Don Y wrote:
> On 12/13/2022 7:22 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
>> It's preposterous. And I say that as a primarily software
>> person.
>
> This is no different than all the web-based services and
> "subscription" services that have been replacing "licensed"
> seats.
>
> The selling point is that you can fix/update the software
> much easier than having to push updates to the end user.
> But, the flip side is the user never knows what he is using
> from one day to the next.
>

But how is that even a feature? I mean - you'll have lots of IT
seats in a company dependent on that but I at least would
very much prefer not to have to deal with it.

I have a laptop I use very rarely and it might spend more time
applying updates than actually being used.

And never mind the "security" software at work. It can render
a machine paralyzed for long stretches of time. Fine by me;
in the end I'm working by the hour but nobody's seeing this?

> Can you even find a "version number" on a web-based service's
> site?  If Digikey errs, how do you report the error?
>
>   "I was using the version you had in place at 5:37PM on 11 Dec
>    when I observed the problem"
>
>   "Well, we can't reproduce it..."
>
>   "Are you using the 5:37PM 11 Dec version in your attempts?"
>
>   "No, it's now 8:14AM Dec 13.  We no longer have that available
>    on our server..."
>
> I.e., why bother reporting a problem if there's no way to
> troubleshoot it?
>

If we look at the incentives, it's most likely that people
behave this way to maintain employment.

They're not wrong....

> Or, products with lifespans too short to remain "current"
> long enough to warrant an upgrade!  (How many upgrades in
> your smart TV?)
>

I couldn't necessarily even count them. I finally gave up
on finding a "dumb" tv and the last one is "smart". It's not
too bad but one of these days it's gonna fail.

>> There are great ways to construct software to reduce the margin of
>> error rapidly. These grew up around telecoms. Basically,
>> do what FPGA people do.
>
> The number one prerequisite is WANTING to produce a quality
> product.  And, knowing exactly what that product is intended to be.
>

Is that too much to ask?

>> Nobody is interested. You really do have the problem
>> of what to do with staff once they're done and the "lurn
>> to code" method of economic engagement is too loud to
>> overcome.
>
> It's the mentality that leads to fast food restaurants putting
> *pictures* of the menu items on the keys of the cash register
> instead of requiring employees to be able to type in a numeric
> value.
>

I dunno - watch waitstaff at chain restaurants ( the one notch
above fast food ) trying to run the POS systems. They're
terrible; IMO the NCR platform was primarily the cause of this.

I go a couple places that still use a mostly-mechanical
cash register. It's much faster.

> Or, giving you a handful of change that the *machine* dispensed
> without even knowing if it is marginally correct.
>
> The trend in all businesses is to lower the cost of the
> providers -- nurses doing the work of doctors, progrmmers
> doing the work of engineers/system designers, etc.
>

And that's fine if the software that results is any good.
That's how it's "supposed" to be. It's just that the value
created doing that is not used to keep the software from
messing things up.

>> "I know he can get the job, but can he do the job.
>> I know he can get the job, but can he do the job. "  :8
>> - Mr Hatari, "Joe Vs. the Volcano."
>>
>> ( :8 means "repeat infinitely" )
>
>
>

--
Les Cargill

On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 5:22:38 PM UTC-5, Les Cargill wrote:
> Don Y wrote:
> >
> > It's the mentality that leads to fast food restaurants putting
> > *pictures* of the menu items on the keys of the cash register
> > instead of requiring employees to be able to type in a numeric
> > value.
> >
> I dunno - watch waitstaff at chain restaurants ( the one notch
> above fast food ) trying to run the POS systems. They're
> terrible; IMO the NCR platform was primarily the cause of this.
>
> I go a couple places that still use a mostly-mechanical
> cash register. It's much faster.

Faster than what? You are comparing apples and oranges. The mechanical register tracks your cash receipts. The POS systems are part of a complete accounting system that tracks the entire operation.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 12/17/2022 3:22 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
> Don Y wrote:
>> On 12/13/2022 7:22 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
>>> It's preposterous. And I say that as a primarily software
>>> person.
>>
>> This is no different than all the web-based services and
>> "subscription" services that have been replacing "licensed"
>> seats.
>>
>> The selling point is that you can fix/update the software
>> much easier than having to push updates to the end user.
>> But, the flip side is the user never knows what he is using
>> from one day to the next.
>
> But how is that even a feature? I mean - you'll have lots of IT
> seats in a company dependent on that but I at least would
> very much prefer not to have to deal with it.

Server side app deployment has the advantage of ensuring that
every user (as of a particular instance in time) will "see" the
same codebase. There's no need to worry about users who may not
have updated their *local* copy of an app.

This is great if you need to make *little* changes (typos, graphics,
etc.) that don't meaningfully alter the operation or functionality.
But, when the user ends up "surprised" by your changes, it's a source
of frustration and error.

*Local* apps give the user control over the look and function
of the app. But, run the risk of being out-of-date -- esp if
there is a lot of "churn" in the app (why does a banking app
need to significantly change? are they going to allow you
to view your balances/transactions in a variety of currencies??)

Which leads to the most "job security" is debatable. Pushing
updates (and dealing with complaints from users who are using
out-of-date apps) has a recurring cost as does churning the
server-side offering.

> I have a laptop I use very rarely and it might spend more time
> applying updates than actually being used.

I've adopted a simple strategy with my (only-used-when-traveling)
laptops: I create a "current" image on a hidden partition
and restore that periodically -- so, any potential corruption
(malware) is discarded.

But, I also only use the laptops for http/smtp access and don't
keep anything precious on them.

> And never mind the "security" software at work. It can render
> a machine paralyzed for long stretches of time. Fine by me;
> in the end I'm working by the hour but nobody's seeing this?

No one pays me for "lost productivity". So, I manage "security"
by running machines air-gapped and with any imported materials
examined in a sandbox. Most security products exact a pretty
heavy cost *and* still don't protect against 0day *or* exploits
that have yet to be discovered!

Don't visit places you shouldn't and that makes a big difference!
(and don't open attachments)

>> Can you even find a "version number" on a web-based service's
>> site?  If Digikey errs, how do you report the error?
>>
>>    "I was using the version you had in place at 5:37PM on 11 Dec
>>     when I observed the problem"
>>
>>    "Well, we can't reproduce it..."
>>
>>    "Are you using the 5:37PM 11 Dec version in your attempts?"
>>
>>    "No, it's now 8:14AM Dec 13.  We no longer have that available
>>     on our server..."
>>
>> I.e., why bother reporting a problem if there's no way to
>> troubleshoot it?
>
> If we look at the incentives, it's most likely that people
> behave this way to maintain employment.
>
> They're not wrong....

I think it's just part of the "it's too easy to change"
so folks *change* it too often.

If you had to ship a set of ROMs out to each customer,
you'd discover that "good enough" is "good enough"
(even if it has some bugs)

>> Or, products with lifespans too short to remain "current"
>> long enough to warrant an upgrade!  (How many upgrades in
>> your smart TV?)
>
> I couldn't necessarily even count them. I finally gave up
> on finding a "dumb" tv and the last one is "smart". It's not
> too bad but one of these days it's gonna fail.

I use my TVs as monitors (and monitors as TVs). Put the "smarts"
in an external appliance that *I* can control so I'm not
reliant on the availability of a current update from the TV
manufacturer to fix the latest version of CODEC xyz.

Nowadays, there are a fair number of inexpensive, small
"SBCs" that will easily handle the computational load.

I just picked up some ~4"x4"x1" boxes that I'll be
fastening to the rear of some 24" monitors to make them
into "smart TVs" -- tuners located on the network
for OTA broadcast, media tank for stored content, etc.

[These are nice in that they have VESA *through-hole* mounts
so you can mount them to the back of the monitor and then
mount the assembly to a standard VESA mount -- using the same
100mm mounting holes]

>>> There are great ways to construct software to reduce the margin of
>>> error rapidly. These grew up around telecoms. Basically,
>>> do what FPGA people do.
>>
>> The number one prerequisite is WANTING to produce a quality
>> product.  And, knowing exactly what that product is intended to be.
>
> Is that too much to ask?

Yes, it is. Ask yourself when the last time you saw someone
rewarded for "a good job" or penalized for "f*cking up".

We're unhappy when we are the victims of this practice -- yet
likely engage in it all the time in *our* "responsibilities".

(a store clerk ringing up a sale incorrectly, a plumber
relying on plumber's putty instead of a good seal, etc.)

>>> Nobody is interested. You really do have the problem
>>> of what to do with staff once they're done and the "lurn
>>> to code" method of economic engagement is too loud to
>>> overcome.
>>
>> It's the mentality that leads to fast food restaurants putting
>> *pictures* of the menu items on the keys of the cash register
>> instead of requiring employees to be able to type in a numeric
>> value.
>
> I dunno - watch waitstaff at chain restaurants ( the one notch
> above fast food ) trying to run the POS systems. They're
> terrible; IMO the NCR platform was primarily the cause of this.

Likely designed by *engineers* -- with odd notions of what makes
something usable. They should have been forced to take on jobs
*as* waitstaff before even thinking about the task.

A nonprofit I'm involved with tracks donations by *weight*
(the *donor* must assess the monetary value of his donation
and justify it to the IRS, not the charity!). In the crudest
case, you want to note the weight of the donation and the
"type" of item being donated (medical equipment, computer
stuff, books, etc.).

As donations are often large/bulky/heavy, they are usually
transported to a scale on a cart, pallet or hand truck.

So, you need to discount the weight of the conveyance from
the reported weight (or, tare the scale prior to each weighing
and risk forgetting to do so!).

You'd likely also want to track *who* is accepting the donation
and performing the weighing (so you can retrain folks -- all
volunteers -- if there is evidence of inaccuracy in their
reports).

You'd also like to track the donor as many *corporate* donors
are notable (and you'd like to be able to acknowledge them
with a recognition of how many donations, their types and
total "volume" -- to show that you appreciate their efforts!)

This was all done by hand on 3-part carbon (NCR paper).

I automated this with a set of distributed "displays"
and receipt printers (as output devices) and barcode
readers and scales for the data entry: scan the barcode
label on the conveyance you are using and I know what it
weighs (so I can tare the scale without actually doing so),
scan the barcode label on the scale you are using
(so I know where to retrieve the data from), scan a
barcode on an oversized printed chart to indicate the
type of goods, scan the barcode on your "ID", scan
the barcode on a display/printer to route the status
of the donation to that device, etc.

Of course, there's no need to do ALL of these operations
for each donation. It's easy to "remember" the most recent
ID scanned and assume that "you" will be the user with that
barcode reader henceforth (scan "NONE" when you are done
with it if you fear someone else recording transactions
on your "account"). Ditto for the scale, conveyance,
type of goods, etc.

And, no need to scan in any particular order. I can
just as easily discount the weight of the conveyance
when informed of its identity AFTER a weighing as before.

On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:05:34 AM UTC-8, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 10:29:45 AM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
> > > On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 09:09:54 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 10:43:41 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> > > >> On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 07:00:46 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> > The CEO's salary is the LAST thing I want to know when buying a new car (which I have done recently).
> Who on earth would want to know what Sewage Sweeper wants to know when he buys a new car?

Quite possibly because I know a HELL OF A LOT more about trucks than you do, Bozo.

>
> The interests of the gibbering idiot end of the market are only interesting to people with total rubbish to get rid of.

I think you are being a bit HARSH on yourself, Bozo.

> > I am more interested in their reliability record. I owned an F-250 Super Duty for 10 years that was nearly flawless, so guess what I replaced it with?
> Something that has been certified flawless by Sewage Sweeper would be irresistible to the well-informed buyer. It's bound to have plenty of space to display "vote for Donald Trump" stickers. Wheels would probably be optional.

Spoken by a TRUE IDIOT.

> > Tesla, on the other hand, has MANY horror stories about flaws and the problems getting them repaired, which I have posted about.
> Sewage Sweepers superior insight and remarkable parsing skills could find horror stories about hard to repair Flaws in what more rational readers would see as rather positive reviews. He can always find something to misunderstand and carp about.

The Bozo would do well to read about the actual problems with the Tesla, but he probably owns one, so he wants to keep himself isolated from reality.

>
> --
> Bozo Bill Sloman, Sydney

Bozo's Sewage Sweeper

On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 3:59:31 PM UTC-8, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 10 December 2022 at 09:09:59 UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 10:43:41 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> > > On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 07:00:46 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
> > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >"Moreover, J.D Power and Consumer Reports have Tesla at the bottom of their lists when it comes to reliability, reporting an average of 171 mechanical issues per 100 vehicles, 51 more than the average for other car manufacturers."
> > > >
> > > >Every single aspect of the business operation is mismanaged. The banks and finance investment industries are surprisingly moronic in this regard. It's estimated the banking consortium (Morgan Stanley) that lent Musk $13.5B for the Twitter buy are already out $500M in a so-called mark-to-market loss. They can't give the loan away for 60 cents on the dollar, even the high risk players don't want to touch it. And Musk is going back to them for even more money.
> > > >
> > > >https://www.hotcars.com/real-truth-about-tesla-reliability/
> > > Tesla has sold over 3 million cars, over 80,000 in March. The fans
> > > aren't chased away by concern over reliability.
> > >
> > > PT Cruiser sold a lot of cars too.
> > Those people aren't doing their homework. They have choice. There are quite a few really great products from established automakers:
> >
> > Meanwhile, in the United States, buyers can select between the BMW i4 eDrive 40, which has a starting price of $55,900, the 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 6 with a MSRP of $44,000, the 2023 Kia EV6 retailing at a MSRP of $41,400, the 2023 Polestar 2 with a MSRP of $48,400, or even more affordable options like the cute 2023 Nissan LEAF, which has a starting price of $28,040.
> >
> > None of them pay their CEO $50 BILLION annually!
> >
> > This Is Why Tesla's Piece Of The EV Pie Is Shrinking
> >
> > https://www.hotcars.com/why-teslas-piece-of-the-ev-pie-is-shrinking/
> Tesla can sell every car they make, and are making them as fast as they can and accelerating having opened many new factories over the last couple of years.
>
> The reason they are losing market share is that many other manufacturers are coming into the marketplace being attracted by Tesla's success. Most of the TVs are difficult to get with very long lead times as demand is so high.
>
> kw

That DOESN'T mean their cars AREN'T full of defects.
https://insideevs.com/news/549130/consumerreports-tesla-reliability-poor-2021/
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/tesla-model-s-no-longer-recommended-by-consumer-reports.html
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/tesla-recalls-million-plus-vehicles-to-fix-window-software-a1007524049/
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/tesla-model-s-model-x-recall-power-steering-problem-a4893117329/
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/tesla-recall-faulty-heat-pump-loss-of-heating-a5384954255/
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/tesla-recalls-model-3-cars-for-speed-display-failure-a4795502494/
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/tesla-model-x-recall-front-passenger-airbag-a6492160935/
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/tesla-full-self-driving-recall-a3437446602/

On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 4:43:37 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 6:48:05 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 3:59:31 PM UTC-8, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, 10 December 2022 at 09:09:59 UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 10:43:41 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 07:00:46 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
> > > > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> The reason they are losing market share is that many other manufacturers are coming into the marketplace being attracted by Tesla's success. Most of the TVs are difficult to get with very long lead times as demand is so high.
> > >
> > That DOESN'T mean their cars AREN'T full of defects.
> <snipped Sewage Sweeper's collection of what he sees as negative links - he does sweep them up, though one could expect them to be less negative than he claims. Actually reading them to check would be a waste of time.>

The German Technical Inspection Association rates Tesla the worst of the worst across several categories.

https://www.tuev-verband.de/pressemitteilungen/e-autos-hauptuntersuchung

Hopefully they know more about cars than tailings dams and breast implants:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_%C3%9Cberwachungsverein#Scandals

Tesla is far less reliable than a breast implant.

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

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On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 1:43:37 AM UTC-8, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 6:48:05 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 3:59:31 PM UTC-8, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, 10 December 2022 at 09:09:59 UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 10:43:41 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 07:00:46 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
> > > > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> The reason they are losing market share is that many other manufacturers are coming into the marketplace being attracted by Tesla's success. Most of the TVs are difficult to get with very long lead times as demand is so high.
> > >
> > That DOESN'T mean their cars AREN'T full of defects.
> <snipped Sewage Sweeper's collection of what he sees as negative links - he does sweep them up, though one could expect them to be less negative than he claims. Actually reading them to check would be a waste of time.>
>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

LOL! Bozo has NOTHING to add, so he DELETES!! Hey Bozo, you CAN'T delete what has already been posted, but, nonetheless, here it is, AGAIN!

https://insideevs.com/news/549130/consumerreports-tesla-reliability-poor-2021/
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/tesla-model-s-no-longer-recommended-by-consumer-reports.html
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/tesla-recalls-million-plus-vehicles-to-fix-window-software-a1007524049/
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/tesla-model-s-model-x-recall-power-steering-problem-a4893117329/
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/tesla-recall-faulty-heat-pump-loss-of-heating-a5384954255/
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/tesla-recalls-model-3-cars-for-speed-display-failure-a4795502494/
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/tesla-model-x-recall-front-passenger-airbag-a6492160935/
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/tesla-full-self-driving-recall-a3437446602/

Bozo's Sewage Sweeper