For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot easier than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.

General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over the past year.

General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that, the company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of one.

For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, or GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-gm-dealers-are-quietly-repairing-teslas-11669396882

On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot easier
> than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
>
> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over the
> past year.
>
> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that, the
> company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of one.
>
> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, or
> GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s complex
> repair network.

Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles. Just as
they were able to peddle diesels when that was /en vogue/

On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 3:43:00 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot easier
> > than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> >
> > General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over the
> > past year.
> >
> > General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that, the
> > company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of one.
> >
> > For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, or
> > GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s complex
> > repair network.
> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles.

Actually, it doesn't, other than the fact that 90+% of BEV cars are the same as ICE cars. Forget the motor and transmission, and the rest of an ICE vehicle is the same as an electric, minus the battery and electric motor. There's a bit of electronics in the BEV the ICE won't have. But that's all self diagnosed anyway, replace the part identified on the screen... in the car! The parts that are about the "electric car" very seldom break anyway..

I had an icing problem with an outside mirror while on the highway. I called Tesla support and they diagnosed it over the phone... over the "air" actually, through *their* cell phone link. It doesn't take any special equipment to run the tests. It takes some minimum amount of training. It's one step above the people you reach for support on your toaster oven at the 800 number.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:43:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot easier
> > than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> >
> > General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over the
> > past year.
> >
> > General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that, the
> > company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of one.
> >
> > For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, or
> > GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s complex
> > repair network.
> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles. Just as
> they were able to peddle diesels when that was /en vogue/

Of course they do, and every bit of Tesla has been reverse engineered, in the off chance they might have designed something useful. Give it time and NAPA will be selling "rebuilt" Tesla battery packs for $199.00.

tirsdag den 29. november 2022 kl. 09.07.23 UTC+1 skrev Ricky:
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 3:43:00 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> > On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot easier
> > > than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> > >
> > > General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over the
> > > past year.
> > >
> > > General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that, the
> > > company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of one.
> > >
> > > For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, or
> > > GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s complex
> > > repair network.
> > Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> > and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles.
> Actually, it doesn't, other than the fact that 90+% of BEV cars are the same as ICE cars. Forget the motor and transmission, and the rest of an ICE vehicle is the same as an electric, minus the battery and electric motor. There's a bit of electronics in the BEV the ICE won't have. But that's all self diagnosed anyway, replace the part identified on the screen... in the car! The parts that are about the "electric car" very seldom break anyway.
>

quite a few small companies that take old classic cars and put a battery and a Tesla motor/transmission in
to make it usable as a daily driver

On 11/29/2022 3:07 AM, Ricky wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 3:43:00 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot easier
>>> than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
>>>
>>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over the
>>> past year.
>>>
>>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that, the
>>> company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of one.
>>>
>>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, or
>>> GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s complex
>>> repair network.
>> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
>> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles.
>
> Actually, it doesn't, other than the fact that 90+% of BEV cars are the same as ICE cars. Forget the motor and transmission, and the rest of an ICE vehicle is the same as an electric, minus the battery and electric motor. There's a bit of electronics in the BEV the ICE won't have. But that's all self diagnosed anyway, replace the part identified on the screen... in the car! The parts that are about the "electric car" very seldom break anyway.
>
> I had an icing problem with an outside mirror while on the highway. I called Tesla support and they diagnosed it over the phone... over the "air" actually, through *their* cell phone link. It doesn't take any special equipment to run the tests. It takes some minimum amount of training. It's one step above the people you reach for support on your toaster oven at the 800 number.
>
>

The question is what they're going to a frickin' dealer for if it's not
directly related to the battery or electric powertrain components.

I definitely don't take my Volt to the GM dealer for a brake job or
coolant change! The local shop down the street can do that stuff fine.

On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:36:48 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> On 11/29/2022 3:07 AM, Ricky wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 3:43:00 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot easier
> >>> than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> >>>
> >>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over the
> >>> past year.
> >>>
> >>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that, the
> >>> company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of one.
> >>>
> >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, or
> >>> GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s complex
> >>> repair network.
> >> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> >> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles.
> >
> > Actually, it doesn't, other than the fact that 90+% of BEV cars are the same as ICE cars. Forget the motor and transmission, and the rest of an ICE vehicle is the same as an electric, minus the battery and electric motor. There's a bit of electronics in the BEV the ICE won't have. But that's all self diagnosed anyway, replace the part identified on the screen... in the car! The parts that are about the "electric car" very seldom break anyway.
> >
> > I had an icing problem with an outside mirror while on the highway. I called Tesla support and they diagnosed it over the phone... over the "air" actually, through *their* cell phone link. It doesn't take any special equipment to run the tests. It takes some minimum amount of training. It's one step above the people you reach for support on your toaster oven at the 800 number.
> >
> >
> The question is what they're going to a frickin' dealer for if it's not
> directly related to the battery or electric powertrain components.
>
> I definitely don't take my Volt to the GM dealer for a brake job or
> coolant change! The local shop down the street can do that stuff fine.

Many local mechanics won't touch EV at all. I tried to get someone to help bring down my battery for me to work on. They just refused to touch it.

GM probably have some certified EV mechanics.

On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 3:40:21 PM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:36:48 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> > On 11/29/2022 3:07 AM, Ricky wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 3:43:00 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> > >> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot easier
> > >>> than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> > >>>
> > >>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over the
> > >>> past year.
> > >>>
> > >>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that, the
> > >>> company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of one.
> > >>>
> > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, or
> > >>> GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s complex
> > >>> repair network.
> > >> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> > >> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles.
> > >
> > > Actually, it doesn't, other than the fact that 90+% of BEV cars are the same as ICE cars. Forget the motor and transmission, and the rest of an ICE vehicle is the same as an electric, minus the battery and electric motor. There's a bit of electronics in the BEV the ICE won't have. But that's all self diagnosed anyway, replace the part identified on the screen... in the car! The parts that are about the "electric car" very seldom break anyway.
> > >
> > > I had an icing problem with an outside mirror while on the highway. I called Tesla support and they diagnosed it over the phone... over the "air" actually, through *their* cell phone link. It doesn't take any special equipment to run the tests. It takes some minimum amount of training. It's one step above the people you reach for support on your toaster oven at the 800 number.
> > >
> > >
> > The question is what they're going to a frickin' dealer for if it's not
> > directly related to the battery or electric powertrain components.
> >
> > I definitely don't take my Volt to the GM dealer for a brake job or
> > coolant change! The local shop down the street can do that stuff fine.
> Many local mechanics won't touch EV at all. I tried to get someone to help bring down my battery for me to work on. They just refused to touch it.
>
> GM probably have some certified EV mechanics.

Getting Tesla's repaired has been a bone of contention for some time now:
https://www.sfgate.com/cars/article/tesla-repair-wait-time-complaints-electric-car-13796037.php
This, alone, would scare me off from owning a Tesla.

On 11/29/2022 12:39 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:43:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
>> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot
>>> easier than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
>>>
>>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over
>>> the past year.
>>>
>>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that,
>>> the company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of
>>> one.
>>>
>>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet,
>>> or GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s
>>> complex repair network.
>> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
>> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles. Just as they
>> were able to peddle diesels when that was /en vogue/
>
> Of course they do, and every bit of Tesla has been reverse engineered, in
> the off chance they might have designed something useful. Give it time and
> NAPA will be selling "rebuilt" Tesla battery packs for $199.00.

I don't imagine they are interested in any of the parts that they
don't already have (i.e., all of the hi-tech stuff SHORT of the
"self-driving-feature-that-doesn't-work" that they already have
and actually *does* work).

They'll put price pressure on each other (and Tesla) to make electric
vehicles affordable and commodity products.

Batteries? <shrug> Jury's out.

On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 7:39:50 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
> On 11/29/2022 12:39 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:43:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot
> >>> easier than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> >>>
> >>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over
> >>> the past year.
> >>>
> >>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that,
> >>> the company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of
> >>> one.
> >>>
> >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet,
> >>> or GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s
> >>> complex repair network.
> >> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> >> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles. Just as they
> >> were able to peddle diesels when that was /en vogue/
> >
> > Of course they do, and every bit of Tesla has been reverse engineered, in
> > the off chance they might have designed something useful. Give it time and
> > NAPA will be selling "rebuilt" Tesla battery packs for $199.00.
> I don't imagine they are interested in any of the parts that they
> don't already have (i.e., all of the hi-tech stuff SHORT of the
> "self-driving-feature-that-doesn't-work" that they already have
> and actually *does* work).
>
> They'll put price pressure on each other (and Tesla) to make electric
> vehicles affordable and commodity products.
>
> Batteries? <shrug> Jury's out.

Main work in fixing batteries is identifying and swapping out bad or weak cells. You don't really need another pack to fix them, just a small inventory of good cells.

It's lots of labor work. If they went through the trouble of unmounting and disassembling the battery packs, it's no big deal to fix the packs themselves. So, i don't see why NAPA or other auto shops would stock them.

On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 12:01:05 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 7:39:50 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
> > On 11/29/2022 12:39 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:43:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> > >> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot
> > >>> easier than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> > >>>
> > >>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over
> > >>> the past year.
> > >>>
> > >>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that,
> > >>> the company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of
> > >>> one.
> > >>>
> > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet,
> > >>> or GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s
> > >>> complex repair network.
> > >> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> > >> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles. Just as they
> > >> were able to peddle diesels when that was /en vogue/
> > >
> > > Of course they do, and every bit of Tesla has been reverse engineered, in
> > > the off chance they might have designed something useful. Give it time and
> > > NAPA will be selling "rebuilt" Tesla battery packs for $199.00.
> > I don't imagine they are interested in any of the parts that they
> > don't already have (i.e., all of the hi-tech stuff SHORT of the
> > "self-driving-feature-that-doesn't-work" that they already have
> > and actually *does* work).
> >
> > They'll put price pressure on each other (and Tesla) to make electric
> > vehicles affordable and commodity products.
> >
> > Batteries? <shrug> Jury's out.
> Main work in fixing batteries is identifying and swapping out bad or weak cells. You don't really need another pack to fix them, just a small inventory of good cells.
>
> It's lots of labor work. If they went through the trouble of unmounting and disassembling the battery packs, it's no big deal to fix the packs themselves. So, i don't see why NAPA or other auto shops would stock them.

It's probably a fool's errand to "repair" battery packs. Cells are going to be used the same amount and like many things, they are going to wear not so unevenly. The real issue with batteries, is not failing, but losing capacity. That impacts every cell and fixing a few lame cells isn't going to do much.

It is a lot of work. Much more practical to use the packs in other applications where they don't need to worry with capacity vs. weight. Storage for home energy projects is a good use.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 11/29/2022 9:01 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 7:39:50 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
>> On 11/29/2022 12:39 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:43:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a
>>>>> lot easier than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
>>>>>
>>>>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas
>>>>> over the past year.
>>>>>
>>>>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many
>>>>> that, the company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile
>>>>> drive of one.
>>>>>
>>>>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac,
>>>>> Chevrolet, or GMC dealership would be far simpler than working
>>>>> through Tesla’s complex repair network.
>>>> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the
>>>> technology and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric
>>>> vehicles. Just as they were able to peddle diesels when that was /en
>>>> vogue/
>>>
>>> Of course they do, and every bit of Tesla has been reverse engineered,
>>> in the off chance they might have designed something useful. Give it
>>> time and NAPA will be selling "rebuilt" Tesla battery packs for
>>> $199.00.
>> I don't imagine they are interested in any of the parts that they don't
>> already have (i.e., all of the hi-tech stuff SHORT of the
>> "self-driving-feature-that-doesn't-work" that they already have and
>> actually *does* work).
>>
>> They'll put price pressure on each other (and Tesla) to make electric
>> vehicles affordable and commodity products.
>>
>> Batteries? <shrug> Jury's out.
>
> Main work in fixing batteries is identifying and swapping out bad or weak
> cells. You don't really need another pack to fix them, just a small
> inventory of good cells.
>
> It's lots of labor work. If they went through the trouble of unmounting and
> disassembling the battery packs, it's no big deal to fix the packs
> themselves. So, i don't see why NAPA or other auto shops would stock them.

I suspect we're going to see alternatives to overnight charging
become the norm. There are just too many people who don't (and
won't!) have a "home charger" yet currently benefit from having
an automobile.

Because they can "refill it" in a few minutes at a wide variety
of places (gas stations)

Consider three classes of people:
- homeowners
- renters (apartment and otherwise)
- disadvantaged (a subclass of renters)

Will your landlord provide charging facilities? Or, will the
lack of suitable rental properties WITH chargers further
disenfranchise those folks?

If you live in a "Towering Inferno" (rent/lease/condo), will the
site upgrade its electrical service to support the charging
of a vehicle per housing unit? Hundreds of units??

Will your employer provide charging stations "in the parking lot"
(one per space?) so the charging that you couldn't do overnight
(see above) can be accomplished at work, instead?

What if your landlord/employer doesn't *have* parking spaces
that "belong" to him? E.g., if you work in retail, will the
parking lot shared by employees and customers be partitioned
top provide charging facilities for employees, excluding
customers? Will the curbside parking that a "downtown"
restaurant relies on for its customers be fitted with chargers
that the employees also forced to park on the street can use?

Will hotels have to provide charging facilities for each
unit? Or, will you have to leave your car elsewhere and
"hike" to your hotel?

Will chargers become profit centers available to anyone with
a credit card? Will it create yet another class of haves and
havenots?

People have become used to being able to "acquire energy" from a
variety of sources QUICKLY -- *none* being their own homes! -- so
they can leave their vehicle wherever it is convenient, for them.
Without concern for whether or not it will be able to recharge
in that location.

On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 5:51:25 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> On 11/29/2022 9:01 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 7:39:50 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 11/29/2022 12:39 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:43:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> >>>> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>>>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a
> >>>>> lot easier than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas
> >>>>> over the past year.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many
> >>>>> that, the company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile
> >>>>> drive of one.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac,
> >>>>> Chevrolet, or GMC dealership would be far simpler than working
> >>>>> through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> >>>> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the
> >>>> technology and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric
> >>>> vehicles. Just as they were able to peddle diesels when that was /en
> >>>> vogue/
> >>>
> >>> Of course they do, and every bit of Tesla has been reverse engineered,
> >>> in the off chance they might have designed something useful. Give it
> >>> time and NAPA will be selling "rebuilt" Tesla battery packs for
> >>> $199.00.
> >> I don't imagine they are interested in any of the parts that they don't
> >> already have (i.e., all of the hi-tech stuff SHORT of the
> >> "self-driving-feature-that-doesn't-work" that they already have and
> >> actually *does* work).
> >>
> >> They'll put price pressure on each other (and Tesla) to make electric
> >> vehicles affordable and commodity products.
> >>
> >> Batteries? <shrug> Jury's out.
> >
> > Main work in fixing batteries is identifying and swapping out bad or weak
> > cells. You don't really need another pack to fix them, just a small
> > inventory of good cells.
> >
> > It's lots of labor work. If they went through the trouble of unmounting and
> > disassembling the battery packs, it's no big deal to fix the packs
> > themselves. So, i don't see why NAPA or other auto shops would stock them.
> I suspect we're going to see alternatives to overnight charging
> become the norm. There are just too many people who don't (and
> won't!) have a "home charger" yet currently benefit from having
> an automobile.

"Home" charging will be available pretty much anywhere you park. If you live in an apartment, the apartment owner will provide charging with the parking. Why? Because in 15 to 20 years, they won't have a choice, everyone will be driving BEVs, because *they* won't have a choice. Not only will automakers not be building ICE, gas supplies will dwindle to near nothing and gas stations will largely be closed. So with apartment dwellers driving BEVs, they will move into apartments that have charging facilities. It's no different from when apartments didn't have cable TV, or Internet.

If the apartments don't offer parking, street parking will have charging. Even if it's on the slow side, it doesn't take much to charge up the average 40 miles a day. That's 10 hours or less on a 120V, 15A circuit.

> Because they can "refill it" in a few minutes at a wide variety
> of places (gas stations)

If you mean swapping battery packs, not going to happen for many reasons that have all been discussed here before.

> Consider three classes of people:
> - homeowners
> - renters (apartment and otherwise)
> - disadvantaged (a subclass of renters)
>
> Will your landlord provide charging facilities? Or, will the
> lack of suitable rental properties WITH chargers further
> disenfranchise those folks?

The only apartment owners who will install charging, are those who want to be renting apartments in 20 years. The rest can rent to people who take the bus.

> If you live in a "Towering Inferno" (rent/lease/condo), will the
> site upgrade its electrical service to support the charging
> of a vehicle per housing unit? Hundreds of units??

People wave their arms in the air and cry, "The horror!" when discussing adding dryer circuits to apartment buildings. It gets old after a while. How did we install cable TV in all those buildings downtown? That must have been a massive project! Yes, it was, we did, and now we don't give it a second thought.

How about getting the Internet without using dialup? They installed miles and miles of cable to make that happen and wired apartment buildings, every apartment! It's unimaginable, but they did it.

Then they UPGRADED the Internet connections to fiber! How on earth did they manage that??? It's a mystery like the construction of the pyramids.

> Will your employer provide charging stations "in the parking lot"
> (one per space?) so the charging that you couldn't do overnight
> (see above) can be accomplished at work, instead?

Only if they want to attract the better employees. Hey, it's so much cheaper than healthcare!

> What if your landlord/employer doesn't *have* parking spaces
> that "belong" to him? E.g., if you work in retail, will the
> parking lot shared by employees and customers be partitioned
> top provide charging facilities for employees, excluding
> customers? Will the curbside parking that a "downtown"
> restaurant relies on for its customers be fitted with chargers
> that the employees also forced to park on the street can use?

No, everyone is going to bury their heads in the sand and pretend no one needs charging. Then the problem will go away, because people will just walk..

> Will hotels have to provide charging facilities for each
> unit? Or, will you have to leave your car elsewhere and
> "hike" to your hotel?
>
> Will chargers become profit centers available to anyone with
> a credit card? Will it create yet another class of haves and
> havenots?
>
> People have become used to being able to "acquire energy" from a
> variety of sources QUICKLY -- *none* being their own homes! -- so
> they can leave their vehicle wherever it is convenient, for them.
> Without concern for whether or not it will be able to recharge
> in that location.

It's going to be impossible to charge BEVs. It's an unfathomable problem that defies solutions.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 8:01:05 PM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 7:39:50 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
> > On 11/29/2022 12:39 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:43:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> > >> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot
> > >>> easier than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> > >>>
> > >>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over
> > >>> the past year.
> > >>>
> > >>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that,
> > >>> the company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of
> > >>> one.
> > >>>
> > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet,
> > >>> or GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s
> > >>> complex repair network.
> > >> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> > >> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles. Just as they
> > >> were able to peddle diesels when that was /en vogue/
> > >
> > > Of course they do, and every bit of Tesla has been reverse engineered, in
> > > the off chance they might have designed something useful. Give it time and
> > > NAPA will be selling "rebuilt" Tesla battery packs for $199.00.
> > I don't imagine they are interested in any of the parts that they
> > don't already have (i.e., all of the hi-tech stuff SHORT of the
> > "self-driving-feature-that-doesn't-work" that they already have
> > and actually *does* work).
> >
> > They'll put price pressure on each other (and Tesla) to make electric
> > vehicles affordable and commodity products.
> >
> > Batteries? <shrug> Jury's out.
> Main work in fixing batteries is identifying and swapping out bad or weak cells. You don't really need another pack to fix them, just a small inventory of good cells.
>
> It's lots of labor work. If they went through the trouble of unmounting and disassembling the battery packs, it's no big deal to fix the packs themselves. So, i don't see why NAPA or other auto shops would stock them.

You can replace a bad Tesla battery module, but not an individual cell. A bad cell blows a fuse in the module assembly, isolating that cell. The module has bus bars spot welded to each of the cells.

On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 5:55:09 PM UTC-8, Flyguy wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 8:01:05 PM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 7:39:50 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
> > > On 11/29/2022 12:39 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:43:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> > > >> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot
> > > >>> easier than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over
> > > >>> the past year.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that,
> > > >>> the company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of
> > > >>> one.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet,
> > > >>> or GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s
> > > >>> complex repair network.
> > > >> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> > > >> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles. Just as they
> > > >> were able to peddle diesels when that was /en vogue/
> > > >
> > > > Of course they do, and every bit of Tesla has been reverse engineered, in
> > > > the off chance they might have designed something useful. Give it time and
> > > > NAPA will be selling "rebuilt" Tesla battery packs for $199.00.
> > > I don't imagine they are interested in any of the parts that they
> > > don't already have (i.e., all of the hi-tech stuff SHORT of the
> > > "self-driving-feature-that-doesn't-work" that they already have
> > > and actually *does* work).
> > >
> > > They'll put price pressure on each other (and Tesla) to make electric
> > > vehicles affordable and commodity products.
> > >
> > > Batteries? <shrug> Jury's out.
> > Main work in fixing batteries is identifying and swapping out bad or weak cells. You don't really need another pack to fix them, just a small inventory of good cells.
> >
> > It's lots of labor work. If they went through the trouble of unmounting and disassembling the battery packs, it's no big deal to fix the packs themselves. So, i don't see why NAPA or other auto shops would stock them.
> You can replace a bad Tesla battery module, but not an individual cell. A bad cell blows a fuse in the module assembly, isolating that cell. The module has bus bars spot welded to each of the cells.

1865 or 2170 bad cells don't always blow the fuse. Sometimes they turn into heater and drain down all the parallel cells. Or if they get overcharged even with a small current and get killed. A blown fuse would be easy to fix. You can replace and reweld a new cell. It might not like perfect, but it works.

On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 9:34:46 PM UTC-8, Ricky wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 12:01:05 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 7:39:50 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
> > > On 11/29/2022 12:39 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:43:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> > > >> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot
> > > >>> easier than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over
> > > >>> the past year.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that,
> > > >>> the company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of
> > > >>> one.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet,
> > > >>> or GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s
> > > >>> complex repair network.
> > > >> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> > > >> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles. Just as they
> > > >> were able to peddle diesels when that was /en vogue/
> > > >
> > > > Of course they do, and every bit of Tesla has been reverse engineered, in
> > > > the off chance they might have designed something useful. Give it time and
> > > > NAPA will be selling "rebuilt" Tesla battery packs for $199.00.
> > > I don't imagine they are interested in any of the parts that they
> > > don't already have (i.e., all of the hi-tech stuff SHORT of the
> > > "self-driving-feature-that-doesn't-work" that they already have
> > > and actually *does* work).
> > >
> > > They'll put price pressure on each other (and Tesla) to make electric
> > > vehicles affordable and commodity products.
> > >
> > > Batteries? <shrug> Jury's out.
> > Main work in fixing batteries is identifying and swapping out bad or weak cells. You don't really need another pack to fix them, just a small inventory of good cells.
> >
> > It's lots of labor work. If they went through the trouble of unmounting and disassembling the battery packs, it's no big deal to fix the packs themselves. So, i don't see why NAPA or other auto shops would stock them.
> It's probably a fool's errand to "repair" battery packs. Cells are going to be used the same amount and like many things, they are going to wear not so unevenly. The real issue with batteries, is not failing, but losing capacity. That impacts every cell and fixing a few lame cells isn't going to do much.

I am such a fool. I would buy all 11,000 defective modules (assuming GM is fixing at least one module per car) if i could. I will pay $99 each. There were some discussions of manufacturing defects (metal fragments) affecting small number of cells. Tesla modules are 24V, 6 banks of 64 cells. If one is bad, it will affect the entire bank. If you detect it soon enough, you might be able to save the other 63 cells. If not, at least the other 5 banks. The bms can detect and alarm weak bank (cell).

My modules are 16V, 4 banks of 32 cells to conform to the Leaf module size (11"x8"x3").

On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 6:54:59 PM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 5:55:09 PM UTC-8, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 8:01:05 PM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 7:39:50 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
> > > > On 11/29/2022 12:39 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:43:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> > > > >> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot
> > > > >>> easier than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over
> > > > >>> the past year.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that,
> > > > >>> the company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of
> > > > >>> one.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet,
> > > > >>> or GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s
> > > > >>> complex repair network.
> > > > >> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> > > > >> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles. Just as they
> > > > >> were able to peddle diesels when that was /en vogue/
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course they do, and every bit of Tesla has been reverse engineered, in
> > > > > the off chance they might have designed something useful. Give it time and
> > > > > NAPA will be selling "rebuilt" Tesla battery packs for $199.00.
> > > > I don't imagine they are interested in any of the parts that they
> > > > don't already have (i.e., all of the hi-tech stuff SHORT of the
> > > > "self-driving-feature-that-doesn't-work" that they already have
> > > > and actually *does* work).
> > > >
> > > > They'll put price pressure on each other (and Tesla) to make electric
> > > > vehicles affordable and commodity products.
> > > >
> > > > Batteries? <shrug> Jury's out.
> > > Main work in fixing batteries is identifying and swapping out bad or weak cells. You don't really need another pack to fix them, just a small inventory of good cells.
> > >
> > > It's lots of labor work. If they went through the trouble of unmounting and disassembling the battery packs, it's no big deal to fix the packs themselves. So, i don't see why NAPA or other auto shops would stock them.
> > You can replace a bad Tesla battery module, but not an individual cell. A bad cell blows a fuse in the module assembly, isolating that cell. The module has bus bars spot welded to each of the cells.
> 1865 or 2170 bad cells don't always blow the fuse. Sometimes they turn into heater and drain down all the parallel cells. Or if they get overcharged even with a small current and get killed. A blown fuse would be easy to fix. You can replace and reweld a new cell. It might not like perfect, but it works.

When you say "you" who do you mean? Certainly not Tesla, who will want to bill you for an entirely new battery.

On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 10:12:33 PM UTC-8, Flyguy wrote:
> On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 6:54:59 PM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 5:55:09 PM UTC-8, Flyguy wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 8:01:05 PM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 7:39:50 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > On 11/29/2022 12:39 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:43:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > >> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot
> > > > > >>> easier than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over
> > > > > >>> the past year.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that,
> > > > > >>> the company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of
> > > > > >>> one.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet,
> > > > > >>> or GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s
> > > > > >>> complex repair network.
> > > > > >> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> > > > > >> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles. Just as they
> > > > > >> were able to peddle diesels when that was /en vogue/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Of course they do, and every bit of Tesla has been reverse engineered, in
> > > > > > the off chance they might have designed something useful. Give it time and
> > > > > > NAPA will be selling "rebuilt" Tesla battery packs for $199.00.
> > > > > I don't imagine they are interested in any of the parts that they
> > > > > don't already have (i.e., all of the hi-tech stuff SHORT of the
> > > > > "self-driving-feature-that-doesn't-work" that they already have
> > > > > and actually *does* work).
> > > > >
> > > > > They'll put price pressure on each other (and Tesla) to make electric
> > > > > vehicles affordable and commodity products.
> > > > >
> > > > > Batteries? <shrug> Jury's out.
> > > > Main work in fixing batteries is identifying and swapping out bad or weak cells. You don't really need another pack to fix them, just a small inventory of good cells.
> > > >
> > > > It's lots of labor work. If they went through the trouble of unmounting and disassembling the battery packs, it's no big deal to fix the packs themselves. So, i don't see why NAPA or other auto shops would stock them.
> > > You can replace a bad Tesla battery module, but not an individual cell. A bad cell blows a fuse in the module assembly, isolating that cell. The module has bus bars spot welded to each of the cells.
> > 1865 or 2170 bad cells don't always blow the fuse. Sometimes they turn into heater and drain down all the parallel cells. Or if they get overcharged even with a small current and get killed. A blown fuse would be easy to fix. You can replace and reweld a new cell. It might not like perfect, but it works.
> When you say "you" who do you mean? Certainly not Tesla, who will want to bill you for an entirely new battery.

(You) I or some independent service shops will do it, as well as GM.

That's why 11000 of them went to GM. Tesla charges over $11000 to fix the production problem that they never acknowledged. It only affect a small number (11000) of Teslas.

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 10:54:57 AM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 10:12:33 PM UTC-8, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 6:54:59 PM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 5:55:09 PM UTC-8, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 8:01:05 PM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 7:39:50 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > > On 11/29/2022 12:39 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 2:43:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > > >> On 11/28/2022 8:24 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick dealership is a lot
> > > > > > >>> easier than working through Tesla’s complex repair network.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> General Motors dealerships have repaired more than 11,000 Teslas over
> > > > > > >>> the past year.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> General Motors has a network of thousands of dealerships – so many that,
> > > > > > >>> the company estimates, 90% of Americans live within a 10-mile drive of
> > > > > > >>> one.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> For some Tesla owners, getting to a nearby Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet,
> > > > > > >>> or GMC dealership would be far simpler than working through Tesla’s
> > > > > > >>> complex repair network.
> > > > > > >> Which suggests the major automakers already have much of the technology
> > > > > > >> and skillsets necessary to switch-over to electric vehicles. Just as they
> > > > > > >> were able to peddle diesels when that was /en vogue/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of course they do, and every bit of Tesla has been reverse engineered, in
> > > > > > > the off chance they might have designed something useful. Give it time and
> > > > > > > NAPA will be selling "rebuilt" Tesla battery packs for $199.00.
> > > > > > I don't imagine they are interested in any of the parts that they
> > > > > > don't already have (i.e., all of the hi-tech stuff SHORT of the
> > > > > > "self-driving-feature-that-doesn't-work" that they already have
> > > > > > and actually *does* work).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They'll put price pressure on each other (and Tesla) to make electric
> > > > > > vehicles affordable and commodity products.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Batteries? <shrug> Jury's out.
> > > > > Main work in fixing batteries is identifying and swapping out bad or weak cells. You don't really need another pack to fix them, just a small inventory of good cells.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's lots of labor work. If they went through the trouble of unmounting and disassembling the battery packs, it's no big deal to fix the packs themselves. So, i don't see why NAPA or other auto shops would stock them.
> > > > You can replace a bad Tesla battery module, but not an individual cell. A bad cell blows a fuse in the module assembly, isolating that cell. The module has bus bars spot welded to each of the cells.
> > > 1865 or 2170 bad cells don't always blow the fuse. Sometimes they turn into heater and drain down all the parallel cells. Or if they get overcharged even with a small current and get killed. A blown fuse would be easy to fix. You can replace and reweld a new cell. It might not like perfect, but it works.
> > When you say "you" who do you mean? Certainly not Tesla, who will want to bill you for an entirely new battery.
> (You) I or some independent service shops will do it, as well as GM.
>
> That's why 11000 of them went to GM. Tesla charges over $11000 to fix the production problem that they never acknowledged. It only affect a small number (11000) of Teslas.

The problem with getting ANYTHING fixed by Tesla is that their approved repair shops, and the CERTIFIED techs in those shops, are SO BACKLOGGED that repairs can take in excess of SIX MONTHS.