I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer?

On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
> The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer?

It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of
computer?!

It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most
would use the term - was Colossus:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>

--

Jeff

On 1/24/2023 10:08 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
> The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer?
>

In WW2 there were electromechanical gun laying computers, the analog
computer could continually integrate the position from radar data to get
a target's velocity vector, and along with the range compute an
appropriate gun super elevation.

Here's a video series that shows how they worked, the mechanical
ball-integrator was an ingenious contraption:

<https://youtu.be/lr1uK24SND8>

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:08:15 AM UTC-5, dean...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
> The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer?

These people lie about everything but the article is a start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_I_Fire_Control_Computer

Analog is just as good as digital- actually way better for the technology of the day- IF the precision is good enough.

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:31:40 AM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
> On 1/24/2023 10:08 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> > I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
> > The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer?
> >
> In WW2 there were electromechanical gun laying computers, the analog
> computer could continually integrate the position from radar data to get
> a target's velocity vector, and along with the range compute an
> appropriate gun super elevation.
>
> Here's a video series that shows how they worked, the mechanical
> ball-integrator was an ingenious contraption:
>
>
> <https://youtu.be/lr1uK24SND8>

Guns also contended with surface targets, popularly know as "other ships." They were also employed against land targets in the Pacific islands, where they proved to be horrendously ineffective. They weren't worth a damn during the D-Day invasion, as in not used, because the U.S. Navy was scared to death of the German gunnery and stayed out of range. That's how 500 Germans manning machine installations held off 70,000 Americans for a whole day- frustrating Bradley to the point of planning to send landing craft back in to evacuate the remainder of the landing force.

On 1/24/2023 8:08 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns,
> artillery, ships, whatever. The narrator claimed the first computer might've
> been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such
> a thing as the first computer?

Doesn't that depend on how you define a computer?

Is a device that fills ONE role really describe a computer
(as we know it)? Or, does it need to be "repurposable"
(programmable)? Was the antikythera a computer? Or,
just an "instrument"? Where is the line between the two?

On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 07:08:10 -0800 (PST), Dean Hoffman
<deanh6929@gmail.com> wrote:

> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
>The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer?
>

Astronomers a few centuries ago hired human computers (i.e. often
unmarried females) to do their routine orbital calculations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)

Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>>     I was watching the show Mail Call.  It talks of anything
>> military.   Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
>> The narrator claimed the first computer might've been  on the USS
>> Missouri.   It aimed the guns on the ship.   Is there such a thing as
>> the first computer?
>
> It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of
> computer?!
>
> It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most
> would use the term -  was Colossus:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
>

Gunlaying analog computers go back to WW1. One of the reasons that the
Battle of Jutland was a more even affair than expected was that more of
the German ships had director gun laying than the British.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> > I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
> > The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer?
> It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of
> computer?!
>
> It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most
> would use the term - was Colossus:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>

As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about.

"the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program computer, being programmed by switches and plugs.

Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not.

In WWII, most targeting computers were analog.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman wrote:
> > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> > > I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
> > > The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer?
> > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of
> > computer?!
> >
> > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most
> > would use the term - was Colossus:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
> As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about.
>
> "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program computer, being programmed by switches and plugs.
>
> Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not.

The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron.

>
> In WWII, most targeting computers were analog.
>
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman
>> wrote:
>>> On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>>>> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything
>>>> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. The narrator
>>>> claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri.
>>>> It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the
>>>> first computer?
>>> It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type
>>> of computer?!
>>>
>>> It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps
>>> most would use the term - was Colossus:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
>> As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about.
>>
>> "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is
>> how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program
>> computer, being programmed by switches and plugs.
>>
>> Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another
>> branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding
>> targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a
>> computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I
>> can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and
>> used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not.
>
> The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized
> bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady
> and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making
> the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought
> anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there
> would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude
> drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at
> least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and
> money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron.

The pre-war doctrine was that B17s in combat box formation were
self-defending, and so could be used for daylight precision bombing.

'T'weren't so, but it wasn't the Sperry or Norden folks' fault. The
Sperry in particular was a beautiful piece of kit for its day.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:24:38 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:
> > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> >> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything
> >> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
> >> The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS
> >> Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as
> >> the first computer?
> >
> > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of
> > computer?!
> >
> > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most
> > would use the term - was Colossus:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
> >
> Gunlaying analog computers go back to WW1. One of the reasons that the
> Battle of Jutland was a more even affair than expected was that more of
> the German ships had director gun laying than the British.

Excuses, excuses. All the German ships were outfitted with multiple high resolution coincident image optical range finders. Only a few of the British ships had them. The Germans also used a technique called the "ladder" which was a method of firing a salvo of slightly offset projectiles to get a bracket on the target before they let loose the death blow. The British had never seen that before and started using it themselves later in the war.

>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
> --
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> Principal Consultant
> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
>
> http://electrooptical.net
> http://hobbs-eo.com

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:27 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman
> >> wrote:
> >>> On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> >>>> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything
> >>>> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. The narrator
> >>>> claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri.
> >>>> It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the
> >>>> first computer?
> >>> It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type
> >>> of computer?!
> >>>
> >>> It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps
> >>> most would use the term - was Colossus:
> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
> >> As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about.
> >>
> >> "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is
> >> how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program
> >> computer, being programmed by switches and plugs.
> >>
> >> Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another
> >> branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding
> >> targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a
> >> computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I
> >> can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and
> >> used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not.
> >
> > The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized
> > bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady
> > and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making
> > the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought
> > anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there
> > would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude
> > drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at
> > least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and
> > money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron.
> The pre-war doctrine was that B17s in combat box formation were
> self-defending, and so could be used for daylight precision bombing.
>
> 'T'weren't so, but it wasn't the Sperry or Norden folks' fault. The
> Sperry in particular was a beautiful piece of kit for its day.

That has nothing to do with the horrendously poor accuracy of the bombsight even under ideal conditions. They were lucky to get within miles of the target. They used the bombsight for the A-bomb drops, and both were off target by 2-3 miles. The CEP for raids over Europe was something like 10 miles.
The AA guns shot down more bombers than fighters IIRC.

> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
>
> --
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> Principal Consultant
> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
>
> http://electrooptical.net
> http://hobbs-eo.com

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:42:40 PM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman wrote:
> > > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> > > > I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
> > > > The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer?
> > > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of
> > > computer?!
> > >
> > > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most
> > > would use the term - was Colossus:
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
> > As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about.
> >
> > "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program computer, being programmed by switches and plugs.
> >
> > Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not.
> The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron.

Yes, and it takes one to know one. God, you are such a downer. They won the f**king war. Why don't you use technology from the time and design one better.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:59:34 PM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:24:38 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> > Jeff Layman wrote:
> > > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> > >> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything
> > >> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
> > >> The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS
> > >> Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as
> > >> the first computer?
> > >
> > > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of
> > > computer?!
> > >
> > > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most
> > > would use the term - was Colossus:
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
> > >
> > Gunlaying analog computers go back to WW1. One of the reasons that the
> > Battle of Jutland was a more even affair than expected was that more of
> > the German ships had director gun laying than the British.
> Excuses, excuses. All the German ships were outfitted with multiple high resolution coincident image optical range finders. Only a few of the British ships had them.

What's the saying? Don't bring an optical range finder to a RADAR fight.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 25/01/23 02:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> Is there such a thing as the first computer?

Not sure that single-purpose things like gun-laying or Colossus
qualified. The Egyptians must have had devices for computing geometry, too.

I think "computer" should be reserved for things that are equivalent to
a Universal Turing Machine. That rules out Colossus.

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:32:15 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:59:34 PM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:24:38 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> > > Jeff Layman wrote:
> > > > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> > > >> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything
> > > >> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
> > > >> The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS
> > > >> Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as
> > > >> the first computer?
> > > >
> > > > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of
> > > > computer?!
> > > >
> > > > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most
> > > > would use the term - was Colossus:
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
> > > >
> > > Gunlaying analog computers go back to WW1. One of the reasons that the
> > > Battle of Jutland was a more even affair than expected was that more of
> > > the German ships had director gun laying than the British.
> > Excuses, excuses. All the German ships were outfitted with multiple high resolution coincident image optical range finders. Only a few of the British ships had them.
> What's the saying? Don't bring an optical range finder to a RADAR fight.

The earliest radars used on ships, actually at the very end of the 19th century, were used for collision avoidance in congested harbor settings. AFAIK there were no naval radars in ww1. The primary motivation for militaries to develop later radars was to detect air targets.

>
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:30:30 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:42:40 PM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman wrote:
> > > > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> > > > > I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
> > > > > The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer?
> > > > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of
> > > > computer?!
> > > >
> > > > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most
> > > > would use the term - was Colossus:
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
> > > As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about.
> > >
> > > "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program computer, being programmed by switches and plugs.
> > >
> > > Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not.
> > The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron.
> Yes, and it takes one to know one. God, you are such a downer. They won the f**king war. Why don't you use technology from the time and design one better.

There was a synthetic aperture radar navigation-/bomb-sight in development at the time, and demonstration prototypes were fitted into test bombers, but it never received the attention it needed to be made into something operational during war.

>
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 21:56:10 UTC, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:30:30 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:42:40 PM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman wrote:
> > > > > On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> > > > > > I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever.
> > > > > > The narrator claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the first computer?
> > > > > It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type of
> > > > > computer?!
> > > > >
> > > > > It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps most
> > > > > would use the term - was Colossus:
> > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
> > > > As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about.
> > > >
> > > > "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program computer, being programmed by switches and plugs.
> > > >
> > > > Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not.
> > > The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron.
> > Yes, and it takes one to know one. God, you are such a downer. They won the f**king war. Why don't you use technology from the time and design one better.
> There was a synthetic aperture radar navigation-/bomb-sight in development at the time, and demonstration prototypes were fitted into test bombers, but it never received the attention it needed to be made into something operational during war.

I do remember seeing a radar synthetic aperture airborne computer on the bench when I
visited RSRE, Malvern in the late 1970s. What was striking about it was the relatively small size
along with the hose connectors for the cooling water.

John

On January 24, bitrex wrote:
> In WW2 there were electromechanical gun laying computers, the analog
> computer could continually integrate the position from radar data to get
> a target's velocity vector, and along with the range compute an
> appropriate gun super elevation.
> Here's a video series that shows how they worked, the mechanical
> ball-integrator was an ingenious contraption:
> <https://youtu.be/lr1uK24SND8>

I recall reading about submarine warfare in the Pacific. The boat had
a gizmo, the "is was", which somehow computed the aim of the torpedo
barrel. "the triangle of sub tactics"

The captain read the target's co-ordinates, through the periscope.
Presumably the speed was simply dx/dt, probably timed with a
wrist watch. Unclear how they estimated its range.

--
Rich

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 6:13:30 PM UTC-5, RichD wrote:
> On January 24, bitrex wrote:
> > In WW2 there were electromechanical gun laying computers, the analog
> > computer could continually integrate the position from radar data to get
> > a target's velocity vector, and along with the range compute an
> > appropriate gun super elevation.
> > Here's a video series that shows how they worked, the mechanical
> > ball-integrator was an ingenious contraption:
> > <https://youtu.be/lr1uK24SND8>
> I recall reading about submarine warfare in the Pacific. The boat had
> a gizmo, the "is was", which somehow computed the aim of the torpedo
> barrel. "the triangle of sub tactics"
>
> The captain read the target's co-ordinates, through the periscope.
> Presumably the speed was simply dx/dt, probably timed with a
> wrist watch. Unclear how they estimated its range.

Submarines could do that with a standard optical approach.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:27 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything
>>>>>> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. The narrator
>>>>>> claimed the first computer might've been on the USS
>>>>>> Missouri. It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a
>>>>>> thing as the first computer?
>>>>> It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a
>>>>> type of computer?!
>>>>>
>>>>> It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as
>>>>> perhaps most would use the term - was Colossus:
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
>>>> As you say, you first have to define what you are talking
>>>> about.
>>>>
>>>> "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer"
>>>> is how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored
>>>> program computer, being programmed by switches and plugs.
>>>>
>>>> Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another
>>>> branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was
>>>> finding targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there
>>>> was a computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty
>>>> interesting. I can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it
>>>> was WWII vintage and used rather archaic components like delay
>>>> lines. Maybe not.
>>>
>>> The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized
>>> bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it
>>> steady and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical
>>> sight, making the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who
>>> would have thought anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern
>>> Europe, or that there would be a requirement for nighttime
>>> bombings, and high altitude drops? Can we say morons? And the
>>> product was the culmination of at least 15 years of development.
>>> You can give a moron all the time and money in the world, and in
>>> the end you're still left with a moron.
>> The pre-war doctrine was that B17s in combat box formation were
>> self-defending, and so could be used for daylight precision
>> bombing.
>>
>> 'T'weren't so, but it wasn't the Sperry or Norden folks' fault.
>> The Sperry in particular was a beautiful piece of kit for its day.
>
> That has nothing to do with the horrendously poor accuracy of the
> bombsight even under ideal conditions. They were lucky to get within
> miles of the target.

Yer cracked. But we knew that. ;)

> They used the bombsight for the A-bomb drops,
> and both were off target by 2-3 miles.

Ya can't blame a bomb sight for somebody dropping when the target isn't
even in the field of view.

And the accuracy was much better than that, especially in Nagasaki. A
20-kT bomb isn't that dangerous if it's two or three miles away.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(Who lives exactly the wrong distance from Manhattan if there's a real
nuclear war.)

On 24/01/2023 9:04 pm, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:27 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything
>>>>>> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. The narrator
>>>>>> claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri.
>>>>>> It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the
>>>>>> first computer?
>>>>> It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type
>>>>> of computer?!
>>>>>
>>>>> It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps
>>>>> most would use the term - was Colossus:
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
>>>> As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about.
>>>>
>>>> "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is
>>>> how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program
>>>> computer, being programmed by switches and plugs.
>>>>
>>>> Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another
>>>> branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding
>>>> targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a
>>>> computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I
>>>> can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and
>>>> used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not.
>>>
>>> The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized
>>> bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady
>>> and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making
>>> the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought
>>> anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there
>>> would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude
>>> drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at
>>> least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and
>>> money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron.
>> The pre-war doctrine was that B17s in combat box formation were
>> self-defending, and so could be used for daylight precision bombing.
>>
>> 'T'weren't so, but it wasn't the Sperry or Norden folks' fault. The
>> Sperry in particular was a beautiful piece of kit for its day.
>
> That has nothing to do with the horrendously poor accuracy of the bombsight even under ideal conditions. They were lucky to get within miles of the target. They used the bombsight for the A-bomb drops, and both were off target by 2-3 miles. The CEP for raids over Europe was something like 10 miles.
> The AA guns shot down more bombers than fighters IIRC.
>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
>> Principal Consultant
>> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
>> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
>> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
>>
>> http://electrooptical.net
>> http://hobbs-eo.com

Speaking of horrendously poor accuracy the British Royal Air Force
calculated that only 1% of their bombs landed within a mile of the
intended target. I once met a RAF WW2 navigator/bomb aimer who said some
nights their designated target was the letter "R" - meaning where R was
within the word BERLIN on their charts. He later flew with Mosquito
pathfinders using Gee/Oboe navaids and H2S RADAR so although his bomb
placement improved he seriously doubted the accuracy of main force that
followed.

piglet

On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 3:57:33 PM UTC-6, erichp...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 24/01/2023 9:04 pm, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:58:27 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >> Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:15:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> On 24/01/2023 15:08, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> >>>>>> I was watching the show Mail Call. It talks of anything
> >>>>>> military. Guns, artillery, ships, whatever. The narrator
> >>>>>> claimed the first computer might've been on the USS Missouri.
> >>>>>> It aimed the guns on the ship. Is there such a thing as the
> >>>>>> first computer?
> >>>>> It depends what you mean by "computer". Isn't an abacus a type
> >>>>> of computer?!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's pretty widely accepted that the first computer - as perhaps
> >>>>> most would use the term - was Colossus:
> >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer>
> >>>> As you say, you first have to define what you are talking about.
> >>>>
> >>>> "the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer" is
> >>>> how Wikipedia talks about Colossus. It was not a stored program
> >>>> computer, being programmed by switches and plugs.
> >>>>
> >>>> Code breaking drove a branch of computing technology. Another
> >>>> branch that was also desperately needed in the war, was finding
> >>>> targeting solutions. I don't recall the name, but there was a
> >>>> computer designed to be airborne, that was pretty interesting. I
> >>>> can't seem to find it on the web. I thought it was WWII vintage and
> >>>> used rather archaic components like delay lines. Maybe not.
> >>>
> >>> The "targeting" solution was done by analog in a gyro stabilized
> >>> bombsight, which also took control of the aircraft to fly it steady
> >>> and constant speed. The primary sensor was an optical sight, making
> >>> the whole idea of it a total piece of crap. Who would have thought
> >>> anyone would encounter cloud cover in northern Europe, or that there
> >>> would be a requirement for nighttime bombings, and high altitude
> >>> drops? Can we say morons? And the product was the culmination of at
> >>> least 15 years of development. You can give a moron all the time and
> >>> money in the world, and in the end you're still left with a moron.
> >> The pre-war doctrine was that B17s in combat box formation were
> >> self-defending, and so could be used for daylight precision bombing.
> >>
> >> 'T'weren't so, but it wasn't the Sperry or Norden folks' fault. The
> >> Sperry in particular was a beautiful piece of kit for its day.
> >
> > That has nothing to do with the horrendously poor accuracy of the bombsight even under ideal conditions. They were lucky to get within miles of the target. They used the bombsight for the A-bomb drops, and both were off target by 2-3 miles. The CEP for raids over Europe was something like 10 miles.
> > The AA guns shot down more bombers than fighters IIRC.
> >
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Phil Hobbs
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> >> Principal Consultant
> >> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
> >> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
> >> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
> >>
> >> http://electrooptical.net
> >> http://hobbs-eo.com
> Speaking of horrendously poor accuracy the British Royal Air Force
> calculated that only 1% of their bombs landed within a mile of the
> intended target. I once met a RAF WW2 navigator/bomb aimer who said some
> nights their designated target was the letter "R" - meaning where R was
> within the word BERLIN on their charts. He later flew with Mosquito
> pathfinders using Gee/Oboe navaids and H2S RADAR so although his bomb
> placement improved he seriously doubted the accuracy of main force that
> followed.
>
> piglet

There's a little bit here about Operation Starfish. The British set big bonfires away from actual cities to confuse German night bombers. It did work.
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2286276/Extraordinary-story-WW2s-Starfish-Sites-designed-look-like-burning-cities-saved-2-500-lives.html>

On January 25, erichp...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Speaking of horrendously poor accuracy the British Royal Air Force
> calculated that only 1% of their bombs landed within a mile of the
> intended target.

But on D Day and afterward, the Luftwaffe was invisible. The most
reasonable explanation is that their industrial sector had been wrecked.

The aerial bombing campaign was effective, evidently.

--
Rich