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tech / rec.photo.digital / Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?geoff
+- Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?nospam
`* Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?Alfred Molon
 `* Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?Carlos E.R.
  +* Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?nospam
  |`* Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?geoff
  | `* Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?nospam
  |  `* Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?geoff
  |   `- Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?nospam
  `* Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?Alfred Molon
   `* Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?Carlos E.R.
    `- Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?nospam

1
Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

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 by: geoff - Mon, 18 Apr 2022 03:55 UTC

On 18/04/2022 11:38 am, RichA wrote:
> I wonder what the difference is for? By scientific, I include consumer astronomy cameras which can cost as little as $200.00. Seems like it might
> tie-in to processor power as consumer astronomy cameras are tied to laptops or tablets.

???? Do you mean that 'they' use 16-bit processors ?

geoff

Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

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 by: nospam - Mon, 18 Apr 2022 07:50 UTC

In article <j9ydnehwAuO2fMH_nZ2dnUU7-c_NnZ2d@giganews.com>, geoff
<geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

> On 18/04/2022 11:38 am, RichA wrote:
> > I wonder what the difference is for? By scientific, I include consumer
> > astronomy cameras which can cost as little as $200.00. Seems like it might
> > tie-in to processor power as consumer astronomy cameras are tied to laptops
> > or tablets.
>
> ???? Do you mean that 'they' use 16-bit processors ?

16 bit a/d converter.

Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

<fKD7K.801823$xr1.799295@fx02.ams1>

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 by: Alfred Molon - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:05 UTC

Am 18.04.2022 um 05:55 schrieb geoff:
> On 18/04/2022 11:38 am, RichA wrote:
>> I wonder what the difference is for?  By scientific, I include
>> consumer astronomy cameras which can cost as little as $200.00.  Seems
>> like it might
>> tie-in to processor power as consumer astronomy cameras are tied to
>> laptops or tablets.
>
> ????  Do you mean that 'they' use 16-bit processors ?

Perhaps the A/D converters of these cameras have 16 bit?
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

<vgn3ji-81s.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
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Subject: Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:51 UTC

On 2022-04-19 21:05, Alfred Molon wrote:
> Am 18.04.2022 um 05:55 schrieb geoff:
>> On 18/04/2022 11:38 am, RichA wrote:
>>> I wonder what the difference is for?  By scientific, I include
>>> consumer astronomy cameras which can cost as little as $200.00.
>>> Seems like it might
>>> tie-in to processor power as consumer astronomy cameras are tied to
>>> laptops or tablets.
>>
>> ????  Do you mean that 'they' use 16-bit processors ?
>
> Perhaps the A/D converters of these cameras have 16 bit?

Having more bits in A/D increases noise.

Astronomy "cameras" I have seen include a Peltier cell to cool the
sensor and reduce thermal noise. Probably more expensive units use
liquid CO2 or N2.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

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 by: nospam - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:09 UTC

In article <vgn3ji-81s.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>
> Having more bits in A/D increases noise.

nope. having more bits increases dynamic range, making noise less of an
issue.

> Astronomy "cameras" I have seen include a Peltier cell to cool the
> sensor and reduce thermal noise. Probably more expensive units use
> liquid CO2 or N2.

that's separate issue and unrelated to bit depth.

Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

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 by: geoff - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 21:24 UTC

On 21/04/2022 1:09 am, nospam wrote:
> In article <vgn3ji-81s.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> Having more bits in A/D increases noise.
>
> nope. having more bits increases dynamic range, making noise less of an
> issue.
>
>> Astronomy "cameras" I have seen include a Peltier cell to cool the
>> sensor and reduce thermal noise. Probably more expensive units use
>> liquid CO2 or N2.
>
> that's separate issue and unrelated to bit depth.

Surely it relates to 'useful' bit depth - the lower the thermal noise,
the greater dynamic range achievable.

geoff

Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

<V%_7K.142667$Mih.52645@fx05.ams1>

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 by: Alfred Molon - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 21:34 UTC

Am 19.04.2022 um 23:51 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
>
> Having more bits in A/D increases noise.

More bits reduce the quantisation noise.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras forum at
https://groups.io/g/myolympus
https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

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 by: nospam - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 21:37 UTC

In article <Zo-dnaFrT-2K5_3_nZ2dnUU7-cednZ2d@giganews.com>, geoff
<geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

> >> Having more bits in A/D increases noise.
> >
> > nope. having more bits increases dynamic range, making noise less of an
> > issue.
> >
> >> Astronomy "cameras" I have seen include a Peltier cell to cool the
> >> sensor and reduce thermal noise. Probably more expensive units use
> >> liquid CO2 or N2.
> >
> > that's separate issue and unrelated to bit depth.
>
> Surely it relates to 'useful' bit depth - the lower the thermal noise,
> the greater dynamic range achievable.

true, but thermal noise in the sensor is still independent of bit depth
of the a/d.

Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

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 by: geoff - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 03:29 UTC

On 21/04/2022 9:37 am, nospam wrote:
> In article <Zo-dnaFrT-2K5_3_nZ2dnUU7-cednZ2d@giganews.com>, geoff
> <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:
>
>>>> Having more bits in A/D increases noise.
>>>
>>> nope. having more bits increases dynamic range, making noise less of an
>>> issue.
>>>
>>>> Astronomy "cameras" I have seen include a Peltier cell to cool the
>>>> sensor and reduce thermal noise. Probably more expensive units use
>>>> liquid CO2 or N2.
>>>
>>> that's separate issue and unrelated to bit depth.
>>
>> Surely it relates to 'useful' bit depth - the lower the thermal noise,
>> the greater dynamic range achievable.
>
> true, but thermal noise in the sensor is still independent of bit depth
> of the a/d.

That's a bit of a backwards way of looking at it !

Lower thermal noise potentially allows more benefit to be obtained when
used with a higher bit-depth A-D.

geoff

Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

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Subject: Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?
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 by: nospam - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:49 UTC

In article <CYGdnTYjlac7Uv3_nZ2dnUU7-ROdnZ2d@giganews.com>, geoff
<geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

> >>>> Having more bits in A/D increases noise.
> >>>
> >>> nope. having more bits increases dynamic range, making noise less of an
> >>> issue.
> >>>
> >>>> Astronomy "cameras" I have seen include a Peltier cell to cool the
> >>>> sensor and reduce thermal noise. Probably more expensive units use
> >>>> liquid CO2 or N2.
> >>>
> >>> that's separate issue and unrelated to bit depth.
> >>
> >> Surely it relates to 'useful' bit depth - the lower the thermal noise,
> >> the greater dynamic range achievable.
> >
> > true, but thermal noise in the sensor is still independent of bit depth
> > of the a/d.
>
> That's a bit of a backwards way of looking at it !

no, since it's the correct way of looking at it.

> Lower thermal noise potentially allows more benefit to be obtained when
> used with a higher bit-depth A-D.

it reduces noise in the shadows, but the dynamic range is still limited
by the a/d converter.

Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
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Subject: Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 19:08 UTC

On 2022-04-20 23:34, Alfred Molon wrote:
> Am 19.04.2022 um 23:51 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
>>
>> Having more bits in A/D increases noise.
>
> More bits reduce the quantisation noise.

Yes.

But the "analog" noise makes the least significant bits in the A/D
converter useless, so they simply don't make those and save money. Now,
make the sensor less noisy, get a stable "analog" signal, with noise
levels under the value of the last bit in the converter, and you can add
bits.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Most scientific cameras are 16 bit. Consumer cams, 14 max?

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 by: nospam - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:52 UTC

In article <plm8ji-jg1.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> >> Having more bits in A/D increases noise.
> >
> > More bits reduce the quantisation noise.
>
> Yes.
>
> But the "analog" noise makes the least significant bits in the A/D
> converter useless, so they simply don't make those and save money.

what do you mean they don't make those?

> Now,
> make the sensor less noisy, get a stable "analog" signal, with noise
> levels under the value of the last bit in the converter, and you can add
> bits.

you're confused about the various types of noise as well as sampling.

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