10MHz is a sound wave? What are these people? Bats?

Study Abstract:

A novel strategy utilizing high-frequency (10 MHz) hybrid sound waves to dramatically enhance hydrogen evolution reactions (HER) in notoriously difficult neutral electrolytes by modifying their network coordination state is presented. Herein, the practical limitations associated with existing electrolyzer technology is addressed, including the need for highly corrosive electrolytes and expensive electrocatalysts, by redefining conceptually-poor hydrogen electrocatalysts in neutral electrolytes. The improvement in HER performance is attributed to the unique capability of the intense local electromechanical coupling arising from the acoustic-forcing to ‘frustrate’ the tetrahedrally-coordinated hydrogen bond network of water molecules at the electrode–electrolyte interface, resulting in the generation of a high concentration of “free” water molecules that are more readily able to access catalytic sites on the unmodified polycrystalline electrode. Together with the other synergistic effects that accompany the acoustic excitation (e.g., hydronium ion generation, convective relaxation of diffusion mass transfer limitations, and prevention of bubble build-up and their removal from the electrode), the resultant overpotential reduction of 1.4 V at −100 mA cm−2 and corresponding 14-fold increase in current density, together with a net-positive energy saving of 27.3%, showcases the potential of the technology as a scalable platform for effectively enhancing the efficiency of green hydrogen production.

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/sound-waves-boost-green-hydrogen-production

On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:19:30 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> 10MHz is a sound wave? What are these people? Bats?
>
> Study Abstract:
>
> A novel strategy utilizing high-frequency (10 MHz) hybrid sound waves to dramatically enhance hydrogen evolution reactions (HER) in notoriously difficult neutral electrolytes by modifying their network coordination state is presented. Herein, the practical limitations associated with existing electrolyzer technology is addressed, including the need for highly corrosive electrolytes and expensive electrocatalysts, by redefining conceptually-poor hydrogen electrocatalysts in neutral electrolytes. The improvement in HER performance is attributed to the unique capability of the intense local electromechanical coupling arising from the acoustic-forcing to ‘frustrate’ the tetrahedrally-coordinated hydrogen bond network of water molecules at the electrode–electrolyte interface, resulting in the generation of a high concentration of “free” water molecules that are more readily able to access catalytic sites on the unmodified polycrystalline electrode. Together with the other synergistic effects that accompany the acoustic excitation (e.g., hydronium ion generation, convective relaxation of diffusion mass transfer limitations, and prevention of bubble build-up and their removal from the electrode), the resultant overpotential reduction of 1.4 V at −100 mA cm−2 and corresponding 14-fold increase in current density, together with a net-positive energy saving of 27.3%, showcases the potential of the technology as a scalable platform for effectively enhancing the efficiency of green hydrogen production.
>
> https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/sound-waves-boost-green-hydrogen-production
old fake

hydrogen production is highly expensive
and don't expect price of hydrogen to ever drop.

Hydrogen combustion is a violent exothermic reaction
so reversing this reaction and recovering hydrogen from water by electrolysis requires supplying even more expensive energy.

Otherwise a perpetual motion machine would be created (fake called Over Unity - energy conversion efficiency)

On 2022-12-19 16:19, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> 10MHz is a sound wave? What are these people? Bats?

I once designed the 'ultrasound' driver and receiver of a rotating scanner used inside blood vessels to image arterial plaques and lesions. The 0.4 mm diameter piëzo-element had to be driven by a 12 ns 100 V impulse, the returned echoes were centered around 40 MHz. It was fun work, using avalanche transistors, current feedback op amps and wide band log detectors.

Arie de Muijnck

On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:18:42 AM UTC-5, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
> On 2022-12-19 16:19, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > 10MHz is a sound wave? What are these people? Bats?
> I once designed the 'ultrasound' driver and receiver of a rotating scanner used inside blood vessels to image arterial plaques and lesions. The 0.4 mm diameter piëzo-element had to be driven by a 12 ns 100 V impulse, the returned echoes were centered around 40 MHz. It was fun work, using avalanche transistors, current feedback op amps and wide band log detectors.

Good heavens- that sound like impossible performance-. That was an accomplishment and then some.

>
> Arie de Muijnck

On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 07:19:26 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>10MHz is a sound wave? What are these people? Bats?
>
>Study Abstract:
>
>A novel strategy utilizing high-frequency (10 MHz) hybrid sound waves to dramatically enhance hydrogen evolution reactions (HER) in notoriously difficult neutral electrolytes by modifying their network coordination state is presented. Herein, the practical limitations associated with existing electrolyzer technology is addressed, including the need for highly corrosive electrolytes and expensive electrocatalysts, by redefining conceptually-poor hydrogen electrocatalysts in neutral electrolytes. The improvement in HER performance is attributed to the unique capability of the intense local electromechanical coupling arising from the acoustic-forcing to ‘frustrate’ the tetrahedrally-coordinated hydrogen bond network of water molecules at the electrode–electrolyte interface, resulting in the generation of a high concentration of “free” water molecules that are more readily able to access catalytic sites on the unmodified polycrystalline electrode. Together with the other synergistic
>effects that accompany the acoustic excitation (e.g., hydronium ion generation, convective relaxation of diffusion mass transfer limitations, and prevention of bubble build-up and their removal from the electrode), the resultant overpotential reduction of 1.4 V at ?100 mA cm?2 and corresponding 14-fold increase in current density, together with a net-positive energy saving of 27.3%, showcases the potential of the technology as a scalable platform for effectively enhancing the efficiency of green hydrogen production.
>
>https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/sound-waves-boost-green-hydrogen-production

There should be a separate newsgroup for posting links to bogus
science press releases.

On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:31:40 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 07:19:26 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >10MHz is a sound wave? What are these people? Bats?
> >
> >Study Abstract:
> >
> >A novel strategy utilizing high-frequency (10 MHz) hybrid sound waves to dramatically enhance hydrogen evolution reactions (HER) in notoriously difficult neutral electrolytes by modifying their network coordination state is presented. Herein, the practical limitations associated with existing electrolyzer technology is addressed, including the need for highly corrosive electrolytes and expensive electrocatalysts, by redefining conceptually-poor hydrogen electrocatalysts in neutral electrolytes. The improvement in HER performance is attributed to the unique capability of the intense local electromechanical coupling arising from the acoustic-forcing to ‘frustrate’ the tetrahedrally-coordinated hydrogen bond network of water molecules at the electrode–electrolyte interface, resulting in the generation of a high concentration of “free” water molecules that are more readily able to access catalytic sites on the unmodified polycrystalline electrode. Together with the other synergistic
> >effects that accompany the acoustic excitation (e.g., hydronium ion generation, convective relaxation of diffusion mass transfer limitations, and prevention of bubble build-up and their removal from the electrode), the resultant overpotential reduction of 1.4 V at ?100 mA cm?2 and corresponding 14-fold increase in current density, together with a net-positive energy saving of 27.3%, showcases the potential of the technology as a scalable platform for effectively enhancing the efficiency of green hydrogen production.
> >
> >https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/sound-waves-boost-green-hydrogen-production
>
> There should be a separate newsgroup for posting links to bogus
> science press releases.

sci.bogus.pr

So you think they falsified the results?

Apparently bubble formation on the electrodes was more of a problem than people thought. Not sure of the hydronium ion generation, but all in all it can be summarized as an electrode area and current density multiplier. A net positive energy savings of over 27%, when scaled to the kind of massive production industry has in mind, is extremely advantageous energy economy. Of course, that's just my opinion.

On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:16:11 AM UTC-5, a a wrote:
> On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:19:30 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > 10MHz is a sound wave? What are these people? Bats?
> >
> > Study Abstract:
> >
> > A novel strategy utilizing high-frequency (10 MHz) hybrid sound waves to dramatically enhance hydrogen evolution reactions (HER) in notoriously difficult neutral electrolytes by modifying their network coordination state is presented. Herein, the practical limitations associated with existing electrolyzer technology is addressed, including the need for highly corrosive electrolytes and expensive electrocatalysts, by redefining conceptually-poor hydrogen electrocatalysts in neutral electrolytes. The improvement in HER performance is attributed to the unique capability of the intense local electromechanical coupling arising from the acoustic-forcing to ‘frustrate’ the tetrahedrally-coordinated hydrogen bond network of water molecules at the electrode–electrolyte interface, resulting in the generation of a high concentration of “free” water molecules that are more readily able to access catalytic sites on the unmodified polycrystalline electrode. Together with the other synergistic effects that accompany the acoustic excitation (e.g., hydronium ion generation, convective relaxation of diffusion mass transfer limitations, and prevention of bubble build-up and their removal from the electrode), the resultant overpotential reduction of 1.4 V at −100 mA cm−2 and corresponding 14-fold increase in current density, together with a net-positive energy saving of 27.3%, showcases the potential of the technology as a scalable platform for effectively enhancing the efficiency of green hydrogen production.
> >
> > https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/sound-waves-boost-green-hydrogen-production
> old fake
>
> hydrogen production is highly expensive
> and don't expect price of hydrogen to ever drop.
>
> Hydrogen combustion is a violent exothermic reaction
> so reversing this reaction and recovering hydrogen from water by electrolysis requires supplying even more expensive energy.
>
> Otherwise a perpetual motion machine would be created (fake called Over Unity - energy conversion efficiency)

Nobody promised mankind a free lunch.

Fred Bloggs wrote:
> 10MHz is a sound wave? What are these people? Bats?
<snip>

You can do megasonics in air over sufficiently-short distances. The
motion becomes less collective as the frequency approaches the mean time
between collisions, meaning that the attenuation increases rapidly with
frequency.

My old colleague John Fox whom I mentioned in another thread did a 2-MHz
acoustic microscope in air almost 40 years ago:

https://www.osti.gov/biblio/5489752

At that point I was doing 2-GHz acoustic microscopy in hot water, but I
didn't build that apparatus.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 08:44:33 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:31:40 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 07:19:26 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >10MHz is a sound wave? What are these people? Bats?
>> >
>> >Study Abstract:
>> >
>> >A novel strategy utilizing high-frequency (10 MHz) hybrid sound waves to dramatically enhance hydrogen evolution reactions (HER) in notoriously difficult neutral electrolytes by modifying their network coordination state is presented. Herein, the practical limitations associated with existing electrolyzer technology is addressed, including the need for highly corrosive electrolytes and expensive electrocatalysts, by redefining conceptually-poor hydrogen electrocatalysts in neutral electrolytes. The improvement in HER performance is attributed to the unique capability of the intense local electromechanical coupling arising from the acoustic-forcing to ‘frustrate’ the tetrahedrally-coordinated hydrogen bond network of water molecules at the electrode–electrolyte interface, resulting in the generation of a high concentration of “free” water molecules that are more readily able to access catalytic sites on the unmodified polycrystalline electrode. Together with the other synergistic
>> >effects that accompany the acoustic excitation (e.g., hydronium ion generation, convective relaxation of diffusion mass transfer limitations, and prevention of bubble build-up and their removal from the electrode), the resultant overpotential reduction of 1.4 V at ?100 mA cm?2 and corresponding 14-fold increase in current density, together with a net-positive energy saving of 27.3%, showcases the potential of the technology as a scalable platform for effectively enhancing the efficiency of green hydrogen production.
>> >
>> >https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/sound-waves-boost-green-hydrogen-production
>>
>> There should be a separate newsgroup for posting links to bogus
>> science press releases.
>
>sci.bogus.pr
>
>So you think they falsified the results?

Probably not, but scientific breakthroughs like this happen roughly
hourly, and not 1 in 1000 ever amounts to anything useful.

On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 1:34:35 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 08:44:33 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:31:40 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 07:19:26 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> >https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/sound-waves-boost-green-hydrogen-production
> >>
> >> There should be a separate newsgroup for posting links to bogus
> >> science press releases.
> >
> >sci.bogus.pr
> >
> >So you think they falsified the results?

> Probably not, but scientific breakthroughs like this happen roughly
> hourly, and not 1 in 1000 ever amounts to anything useful.

It's not a scientific breakthrough, it's a chemical engineering innovation.
Sonic processing is how ductile metalwork is done, too; saves on mechanical
energy. Useful, yes; well-known by folk outside the industry... no.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 08:16:06 -0800 (PST), a a <manta103g@gmail.com>
wrote:

>hydrogen production is highly expensive
>and don't expect price of hydrogen to ever drop.
>
>Hydrogen combustion is a violent exothermic reaction
>so reversing this reaction and recovering hydrogen from water by electrolysis requires supplying even more expensive energy.

The cost of hydrogen production with electrolysis depends on how the
electricity is made.

If the bulk of electric production is done with unreliable renewable
sources, such as solar and wind, you have to install production units
with multiple times (3-10) the average consumption to get a sufficient
power on average.

However, there are short times, such large stormy days or simultaneous
high production of solar and wind, there is going to be a huge
overproduction of electricity. This will drop the electric prices
possibly to zero.

What to do with this overproduction ? One could stop some wind
turbines (greenies will scream), heat water tanks for later heating or
perhaps make hydrogen.

Since such overproduction times are only maybe 10 % of the time such
as a few days a month, the hydrogen production also can occur at these
times only. Thus, the cost of making electrolysis equipment must be
low to economically support such low duty cycle system.

To avoid such local overproduction areas and large daily price
variations strong continent wide high voltage lines can be built to
transfer electricity from overproduction areas to underproduction such
as cloudy and calm areas. In areas with temporary low production, such
lines makes it possible to have lower installed nominal generation
capacity (closer to average consumption) and more predictable electric
prices.

With no more zero priced electricity, there is no cheap electricity
for hydrogen production, but who needs it anyway if electricity is
available around the clock through these high voltage lines ?

Building new continent wide high voltage lines is also a question of
right of way (ROW) issues, so in populated areas underground cables
must be used, forcing the use of HVD, which is also beneficial for
transferring power over 1000 km. Building such cables is expensive and
only occur slowly, so hydrogen economy may live for some time.

whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

> https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/sound-waves-boost-green-hyd
> rogen-production

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
A novel strategy utilizing high-frequency (10 MHz) hybrid sound waves to
dramatically enhance hydrogen evolution reactions (HER) in notoriously
difficult neutral electrolytes by modifying their network coordination
state is presented. Herein, the practical limitations associated with
existing electrolyzer technology is addressed, including the need for
highly corrosive electrolytes and expensive electrocatalysts, by redefining
conceptually-poor hydrogen electrocatalysts in neutral electrolytes. The
improvement in HER performance is attributed to the unique capability of
the intense local electromechanical coupling arising from the acoustic-
forcing to �frustrate� the tetrahedrally-coordinated hydrogen bond network
of water molecules at the electrode�electrolyte interface, resulting in the
generation of a high concentration of �free� water molecules that are more
readily able to access catalytic sites on the unmodified polycrystalline
electrode. Together with the other synergistic effects that accompany the
acoustic excitation (e.g., hydronium ion generation, convective relaxation
of diffusion mass transfer limitations, and prevention of bubble build-up
and their removal from the electrode), the resultant overpotential
reduction of 1.4 V at -100 mA cm-2 and corresponding 14-fold increase in
current density, together with a net-positive energy saving of 27.3%,
showcases the potential of the technology as a scalable platform for
effectively enhancing the efficiency of green hydrogen production.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for the analysis:

A novel strategy utilizing high-frequency (10 MHz) hybrid sound waves to
dramatically enhance hydrogen evolution reactions (HER) in notoriously
difficult neutral electrolytes by modifying their network coordination
state is presented.

- Hybrid sound waves is a meaningless term.
- hydrogen evolution reactions (HER) is a meaningless term.
- notoriously difficult neutral electrolytes. Water is not a difficult
electrolyte.
- network coordination state is a meaningless term.

Herein, the practical limitations associated with existing electrolyzer
technology is addressed, including the need for highly corrosive
electrolytes and expensive electrocatalysts, by redefining conceptually-
poor hydrogen electrocatalysts in neutral electrolytes.

- this is complete gobblygook. See the article at the end for a complete
description of the electrolysis process.

The improvement in HER performance is attributed to the unique capability
of the intense local electromechanical coupling arising from the acoustic-
forcing to �frustrate� the tetrahedrally-coordinated hydrogen bond network
of water molecules at the electrode�electrolyte interface, resulting in the
generation of a high concentration of �free� water molecules that are more
readily able to access catalytic sites on the unmodified polycrystalline
electrode.

- more fantasy. Water bonding events last for picoseconds, then the
molecules drift off to pair with someone else.

- the electrodes are not polycrystalline. They need to be non-reactive
metals like platinum or gold, or carbon.

- access catalytic sites. The entire surface of the electrodes are free for
electrolysis.

Together with the other synergistic effects that accompany the acoustic
excitation (e.g., hydronium ion generation, convective relaxation of
diffusion mass transfer limitations, and prevention of bubble build-up and
their removal from the electrode), the resultant overpotential reduction of
1.4 V at -100 mA cm-2 and corresponding 14-fold increase in current
density, together with a net-positive energy saving of 27.3%, showcases the
potential of the technology as a scalable platform for effectively
enhancing the efficiency of green hydrogen production.

- more gobblygook.

- the current density at the electrodes is determined by the surface area
of the electrodes.

- a 14-fold increase in current density means the surface area is reduced
by a factor of 14 for the same current level.

- this is the exact opposite of what you want. You need to INCREASE the
surface area and REDUCE the current density.

- There is no correlation between the 14-fold increase in current density
and the claimed energy saving.

- there is no description of how net-positive energy saving of 27.3% is
achieved. Simply removing a few bubbles from the electrodes by applying
ultrasonic energy to the solution is not going to improve efficiency.

- the power required to generate the ultrasound will reduce the efficiency,
not increase it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Water electrolysis is well understood and has been used for many years.
Here is an excerpt:

Quote:

Electrolysis is a promising option for carbon-free hydrogen production from
renewable and nuclear resources. Electrolysis is the process of using
electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. This reaction takes
place in a unit called an electrolyzer. Electrolyzers can range in size
from small, appliance-size equipment that is well-suited for small-scale
distributed hydrogen production to large-scale, central production
facilities that could be tied directly to renewable or other non-
greenhouse-gas-emitting forms of electricity production.

How Does it Work?

Like fuel cells, electrolyzers consist of an anode and a cathode separated
by an electrolyte. Different electrolyzers function in different ways,
mainly due to the different type of electrolyte material involved and the
ionic species it conducts.

Polymer Electrolyte Membrane Electrolyzers

In a polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) electrolyzer, the electrolyte is a
solid specialty plastic material.

- Water reacts at the anode to form oxygen and positively charged hydrogen
ions (protons).

Anode Reaction: 2H2O - 4e- --> O2 + 4H+
(this equation was wrong in the article. I correct it here. MRM)

- The electrons flow through an external circuit and the hydrogen ions
selectively move across the PEM to the cathode.

- At the cathode, hydrogen ions combine with electrons from the external
circuit to form hydrogen gas.

Cathode Reaction: 4H+ + 4e- --> 2H2

Alkaline Electrolyzers

Alkaline electrolyzers operate via transport of hydroxide ions (OH-)
through the electrolyte from the cathode to the anode with hydrogen being
generated on the cathode side. Electrolyzers using a liquid alkaline
solution of sodium or potassium hydroxide as the electrolyte have been
commercially available for many years. Newer approaches using solid
alkaline exchange membranes (AEM) as the electrolyte are showing promise on
the lab scale.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-electrolysis

--
MRM

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