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tech / alt.engineering.electrical / Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

SubjectAuthor
* OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?gareth evans
+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Scott
|+- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?gareth evans
|+- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?newshound
|+- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)
|`- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Martin Brown
+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?nightjar
|+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?GB
||+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Spike
|||+- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?GB
|||`- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?alan_m
||`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?nightjar
|| `* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?GB
||  +* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Scott
||  |+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?GB
||  ||+- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?gfretwell
||  ||+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Steve Walker
||  |||+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Tim Streater
||  ||||`- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?The Natural Philosopher
||  |||+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?tony sayer
||  ||||`- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?gfretwell
||  |||+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?GB
||  ||||+- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?newshound
||  ||||+- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?gfretwell
||  ||||+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  |||||+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Pancho
||  ||||||`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  |||||| `* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Pancho
||  ||||||  +* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?The Natural Philosopher
||  ||||||  |`- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Pancho
||  ||||||  `- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  |||||`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?alan_m
||  ||||| `- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  ||||`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?The Natural Philosopher
||  |||| `- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?alan_m
||  |||+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Pancho
||  ||||+- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?gfretwell
||  ||||+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  |||||`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?nightjar
||  ||||| `- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  ||||+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?The Natural Philosopher
||  |||||`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?72y33
||  ||||| +* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?The Natural Philosopher
||  ||||| |`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?72y33
||  ||||| | +* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Fredxx
||  ||||| | |`- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  ||||| | `* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?The Natural Philosopher
||  ||||| |  `- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?72y33
||  ||||| `* Australian subs (was: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense thenewshound
||  |||||  `- Re: Australian subs (was: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?)Rod Speed
||  ||||`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Steve Walker
||  |||| +* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Pancho
||  |||| |+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Steve Walker
||  |||| ||`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Pancho
||  |||| || `- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  |||| |+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?The Natural Philosopher
||  |||| ||+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Pancho
||  |||| |||`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?The Natural Philosopher
||  |||| ||| `- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?72y33
||  |||| ||`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?newshound
||  |||| || `* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Pancho
||  |||| ||  +- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?newshound
||  |||| ||  `* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?The Natural Philosopher
||  |||| ||   `* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Pancho
||  |||| ||    +* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  |||| ||    |`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Pancho
||  |||| ||    | +- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?The Natural Philosopher
||  |||| ||    | `* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  |||| ||    |  `* Pifco Xmas tree lightsgareth evans
||  |||| ||    |   +* Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsgareth evans
||  |||| ||    |   |+* Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsDavid Wade
||  |||| ||    |   ||`* Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsIan Jackson
||  |||| ||    |   || +- Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsgareth evans
||  |||| ||    |   || `- Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsgfretwell
||  |||| ||    |   |+* Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsnewshound
||  |||| ||    |   ||`- Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsBrian Gaff \(Sofa\)
||  |||| ||    |   |`* Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsBrian Gaff \(Sofa\)
||  |||| ||    |   | +* Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsMartin Brown
||  |||| ||    |   | |`* Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsTim+
||  |||| ||    |   | | +- Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsThe Natural Philosopher
||  |||| ||    |   | | `- Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsMike Humphrey
||  |||| ||    |   | `- Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsSH
||  |||| ||    |   +- Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsMartin Brown
||  |||| ||    |   `* Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsBrian Gaff \(Sofa\)
||  |||| ||    |    `- Re: Pifco Xmas tree lightsIan Jackson
||  |||| ||    `- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?The Natural Philosopher
||  |||| |`- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  |||| `- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?nightjar
||  |||`- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  ||`- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  |`- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?alan_m
||  +- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Rod Speed
||  `- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?nightjar
|+* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?newshound
||+- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?gfretwell
||`- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?The Natural Philosopher
|`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)
| `- Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?newshound
`* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Dimitris Tzortzakakis
 `* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?newshound
  `* Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?Tim Streater

Pages:12345
Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?

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From: Pancho.D...@outlook.com (Pancho)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:21:00 +0100
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 by: Pancho - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 08:21 UTC

On 20/09/2021 19:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> On 20/09/2021 10:59, Pancho wrote:
>> There is no need for nuclear deployed missiles on subs. It makes no
>> discernable difference to the viability of detering a first strike
>> against the US.
>
> Bollocks
>
> You may THINK you will get most of the silos, you KNOW you wont get any
> of the subs
>

I don't see why you would say that. Subs can be tracked. The idea that a
technology/technique will emerge that can be used to effectively locate
all submarines is not that fanciful.

Audio. A network of listening devices. Some other property, I don't know
what it is, but with advances in technology I wouldn't rule it out.

The problem is similar to computer security, if you give an opponent a
clear attack vector they can hone their techniques.

Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 19:30:54 +1000
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 by: Rod Speed - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:30 UTC

Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote
> The Natural Philosopher wrote
>> Pancho wrote

>>> There is no need for nuclear deployed missiles on subs. It makes no
>>> discernable difference to the viability of detering a first strike
>>> against the US.
>>
>> Bollocks
>>
>> You may THINK you will get most of the silos, you KNOW you wont get any
>> of the subs

> I don't see why you would say that.

Because its true. Novel concept I realise.

> Subs can be tracked.

No they cant when out in the open ocean. That’s the whole point of them.

> The idea that a technology/technique will emerge that can be used to
> effectively locate all submarines is not that fanciful.

Fraid so.

> Audio. A network of listening devices.

Not feasible over the entire oceans and no way to be sure
it’s a sub with nukes in it either. Easy to fake audio signatures.

> Some other property, I don't know what it is, but with advances in
> technology I wouldn't rule it out.

Clearly not there now.

> The problem is similar to computer security,

Nope, nothing like that.

> if you give an opponent a clear attack vector they can hone their
> techniques.

How odd that no one has done that with nuke missile subs.

Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?

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From: Pancho.D...@outlook.com (Pancho)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:38:09 +0100
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 by: Pancho - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:38 UTC

On 21/09/2021 10:30, Rod Speed wrote:
> Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote

>
>> Subs can be tracked.
>
> No they cant when out in the open ocean. That’s the whole point of them.
>

Of course they can. They can be followed from base.

[snip]

>> if you give an opponent a clear attack vector they can hone their
>> techniques.
>
> How odd that no one has done that with nuke missile subs.

How would you know if they had done it?

Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:37 UTC

On 21/09/2021 09:21, Pancho wrote:
> On 20/09/2021 19:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> On 20/09/2021 10:59, Pancho wrote:
>>> There is no need for nuclear deployed missiles on subs. It makes no
>>> discernable difference to the viability of detering a first strike
>>> against the US.
>>
>> Bollocks
>>
>> You may THINK you will get most of the silos, you KNOW you wont get
>> any of the subs
>>
>
> I don't see why you would say that. Subs can be tracked. The idea that a
> technology/technique will emerge that can be used to effectively locate
> all submarines is not that fanciful.
>
If it were that easy we wouldnyt bother with subs at all.

> Audio. A network of listening devices. Some other property, I don't know
> what it is, but with advances in technology I wouldn't rule it out.

Its been done. In fact I worked on it back in the 1970s. rubber coated
hulls, very slow propellors, down deep. Totally undetectable.

Same goes for thermal signature. You cant 'see' it through a lot of
layers of water . And teh sub can run on batteries even if its a nuke,
>
> The problem is similar to computer security, if you give an opponent a
> clear attack vector they can hone their techniques.
>
>

I can assure you, they do, but I can also assure you, that a sub sitting
at depth with engines off is almost impossible to detect. And there are
limits to how much of the sea you can litter with sonobuoys.

>

--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 12:08:37 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:08 UTC

On 21/09/2021 10:38, Pancho wrote:
> On 21/09/2021 10:30, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote
>
>>
>>> Subs can be tracked.
>>
>> No they cant when out in the open ocean. That’s the whole point of them.
>>
>
> Of course they can. They can be followed from base.
No, they cant. If they could be there would be no point in having them
>
> [snip]
>
>>> if you give an opponent a clear attack vector they can hone their
>>> techniques.
>>
>> How odd that no one has done that with nuke missile subs.
>
> How would you know if they had done it?

How do *you* know they *have*?

This is all hand waving hypotheses in the face of in your case almost
complete ignorance,

As I said, I was working on military electronics back in the cold war
days, and sub detection was really hard even with the class of noisy
subs we had then, If you suspected a sub you would drop a few hundred
sonobuoys and hope that you could pick up prop noise, but it didn't go
very far, and they were expensive things to simply waste - because you
never picked them up again.

We use submarines because they are much harder to detect than anything
else except maybe stealth aircraft. Aircraft and aircraft carriers
proved to obsolete battleships almost completely in WWII. All the rest
of the capital ships served as anti-aircraft protection for the aircraft
carriers - missile launchers and flak ships. The one thing large capital
ships are vulnerable to is submarines and torpedo attack - surface to
surface missiles are something we developed technology to mostly beat
back in the 60s and 70s. Yes we have AS helicopters and so on, but they
are not infallible.

The danger from China is interdiction and blockading of trade routes,
and use of capital ships to protect landing forces onto some of the
islands they lay claim to. If submarines can effectively strike against
these, it nullifies the risk. Australia having nuclear subs and more
importantly, US nuclear subs being able to use Australia as a military
base, is a clear and simple warning to China that says 'don't try it, mate'.

If you read the geopolitical news, it appears china is in danger of an
internal coup by sharp elbows in the CCP that want what Xi Jinping has:
In essence belligerence and stirring up 'foreign enemies' is what every
regime under threat does - look at Iran, Look at the EU. look at the
SNP, look at Argentina...

So until things settle down and China goes back to world domination by
trade, buying up Western politicians, and inserting spyware in
everything and hacking the internet, a few billion tossed at nuclear
powered submarines is in order.

What people like you fail to realise is that perpetual war is the
natural state of man in an overcrowded resource limited world. The fact
that conflicts are few,far between and limited in scope, is not because
we don't have super weapons, it is because we do. There is not much
upside in invading a country if your own becomes a nuclear wasteland. Or
trying to invade across an ocean littered with undetectable hunter
killer submarines.

To date china has proxied wars in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Korea,
Pakistan versus India, and has annexed two countries, since WWII.

We don't know how much they are behind Islamic fundamentalism and jihad.

We don't know how many Western politicians they have in their pockets

We do know that when you give them mining rights, a barbed wire fence
and armed guards go in to protect the installation and woe betide any
locals.

China is tougher and meaner than Britain ever was in terms of developing
it's Empire.

It behoves us to not fondly imagine they wouldn't start a war in an
instant if they felt they could get away with it. Our job is to make
sure they can't.

US involvement in Vietnam was curtailed by democracy and public opinion.
China has no democracy and public opinion is no match for automatic
weapons, education camps and quietly vanishing into a hole in the
ground. What the EU would like to do, in terms of mass population
control, has already been done by China.

“when things get difficult you just have to lie”

― Jean Claud Jüncker

Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 04:02:24 +1000
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 by: Rod Speed - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 18:02 UTC

Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote

>>> Subs can be tracked.

>> No they cant when out in the open ocean. That’s the whole point of them.

> Of course they can. They can be followed from base.

Nope, no way to do that. All you know is that they have left the base.

>>> if you give an opponent a clear attack vector they can hone their
>>> techniques.

>> How odd that no one has done that with nuke missile subs.

> How would you know if they had done it?

The operation that can do that would stop building any more of them.

Pifco Xmas tree lights

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From: headston...@yahoo.com (gareth evans)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 18:43:24 +0100
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 by: gareth evans - Wed, 6 Oct 2021 17:43 UTC

I have been called uppon by SWMBO to repair her Pifco Xmas
tree lights which she purchased over 5 years ago.
(Yes, we have plenty of modern LED versions to
replace them)

1. The instructions say that if one bulb of the 20 fails,
then the res will remain illuminated. What's the technology
here because they're all wired in series?

2. Is the Fuse Bulb a capacitive unit, because I get a momentary
flick of the ohmmeter?

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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From: headston...@yahoo.com (gareth evans)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 18:47:11 +0100
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 by: gareth evans - Wed, 6 Oct 2021 17:47 UTC

On 06/10/2021 18:43, gareth evans wrote:
> I have been called uppon by SWMBO to repair her Pifco Xmas
> tree lights which she purchased over 5 years ago.
> (Yes, we have plenty of modern LED versions to
> replace them)
>
> 1. The instructions say that if one bulb of the 20 fails,
> then the res will remain illuminated. What's the technology
> here because they're all wired in series?
>
> 2. Is the Fuse Bulb a capacitive unit, because I get a momentary
> flick of the ohmmeter?
>

Sticky key ... 50 years ago

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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From: g4u...@dave.invalid (David Wade)
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Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
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 by: David Wade - Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:53 UTC

On 06/10/2021 18:47, gareth evans wrote:
> On 06/10/2021 18:43, gareth evans wrote:
>> I have been called uppon by SWMBO to repair her Pifco Xmas
>> tree lights which she purchased over 5 years ago.
>> (Yes, we have plenty of modern LED versions to
>> replace them)
>>
>> 1. The instructions say that if one bulb of the 20 fails,
>> then the res will remain illuminated. What's the technology
>> here because they're all wired in series?
>>
>> 2. Is the Fuse Bulb a capacitive unit, because I get a momentary
>> flick of the ohmmeter?
>>
>
> Sticky key ... 50 years ago
>
The bulbs are designed to fail as a short circuit. So as more fail the
others get more overloaded ...

Dave

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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 by: newshound - Wed, 6 Oct 2021 20:33 UTC

On 06/10/2021 18:47, gareth evans wrote:
> On 06/10/2021 18:43, gareth evans wrote:
>> I have been called uppon by SWMBO to repair her Pifco Xmas
>> tree lights which she purchased over 5 years ago.
>> (Yes, we have plenty of modern LED versions to
>> replace them)
>>
>> 1. The instructions say that if one bulb of the 20 fails,
>> then the res will remain illuminated. What's the technology
>> here because they're all wired in series?
>>
>> 2. Is the Fuse Bulb a capacitive unit, because I get a momentary
>> flick of the ohmmeter?
>>
>
> Sticky key ... 50 years ago
>
Each bulb has a resistor in parallel.

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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From: ianREMOV...@g3ohx.co.uk (Ian Jackson)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 21:54:06 +0100
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 by: Ian Jackson - Wed, 6 Oct 2021 20:54 UTC

In message <sjkus5$ulg$1@dont-email.me>, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
writes
>On 06/10/2021 18:47, gareth evans wrote:
>> On 06/10/2021 18:43, gareth evans wrote:
>>> I have been called uppon by SWMBO to repair her Pifco Xmas
>>> tree lights which she purchased over 5 years ago.
>>> (Yes, we have plenty of modern LED versions to
>>> replace them)
>>>
>>> 1. The instructions say that if one bulb of the 20 fails,
>>> then the res will remain illuminated. What's the technology
>>> here because they're all wired in series?
>>>
>>> 2. Is the Fuse Bulb a capacitive unit, because I get a momentary
>>> flick of the ohmmeter?
>>>
>> Sticky key ... 50 years ago
>>
>The bulbs are designed to fail as a short circuit. So as more fail the
>others get more overloaded ...
>
Yes. The filament support wires keep it under tension. There's a loop of
wire welded to one of the support wires, and it loops around the other
support wire (but doesn't touch it). If the filament breaks, the support
wires spring apart, and the wire loop shorts one to the other.
--
Ian

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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From: headston...@yahoo.com (gareth evans)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 22:25:50 +0100
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 by: gareth evans - Wed, 6 Oct 2021 21:25 UTC

On 06/10/2021 21:54, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <sjkus5$ulg$1@dont-email.me>, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
> writes
>> On 06/10/2021 18:47, gareth evans wrote:
>>> On 06/10/2021 18:43, gareth evans wrote:
>>>> I have been called uppon by SWMBO to repair her Pifco Xmas
>>>> tree lights which she purchased over 5 years ago.
>>>> (Yes, we have plenty of modern LED versions to
>>>> replace them)
>>>>
>>>> 1. The instructions say that if one bulb of the 20 fails,
>>>> then the res will remain illuminated. What's the technology
>>>> here because they're all wired in series?
>>>>
>>>> 2. Is the Fuse Bulb a capacitive unit, because I get a momentary
>>>> flick of the ohmmeter?
>>>>
>>> Sticky key ... 50 years ago
>>>
>> The bulbs are designed to fail as a short circuit. So as more fail the
>> others get more overloaded ...
>>
> Yes. The filament support wires keep it under tension. There's a loop of
> wire welded to one of the support wires, and it loops around the other
> support wire (but doesn't touch it). If the filament breaks, the support
> wires spring apart, and the wire loop shorts one to the other.

Interesting.Time to get out the magnifying glass and be curious tomorrow!

73 ES TKS IAN!

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
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 by: Martin Brown - Wed, 6 Oct 2021 21:32 UTC

On 06/10/2021 18:43, gareth evans wrote:
> I have been called uppon by SWMBO to repair her Pifco Xmas
> tree lights which she purchased over 5 years ago.
> (Yes, we have plenty of modern LED versions to
> replace them)
>
> 1. The instructions say that if one bulb of the 20 fails,
> then the res will remain illuminated. What's the technology
> here because they're all wired in series?

A special glass that has a low breakdown voltage in the "normal" bulbs.
If a filament fails then the glass finds itself with the full 240v ac
across it and quickly becomes conducting as a dead short. The remaining
N-1 bulbs then remain lit but with N/(N-1) volts across each of them.
They burn progressively brighter with each failed bulb in the string.

Things get hairy when 3 or more bulbs fail which is when the fuse bulb
should prevent a cascade failure where they are all quickly destroyed.
>
> 2. Is the Fuse Bulb a capacitive unit, because I get a momentary
> flick of the ohmmeter?

No. It is has a slightly higher rating and behaves like fuse in series.
It should blow before things get out of hand but like all safety devices
can sometimes save itself by allowing everything else to fail!

Test each bulb in turn on resistance. Dead ones will be almost zero
ohms. Spares are usually available from eBay.

Mains strings of lights are these days considered somewhat dangerous.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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From: gfretw...@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 21:29:54 -0400
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 by: gfretw...@aol.com - Thu, 7 Oct 2021 01:29 UTC

On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 21:54:06 +0100, Ian Jackson
<ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <sjkus5$ulg$1@dont-email.me>, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
>writes
>>On 06/10/2021 18:47, gareth evans wrote:
>>> On 06/10/2021 18:43, gareth evans wrote:
>>>> I have been called uppon by SWMBO to repair her Pifco Xmas
>>>> tree lights which she purchased over 5 years ago.
>>>> (Yes, we have plenty of modern LED versions to
>>>> replace them)
>>>>
>>>> 1. The instructions say that if one bulb of the 20 fails,
>>>> then the res will remain illuminated. What's the technology
>>>> here because they're all wired in series?
>>>>
>>>> 2. Is the Fuse Bulb a capacitive unit, because I get a momentary
>>>> flick of the ohmmeter?
>>>>
>>> Sticky key ... 50 years ago
>>>
>>The bulbs are designed to fail as a short circuit. So as more fail the
>>others get more overloaded ...
>>
>Yes. The filament support wires keep it under tension. There's a loop of
>wire welded to one of the support wires, and it loops around the other
>support wire (but doesn't touch it). If the filament breaks, the support
>wires spring apart, and the wire loop shorts one to the other.

The problem with these Asian $2 a string lights is usually a bad
connection between the lamp and the socket so all of that fail safe
logic fails.

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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From: bria...@blueyonder.co.uk (Brian Gaff \(Sofa\))
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:38:19 +0100
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 by: Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) - Thu, 7 Oct 2021 07:38 UTC

No a lot more basic than that. The fuse bulb will be a blow open one,
Normally this has a bit of a white colouring near the base. The rest aware
blow short.
Normally about 20 all underrun so they can tolerate a couple of duds, then
the fuse bulb goes.
I to feel that many of the older filament lights were somewhat nicer to
look at in their day than the led replacements despite their bit pattern
of strobing effects they are often a source of interference. I think in many
ways its the safety aspect that spelled the demise of traditional series
lights since every bulb has the mains on it and the single insulated wires
and the poor workmanship at the wire holder join has resulted in some nasty
electrocution events in the past when people put them up while lit and
holding onto an earthed radiator at the same time.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
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"gareth evans" <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sjkn7v$aem$1@dont-email.me...
>I have been called uppon by SWMBO to repair her Pifco Xmas
> tree lights which she purchased over 5 years ago.
> (Yes, we have plenty of modern LED versions to
> replace them)
>
> 1. The instructions say that if one bulb of the 20 fails,
> then the res will remain illuminated. What's the technology
> here because they're all wired in series?
>
> 2. Is the Fuse Bulb a capacitive unit, because I get a momentary
> flick of the ohmmeter?
>

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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From: bria...@blueyonder.co.uk (Brian Gaff \(Sofa\))
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:39:34 +0100
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 by: Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) - Thu, 7 Oct 2021 07:39 UTC

Yes, well, they were on sale in pound shops only 10 years ago and were
frankly death traps.
Brian

--

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briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
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"gareth evans" <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sjknf0$aem$2@dont-email.me...
> On 06/10/2021 18:43, gareth evans wrote:
>> I have been called uppon by SWMBO to repair her Pifco Xmas
>> tree lights which she purchased over 5 years ago.
>> (Yes, we have plenty of modern LED versions to
>> replace them)
>>
>> 1. The instructions say that if one bulb of the 20 fails,
>> then the res will remain illuminated. What's the technology
>> here because they're all wired in series?
>>
>> 2. Is the Fuse Bulb a capacitive unit, because I get a momentary
>> flick of the ohmmeter?
>>
>
> Sticky key ... 50 years ago
>

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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From: bria...@blueyonder.co.uk (Brian Gaff \(Sofa\))
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:46:03 +0100
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 by: Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) - Thu, 7 Oct 2021 07:46 UTC

No it does not, the previous description is accurate. If there was a
resistor in such a small space it would get very very hot. The fuse bulb has
no loop of wire so blows open circuit, but of course many many people used
to just shove a normal bulb in which eventually made the fuse in the plug
blow or in the case of one we had which plugged into a light socket of the
bayonet sort. Blue the fuse on the whole lighting circuit resulting in
instant darkness or fried Christmas lights depending on the loading!

Brian

--

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"newshound" <newshound@stevejqr.plus.com> wrote in message
news:eq-dnbLts-ZhmsP8nZ2dnUU78VXNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
> On 06/10/2021 18:47, gareth evans wrote:
>> On 06/10/2021 18:43, gareth evans wrote:
>>> I have been called uppon by SWMBO to repair her Pifco Xmas
>>> tree lights which she purchased over 5 years ago.
>>> (Yes, we have plenty of modern LED versions to
>>> replace them)
>>>
>>> 1. The instructions say that if one bulb of the 20 fails,
>>> then the res will remain illuminated. What's the technology
>>> here because they're all wired in series?
>>>
>>> 2. Is the Fuse Bulb a capacitive unit, because I get a momentary
>>> flick of the ohmmeter?
>>>
>>
>> Sticky key ... 50 years ago
>>
> Each bulb has a resistor in parallel.

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:59:26 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Thu, 7 Oct 2021 07:59 UTC

On 07/10/2021 08:39, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Yes, well, they were on sale in pound shops only 10 years ago and were
> frankly death traps.
> Brian

Only if you either have very small fingers or a death wish and poke
wires into it whilst switched on. Modern ones for the last couple of
decades have all the lamps in insulated plastic plugs.

Old style screw ones had threaded brass at potentially mains voltage. In
theory it should blow the fuse bulb in the live line to isolate it but
that isn't always the case if plugs are incorrectly wired.

People changing bulbs with the mains still on deserve a Darwin Award.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:28:17 +0100
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 by: SH - Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:28 UTC

On 07/10/2021 08:39, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Yes, well, they were on sale in pound shops only 10 years ago and were
> frankly death traps.
> Brian
>

yes i can rememmber buying 10 sets for the grand total of £10....

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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From: tim.dow...@gmail.com (Tim+)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y,alt.engineering.electrical
Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: 7 Oct 2021 08:56:46 GMT
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 by: Tim+ - Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:56 UTC

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
> On 07/10/2021 08:39, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>> Yes, well, they were on sale in pound shops only 10 years ago and were
>> frankly death traps.
>> Brian
>
> Only if you either have very small fingers or a death wish and poke
> wires into it whilst switched on. Modern ones for the last couple of
> decades have all the lamps in insulated plastic plugs.
>
> Old style screw ones had threaded brass at potentially mains voltage.

Surely not when they were wired is series? In a string of 20 bulbs there
would be at most 240/19 volts (I think). Or are you suggesting that this
is the case when all the bulbs have gone short circuit?

> In
> theory it should blow the fuse bulb in the live line to isolate it but
> that isn't always the case if plugs are incorrectly wired.
>
> People changing bulbs with the mains still on deserve a Darwin Award.

Always did it that way. Swapping all the bulbs sequentially with a new bulb
was the easiest way to find the duff one.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:01 UTC

On 07/10/2021 09:56, Tim+ wrote:
> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/10/2021 08:39, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>>> Yes, well, they were on sale in pound shops only 10 years ago and were
>>> frankly death traps.
>>> Brian
>>
>> Only if you either have very small fingers or a death wish and poke
>> wires into it whilst switched on. Modern ones for the last couple of
>> decades have all the lamps in insulated plastic plugs.
>>
>> Old style screw ones had threaded brass at potentially mains voltage.
>
> Surely not when they were wired is series? In a string of 20 bulbs there
> would be at most 240/19 volts (I think). Or are you suggesting that this
> is the case when all the bulbs have gone short circuit?
It is the case if one bulb has gone open circuit for all bulbs
'upstream' of the break..
>
>> In
>> theory it should blow the fuse bulb in the live line to isolate it but
>> that isn't always the case if plugs are incorrectly wired.
>>
>> People changing bulbs with the mains still on deserve a Darwin Award.
>
> Always did it that way. Swapping all the bulbs sequentially with a new bulb
> was the easiest way to find the duff one.
>
It was, sadly.

Now all LED....
> Tim
>

--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

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From: ianREMOV...@g3ohx.co.uk (Ian Jackson)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 16:51:36 +0100
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 by: Ian Jackson - Thu, 7 Oct 2021 15:51 UTC

In message <sjm85f$kgq$1@dont-email.me>, "Brian Gaff (Sofa)"
<briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>No a lot more basic than that. The fuse bulb will be a blow open one,
>Normally this has a bit of a white colouring near the base. The rest aware
>blow short.
> Normally about 20 all underrun so they can tolerate a couple of duds, then
>the fuse bulb goes.
> I to feel that many of the older filament lights were somewhat nicer to
>look at in their day

I've still got a set from around 1950 (12 times 20 volt lights, I
think). There was also an additional 'flasher bulb' (use optional), with
a bi-metal pair of contacts. When used, this created severe
'splat-splat' interference on the radio (especially the long wave).
Unfortunately, about half the bulbs are blown - but with the insertion
of bits of silver paper where required I can still run them from a
variac.

> than the led replacements

Most modern LED Christmas lights are absolutely awful.

>despite their bit pattern
>of strobing effects they are often a source of interference. I think in many
>ways its the safety aspect that spelled the demise of traditional series
>lights since every bulb has the mains on it and the single insulated wires
>and the poor workmanship at the wire holder join has resulted in some nasty
>electrocution events in the past when people put them up while lit and
>holding onto an earthed radiator at the same time.

Most of these deaths were probably not actually caused by electrocution,
but instead from contact with the floor!
--
Ian

Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights

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From: mai...@michaelhumphrey.me.uk (Mike Humphrey)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y,alt.engineering.electrical
Subject: Re: Pifco Xmas tree lights
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:24:26 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mike Humphrey - Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:24 UTC

On Thu, 07 Oct 2021 08:56:46 +0000, Tim+ wrote:
> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>> Old style screw ones had threaded brass at potentially mains voltage.
>
> Surely not when they were wired is series? In a string of 20 bulbs there
> would be at most 240/19 volts (I think). Or are you suggesting that
> this is the case when all the bulbs have gone short circuit?

With a bulb removed, there's no current flowing and so no voltage drop
across the remaining bulbs. One side of the empty holder will be at mains
voltage and the other side at zero. In the worst case, you've removed the
first bulb and it's connected directly to mains live. In the best case
you've removed the last one and it's connected through all 19 other bulbs
- but cold unlit bulbs have quite a low resistance so this might not be
enough to save you.

Also even with the string lit, there might only be 12V across each bulb,
but the bulbs at the "live" end still have over 200V to earth.

Mike

Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?

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From: noo...@nospam.com (Dimitris Tzortzakakis)
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,uk.d-i-y
Subject: Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 17:23:48 +0300
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 by: Dimitris Tzortzakaki - Sat, 30 Oct 2021 14:23 UTC

Στις 16/9/2021 4:49 μ.μ., ο/η gareth evans έγραψε:
> After following the Vigil TV series (with all its
> reported errors) and also the prog on HMS Trenchard,
> when a Brit U-boat is powered by nuclear fuels, how
> do they condense the steam?
>
> With sea water? If so, there must be difficulties
> in sealing the intakes and outfalls from deep sea
> pressures.
>
> Perhaps the steam is heated to 200C and only cools to
> 100C through the turbines before recirculating
> so no condensing is
> required. This, of course, will be wasteful
> of some thermodynamic energy, but there's so much
> in reserve in the nuclear fual that perhaps it does not
> matter.
>
well, the expected answer is with sea water, the same "coolant" that
convential ships use. I read once a german article about the sinking of
the US submarine "Thresher", that was designed to go deeper thna usual,
and that was not combined with welding of its pipes, instead of
soldering, to withstand the higher pressures involved, also they needed
a "clean room" to work, so it's possible that a speck of dust sank the
300 m submarine! Also that it needed a more powerful air compression
system, so it could "blow" its ballast tanks in distress, especially
following a reactor SCRAM.

Re: OT Nuclear U-Boats; how do they condense the steam?

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 by: newshound - Sat, 30 Oct 2021 17:57 UTC

On 30/10/2021 15:23, Dimitris Tzortzakakis wrote:
> Στις 16/9/2021 4:49 μ.μ., ο/η gareth evans έγραψε:
>> After following the Vigil TV series (with all its
>> reported errors) and also the prog on HMS Trenchard,
>> when a Brit U-boat is powered by nuclear fuels, how
>> do they condense the steam?
>>
>> With sea water? If so, there must be difficulties
>> in sealing the intakes and outfalls from deep sea
>> pressures.
>>
>> Perhaps the steam is heated to 200C and only cools to
>> 100C through the turbines before recirculating
>> so no condensing is
>> required. This, of course, will be wasteful
>> of some thermodynamic energy, but there's so much
>> in reserve in the nuclear fual that perhaps it does not
>> matter.
>>
> well, the expected answer is with sea water, the same "coolant" that
> convential ships use. I read once a german article about the sinking of
> the US submarine "Thresher", that was designed to go deeper thna usual,
> and that was not combined with welding of its pipes, instead of
> soldering, to withstand the higher pressures involved, also they needed
> a "clean room" to work, so it's possible that a speck of dust sank the
> 300 m submarine! Also that it needed a more powerful air compression
> system, so it could "blow" its ballast tanks in distress, especially
> following a reactor SCRAM.

Two theories, one official and one unofficial, are very well described here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Thresher_(SSN-593)

It is true that the Thresher had brazed heat exchangers, which showed
faults in subsequent boats. I don't see any justification for the "speck
of dust" claim and I don't think the Thresher was particularly designed
for deeper diving, although this aspect of performance is normally
classified. It has been surmised that they were unable to "blow" the
tanks because of ice crystals blocking the lines.

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