On Saturday, 31 December 2022 at 23:22:35 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 15:03:40 -0500, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
> >John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 12:21:28 -0500, Phil Hobbs
> >> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Joe Gwinn wrote:
> >>>> On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 08:17:09 -0800, John Larkin
> >>>> <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 10:51:35 -0500, Phil Hobbs
> >>>>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Why not make people push a button on the fob to unlock the car?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yeah, talk about solving a non-problem.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Phil Hobbs
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My RF key fob has a little (mechanical) button that, when pressed, a
> >>>>> metal key pops out! That will open doors even if all involved
> >>>>> batteries are dead.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have one of those too.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I got a little lithium battery jump starter as a backup. USB
> >>>>> rechargeable. It has USB power out too. I don't have to mess with
> >>>>> jumper cables to start my car, or someone else's car.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It claims 1000 amps, which is improbable, but it started my V6 Audi
> >>>>> when it was cold and had a bad battery.
> >>>>
> >>>> This sounds worthwhile. Modern cars are actually too big for their
> >>>> batteries, by a factor.
> >>>>
> >>>> What make and model?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> The Project Farm guy (Todd) has done a couple of jump-box comparos that
> >>> are worth watching (at 1.75x, usually).
> >>>
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRFwEUr_Vjc
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zAgL2L4ILY
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>>
> >>> Phil Hobbs
> >>
> >> There seem to be 10 Chinese amps per SI amp.
> >>
> >> The Bureau of Consumer Protection is a joke.
> >>
> >Yup. Way worse than even Marketing Megapixels. The 'boost button' is
> >key--lots of chargers won't work on a completely dead battery.
> The car parts people sell those kinds of chargers, because it leads to
> more battery sales.
>
> I keep a bench power supply around the house. It will charge a totally
> dead battery.
totally dead gel batteries don't accept charge

On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 9:51:30 AM UTC-8, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> whit3rd wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 8:47:16 AM UTC-8, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >> John Larkin wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 21:00:41 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
> >>> <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 7:59:34 AM UTC-8, John Larkin
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 19:09:10 -0500, Joe Gwinn
> >>>>> <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >>>>>> I bet keeping the fobs in an open top brass bowl would also
> >>>>>> work, by being a shorted turn close to the fob's antenna loop.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I doubt it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Put the fob in the bowl and walk towards the car.
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh, don't doubt it. Metal in proximity is all it takes to bollix
> >>>> a signal. At the metal surface, E field is zero.

> >>>> I missed a lot of phone messages once, because I left my cell phone
> >>>> on a copper-clad counter. Felt a little silly when I was told no
> >>>> one could get in touch.
> >
> >> Third has lived a sheltered life. ;)

> I might remind you that you said, "Metal in proximity is all it
> takes...", which is spinach.

Proximity, in the cited case, was a sheet of metal a few mm from
the cellphone antenna, parallel to it. No antenna is happy with
that much near-field interference with its tuning for the frequencies
of interest. Radio isn't like light; emission/reception is NOT independent
of metal in the antenna nearfield. The nearfield is large, and everything
in it changes the albedo-equivalent.

Apple, notably, took a lot of flak from users when iPhone 4 was found to
lose connections when held lefthanded.

On 31/12/22 07:13, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 14:22:08 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 07:59:23 -0800, John Larkin
>> <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 19:09:10 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 15:32:07 -0800, John Larkin
>>>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 22:08:22 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
>>>>> <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In sci.electronics.repair micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.moneyshake.com/car-finance-guides/road-safety/how-to-protect-keyless-entry-cars
>>>>>>> Unlike standard cars where access without raising the alarm requires the
>>>>>>> key, keyless entry models can be ?tricked? into thinking a key is
>>>>>>> present through a transmitter and receiver device.
>>>>>>> If your car?s fob isn?t stored safely, then it can be very easy for a
>>>>>>> pair of opportune thieves to pick up the key?s radio frequency signal,
>>>>>>> without having to break into your house. Luckily, however, there are
>>>>>>> many ways in which you can make it extremely difficult for them to do
>>>>>>> this and protect your motor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---- Except, how isthere any signal to pick up unless you are in your
>>>>>>> home pressing the Unlock button on the fob at the same time the thief
>>>>>>> drives by? I myself dont' bother pressing fob buttons once I've left
>>>>>>> the car, until I want to drive away the next day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/relay-devices-being-used-to-steal-locked-cars/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I'm close to my Lexus LS460L with keyfob in my pocket it greets me with
>>>>>> turning on the lights under rearview mirrors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then, I pull the door handle and it opens the door and unfolds the rearview
>>>>>> mirrors. Then, I step on the brake pedal and push the car's (not keyfob)
>>>>>> START button and it starts up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, when I'm touching a button on the trunk with my keyfob in my pocket it
>>>>>> opens the trunk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> None of that happens when I have that keyfob in a copper mesh Faraday
>>>>>> bag/protector no matter how close I am to my car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't remember pushing ANY keyfob button EVER for as long as I own that
>>>>>> car. I'm locking it when leaving by pressing a button on any door handle. It
>>>>>> locks all doors, folds the mirrors and activates security system when a
>>>>>> button on any door handle is pressed when keyfob is nearby and not in
>>>>>> Faraday bag. Won't do it if the keyfob is inside the car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And this is true for ALL relatively modern cars with that START button. They
>>>>>> are ALL prone to stealing by an amplifier/receiver if keyfob is not put in a
>>>>>> Faraday bag. There was a video from security camera on our local Nextdoor
>>>>>> showing how a top-of-the-line Mercedes-Benz was stolen from our neighbor's
>>>>>> driveway in less than a minute, from a car stopping by and a perp going out
>>>>>> of that car to the moment he drove away in that Mercedes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please, don't spread that BS about no signal unless a keyfob button is
>>>>>> pressed. It is simply false.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> ******************************************************************
>>>>>> * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
>>>>>> * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
>>>>>> ******************************************************************
>>>>>
>>>>> When we get home, our keys go in a Danish Butter Cookie can. Those are
>>>>> pretty good shields.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/30c6aesh4tzjg56/Z496_Can.jpg?raw=1
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/cuxn5r7yzenb8m2/Z496_Out.jpg?raw=1
>>>>
>>>> I bet keeping the fobs in an open top brass bowl would also work, by
>>>> being a shorted turn close to the fob's antenna loop.
>>>
>>> I doubt it.
>>>
>>> Put the fob in the bowl and walk towards the car.
>>
>> Good idea, and now it's warm enough.
>>
>> The car being tested is a 2018 Honda CR-V.
>>
>> The bowl did reduce range if one pushed the lock/unlock buttons using
>> a 9" wooden stick (versus one's finger), but not enough to solve the
>> problem I'd guess.
>>
>> Bowl is made of spun 0.0355" thick brass, open top diameter 7.4", and
>> depth 3.3". Base, also same kind of brass, is soft soldered to the
>> bowl, looks to be done by hand with a big soldering iron (not a
>> torch). Quite old, has no markings whatsoever, likely US made.
>>
>> Also tried a 12" square sheet of 0.062" thick brass - same result.
>>
>> A cover ought to help, but this will take some fiddling to be able to
>> push the buttons through a solid metal sheet. Although I do have some
>> copper insect screening that could be pressed into service. One can
>> also make a bag from this screening fabric.
>>
>> Longer term, I think that the entire class of man-in-the-middle
>> attacks on key fobs will be solved by moving to some kind of
>> ultra-wideband signal, where one can measure round-trip time to with
>> picosecond precision, using a crypto-key sequence that cannot be
>> deduced from received signals fast enough to matter, thus allowing
>> too-distant fobs to be ignored with sufficiently low leakage to make
>> this kind of attack unprofitable.
>>
>> Joe Gwinn
>
> Why not make people push a button on the fob to unlock the car?
>
That is how my car works. 2014 model. They used to get it right.
--
Marty

On Tue, 3 Jan 2023 20:03:41 +1100, marty <marty@invalid.net> wrote:

>On 31/12/22 07:13, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 14:22:08 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 07:59:23 -0800, John Larkin
>>> <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 19:09:10 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 15:32:07 -0800, John Larkin
>>>>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 22:08:22 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
>>>>>> <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In sci.electronics.repair micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.moneyshake.com/car-finance-guides/road-safety/how-to-protect-keyless-entry-cars
>>>>>>>> Unlike standard cars where access without raising the alarm requires the
>>>>>>>> key, keyless entry models can be ?tricked? into thinking a key is
>>>>>>>> present through a transmitter and receiver device.
>>>>>>>> If your car?s fob isn?t stored safely, then it can be very easy for a
>>>>>>>> pair of opportune thieves to pick up the key?s radio frequency signal,
>>>>>>>> without having to break into your house. Luckily, however, there are
>>>>>>>> many ways in which you can make it extremely difficult for them to do
>>>>>>>> this and protect your motor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---- Except, how isthere any signal to pick up unless you are in your
>>>>>>>> home pressing the Unlock button on the fob at the same time the thief
>>>>>>>> drives by? I myself dont' bother pressing fob buttons once I've left
>>>>>>>> the car, until I want to drive away the next day.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/relay-devices-being-used-to-steal-locked-cars/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I'm close to my Lexus LS460L with keyfob in my pocket it greets me with
>>>>>>> turning on the lights under rearview mirrors.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then, I pull the door handle and it opens the door and unfolds the rearview
>>>>>>> mirrors. Then, I step on the brake pedal and push the car's (not keyfob)
>>>>>>> START button and it starts up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, when I'm touching a button on the trunk with my keyfob in my pocket it
>>>>>>> opens the trunk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> None of that happens when I have that keyfob in a copper mesh Faraday
>>>>>>> bag/protector no matter how close I am to my car.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't remember pushing ANY keyfob button EVER for as long as I own that
>>>>>>> car. I'm locking it when leaving by pressing a button on any door handle. It
>>>>>>> locks all doors, folds the mirrors and activates security system when a
>>>>>>> button on any door handle is pressed when keyfob is nearby and not in
>>>>>>> Faraday bag. Won't do it if the keyfob is inside the car.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And this is true for ALL relatively modern cars with that START button. They
>>>>>>> are ALL prone to stealing by an amplifier/receiver if keyfob is not put in a
>>>>>>> Faraday bag. There was a video from security camera on our local Nextdoor
>>>>>>> showing how a top-of-the-line Mercedes-Benz was stolen from our neighbor's
>>>>>>> driveway in less than a minute, from a car stopping by and a perp going out
>>>>>>> of that car to the moment he drove away in that Mercedes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please, don't spread that BS about no signal unless a keyfob button is
>>>>>>> pressed. It is simply false.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> ******************************************************************
>>>>>>> * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
>>>>>>> * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
>>>>>>> ******************************************************************
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When we get home, our keys go in a Danish Butter Cookie can. Those are
>>>>>> pretty good shields.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/30c6aesh4tzjg56/Z496_Can.jpg?raw=1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/cuxn5r7yzenb8m2/Z496_Out.jpg?raw=1
>>>>>
>>>>> I bet keeping the fobs in an open top brass bowl would also work, by
>>>>> being a shorted turn close to the fob's antenna loop.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt it.
>>>>
>>>> Put the fob in the bowl and walk towards the car.
>>>
>>> Good idea, and now it's warm enough.
>>>
>>> The car being tested is a 2018 Honda CR-V.
>>>
>>> The bowl did reduce range if one pushed the lock/unlock buttons using
>>> a 9" wooden stick (versus one's finger), but not enough to solve the
>>> problem I'd guess.
>>>
>>> Bowl is made of spun 0.0355" thick brass, open top diameter 7.4", and
>>> depth 3.3". Base, also same kind of brass, is soft soldered to the
>>> bowl, looks to be done by hand with a big soldering iron (not a
>>> torch). Quite old, has no markings whatsoever, likely US made.
>>>
>>> Also tried a 12" square sheet of 0.062" thick brass - same result.
>>>
>>> A cover ought to help, but this will take some fiddling to be able to
>>> push the buttons through a solid metal sheet. Although I do have some
>>> copper insect screening that could be pressed into service. One can
>>> also make a bag from this screening fabric.
>>>
>>> Longer term, I think that the entire class of man-in-the-middle
>>> attacks on key fobs will be solved by moving to some kind of
>>> ultra-wideband signal, where one can measure round-trip time to with
>>> picosecond precision, using a crypto-key sequence that cannot be
>>> deduced from received signals fast enough to matter, thus allowing
>>> too-distant fobs to be ignored with sufficiently low leakage to make
>>> this kind of attack unprofitable.
>>>
>>> Joe Gwinn
>>
>> Why not make people push a button on the fob to unlock the car?
>>
>That is how my car works. 2014 model. They used to get it right.

Mine is so old it doesn't have a touch screen.