The Big Plan for renewables is photovoltaics, charging
batteries, activated at night. The potential market for
batteries is enormous.

But why have I seen no one developing flywheels, for
the same residential mass market? Is there some
inherent deficiency?

--
Rich

On 08/11/2022 21:17, RichD wrote:
> The Big Plan for renewables is photovoltaics, charging
> batteries, activated at night. The potential market for
> batteries is enormous.
>
> But why have I seen no one developing flywheels, for
> the same residential mass market? Is there some
> inherent deficiency?

Yes. Although it can be done. I worked at an observatory where there was
a massive flywheel generator combo to provide enough energy to stow all
the telescopes to safe zenith position in the event of a mains failure.

The thing was a brute and had to be aligned so that it would not hit
anything within 2 miles if it ever broke free of its bearings.

Today they tend to go for batteries and an inverter with diesel backup,
but there was a period in the late 1960's when big fast flywheels were
the method of choice for emergency power in remote observatories.

Swiss have had gyro powered buses for a long while.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus

Edges of the gyro flywheels tend to be moving uncomfortably fast.

They have recently found favour for regenerative braking too.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 2022-11-08 22:46, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 08/11/2022 21:17, RichD wrote:
>> The Big Plan for renewables is photovoltaics, charging batteries,
>> activated at night. The potential market for batteries is
>> enormous.
>>
>> But why have I seen no one developing flywheels, for the same
>> residential mass market? Is there some inherent deficiency?
>
> Yes. Although it can be done. I worked at an observatory where there
> was a massive flywheel generator combo to provide enough energy to
> stow all the telescopes to safe zenith position in the event of a
> mains failure.
>
> The thing was a brute and had to be aligned so that it would not hit
> anything within 2 miles if it ever broke free of its bearings.
>
> Today they tend to go for batteries and an inverter with diesel
> backup, but there was a period in the late 1960's when big fast
> flywheels were the method of choice for emergency power in remote
> observatories.

That matches roughly what we had at the CERN Proton Synchrotron.
There was this massive motor-generator set to smooth over the
pulsing of the main bending magnets. These days, it's done with
six or seven shipping container-sized boxes full of capacitors
and a building full of power electronics.

Jeroen Belleman

On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 22:17:49 UTC+1, RichD wrote:
> The Big Plan for renewables is photovoltaics, charging
> batteries, activated at night. The potential market for
> batteries is enormous.
>
> But why have I seen no one developing flywheels, for
> the same residential mass market? Is there some
> inherent deficiency?
>
>
> --
> Rich
ancient, highly unreliable technology,
affected by gyroscope side-effect
abandoned 50 years ago

On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 08:17:49 UTC+11, RichD wrote:
> The Big Plan for renewables is photovoltaics, charging
> batteries, activated at night. The potential market for
> batteries is enormous.
>
> But why have I seen no one developing flywheels, for
> the same residential mass market? Is there some
> inherent deficiency?
>
I remember as a teenager reading about a "home-flywheel" concept in one of the local Electronics Magazines (must've been during the oil crisis of the 70s).

Several tonnes of mass in a sealed, evacuated enclosure with magnetic bearings. Required an excavation below the house the size of a basement (which are very rare in Australia). Needless to say none were ever marketed/built!.

Hah found it (ok 1980)!
<https://archive.org/details/EA1980/EA%201980-03%20March/page/n11/mode/2up?q=flywheel+energy>

--
Cheers,
Chris.

On 11/8/2022 2:46 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
> Yes. Although it can be done. I worked at an observatory where there was a
> massive flywheel generator combo to provide enough energy to stow all the
> telescopes to safe zenith position in the event of a mains failure.
>
> The thing was a brute and had to be aligned so that it would not hit anything
> within 2 miles if it ever broke free of its bearings.

That's the problem with storing kinetic energy in masses.

In a residential environment, it may be more effective (but not
necessarily efficient!) to store the energy in a safer -- though
still usable -- form. E.g., surplus electrical power can be used
to heat thermal masses to radiate their stored heat back into a
living space (in a cold/cool climate).

One place I worked made *ice* during the off-hours to ease
their air conditioning load during *peak* hours.

> Today they tend to go for batteries and an inverter with diesel backup, but
> there was a period in the late 1960's when big fast flywheels were the method
> of choice for emergency power in remote observatories.

IIRC, TPC uses small jet-powered gensets to power their CO's
during outages (though this information is sorely dated).
Hellaciously loud when it spins up!

> Swiss have had gyro powered buses for a long while.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus
>
> Edges of the gyro flywheels tend to be moving uncomfortably fast.

Ditto windmills. Always amazing when you see them "lumbering
along" at < 1 Hz -- and think about what the blade tips are
experiencing!

> They have recently found favour for regenerative braking too.

On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 21:46:17 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 08/11/2022 21:17, RichD wrote:
>> The Big Plan for renewables is photovoltaics, charging
>> batteries, activated at night. The potential market for
>> batteries is enormous.
>>
>> But why have I seen no one developing flywheels, for
>> the same residential mass market? Is there some
>> inherent deficiency?
>
>Yes. Although it can be done. I worked at an observatory where there was
>a massive flywheel generator combo to provide enough energy to stow all
>the telescopes to safe zenith position in the event of a mains failure.

How long did that take? Minutes? Batteries would be more efficient and
don't have to be kept spinning.

Flywheels are good for massive peak powers, like megagauss magnets and
rail guns. But not good for storing much energy.

>
>The thing was a brute and had to be aligned so that it would not hit
>anything within 2 miles if it ever broke free of its bearings.
>
>Today they tend to go for batteries and an inverter with diesel backup,
>but there was a period in the late 1960's when big fast flywheels were
>the method of choice for emergency power in remote observatories.
>
>Swiss have had gyro powered buses for a long while.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus
>
>Edges of the gyro flywheels tend to be moving uncomfortably fast.

And the radial stresses are necessarily near fly-apart levels.

>
>They have recently found favour for regenerative braking too.

On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 13:17:44 -0800 (PST), RichD
<r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

>The Big Plan for renewables is photovoltaics, charging
>batteries, activated at night. The potential market for
>batteries is enormous.
>
>But why have I seen no one developing flywheels, for
>the same residential mass market? Is there some
>inherent deficiency?

These guys have been doing that for a while now.
Not sure how well they have done lately though...

https://beaconpower.com/

boB

On 2022/11/08 2:04 p.m., Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 2022-11-08 22:46, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 08/11/2022 21:17, RichD wrote:
>>> The Big Plan for renewables is photovoltaics, charging batteries,
>>> activated at night.  The potential market for batteries is
>>> enormous.
>>>
>>> But why have I seen no one developing flywheels, for the same
>>> residential mass market?   Is there some inherent deficiency?
>>
>> Yes. Although it can be done. I worked at an observatory where there
>> was a massive flywheel generator combo to provide enough energy to
>> stow all the telescopes to safe zenith position in the event of a
>> mains failure.
>>
>> The thing was a brute and had to be aligned so that it would not hit
>> anything within 2 miles if it ever broke free of its bearings.
>>
>> Today they tend to go for batteries and an inverter with diesel
>> backup, but there was a period in the late 1960's when big fast
>> flywheels were the method of choice for emergency power in remote
>> observatories.
>
> That matches roughly what we had at the CERN Proton Synchrotron.
> There was this massive motor-generator set to smooth over the
> pulsing of the main bending magnets. These days, it's done with
> six or seven shipping container-sized boxes full of capacitors
> and a building full of power electronics.
>
> Jeroen Belleman
>
Did they have similar problems of desktop computer hard drives of that
era? "Shake & Bake!"
John :-#)#

On 09/11/2022 01:26, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 21:46:17 +0000, Martin Brown
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 08/11/2022 21:17, RichD wrote:
>>> The Big Plan for renewables is photovoltaics, charging
>>> batteries, activated at night. The potential market for
>>> batteries is enormous.
>>>
>>> But why have I seen no one developing flywheels, for
>>> the same residential mass market? Is there some
>>> inherent deficiency?
>>
>> Yes. Although it can be done. I worked at an observatory where there was
>> a massive flywheel generator combo to provide enough energy to stow all
>> the telescopes to safe zenith position in the event of a mains failure.
>
> How long did that take? Minutes? Batteries would be more efficient and
> don't have to be kept spinning.

Probably about a quarter of an hour. I don't ever recall seeing it do
that. It saved us from brownouts a lot more often and kept the computer
happy. A Marconi Myriad didn't like having its power removed suddenly.

> Flywheels are good for massive peak powers, like megagauss magnets and
> rail guns. But not good for storing much energy.

The flywheel also provided regular supply conditioning as its much more
common benefit. Most mains brownouts and glitches seldom lasted more
than a couple of minutes before power came back on again.

The people with the biggest consuming kit in the 1960's were Prof
Pippard's group studying Fermi surfaces with a 2MW magnet and a direct
line to the national grid to warn them when they were about to switch it
on (always late at night when electricity prices were cheaper)!

Superconducting magnets pretty much did away with that - out evolved.

>> The thing was a brute and had to be aligned so that it would not hit
>> anything within 2 miles if it ever broke free of its bearings.
>>
>> Today they tend to go for batteries and an inverter with diesel backup,
>> but there was a period in the late 1960's when big fast flywheels were
>> the method of choice for emergency power in remote observatories.
>>
>> Swiss have had gyro powered buses for a long while.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus
>>
>> Edges of the gyro flywheels tend to be moving uncomfortably fast.
>
> And the radial stresses are necessarily near fly-apart levels.

I think it was mostly lead inside a tungsten sleeve overwound with high
tensile steel a bit like a tyre would be. I never saw inside it. I was
warned that if it ever made funny noises to leave the building immediately.

The maximum safe spin rate was used as an exam question not long after
it was first brought into service (why waste a good calculation?).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

flywheel is an ancient fake

On 08.11.22 23:37, Chris wrote:
> On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 08:17:49 UTC+11, RichD wrote:
>> The Big Plan for renewables is photovoltaics, charging
>> batteries, activated at night. The potential market for
>> batteries is enormous.
>>
>> But why have I seen no one developing flywheels, for
>> the same residential mass market? Is there some
>> inherent deficiency?
>>
> I remember as a teenager reading about a "home-flywheel" concept in one of the local Electronics Magazines (must've been during the oil crisis of the 70s).
>
> Several tonnes of mass in a sealed, evacuated enclosure with magnetic bearings. Required an excavation below the house the size of a basement (which are very rare in Australia). Needless to say none were ever marketed/built!.
>
> Hah found it (ok 1980)!
> <https://archive.org/details/EA1980/EA%201980-03%20March/page/n11/mode/2up?q=flywheel+energy>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Chris.
>
Sorry, we are offline at the moment........

On 09.11.22 19:17, Sjouke Burry wrote:
> On 08.11.22 23:37, Chris wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 08:17:49 UTC+11, RichD wrote:
>>> The Big Plan for renewables is photovoltaics, charging
>>> batteries, activated at night. The potential market for
>>> batteries is enormous.
>>>
>>> But why have I seen no one developing flywheels, for
>>> the same residential mass market? Is there some
>>> inherent deficiency?
>>>
>> I remember as a teenager reading about a "home-flywheel" concept in one of the local Electronics Magazines (must've been during the oil crisis of the 70s).
>>
>> Several tonnes of mass in a sealed, evacuated enclosure with magnetic bearings. Required an excavation below the house the size of a basement (which are very rare in Australia). Needless to say none were ever marketed/built!.
>>
>> Hah found it (ok 1980)!
>> <https://archive.org/details/EA1980/EA%201980-03%20March/page/n11/mode/2up?q=flywheel+energy>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Chris.
>>
> Sorry, we are offline at the moment........
>
Ah!! back on the air!
downloading..... DONE.

On Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 17:30:44 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:

> The people with the biggest consuming kit in the 1960's were Prof
> Pippard's group studying Fermi surfaces with a 2MW magnet and a direct
> line to the national grid to warn them when they were about to switch it
> on (always late at night when electricity prices were cheaper)!

I went to his seminars in experimental physics. He was very keen on
gyroscopes!

John

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 21:46:17 +0000, Martin Brown
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 08/11/2022 21:17, RichD wrote:
>>> The Big Plan for renewables is photovoltaics, charging
>>> batteries, activated at night. The potential market for
>>> batteries is enormous.
>>>
>>> But why have I seen no one developing flywheels, for
>>> the same residential mass market? Is there some
>>> inherent deficiency?
>>
>>Yes. Although it can be done. I worked at an observatory where there was
>>a massive flywheel generator combo to provide enough energy to stow all
>>the telescopes to safe zenith position in the event of a mains failure.
>
> How long did that take? Minutes? Batteries would be more efficient and
> don't have to be kept spinning.
>
> Flywheels are good for massive peak powers, like megagauss magnets and
> rail guns. But not good for storing much energy.

Kinetic UPSes are still made for very short duration use, and are far
more reliable than stacks of lead acid batteries. Long term, they're
probably more efficient too as you can skip the double inversion step.

One use was for factory lighting. Losing a few cycles of power while
switching feeds or to a generator can shut off discharge lighting, causing
a 10 minute outage while the bulbs cool and restart. That's a no-go in a
large warehouse or industrial setting.