > a limit instead... by Gamma...
> > > > > We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
> > > > > BHs have already lost.
> > > > You are again trying to smash open an open door.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jan
> > > Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.
> >
> > But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.
>
> That is where you are wrong.

No, I am 100% correct. And I gave you a proof already: when you turn
your head 90 degrees to the left, the Andromeda galaxy moves 90
degrees to the right at a coordinate speed far exceeding that of light.

Coorfdinate speeds are merely accounting devices, they don't have
immediate physical meaning (they do have a meaning after processing
the data but they don't have a meaning as bare numbers which can
be ARBITRARY).

> All atomic speed shares the same limit demonstrated by
> the Gamma...or below c you moron... your coordinate speeds are not special...

No, false. Coordinate speeds can be ARBITRARY. What you are referring to
is speeds measured in proper (Riemannian) coordinates which are very
special.

Bottom line is that any trajectory in GR that's timelike, is automatically
below the c speed limit.

So there is nothing left to discuss here.

--
Jan

On Friday, 17 March 2023 at 21:33:30 UTC+1, JanPB wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:41:07 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:40:47 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > > > > > > > > > > > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > > > > > > > > > > > still must obey fall below light speed..
> > > > > > > > > > > They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > > > > > > > > > > can be arbitrary, in general.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> > > > > > > > > False.
> > > > > > > > Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> > > > > > > > There are no BHs.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> > > > > > > > > > BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> > > > > > > > > > where falling reaches the speed of light
> > > > > > > > > False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> > > > > > > > > tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> > > > > > > > Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> > > > > > > > > > and goes beyond
> > > > > > > > > > inside a BH by more gravity there.
> > > > > > > > > Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> > > > > > > > > that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Jan
> > > > > > > > Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> > > > > > > > He didn't.
> > > > > > > Done.
> > > > > > That is what they all say where they have been undone...
> > > > > > There is no BH in reality.
> > > > > Again, you are changing the subject now.
> > > > >
> > > > > First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
> > > > Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.
> > > > > the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
> > > > > time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
> > > > > ignores quantum phenomena.
> > > > >
> > > > > But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
> > > > > as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
> > > > > > It is just an overshoot in the
> > > > > > theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
> > > > > > a limit instead... by Gamma...
> > > > > > We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
> > > > > > BHs have already lost.
> > > > > You are again trying to smash open an open door.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Jan
> > > > Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.
> > >
> > > But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.
> >
> > That is where you are wrong.
> No, I am 100% correct. And I gave you a proof already: when you turn
> your head 90 degrees to the left, the Andromeda galaxy moves 90
> degrees to the right at a coordinate speed far exceeding that of light.
>
> Coorfdinate speeds are merely accounting devices

and what other speeds do you have, poor halfbrain?

On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:33:30 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:41:07 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:40:47 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > > > > > > > > > > > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > > > > > > > > > > > still must obey fall below light speed..
> > > > > > > > > > > They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > > > > > > > > > > can be arbitrary, in general.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> > > > > > > > > False.
> > > > > > > > Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> > > > > > > > There are no BHs.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> > > > > > > > > > BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> > > > > > > > > > where falling reaches the speed of light
> > > > > > > > > False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> > > > > > > > > tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> > > > > > > > Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> > > > > > > > > > and goes beyond
> > > > > > > > > > inside a BH by more gravity there.
> > > > > > > > > Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> > > > > > > > > that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Jan
> > > > > > > > Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> > > > > > > > He didn't.
> > > > > > > Done.
> > > > > > That is what they all say where they have been undone...
> > > > > > There is no BH in reality.
> > > > > Again, you are changing the subject now.
> > > > >
> > > > > First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
> > > > Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.
> > > > > the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
> > > > > time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
> > > > > ignores quantum phenomena.
> > > > >
> > > > > But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
> > > > > as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
> > > > > > It is just an overshoot in the
> > > > > > theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
> > > > > > a limit instead... by Gamma...
> > > > > > We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
> > > > > > BHs have already lost.
> > > > > You are again trying to smash open an open door.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Jan
> > > > Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.
> > >
> > > But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.
> >
> > That is where you are wrong.
> No, I am 100% correct. And I gave you a proof already: when you turn
> your head 90 degrees to the left, the Andromeda galaxy moves 90
> degrees to the right at a coordinate speed far exceeding that of light.
>
> Coorfdinate speeds are merely accounting devices, they don't have
> immediate physical meaning (they do have a meaning after processing
> the data but they don't have a meaning as bare numbers which can
> be ARBITRARY).

Falling at the speed of light is real in BH theory jan.
That is why BHs are wrong.

Mitchell Raemsch

> > All atomic speed shares the same limit demonstrated by
> > the Gamma...or below c you moron... your coordinate speeds are not special...
> No, false. Coordinate speeds can be ARBITRARY. What you are referring to
> is speeds measured in proper (Riemannian) coordinates which are very
> special.
>
> Bottom line is that any trajectory in GR that's timelike, is automatically
> below the c speed limit.
>
> So there is nothing left to discuss here.
>
> --
> Jan

On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 6:26:01 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:33:30 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:41:07 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:40:47 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > > > > > > > > > > > > acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > still must obey fall below light speed..
> > > > > > > > > > > > They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > > > > > > > > > > > can be arbitrary, in general.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> > > > > > > > > > False.
> > > > > > > > > Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> > > > > > > > > There are no BHs.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> > > > > > > > > > > BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> > > > > > > > > > > where falling reaches the speed of light
> > > > > > > > > > False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> > > > > > > > > > tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> > > > > > > > > Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> > > > > > > > > > > and goes beyond
> > > > > > > > > > > inside a BH by more gravity there.
> > > > > > > > > > Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> > > > > > > > > > that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > Jan
> > > > > > > > > Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> > > > > > > > > He didn't.
> > > > > > > > Done.
> > > > > > > That is what they all say where they have been undone...
> > > > > > > There is no BH in reality.
> > > > > > Again, you are changing the subject now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
> > > > > Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.
> > > > > > the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
> > > > > > time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
> > > > > > ignores quantum phenomena.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
> > > > > > as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
> > > > > > > It is just an overshoot in the
> > > > > > > theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
> > > > > > > a limit instead... by Gamma...
> > > > > > > We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
> > > > > > > BHs have already lost.
> > > > > > You are again trying to smash open an open door.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Jan
> > > > > Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.
> > > >
> > > > But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.
> > >
> > > That is where you are wrong.
> > No, I am 100% correct. And I gave you a proof already: when you turn
> > your head 90 degrees to the left, the Andromeda galaxy moves 90
> > degrees to the right at a coordinate speed far exceeding that of light.
> >
> > Coorfdinate speeds are merely accounting devices, they don't have
> > immediate physical meaning (they do have a meaning after processing
> > the data but they don't have a meaning as bare numbers which can
> > be ARBITRARY).
> Falling at the speed of light is real in BH theory jan.

It's false. I have shown you the actual formulas.

> That is why BHs are wrong.

If it's wrong, it's not for that reason. The "speed of light" crossing
of the horizon is simply a measurement made by a distant observer
on the outside using certain types of measuring devices. The actual
object that's falling in does so along a trajectory that's always timelike.
This means it never goes faster than the speed of light.

--
Jan

On 3/17/2023 9:09 PM, JanPB wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 6:26:01 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:33:30 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:41:07 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:40:47 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still must obey fall below light speed..
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be arbitrary, in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
>>>>>>>>>>> False.
>>>>>>>>>> Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
>>>>>>>>>> There are no BHs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
>>>>>>>>>>>> BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
>>>>>>>>>>>> where falling reaches the speed of light
>>>>>>>>>>> False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
>>>>>>>>>>> tends to zero, not the speed of light.
>>>>>>>>>> Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
>>>>>>>>>>>> and goes beyond
>>>>>>>>>>>> inside a BH by more gravity there.
>>>>>>>>>>> Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
>>>>>>>>>>> that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>>>>> Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
>>>>>>>>>> He didn't.
>>>>>>>>> Done.
>>>>>>>> That is what they all say where they have been undone...
>>>>>>>> There is no BH in reality.
>>>>>>> Again, you are changing the subject now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
>>>>>> Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.
>>>>>>> the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
>>>>>>> time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
>>>>>>> ignores quantum phenomena.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
>>>>>>> as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
>>>>>>>> It is just an overshoot in the
>>>>>>>> theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
>>>>>>>> a limit instead... by Gamma...
>>>>>>>> We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
>>>>>>>> BHs have already lost.
>>>>>>> You are again trying to smash open an open door.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>> Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.
>>>>>
>>>>> But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.
>>>>
>>>> That is where you are wrong.
>>> No, I am 100% correct. And I gave you a proof already: when you turn
>>> your head 90 degrees to the left, the Andromeda galaxy moves 90
>>> degrees to the right at a coordinate speed far exceeding that of light.
>>>
>>> Coorfdinate speeds are merely accounting devices, they don't have
>>> immediate physical meaning (they do have a meaning after processing
>>> the data but they don't have a meaning as bare numbers which can
>>> be ARBITRARY).
>> Falling at the speed of light is real in BH theory jan.
>
> It's false. I have shown you the actual formulas.
>
>> That is why BHs are wrong.
>
> If it's wrong, it's not for that reason. The "speed of light" crossing
> of the horizon is simply a measurement made by a distant observer
> on the outside using certain types of measuring devices. The actual
> object that's falling in does so along a trajectory that's always timelike.
> This means it never goes faster than the speed of light.

I wouldn't go so far as to state that the same rules of nature that
apply to the general universe remain unquestionably unaltered inside
an event horizon.

There is a goodly history of cogent discussions related to that topic.
Unfortunately we do not have the sort of readership that would lend
itself to sentient discussions about this so it is probably best I
stop right here. But I will mention that Wheeler had a discussion
(can probably be found on YouTube) clearly indicating that the rules
of nature have not "always been." If there was a beginning then they
are not permanently fixed.

That's enough for me to recognize that there are a myriad of
legitimate possibilities for unusual circumstances without
understanding enough about such conditions to take a particular
stance in any specific example.

There, I think I've incorporated enough hedges to keep me out of
any serious trouble. :-) Still, sane readers can decipher the above
enough to make it useful.

On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 7:45:31 PM UTC-7, whodat wrote:
> On 3/17/2023 9:09 PM, JanPB wrote:
> > On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 6:26:01 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:33:30 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> >>> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:41:07 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:40:47 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr....@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> still must obey fall below light speed..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> can be arbitrary, in general.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> >>>>>>>>>>> False.
> >>>>>>>>>> Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> >>>>>>>>>> There are no BHs.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> >>>>>>>>>>>> where falling reaches the speed of light
> >>>>>>>>>>> False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> >>>>>>>>>>> tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> >>>>>>>>>> Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and goes beyond
> >>>>>>>>>>>> inside a BH by more gravity there.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> >>>>>>>>>>> that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Jan
> >>>>>>>>>> Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> >>>>>>>>>> He didn't.
> >>>>>>>>> Done.
> >>>>>>>> That is what they all say where they have been undone...
> >>>>>>>> There is no BH in reality.
> >>>>>>> Again, you are changing the subject now.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
> >>>>>> Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.
> >>>>>>> the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
> >>>>>>> time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
> >>>>>>> ignores quantum phenomena.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
> >>>>>>> as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
> >>>>>>>> It is just an overshoot in the
> >>>>>>>> theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
> >>>>>>>> a limit instead... by Gamma...
> >>>>>>>> We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
> >>>>>>>> BHs have already lost.
> >>>>>>> You are again trying to smash open an open door.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Jan
> >>>>>> Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.
> >>>>
> >>>> That is where you are wrong.
> >>> No, I am 100% correct. And I gave you a proof already: when you turn
> >>> your head 90 degrees to the left, the Andromeda galaxy moves 90
> >>> degrees to the right at a coordinate speed far exceeding that of light.
> >>>
> >>> Coorfdinate speeds are merely accounting devices, they don't have
> >>> immediate physical meaning (they do have a meaning after processing
> >>> the data but they don't have a meaning as bare numbers which can
> >>> be ARBITRARY).
> >> Falling at the speed of light is real in BH theory jan.
> >
> > It's false. I have shown you the actual formulas.
> >
> >> That is why BHs are wrong.
> >
> > If it's wrong, it's not for that reason. The "speed of light" crossing
> > of the horizon is simply a measurement made by a distant observer
> > on the outside using certain types of measuring devices. The actual
> > object that's falling in does so along a trajectory that's always timelike.
> > This means it never goes faster than the speed of light.
> I wouldn't go so far as to state that the same rules of nature that
> apply to the general universe remain unquestionably unaltered inside
> an event horizon.

They do in GR. That's what the phrase "the theory predicts that..." means.

--
Jan

On Saturday, 18 March 2023 at 03:45:31 UTC+1, whodat wrote:
> On 3/17/2023 9:09 PM, JanPB wrote:
> > On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 6:26:01 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:33:30 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> >>> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:41:07 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:40:47 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr....@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> still must obey fall below light speed..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> can be arbitrary, in general.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> >>>>>>>>>>> False.
> >>>>>>>>>> Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> >>>>>>>>>> There are no BHs.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> >>>>>>>>>>>> where falling reaches the speed of light
> >>>>>>>>>>> False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> >>>>>>>>>>> tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> >>>>>>>>>> Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and goes beyond
> >>>>>>>>>>>> inside a BH by more gravity there.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> >>>>>>>>>>> that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Jan
> >>>>>>>>>> Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> >>>>>>>>>> He didn't.
> >>>>>>>>> Done.
> >>>>>>>> That is what they all say where they have been undone...
> >>>>>>>> There is no BH in reality.
> >>>>>>> Again, you are changing the subject now.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
> >>>>>> Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.
> >>>>>>> the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
> >>>>>>> time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
> >>>>>>> ignores quantum phenomena.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
> >>>>>>> as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
> >>>>>>>> It is just an overshoot in the
> >>>>>>>> theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
> >>>>>>>> a limit instead... by Gamma...
> >>>>>>>> We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
> >>>>>>>> BHs have already lost.
> >>>>>>> You are again trying to smash open an open door.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Jan
> >>>>>> Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.
> >>>>
> >>>> That is where you are wrong.
> >>> No, I am 100% correct. And I gave you a proof already: when you turn
> >>> your head 90 degrees to the left, the Andromeda galaxy moves 90
> >>> degrees to the right at a coordinate speed far exceeding that of light.
> >>>
> >>> Coorfdinate speeds are merely accounting devices, they don't have
> >>> immediate physical meaning (they do have a meaning after processing
> >>> the data but they don't have a meaning as bare numbers which can
> >>> be ARBITRARY).
> >> Falling at the speed of light is real in BH theory jan.
> >
> > It's false. I have shown you the actual formulas.
> >
> >> That is why BHs are wrong.
> >
> > If it's wrong, it's not for that reason. The "speed of light" crossing
> > of the horizon is simply a measurement made by a distant observer
> > on the outside using certain types of measuring devices. The actual
> > object that's falling in does so along a trajectory that's always timelike.
> > This means it never goes faster than the speed of light.
> I wouldn't go so far as to state that the same rules of nature

rules of nature, of course, invented and postulated
by some insane halfbraims.

On 3/17/2023 10:34 PM, JanPB wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 7:45:31 PM UTC-7, whodat wrote:
>> On 3/17/2023 9:09 PM, JanPB wrote:
>>> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 6:26:01 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:33:30 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:41:07 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:40:47 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still must obey fall below light speed..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be arbitrary, in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> False.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are no BHs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where falling reaches the speed of light
>>>>>>>>>>>>> False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tends to zero, not the speed of light.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and goes beyond
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inside a BH by more gravity there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
>>>>>>>>>>>> He didn't.
>>>>>>>>>>> Done.
>>>>>>>>>> That is what they all say where they have been undone...
>>>>>>>>>> There is no BH in reality.
>>>>>>>>> Again, you are changing the subject now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
>>>>>>>> Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.
>>>>>>>>> the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
>>>>>>>>> time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
>>>>>>>>> ignores quantum phenomena.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
>>>>>>>>> as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
>>>>>>>>>> It is just an overshoot in the
>>>>>>>>>> theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
>>>>>>>>>> a limit instead... by Gamma...
>>>>>>>>>> We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
>>>>>>>>>> BHs have already lost.
>>>>>>>>> You are again trying to smash open an open door.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>>> Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is where you are wrong.
>>>>> No, I am 100% correct. And I gave you a proof already: when you turn
>>>>> your head 90 degrees to the left, the Andromeda galaxy moves 90
>>>>> degrees to the right at a coordinate speed far exceeding that of light.
>>>>>
>>>>> Coorfdinate speeds are merely accounting devices, they don't have
>>>>> immediate physical meaning (they do have a meaning after processing
>>>>> the data but they don't have a meaning as bare numbers which can
>>>>> be ARBITRARY).
>>>> Falling at the speed of light is real in BH theory jan.
>>>
>>> It's false. I have shown you the actual formulas.
>>>
>>>> That is why BHs are wrong.
>>>
>>> If it's wrong, it's not for that reason. The "speed of light" crossing
>>> of the horizon is simply a measurement made by a distant observer
>>> on the outside using certain types of measuring devices. The actual
>>> object that's falling in does so along a trajectory that's always timelike.
>>> This means it never goes faster than the speed of light.
>> I wouldn't go so far as to state that the same rules of nature that
>> apply to the general universe remain unquestionably unaltered inside
>> an event horizon.
>
> They do in GR. That's what the phrase "the theory predicts that..." means.

Oh please...

On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 8:34:29 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 7:45:31 PM UTC-7, whodat wrote:
> > On 3/17/2023 9:09 PM, JanPB wrote:
> > > On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 6:26:01 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:33:30 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > >>> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:41:07 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:40:47 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > >>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:28:58 AM UTC-7, mitchr....@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:18:00 AM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 10:50:24 AM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:20:45 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:52:09 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-7, JanPB wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:58:20 PM UTC-7, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just as there is a speed limit there is a gravitational
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> acceleration limit. As GR's increasing speeds(accelerations)
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> still must obey fall below light speed..
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> They do. The speeds you mention are merely coordinate speeds which
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> can be arbitrary, in general.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Speed is speed jan and there is a speed limit defined by Gamma.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> False.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Gamma demonstrates the speed limit the atom must obey.
> > >>>>>>>>>> There are no BHs.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> You won't get anywhere with this by just making stuff up.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> BHs event horizons have always been know as the place
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> where falling reaches the speed of light
> > >>>>>>>>>>> False. In the Schwarzschild coordinates the falling speed
> > >>>>>>>>>>> tends to zero, not the speed of light.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Then light speed at zero hangs on the event horizon jan?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> and goes beyond
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> inside a BH by more gravity there.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Again, false. The speed always remains less than of light,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> that's what it means for the infalling trajectory to be timelike.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Just get off this horse, it won't get you anywhere anymore.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Jan
> > >>>>>>>>>> Is it false jan that Einstein never believed in the BH?
> > >>>>>>>>>> He didn't.
> > >>>>>>>>> Done.
> > >>>>>>>> That is what they all say where they have been undone...
> > >>>>>>>> There is no BH in reality.
> > >>>>>>> Again, you are changing the subject now.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> First of all, many (most?) physicists also think BH do not exist in
> > >>>>>> Andthere is proof that the theory is not real.
> > >>>>>>> the sense of a boundary of existence at a finite distance or finite
> > >>>>>>> time. This is most likely a consequence of the fact that GR
> > >>>>>>> ignores quantum phenomena.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> But again most(?) physicists think horizons do exist more or less
> > >>>>>>> as in the GR model. We'll see [pun intended].
> > >>>>>>>> It is just an overshoot in the
> > >>>>>>>> theory of maximum strength. Gravity strength has
> > >>>>>>>> a limit instead... by Gamma...
> > >>>>>>>> We are seeing those super mass look a likes....
> > >>>>>>>> BHs have already lost.
> > >>>>>>> You are again trying to smash open an open door.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> Jan
> > >>>>>> Gamma shows the universal speed limit that gravity and acceleration must obey.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> But coordinate speeds are not subject to this limitation.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> That is where you are wrong.
> > >>> No, I am 100% correct. And I gave you a proof already: when you turn
> > >>> your head 90 degrees to the left, the Andromeda galaxy moves 90
> > >>> degrees to the right at a coordinate speed far exceeding that of light.
> > >>>
> > >>> Coorfdinate speeds are merely accounting devices, they don't have
> > >>> immediate physical meaning (they do have a meaning after processing
> > >>> the data but they don't have a meaning as bare numbers which can
> > >>> be ARBITRARY).
> > >> Falling at the speed of light is real in BH theory jan.
> > >
> > > It's false. I have shown you the actual formulas.

science knows you are wrong jan...
It has known fall reaches light speed.
BHs are wrong.

Mitchell Raemsch
> > >
> > >> That is why BHs are wrong.
> > >
> > > If it's wrong, it's not for that reason. The "speed of light" crossing
> > > of the horizon is simply a measurement made by a distant observer
> > > on the outside using certain types of measuring devices. The actual
> > > object that's falling in does so along a trajectory that's always timelike.
> > > This means it never goes faster than the speed of light.
> > I wouldn't go so far as to state that the same rules of nature that
> > apply to the general universe remain unquestionably unaltered inside
> > an event horizon.
> They do in GR. That's what the phrase "the theory predicts that..." means..
>
> --
> Jan