"The point is that humans have 30-50 % less water turnover compared to
their close living relatives, the great apes. What selection pressure
would force humans to evolve such a mechanism? Water stress would be
an obvious candidate. Where would they most likely encounter such
stress?"

I'm somewhat surprised you haven't noticed what these researchers have done.. They have selectively chosen to compare modern humans with extant great apes. Modern humans have over the last 50-70,000 years spread across the planet and can live in almost every environment from space rockets and space stations, to submarines, from polar ice sheets to tropical forests, aboard ships and in mobile home vans, aircraft to underground trains. Extant great apes that are not incarcerated in zoos, live in only two habitats - tropical forests (chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas) and savannah landscapes (some chimpanzees). The first habitat is water wealthy, the second is water poor.. Comparing the anatomical water conservation capabilities of the first group of apes with those of humans is completely invalid as these animals have never had to go without water for any appreciable amount of time during the last many millions of years. They are surrounded by water, it is in their food, it collects in hollows in trees, it streams through their habitats in rivers and collects in ponds, swamps, marshes and lakes. These animals have not evolved the means to conserve water because there has never been a need to do so. Savannah chimpanzees are very different. They have evolved a variety of ways to conserve water and these methods are quite different from those adopted during relatively recent times by modern human beings and are likely different from methods adopted by hunter-gatherers in desert regions of the world. The San people of Botswana are great conservers of water (these days) but genetic studies tell us that these people have been living in this area in an unbroken lineage for at least 200,000 years. 200,000 years ago the Kalahari Desert was not a desert, the area was a vast and amazingly rich and diverse wetland dominated by a lake twice the size of modern Lake Victoria and kept full of water by an equally vast swampy delta fueled by huge rivers such as the Okavango and the Zambesi. In those days the proto-San were not living in a desert, they had no need to conserve water and they almost certainly did not. 10,000 years ago the vast lake completed its transition into the biggest salt pan in the world and the area of former wetland transitioned into desert. During these 10,000 years San hunter-gatherers developed their water saving / conserving specialist anatomies. Far from being anything to do with Pleistocene savannah dwelling, these traits are of very recent origin. What's more these researchers damn well know it! Their objective is to do everything in their power to undermine any suggestion that humanity evolved in association with the aquatic environment. People like you aid and abet their deceit.

Op vrijdag 29 oktober 2021 om 12:31:32 UTC+2 schreef Ralph Cook:

> I'm somewhat surprised you haven't noticed what these researchers have done. They have selectively chosen to compare modern humans with extant great apes. Modern humans have over the last 50-70,000 years spread across the planet and can live in almost every environment from space rockets and space stations, to submarines, from polar ice sheets to tropical forests, aboard ships and in mobile home vans, aircraft to underground trains. Extant great apes that are not incarcerated in zoos, live in only two habitats - tropical forests (chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas) and savannah landscapes (some chimpanzees). The first habitat is water wealthy, the second is water poor. Comparing the anatomical water conservation capabilities of the first group of apes with those of humans is completely invalid as these animals have never had to go without water for any appreciable amount of time during the last many millions of years. They are surrounded by water, it is in their food, it collects in hollows in trees, it streams through their habitats in rivers and collects in ponds, swamps, marshes and lakes. These animals have not evolved the means to conserve water because there has never been a need to do so. Savannah chimpanzees are very different. They have evolved a variety of ways to conserve water and these methods are quite different from those adopted during relatively recent times by modern human beings and are likely different from methods adopted by hunter-gatherers in desert regions of the world. The San people of Botswana are great conservers of water (these days) but genetic studies tell us that these people have been living in this area in an unbroken lineage for at least 200,000 years. 200,000 years ago the Kalahari Desert was not a desert, the area was a vast and amazingly rich and diverse wetland dominated by a lake twice the size of modern Lake Victoria and kept full of water by an equally vast swampy delta fueled by huge rivers such as the Okavango and the Zambesi. In those days the proto-San were not living in a desert, they had no need to conserve water and they almost certainly did not. 10,000 years ago the vast lake completed its transition into the biggest salt pan in the world and the area of former wetland transitioned into desert. During these 10,000 years San hunter-gatherers developed their water saving / conserving specialist anatomies. Far from being anything to do with Pleistocene savannah dwelling, these traits are of very recent origin. What's more these researchers damn well know it! Their objective is to do everything in their power to undermine any suggestion that humanity evolved in association with the aquatic environment. People like you aid and abet their deceit.

:-)

On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 6:31:32 AM UTC-4, Ralph Cook wrote:
> "The point is that humans have 30-50 % less water turnover compared to
> their close living relatives, the great apes. What selection pressure
> would force humans to evolve such a mechanism? Water stress would be
> an obvious candidate. Where would they most likely encounter such
> stress?"
> I'm somewhat surprised you haven't noticed what these researchers have done.

We did.
They have selectively chosen to compare modern humans with extant great apes.

Yes. All the extinct ones are dead and unavailable for testing.
Modern humans have over the last 50-70,000 years spread across the planet and can live in almost every environment from space rockets and space stations, to submarines, from polar ice sheets to tropical forests, aboard ships and in mobile home vans, aircraft to underground trains.

Biologically humans and apes haven't changed much in 50,000 years.
Extant great apes that are not incarcerated in zoos, live in only two habitats - tropical forests (chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas) and savannah landscapes (some chimpanzees).

Also montaine cloud forests.
The first habitat is water wealthy, the second is water poor. Comparing the anatomical water conservation capabilities of the first group of apes with those of humans is completely invalid as these animals have never had to go without water for any appreciable amount of time during the last many millions of years. They are surrounded by water, it is in their food, it collects in hollows in trees, it streams through their habitats in rivers and collects in ponds, swamps, marshes and lakes. These animals have not evolved the means to conserve water because there has never been a need to do so.

The same could be said of human Pygmies, who typically camp near shallow crystalline streams.

Savannah chimpanzees are very different. They have evolved a variety of ways to conserve water and these methods are quite different from those adopted during relatively recent times by modern human beings and are likely different from methods adopted by hunter-gatherers in desert regions of the world. The San people of Botswana are great conservers of water (these days) but genetic studies tell us that these people have been living in this area in an unbroken lineage for at least 200,000 years.

Cite please.
200,000 years ago the Kalahari Desert was not a desert, the area was a vast and amazingly rich and diverse wetland dominated by a lake twice the size of modern Lake Victoria and kept full of water by an equally vast swampy delta fueled by huge rivers such as the Okavango and the Zambesi.

Cite please.
In those days the proto-San were not living in a desert, they had no need to conserve water and they almost certainly did not. 10,000 years ago the vast lake completed its transition into the biggest salt pan in the world and the area of former wetland transitioned into desert.

Cite please.
During these 10,000 years San hunter-gatherers developed their water saving / conserving specialist anatomies.

10,000 years is a very short time for distant populations speaking very distant languages to have all developed such anatomies.
Far from being anything to do with Pleistocene savannah dwelling, these traits are of very recent origin.

Cite please.
What's more these researchers damn well know it!

Cite please.
Their objective is to do everything in their power to undermine any suggestion that humanity evolved in association with the aquatic environment.

Cite please.

People like you aid and abet their deceit.

It's a conspiracy?

Ralph Cook wrote:
> "The point is that humans have 30-50 % less water turnover compared to
> their close living relatives, the great apes. What selection pressure
> would force humans to evolve such a mechanism? Water stress would be
> an obvious candidate. Where would they most likely encounter such
> stress?"

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045

> I'm somewhat surprised you haven't noticed what these researchers have done. They
have selectively chosen to compare modern humans with extant great apes.
Modern

As opposed to extinct apes?

humans have over the last 50-70,000 years spread across the planet and can
live in almost every environment from space rockets and space stations, to
submarines, from polar ice sheets to tropical forests, aboard ships and in
mobile home vans, aircraft to underground trains. Extant great apes that
are not incarcerated in zoos, live in only two habitats - tropical forests
(chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas) and savannah landscapes (some
chimpanzees). The first habitat is water wealthy, the second is water
poor. Comparing the anatomical water conservation

Their range has decreased considerably due to human pressure.

capabilities of the first group of apes with those of humans is completely
invalid as these animals have never had to go without water for any
appreciable amount of time during the last many millions of years. They
are surrounded by water, it is in their food, it collects in hollows in
trees, it streams through their habitats in rivers and collects in ponds,
swamps, marshes and lakes. These animals have not evolved the means to
conserve water because there has never been a need to do so. Savannah
chimpanzees are very different. They have evolved a variety of ways to
conserve water and these methods are quite different from those adopted
during relatively recent times by modern human beings and are likely
different from methods adopted by hunter-gatherers in desert regions of
the world. The San people of Botswana are great conservers of water (these
days) but genetic studies tell us that these people have been living in
this area in an unbroken lineage for at least 200,000 years. 200,000 years
ago the Kalahari Desert was not a desert, the area was a vast and
amazingly rich and diverse wetland dominated by a lake twice the size of
modern Lake Victoria and kept full of water by an equally vast swampy
delta fueled by huge rivers such as the Okavango and the Zambesi. In those
days the proto-San were not living in a desert, they had no need to
conserve water and they almost certainly did not. 10,000 years ago the
vast lake completed its transition into the biggest salt pan in the world
and the area of former wetland transitioned into desert. During these
10,000 years San hunter-gatherers developed their water saving /
conserving specialist anatomies. Far from being anything to do with
Pleistocene savannah dwelling, these traits are of very recent origin.
What's more these researchers damn well know it! Their objective is to do
everything in their power to undermine any suggestion that humanity
evolved in association with the aquatic environment. People like you aid
and abet their deceit.

No, they go where the evidence leads them.