These idiots think the Ukrainians are going to get the same performance out of the Leopard as the Bundeswehr, which just goes to show how stupid and ignorant they are.

LOL-
The Biden administration is stuck in a standoff with Germany over whether to send tanks to Ukraine ahead of a key meeting of Western defense leaders in Germany on Friday.

In recent days, German officials have indicated they won’t send their Leopard tanks to Ukraine, or allow any other country with the German-made tanks in their inventory to do so, unless the US also agrees to send its M1 Abrams tanks to Kyiv – something the Pentagon has said for months it has no intention of doing given the logistical costs of maintaining them.

Last I read, the Abrams has a scheduled $10M overhaul every 4,000 miles. Of course the U.S. can't just give them tanks without setting up a billion dollar depot somewhere.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/19/politics/us-germany-ukraine-tanks-weapons/index.html

Leopard 2:

Power/weight 2A6: 24.1 PS/t (17.7 kW/t) (23.7hp/tonne)
2A7V: 22.6 PS/t (16.6 kW/t) (22.2hp/tonne)
Heavy tank up to 73 tons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2

M1 Abrams
Power/weight From 26.9 hp/t (20.05 kW/t) to 23.8 hp/t (17.74 kW/t)
Up to 73 tons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

Big heavy tanks like these don't do well in places with Ukraine's mud, they get stuck in a rut.

Russian T-90 is only 48 ton.
Power/weight 18.2 hp/tonne (13.3 kW/tonne) (T-90)
21.5hp/tonne (15 kW/tonne) (T-90A)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90

Seems better suited.

Comparison of individual characteristics is only part of the story. It's the cooperative group tactics employed that make the difference, up to a point.

On 1/20/2023 11:16 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> These idiots think the Ukrainians are going to get the same performance out of the Leopard as the Bundeswehr, which just goes to show how stupid and ignorant they are.
>
> LOL-
> The Biden administration is stuck in a standoff with Germany over whether to send tanks to Ukraine ahead of a key meeting of Western defense leaders in Germany on Friday.
>
> In recent days, German officials have indicated they won’t send their Leopard tanks to Ukraine, or allow any other country with the German-made tanks in their inventory to do so, unless the US also agrees to send its M1 Abrams tanks to Kyiv – something the Pentagon has said for months it has no intention of doing given the logistical costs of maintaining them.

The Rs need an excuse to send tanks to Ukraine, which a lot of them want
to do for the $$$ for their districts despite claiming other wise.

The Biden administration needs an excuse to gut Social Security, which
Ol Joe has wanted to do for 40 years, and the Ds think austerity policy
in general (well, aside from sending as much money as possible to
Ukraine) will help with the all-important wealthy swing voters.

So it's very likely a "compromise" will be found, as aside from a few
outliers on each side both parties are pretty much of one mind on these
topics.

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 11:26:43 AM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
> On 1/20/2023 11:16 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > These idiots think the Ukrainians are going to get the same performance out of the Leopard as the Bundeswehr, which just goes to show how stupid and ignorant they are.
> >
> > LOL-
> > The Biden administration is stuck in a standoff with Germany over whether to send tanks to Ukraine ahead of a key meeting of Western defense leaders in Germany on Friday.
> >
> > In recent days, German officials have indicated they won’t send their Leopard tanks to Ukraine, or allow any other country with the German-made tanks in their inventory to do so, unless the US also agrees to send its M1 Abrams tanks to Kyiv – something the Pentagon has said for months it has no intention of doing given the logistical costs of maintaining them.
> The Rs need an excuse to send tanks to Ukraine, which a lot of them want
> to do for the $$$ for their districts despite claiming other wise.
>
> The Biden administration needs an excuse to gut Social Security, which
> Ol Joe has wanted to do for 40 years, and the Ds think austerity policy
> in general (well, aside from sending as much money as possible to
> Ukraine) will help with the all-important wealthy swing voters.
>
> So it's very likely a "compromise" will be found, as aside from a few
> outliers on each side both parties are pretty much of one mind on these
> topics.

The buzzword these days is "bipartisan" as if that makes it less worse. They seem to regard themselves as the de facto global standard of good decision making.

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:16:51 AM UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> These idiots think the Ukrainians are going to get the same performance out of the Leopard as the Bundeswehr, which just goes to show how stupid and ignorant they are.
>
> LOL-
> The Biden administration is stuck in a standoff with Germany over whether to send tanks to Ukraine ahead of a key meeting of Western defense leaders in Germany on Friday.
>
> In recent days, German officials have indicated they won’t send their Leopard tanks to Ukraine, or allow any other country with the German-made tanks in their inventory to do so, unless the US also agrees to send its M1 Abrams tanks to Kyiv – something the Pentagon has said for months it has no intention of doing given the logistical costs of maintaining them.
>
> Last I read, the Abrams has a scheduled $10M overhaul every 4,000 miles. Of course the U.S. can't just give them tanks without setting up a billion dollar depot somewhere.
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/19/politics/us-germany-ukraine-tanks-weapons/index.html
>
> Leopard 2:
>
> Power/weight 2A6: 24.1 PS/t (17.7 kW/t) (23.7hp/tonne)
> 2A7V: 22.6 PS/t (16.6 kW/t) (22.2hp/tonne)
> Heavy tank up to 73 tons
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2
>
> M1 Abrams
> Power/weight From 26.9 hp/t (20.05 kW/t) to 23.8 hp/t (17.74 kW/t)
> Up to 73 tons
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams
>
> Big heavy tanks like these don't do well in places with Ukraine's mud, they get stuck in a rut.
>
> Russian T-90 is only 48 ton.
> Power/weight 18.2 hp/tonne (13.3 kW/tonne) (T-90)
> 21.5hp/tonne (15 kW/tonne) (T-90A)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90
>
> Seems better suited.
>
> Comparison of individual characteristics is only part of the story. It's the cooperative group tactics employed that make the difference, up to a point.

Send M1s to Poland, so Poland can send their L2 to Ukraine. OK, send some inflatable M1 with L2 to satisfy Germany.

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:29:49 AM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:16:51 AM UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > These idiots think the Ukrainians are going to get the same performance out of the Leopard as the Bundeswehr, which just goes to show how stupid and ignorant they are.

> Send M1s to Poland, so Poland can send their L2 to Ukraine. OK, send some inflatable M1 with L2 to satisfy Germany.

That's a good point; after a Russian drone finds it, we'll all know how up-to-date their
antitank defense tactics and hardware are.

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:25:24 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:29:49 AM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:16:51 AM UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > These idiots think the Ukrainians are going to get the same performance out of the Leopard as the Bundeswehr, which just goes to show how stupid and ignorant they are.
> > Send M1s to Poland, so Poland can send their L2 to Ukraine. OK, send some inflatable M1 with L2 to satisfy Germany.
> That's a good point; after a Russian drone finds it, we'll all know how up-to-date their
> antitank defense tactics and hardware are.

Russian drone isn't going to find it. Germany has already given them a bunch of Gepard's. Something is cueing these vehicles telling them a drone is on the way. And it's important they don't shoot down their own aircraft or an airliner or something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PWJ97KcnmA

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 2:23:39 PM UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:25:24 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
> > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:29:49 AM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:16:51 AM UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > These idiots think the Ukrainians are going to get the same performance out of the Leopard as the Bundeswehr, which just goes to show how stupid and ignorant they are.
> > > Send M1s to Poland, so Poland can send their L2 to Ukraine. OK, send some inflatable M1 with L2 to satisfy Germany.
> > That's a good point; after a Russian drone finds it, we'll all know how up-to-date their
> > antitank defense tactics and hardware are.
> Russian drone isn't going to find it. Germany has already given them a bunch of Gepard's. Something is cueing these vehicles telling them a drone is on the way. And it's important they don't shoot down their own aircraft or an airliner or something.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PWJ97KcnmA

It's not for Russia, but Germany. Germany won't send L2 without US sending M1. US won't send M1 because of jet engine, fuel, maintenance issues, etc, Perhaps someone should come up with an electric version of eM1.

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 2:23:39 PM UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:25:24 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
> > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:29:49 AM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:

> > > Send M1s to Poland, so Poland can send their L2 to Ukraine. OK, send some inflatable M1 with L2 to satisfy Germany.
> > That's a good point; after a Russian drone finds it, we'll all know how up-to-date their
> > antitank defense tactics and hardware are.

> Russian drone isn't going to find it. Germany has already given them a bunch of Gepard's. Something is cueing these vehicles telling them a drone is on the way. And it's important they don't shoot down their own aircraft or an airliner or something.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PWJ97KcnmA

That's OK for city-damage (big-ordinance) drones, but the radar signature from a little reconnaisance
drone won't be accurate enough; artillery fire from outside tank range is the likely threat.

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 6:16:51 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 2:23:39 PM UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:25:24 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:29:49 AM UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
>
> > > > Send M1s to Poland, so Poland can send their L2 to Ukraine. OK, send some inflatable M1 with L2 to satisfy Germany.
> > > That's a good point; after a Russian drone finds it, we'll all know how up-to-date their
> > > antitank defense tactics and hardware are.
>
> > Russian drone isn't going to find it. Germany has already given them a bunch of Gepard's. Something is cueing these vehicles telling them a drone is on the way. And it's important they don't shoot down their own aircraft or an airliner or something.
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PWJ97KcnmA
> That's OK for city-damage (big-ordinance) drones, but the radar signature from a little reconnaisance
> drone won't be accurate enough; artillery fire from outside tank range is the likely threat.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2022/04/11/russias-deadly-artillery-drones-have-a-strange-secret/?sh=3f30a9c7779d

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/krasnopol.htm#:~:text=The%20Krasnopol%20is%20a%20Russian,water%20targets%20and%20so%20on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlan-10
Orlan-10 with laser designator:

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukrainian-air-defense-shot-down-the-orlan-30-drone/#:~:text=%E2%80%9COrlan%2D30%E2%80%9D%20is%20a,operating%20time%20is%208%20hours.

whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Russian drone isn't going to find it. Germany has already given them a
>> bunch of Gepard's. Something is cueing these vehicles telling them a
>> drone is on the way. And it's important they don't shoot down their own
>> aircraft or an airliner or something.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PWJ97KcnmA
>
> That's OK for city-damage (big-ordinance) drones, but the radar
> signature from a little reconnaisance drone won't be accurate enough;
> artillery fire from outside tank range is the likely threat.

From the video:

Gepard's radar can detect Iranian drones 16 km away. Three shells from each
barrel is enough to bring down the drone. The problem is Switzerland won't
ship the 35mm ammunition to Ukraine. The search for alternate suppliers is
underway.

--
MRM

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:30:24 AM UTC-5, Mike Monett VE3BTI wrote:
> whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Russian drone isn't going to find it. Germany has already given them a
> >> bunch of Gepard's. Something is cueing these vehicles telling them a
> >> drone is on the way. And it's important they don't shoot down their own
> >> aircraft or an airliner or something.
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PWJ97KcnmA
> >
> > That's OK for city-damage (big-ordinance) drones, but the radar
> > signature from a little reconnaisance drone won't be accurate enough;
> > artillery fire from outside tank range is the likely threat.
> From the video:
>
> Gepard's radar can detect Iranian drones 16 km away. Three shells from each
> barrel is enough to bring down the drone. The problem is Switzerland won't
> ship the 35mm ammunition to Ukraine. The search for alternate suppliers is
> underway.

Maximum range of the 35mm guns on the Gepard is 4-6 km. If the laser designator range on the Orlan is in excess of that, they can still perform their mission and avoid being shot down, by a Gepard anyway. The question is does the drone know where the Gepard is. If they do, that would be their priority target I would think.

>
>
>
>
> --
> MRM