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tech / sci.electronics.design / How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts

How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts

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Subject: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts
From: bloggs.f...@gmail.com (Fred Bloggs)
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by: Fred Bloggs - Sun, 15 Jan 2023 19:24 UTC

-instead of watching epic atmospheric river rainfall drain into the Pacific

- or how to poison your aquifers statewide. That water might look nice, but a lot of it is contaminated. Runoff from agricultural land is heavily contaminated.

Problem is the scale is too large, it will cost a quadrillion dollars whatever they do.

https://theconversation.com/how-california-could-save-up-its-rain-to-ease-future-droughts-instead-of-watching-epic-atmospheric-river-rainfall-drain-into-the-pacific-197168

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Subject: Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts
From: deanh6...@gmail.com (Dean Hoffman)
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by: Dean Hoffman - Sun, 15 Jan 2023 20:43 UTC

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 1:24:32 PM UTC-6, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> -instead of watching epic atmospheric river rainfall drain into the Pacific
>
> - or how to poison your aquifers statewide. That water might look nice, but a lot of it is contaminated. Runoff from agricultural land is heavily contaminated.
>
> Problem is the scale is too large, it will cost a quadrillion dollars whatever they do.
>
> https://theconversation.com/how-california-could-save-up-its-rain-to-ease-future-droughts-instead-of-watching-epic-atmospheric-river-rainfall-drain-into-the-pacific-197168

I wonder how much of an issue contaminated runoff from farm ground is an issue nowadays.
Guys of my dad's generation would set something to control application of fertilizer or spray. They guessed at field speed. NH3 application varied by tank pressure. The setting didn't change.
Now there are monitors to control application rates for liquid and gas application.
Examples here.
<https://agriculture.hiniker.com/8160-automatic-rate-controller/>
I worked for a farm equipment dealer. He sold these things maybe back in the mid 1980s
or so. Yield monitors and soil testing would also help to prevent over application. Farmers will know for sure if a certain nutrient is needed. Avoiding over application saves money. "A penny saved is a penny earned".

Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts

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Subject: Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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by: whit3rd - Sun, 15 Jan 2023 22:28 UTC

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 11:24:32 AM UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> -instead of watching epic atmospheric river rainfall drain into the Pacific
>
> - or how to poison your aquifers statewide. That water might look nice, but a lot of it is contaminated. Runoff from agricultural land is heavily contaminated.
>
> Problem is the scale is too large, it will cost a quadrillion dollars whatever they do.

That's not likely; Peru has earthworks for water retention that were constructed centuries ago, and still
kinda work.
>
> https://theconversation.com/how-california-could-save-up-its-rain-to-ease-future-droughts-instead-of-watching-epic-atmospheric-river-rainfall-drain-into-the-pacific-197168

There has to be some runoff allowed, in any case, to flush selenium out of San Joaquin valley,
or arsenic from rice fields in Texas. Presumably, management is less expensive than toxic waste
ruining every crop.

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Subject: Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts
From: bloggs.f...@gmail.com (Fred Bloggs)
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by: Fred Bloggs - Mon, 16 Jan 2023 02:22 UTC

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:44:00 PM UTC-5, dean...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 1:24:32 PM UTC-6, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > -instead of watching epic atmospheric river rainfall drain into the Pacific
> >
> > - or how to poison your aquifers statewide. That water might look nice, but a lot of it is contaminated. Runoff from agricultural land is heavily contaminated.
> >
> > Problem is the scale is too large, it will cost a quadrillion dollars whatever they do.
> >
> > https://theconversation.com/how-california-could-save-up-its-rain-to-ease-future-droughts-instead-of-watching-epic-atmospheric-river-rainfall-drain-into-the-pacific-197168
> I wonder how much of an issue contaminated runoff from farm ground is an issue nowadays.
> Guys of my dad's generation would set something to control application of fertilizer or spray. They guessed at field speed. NH3 application varied by tank pressure. The setting didn't change.
> Now there are monitors to control application rates for liquid and gas application.
> Examples here.
> <https://agriculture.hiniker.com/8160-automatic-rate-controller/>
> I worked for a farm equipment dealer. He sold these things maybe back in the mid 1980s
> or so. Yield monitors and soil testing would also help to prevent over application. Farmers will know for sure if a certain nutrient is needed. Avoiding over application saves money. "A penny saved is a penny earned".

It's still a big issue. It's not one size fits all, it depends on location and runoff destination. For at least 35 years I know of, California has been triple cropping using irrigation water from extremely deep wells- over 500 ft. That kind of thing brings up plenty of heavily metals, which accumulate in the surface soil. Then they use a ton of other chemicals too:
https://www.usgs.gov/mission-areas/water-resources/science/agricultural-contaminants

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Subject: Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts
From: bloggs.f...@gmail.com (Fred Bloggs)
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by: Fred Bloggs - Mon, 16 Jan 2023 02:31 UTC

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 5:28:49 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 11:24:32 AM UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > -instead of watching epic atmospheric river rainfall drain into the Pacific
> >
> > - or how to poison your aquifers statewide. That water might look nice, but a lot of it is contaminated. Runoff from agricultural land is heavily contaminated.
> >
> > Problem is the scale is too large, it will cost a quadrillion dollars whatever they do.
> That's not likely; Peru has earthworks for water retention that were constructed centuries ago, and still
> kinda work.
> >
> > https://theconversation.com/how-california-could-save-up-its-rain-to-ease-future-droughts-instead-of-watching-epic-atmospheric-river-rainfall-drain-into-the-pacific-197168
>
> There has to be some runoff allowed, in any case, to flush selenium out of San Joaquin valley,
> or arsenic from rice fields in Texas. Presumably, management is less expensive than toxic waste
> ruining every crop.

There's the toxic waste holding ponds and burial sites all over the place. I wonder how many of these washed recently. They're not in the news because it would be a major scandal. I know they have more than a few disasters there.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2021-11-30/toxic-tides-sea-level-rise

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From: jlar...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com (John Larkin)
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by: John Larkin - Mon, 16 Jan 2023 14:38 UTC

On Sun, 15 Jan 2023 18:22:41 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:44:00 PM UTC-5, dean...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 1:24:32 PM UTC-6, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>> > -instead of watching epic atmospheric river rainfall drain into the Pacific
>> >
>> > - or how to poison your aquifers statewide. That water might look nice, but a lot of it is contaminated. Runoff from agricultural land is heavily contaminated.
>> >
>> > Problem is the scale is too large, it will cost a quadrillion dollars whatever they do.
>> >
>> > https://theconversation.com/how-california-could-save-up-its-rain-to-ease-future-droughts-instead-of-watching-epic-atmospheric-river-rainfall-drain-into-the-pacific-197168
>> I wonder how much of an issue contaminated runoff from farm ground is an issue nowadays.
>> Guys of my dad's generation would set something to control application of fertilizer or spray. They guessed at field speed. NH3 application varied by tank pressure. The setting didn't change.
>> Now there are monitors to control application rates for liquid and gas application.
>> Examples here.
>> <https://agriculture.hiniker.com/8160-automatic-rate-controller/>
>> I worked for a farm equipment dealer. He sold these things maybe back in the mid 1980s
>> or so. Yield monitors and soil testing would also help to prevent over application. Farmers will know for sure if a certain nutrient is needed. Avoiding over application saves money. "A penny saved is a penny earned".
>
>It's still a big issue. It's not one size fits all, it depends on location and runoff destination. For at least 35 years I know of, California has been triple cropping using irrigation water from extremely deep wells- over 500 ft. That kind of thing brings up plenty of heavily metals, which accumulate in the surface soil. Then they use a ton of other chemicals too:
>https://www.usgs.gov/mission-areas/water-resources/science/agricultural-contaminants

Some rural areas don't have a city water supply, so residences use
wells. Yes, they are going down over 500 feet now, and a well can cost
over $60K.

There is a depth war, with the big-buck ag users winning. We grow
fruits and nuts and wheat and rice in a desert. Lots of diesel powered
pumps.

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Subject: Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts
From: deanh6...@gmail.com (Dean Hoffman)
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by: Dean Hoffman - Mon, 16 Jan 2023 16:05 UTC

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 8:38:38 AM UTC-6, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Jan 2023 18:22:41 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:44:00 PM UTC-5, dean...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 1:24:32 PM UTC-6, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >> > -instead of watching epic atmospheric river rainfall drain into the Pacific
> >> >
> >> > - or how to poison your aquifers statewide. That water might look nice, but a lot of it is contaminated. Runoff from agricultural land is heavily contaminated.
> >> >
> >> > Problem is the scale is too large, it will cost a quadrillion dollars whatever they do.
> >> >
> >> > https://theconversation.com/how-california-could-save-up-its-rain-to-ease-future-droughts-instead-of-watching-epic-atmospheric-river-rainfall-drain-into-the-pacific-197168
> >> I wonder how much of an issue contaminated runoff from farm ground is an issue nowadays.
> >> Guys of my dad's generation would set something to control application of fertilizer or spray. They guessed at field speed. NH3 application varied by tank pressure. The setting didn't change.
> >> Now there are monitors to control application rates for liquid and gas application.
> >> Examples here.
> >> <https://agriculture.hiniker.com/8160-automatic-rate-controller/>
> >> I worked for a farm equipment dealer. He sold these things maybe back in the mid 1980s
> >> or so. Yield monitors and soil testing would also help to prevent over application. Farmers will know for sure if a certain nutrient is needed. Avoiding over application saves money. "A penny saved is a penny earned".
> >
> >It's still a big issue. It's not one size fits all, it depends on location and runoff destination. For at least 35 years I know of, California has been triple cropping using irrigation water from extremely deep wells- over 500 ft. That kind of thing brings up plenty of heavily metals, which accumulate in the surface soil. Then they use a ton of other chemicals too:
> >https://www.usgs.gov/mission-areas/water-resources/science/agricultural-contaminants
> Some rural areas don't have a city water supply, so residences use
> wells. Yes, they are going down over 500 feet now, and a well can cost
> over $60K.
>
> There is a depth war, with the big-buck ag users winning. We grow
> fruits and nuts and wheat and rice in a desert. Lots of diesel powered
> pumps.

We're spoiled in south central Nebraska. The nearest recently dug well is 750 gpm.
They drilled down to 265 feet although the static water level is 110 feet.
The natural resources districts check ground water levels in the spring. There won't be
pumping restrictions unless the level hits the 1978 level. We're something like 8 feet above that
even though we've had a bit of a drought.
Field corn, seed corn, and soybeans are the most common crops. The dryland farmers stick
to milo and wheat for the most part. My cousin plants soybeans after his wheat is out usually in early July.

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by: Dean Hoffman - Tue, 17 Jan 2023 13:15 UTC

There is a long list of things that make no sense to me. Dam removal is one. The article says 1,700 dams have been removed nationwide since 2012.
<https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/demolish-hydroelectric-dams-klamath-river-controversy/>

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by: Ed Lee - Tue, 17 Jan 2023 18:51 UTC

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 5:15:19 AM UTC-8, dean...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 1:24:32 PM UTC-6, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > -instead of watching epic atmospheric river rainfall drain into the Pacific
> >
> > - or how to poison your aquifers statewide. That water might look nice, but a lot of it is contaminated. Runoff from agricultural land is heavily contaminated.
> >
> > Problem is the scale is too large, it will cost a quadrillion dollars whatever they do.
> >
> > https://theconversation.com/how-california-could-save-up-its-rain-to-ease-future-droughts-instead-of-watching-epic-atmospheric-river-rainfall-drain-into-the-pacific-197168
> There is a long list of things that make no sense to me. Dam removal is one. The article says 1,700 dams have been removed nationwide since 2012.
> <https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/demolish-hydroelectric-dams-klamath-river-controversy/>

Because dams stop fishes from going upstream to spawn.

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by: Brooke Matt - Tue, 17 Jan 2023 21:39 UTC

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From: fizzbint...@that-google-mail-domain.com (Tom Del Rosso)
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Subject: Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts
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by: Tom Del Rosso - Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:32 UTC

John Larkin wrote:
> Some rural areas don't have a city water supply, so residences use
> wells. Yes, they are going down over 500 feet now, and a well can cost
> over $60K.
>
> There is a depth war, with the big-buck ag users winning. We grow
> fruits and nuts and wheat and rice in a desert. Lots of diesel powered
> pumps.

What's wrong with desalination plants?

--
Defund the Thought Police

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Subject: Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts
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by: Jeroen Belleman - Wed, 18 Jan 2023 09:29 UTC

On 2023-01-18 08:32, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> John Larkin wrote:
>> Some rural areas don't have a city water supply, so residences use
>> wells. Yes, they are going down over 500 feet now, and a well can cost
>> over $60K.
>>
>> There is a depth war, with the big-buck ag users winning. We grow
>> fruits and nuts and wheat and rice in a desert. Lots of diesel powered
>> pumps.
>
> What's wrong with desalination plants?
>

Expensive to build and run?

Jeroen Belleman

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by: Dean Hoffman - Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:06 UTC

On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 3:29:36 AM UTC-6, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 2023-01-18 08:32, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> > John Larkin wrote:
> >> Some rural areas don't have a city water supply, so residences use
> >> wells. Yes, they are going down over 500 feet now, and a well can cost
> >> over $60K.
> >>
> >> There is a depth war, with the big-buck ag users winning. We grow
> >> fruits and nuts and wheat and rice in a desert. Lots of diesel powered
> >> pumps.
> >
> > What's wrong with desalination plants?
> >
> Expensive to build and run?
>
> Jeroen Belleman

This article/commentary mentions desalination plants in foreign countries.
<https://amgreatness.com/2023/01/17/californias-mega-water-wasters/>

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From: rmower...@charter.net (Ralph Mowery)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 11:57:46 -0500
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by: Ralph Mowery - Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:57 UTC

In article <3a908ae3-87c5-4c79-92ab-7a0548967f68n@googlegroups.com>,
deanh6929@gmail.com says...
>
> On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 3:29:36 AM UTC-6, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> > On 2023-01-18 08:32, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> > > John Larkin wrote:
> > >> Some rural areas don't have a city water supply, so residences use
> > >> wells. Yes, they are going down over 500 feet now, and a well can cost
> > >> over $60K.
> > >>
> > >> There is a depth war, with the big-buck ag users winning. We grow
> > >> fruits and nuts and wheat and rice in a desert. Lots of diesel powered
> > >> pumps.
> > >
> > > What's wrong with desalination plants?
> > >
> > Expensive to build and run?
> >
> > Jeroen Belleman
>
> This article/commentary mentions desalination plants in foreign countries.
> <https://amgreatness.com/2023/01/17/californias-mega-water-wasters/>
>
>
>

Saw on the news today where California put up a lot of money for a study
on how to save the rain water. That was either 7 or 9 years afo (forgot
which one) but no results or recomendations yet.

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by: whit3rd - Wed, 18 Jan 2023 17:25 UTC

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 11:32:15 PM UTC-8, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> John Larkin wrote:
> > Some rural areas don't have a city water supply, so residences use
> > wells. Yes, they are going down over 500 feet now, and a well can cost
> > over $60K.
> >
> > There is a depth war, with the big-buck ag users winning. We grow
> > fruits and nuts and wheat and rice in a desert. Lots of diesel powered
> > pumps.

> What's wrong with desalination plants?

Salt water is available, at sea level. To get it to crops on land, it has
to be desalinated, and transported uphill, as well as distributed. Rain
would be better, and far cheaper. Glacier and snowpack runoff are also
much more convenient; the desalination and uphill work are done at
zero expense.

Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts

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From: spa...@not.com (Mike Monett VE3BTI)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 18:56:59 -0000 (UTC)
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by: Mike Monett VE3BTI - Wed, 18 Jan 2023 18:56 UTC

whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

>> What's wrong with desalination plants?
>
> Salt water is available, at sea level. To get it to crops on land, it has
> to be desalinated, and transported uphill, as well as distributed. Rain
> would be better, and far cheaper. Glacier and snowpack runoff are also
> much more convenient; the desalination and uphill work are done at
> zero expense.

Only works when there is enough snowfall. See what happened to Lake Mead.

Desalination and pumping only take energy. Thorium Molten Salt Reactors could
supply waste heat for desalination and electrical energy for pumping. The
residue from desalination could provide valuable minerals and hot water for
heating houses to replace gas. This process could supply water for crops year
round, independent of rain.

--
MRM

Subject	Author
How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Fred Bloggs
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Dean Hoffman
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Fred Bloggs
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	John Larkin
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Dean Hoffman
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Tom Del Rosso
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Jeroen Belleman
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Dean Hoffman
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Ralph Mowery
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	whit3rd
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Mike Monett VE3BTI
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	whit3rd
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Fred Bloggs
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Dean Hoffman
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Ed Lee
Re: How California could save up its rain to ease future droughts	Brooke Matt