More oil/water separation.
The AC vs DC separation test was performed and the AC was probably 10 times better. This was a stubborn emulsion, but the AC did work.
( Not throwing DC out yet, need to test other types of oils first.)
Literature says Pulsed DC is best. So to that end, I want to come up with a way to create 500V to 9000V, 1Hz to 1000Hz, HV DC pulses with variable width. Although, I would be satisfied by 1HZ to 100Hz, as literature says a lower frequency is optimum.
The little research I have done shows gated pulses (commercial units) versus a square wave into a step up transformer, and rectifying, I suspect because ringing would be a problem. Looked at old style ignition coil drive circuits, but their wave form is an AC decay signal. Not sure how I could make that a single DC pulse.
I'm looking at the simple 555 to create the variable pulse, but after that I'm not sure how to get a decent variable HV DC pulse.
Any ideas to help me are appreciated,
Thanks, Mikek
P.S. We are using a variac driving a neon sign transformer for variable AC voltage and then full wave bridge to get variable DC voltage.
Still waiting on a capacitance and parallel resistance of the test vessel with and without solution.

On Tue, 9 May 2023 05:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
<amdx62@gmail.com> wrote:

>More oil/water separation.
>The AC vs DC separation test was performed and the AC was probably 10 times better. This was a stubborn emulsion, but the AC did work.
>( Not throwing DC out yet, need to test other types of oils first.)
> Literature says Pulsed DC is best. So to that end, I want to come up with a way to create 500V to 9000V, 1Hz to 1000Hz, HV DC pulses with variable width. Although, I would be satisfied by 1HZ to 100Hz, as literature says a lower frequency is optimum.
> The little research I have done shows gated pulses (commercial units) versus a square wave into a step up transformer, and rectifying, I suspect because ringing would be a problem. Looked at old style ignition coil drive circuits, but their wave form is an AC decay signal. Not sure how I could make that a single DC pulse.
> I'm looking at the simple 555 to create the variable pulse, but after that I'm not sure how to get a decent variable HV DC pulse.
> Any ideas to help me are appreciated,
> Thanks, Mikek
>P.S. We are using a variac driving a neon sign transformer for variable AC voltage and then full wave bridge to get variable DC voltage.
> Still waiting on a capacitance and parallel resistance of the test vessel with and without solution.

What is the load like electrically? How do you connect to the
emulsion?

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 10:26:42 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 9 May 2023 05:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston

> >P.S. We are using a variac driving a neon sign transformer for variable AC voltage and then full wave bridge to get variable DC voltage.
> > Still waiting on a capacitance and parallel resistance of the test vessel with and without solution.

> What is the load like electrically? How do you connect to the
> emulsion?

So far, there is no connection to the emulsion, it is just an electric field.
Here's a quick drawing showing the setup.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xt2lyw6lle824ur/OiL%20water%20Vessel.jpg?dl=0

There is some evidence that people use electrodes (grids) in the emulsion, and that will probably be tested at some point.
But, as yet I don't have info on what voltage or current to expect with electrodes in solution.

I'm hoping get my son to do a capacitance/resistance test of the tube and emulsion this week.
He has other job duties and they need to be done.
I'm throwing lots of ideas at him and just waiting to see what he decides to do.
MIkek

On Tue, 9 May 2023 10:07:32 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
<amdx62@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 10:26:42?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 May 2023 05:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
>
>> >P.S. We are using a variac driving a neon sign transformer for variable AC voltage and then full wave bridge to get variable DC voltage.
>> > Still waiting on a capacitance and parallel resistance of the test vessel with and without solution.
>
>> What is the load like electrically? How do you connect to the
>> emulsion?
>
> So far, there is no connection to the emulsion, it is just an electric field.
>Here's a quick drawing showing the setup.
>https://www.dropbox.com/s/xt2lyw6lle824ur/OiL%20water%20Vessel.jpg?dl=0

OK, no liquid conduction, just a bit of capacitance.

A simple flyback circuit would work: a DC supply, a mosfet or SiC fet,
an inductor, maybe a diode or two. Possibly two fets.

My Pockels Cell driver is a sort of flyback that recovers the energy
from the capacitive load.

http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/T850DS.shtml

I've been thinking about a similar case, driving pulses into a pretty
hunky capacitive load with minimal parts and dissipation, but bigger
c, lower v, and higher f.

What's a reasonable pulse width and frequency?

>
> There is some evidence that people use electrodes (grids) in the emulsion, and that will probably be tested at some point.

That would dissipate a lot of power in the liquid, maybe boil it.

Does ionic conduction have time lag?

>But, as yet I don't have info on what voltage or current to expect with electrodes in solution.
>
> I'm hoping get my son to do a capacitance/resistance test of the tube and emulsion this week.
>He has other job duties and they need to be done.
>I'm throwing lots of ideas at him and just waiting to see what he decides to do.
> MIkek

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 2:09:27 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 9 May 2023 10:07:32 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
> <amd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 10:26:42?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Tue, 9 May 2023 05:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
> >
> >> >P.S. We are using a variac driving a neon sign transformer for variable AC voltage and then full wave bridge to get variable DC voltage.
> >> > Still waiting on a capacitance and parallel resistance of the test vessel with and without solution.
> >
> >> What is the load like electrically? How do you connect to the
> >> emulsion?
> >
> > So far, there is no connection to the emulsion, it is just an electric field.
> >Here's a quick drawing showing the setup.
> >https://www.dropbox.com/s/xt2lyw6lle824ur/OiL%20water%20Vessel.jpg?dl=0
> OK, no liquid conduction, just a bit of capacitance.
>
> A simple flyback circuit would work: a DC supply, a mosfet or SiC fet,
> an inductor, maybe a diode or two. Possibly two fets.

But would that allow any pulse width adjustment?
> My Pockels Cell driver is a sort of flyback that recovers the energy
> from the capacitive load.
>
> http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/T850DS.shtml
>
> I've been thinking about a similar case, driving pulses into a pretty
> hunky capacitive load with minimal parts and dissipation, but bigger
> c, lower v, and higher f.
>
> What's a reasonable pulse width and frequency?

One article references 8Hz as the optimal frequency, but no info on pulse width.
I'm suspecting 8Hz is not really the optimum, but had more to do with the pulse width they had at that frequency, but, I don't know how they developed their pulse. I also have a feeling different oils will require different frequency, pulse width and voltage. On the other hand, I'm way over
my head on both the electronics and the physics of water/Oil droplets. I'm winging it as best I can.
I just read coalescence of (water) molecules only happens during rise and fall time of the pulse, so maybe short pulses are fine, but it is a physical movement so it takes time. (I don't understand why on fall time!)

> > There is some evidence that people use electrodes (grids) in the emulsion, and that will probably be tested at some point.

> That would dissipate a lot of power in the liquid, maybe boil it.

I have now idea about the voltage or current with electrode on an emulsion.

So, yes, I don't get it.

As always energy use is to be minimized in commercial use.

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 1:07:36 PM UTC-4, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 10:26:42 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 May 2023 05:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
> > >P.S. We are using a variac driving a neon sign transformer for variable AC voltage and then full wave bridge to get variable DC voltage.
> > > Still waiting on a capacitance and parallel resistance of the test vessel with and without solution.
>
> > What is the load like electrically? How do you connect to the
> > emulsion?
> So far, there is no connection to the emulsion, it is just an electric field.
> Here's a quick drawing showing the setup.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xt2lyw6lle824ur/OiL%20water%20Vessel.jpg?dl=0

So the line going from the transformer through the top of the centrifuge tube is not a wire? That's an electrode in the emulsion.

> There is some evidence that people use electrodes (grids) in the emulsion, and that will probably be tested at some point.
> But, as yet I don't have info on what voltage or current to expect with electrodes in solution.

It will conduct, probably a lot. It has a large portion of water, no? Remember an emulsion is tiny drops of oil in the water. Even if it is only half water, that's enough to complete a circuit. The centrifuge tube forms a capacitor, between the emulsion and the aluminum tube, with the centrifuge tube as the dielectric. In this case, the separation is 100% due to the conduction of the AC current through the emulsion.

You might do better using a higher frequency, rather than a higher voltage. But then your half wave rectification tests might argue against that. Not sure how you might easily generate higher frequencies than 60 Hz. Can you just interrupt the circuit with a transistor, or a tube?

> I'm hoping get my son to do a capacitance/resistance test of the tube and emulsion this week.

Are you talking about two electrodes in the emulsion? If you mean your current set up, the capacitance will be low and the resistance probably inconsequential. I'm saying the RC filter formed will be dominated by the impedance of the capacitance at 60 Hz.

> He has other job duties and they need to be done.
> I'm throwing lots of ideas at him and just waiting to see what he decides to do.

Good luck.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 3:42:49 PM UTC-4, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 2:09:27 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 May 2023 10:07:32 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
> > <amd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 10:26:42?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 9 May 2023 05:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
> > >
> > >> >P.S. We are using a variac driving a neon sign transformer for variable AC voltage and then full wave bridge to get variable DC voltage.
> > >> > Still waiting on a capacitance and parallel resistance of the test vessel with and without solution.
> > >
> > >> What is the load like electrically? How do you connect to the
> > >> emulsion?
> > >
> > > So far, there is no connection to the emulsion, it is just an electric field.
> > >Here's a quick drawing showing the setup.
> > >https://www.dropbox.com/s/xt2lyw6lle824ur/OiL%20water%20Vessel.jpg?dl=0
> > OK, no liquid conduction, just a bit of capacitance.
> >
> > A simple flyback circuit would work: a DC supply, a mosfet or SiC fet,
> > an inductor, maybe a diode or two. Possibly two fets.
> But would that allow any pulse width adjustment?
> > My Pockels Cell driver is a sort of flyback that recovers the energy
> > from the capacitive load.
> >
> > http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/T850DS.shtml
> >
> > I've been thinking about a similar case, driving pulses into a pretty
> > hunky capacitive load with minimal parts and dissipation, but bigger
> > c, lower v, and higher f.
> >
> > What's a reasonable pulse width and frequency?
> One article references 8Hz as the optimal frequency, but no info on pulse width.
> I'm suspecting 8Hz is not really the optimum, but had more to do with the pulse width they had at that frequency, but, I don't know how they developed their pulse. I also have a feeling different oils will require different frequency, pulse width and voltage. On the other hand, I'm way over
> my head on both the electronics and the physics of water/Oil droplets. I'm winging it as best I can.
> I just read coalescence of (water) molecules only happens during rise and fall time of the pulse, so maybe short pulses are fine, but it is a physical movement so it takes time. (I don't understand why on fall time!)

How did they determine that?

> > > There is some evidence that people use electrodes (grids) in the emulsion, and that will probably be tested at some point.
>
>
> > That would dissipate a lot of power in the liquid, maybe boil it.
> I have now idea about the voltage or current with electrode on an emulsion.
>
> So, yes, I don't get it.
>
> As always energy use is to be minimized in commercial use.

I wouldn't worry about any details as yet. To optimize anything, you first need to characterize and understand the issues. Then you can worry about energy and such. Seems to me, you are a long way from having any idea what is happening or how it might be optimized.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tue, 9 May 2023 12:42:44 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 2:09:27 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 May 2023 10:07:32 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
>> <amd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 10:26:42?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 9 May 2023 05:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
>> >
>> >> >P.S. We are using a variac driving a neon sign transformer for
>> >> >variable AC voltage and then full wave bridge to get variable DC
>> >> >voltage.
>> >> > Still waiting on a capacitance and parallel resistance of the test
>> >> > vessel with and without solution.
>> >
>> >> What is the load like electrically? How do you connect to the
>> >> emulsion?
>> >
>> > So far, there is no connection to the emulsion, it is just an
>> > electric field.
>> >Here's a quick drawing showing the setup.
>> >https://www.dropbox.com/s/xt2lyw6lle824ur/OiL%20water%20Vessel.jpg?
dl=0
>> OK, no liquid conduction, just a bit of capacitance.
>>
>> A simple flyback circuit would work: a DC supply, a mosfet or SiC fet,
>> an inductor, maybe a diode or two. Possibly two fets.
>
> But would that allow any pulse width adjustment?
>
>> My Pockels Cell driver is a sort of flyback that recovers the energy
>> from the capacitive load.
>>
>> http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/T850DS.shtml
>>
>> I've been thinking about a similar case, driving pulses into a pretty
>> hunky capacitive load with minimal parts and dissipation, but bigger c,
>> lower v, and higher f.
>>
>> What's a reasonable pulse width and frequency?
>
> One article references 8Hz as the optimal frequency, but no info on
> pulse width.
> I'm suspecting 8Hz is not really the optimum, but had more to do with
> the pulse width they had at that frequency, but, I don't know how they
> developed their pulse. I also have a feeling different oils will require
> different frequency, pulse width and voltage. On the other hand, I'm way
> over my head on both the electronics and the physics of water/Oil
> droplets. I'm winging it as best I can.
> I just read coalescence of (water) molecules only happens during rise
> and fall time of the pulse, so maybe short pulses are fine, but it is a
> physical movement so it takes time. (I don't understand why on fall
> time!)
>
>
>> > There is some evidence that people use electrodes (grids) in the
>> > emulsion, and that will probably be tested at some point.
>
>
>> That would dissipate a lot of power in the liquid, maybe boil it.
>
> I have now idea about the voltage or current with electrode on an
> emulsion.
>
> So, yes, I don't get it.
>
> As always energy use is to be minimized in commercial use.

You got me curious enough to do a search on electrostatic oil water
emulsion separation, finding this:

https://petrowiki.spe.org/PEH:Emulsion_Treating

Table of contents links don't work, scroll down and expand for some
discussions of theory and equipment, tiny images can be expanded.
Apparently if the emulsion contains less than 4% water it will be
nominally non-conductive, and this method appears to be in use only for
removing water from crude oil in combination with other methods at the
moment. It seems like it might work in other applications if at least one
electrode is insulated, probably also in combination with other methods.
Wavy plate coalescer with every other plate insulated perhaps? Results no
doubt heavily dependent on the nature of the emulsion to be separated.

Glen

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 5:28:04 AM UTC-7, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> More oil/water separation.
> The AC vs DC separation test was performed and the AC was probably 10 times better. This was a stubborn emulsion, but the AC did work.
> ( Not throwing DC out yet, need to test other types of oils first.)
> Literature says Pulsed DC is best. So to that end, I want to come up with a way to create 500V to 9000V, 1Hz to 1000Hz, HV DC pulses with variable width. Although, I would be satisfied by 1HZ to 100Hz, as literature says a lower frequency is optimum.
> The little research I have done shows gated pulses (commercial units) versus a square wave into a step up transformer, and rectifying, I suspect because ringing would be a problem. Looked at old style ignition coil drive circuits, but their wave form is an AC decay signal. Not sure how I could make that a single DC pulse.

I suspect the reason for pulsing is that you can excite water ions to avalanche, and want to
have some 'off' time to allow excess ions to recombine. Not sure what the rate is, but it
depends only on water's relaxation, which should be possible to look up. I suspect you
want to wait milliseconds, not nanoseconds... and pH control is going to be important.

The reason for DC is that you want an upper field limit (because the velocity produced
is moderated by viscosity limits and subsequent heating) for modest acceleration of the
droplets. That's going to depend on droplet size distribution. A good supply of known
distribution goo (big jar of mayonnaise?) will be useful. You can make your own
mayo, without the vinegar or lemon juice.

A good vacuum tube circuit can handle a kilovolt of switching, and is easy to drive; for
experimenting, in the likelihood of runaway currents, that's be better than solid state for this.
A variable HV supply, big resistor, and tube to chop the voltage down to zero... should work.

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 8:28:04 AM UTC-4, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> More oil/water separation.
> The AC vs DC separation test was performed and the AC was probably 10 times better. This was a stubborn emulsion, but the AC did work.
> ( Not throwing DC out yet, need to test other types of oils first.)
> Literature says Pulsed DC is best. So to that end, I want to come up with a way to create 500V to 9000V, 1Hz to 1000Hz, HV DC pulses with variable width. Although, I would be satisfied by 1HZ to 100Hz, as literature says a lower frequency is optimum.
> The little research I have done shows gated pulses (commercial units) versus a square wave into a step up transformer, and rectifying, I suspect because ringing would be a problem. Looked at old style ignition coil drive circuits, but their wave form is an AC decay signal. Not sure how I could make that a single DC pulse.
> I'm looking at the simple 555 to create the variable pulse, but after that I'm not sure how to get a decent variable HV DC pulse.
> Any ideas to help me are appreciated,
> Thanks, Mikek
> P.S. We are using a variac driving a neon sign transformer for variable AC voltage and then full wave bridge to get variable DC voltage.
> Still waiting on a capacitance and parallel resistance of the test vessel with and without solution.

If you scrounge some parts from the older microwave oven HV supply, you can make a 60Hz half-wave voltage doubler of about 4kV peak using its HV transformer, diode, and capacitor. Power capability is way overkill, but the parts are free.

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 4:09:24 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 1:07:36 PM UTC-4, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 10:26:42 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> > > On Tue, 9 May 2023 05:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
> > > >P.S. We are using a variac driving a neon sign transformer for variable AC voltage and then full wave bridge to get variable DC voltage.
> > > > Still waiting on a capacitance and parallel resistance of the test vessel with and without solution.
> >
> > > What is the load like electrically? How do you connect to the
> > > emulsion?
> > So far, there is no connection to the emulsion, it is just an electric field.
> > Here's a quick drawing showing the setup.
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/xt2lyw6lle824ur/OiL%20water%20Vessel.jpg?dl=0

> So the line going from the transformer through the top of the centrifuge tube is not a wire? That's an electrode in the emulsion.

Uhm, it is an electrode centered of the glass tube in the emulsion, made of 12gauge copper wire.

> > There is some evidence that people use electrodes (grids) in the emulsion, and that will probably be tested at some point.
> > But, as yet I don't have info on what voltage or current to expect with electrodes in solution.

> It will conduct, probably a lot. It has a large portion of water, no? Remember an emulsion is tiny drops of oil in the water. Even if it is only half water, that's enough to complete a circuit. The centrifuge tube forms a capacitor, between the emulsion and the aluminum tube, with the centrifuge tube as the dielectric. In this case, the separation is 100% due to the conduction of the AC current through the emulsion.
>
> You might do better using a higher frequency, rather than a higher voltage. But then your half wave rectification tests might argue against that. Not sure how you might easily generate higher frequencies than 60 Hz. Can you just interrupt the circuit with a transistor, or a tube?

Well, that was a new thought I had while napping (because I didn't sleep last night thinking about this) I used a fullwave bridge, a halfwave bridge is kinda like a DC pulse, i.e. it give a rest time between electric fields. I'm not clear what the rest time does, but it is easy enough to make it a half wave DC.

> > I'm hoping get my son to do a capacitance/resistance test of the tube and emulsion this week.

> Are you talking about two electrodes in the emulsion? If you mean your current set up, the capacitance will be low and the resistance probably inconsequential. I'm saying the RC filter formed will be dominated by the impedance of the capacitance at 60 Hz.

Hmm, I found a Cylindrical capacitor calculator, on memory of tube size the vessel without emulsion, >air dielectric<, is 2.5pf to 3.5pf.
Water has a permittivity of about 80 (depending), oils, 2.2 to 2.9,
But, 70% oil, 30% water emulsion? I hope to find out some time this week.

Mikek

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 4:14:32 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 3:42:49 PM UTC-4, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> > I just read coalescence of (water) molecules only happens during rise and fall time of the pulse, so maybe short pulses are fine, but it is a physical movement so it takes time. (I don't understand why on fall time!)
> How did they determine that?

No idea,
Quote; "In the presence of a pulsed DC field, coalescence can be observed only during rising and falling edges while no coalescence occurs in the middle of the pulse width" reference to a paper with Chinese all over it but researchers name is Taylor.
https://www.cheric.org/research/tech/periodicals/view.php?seq=51766
Arrgh, I followed up on the journal, Chemical Engineering Research & Design, Vol.74, No.5, 526-540, 1996,
the index stops at Vol.74 No.8, doesn't go back to No. 5.
Oh, found it would be behind Elsevier pay scheme even if available.

> I wouldn't worry about any details as yet. To optimize anything, you first need to characterize and understand the issues. Then you can worry about energy and such. Seems to me, you are a long way from having any idea what is happening or how it might be optimized.

:-) Not concerned, just noting that lots of power is not good.

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 4:45:30 PM UTC-5, Glen Walpert wrote:
> On Tue, 9 May 2023 12:42:44 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston wrote:

> You got me curious enough to do a search on electrostatic oil water
> emulsion separation, finding this:
>
> https://petrowiki.spe.org/PEH:Emulsion_Treating

> Glen

I have not seen that reference, the section, "Emulsion-Treating Equipment" does go into (electrodes) grids submersed in the emulsion.
Thanks, Mikek

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 4:59:04 PM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 8:28:04 AM UTC-4, Lamont Cranston wrote:

> > P.S. We are using a variac driving a neon sign transformer for variable AC voltage and then full wave bridge to get variable DC voltage.
> > Still waiting on a capacitance and parallel resistance of the test vessel with and without solution.
> If you scrounge some parts from the older microwave oven HV supply, you can make a 60Hz half-wave voltage doubler of about 4kV peak using its HV transformer, diode, and capacitor. Power capability is way overkill, but the parts are free.

I have a few MOTs salvaged, but we can run the neon sign transformer on a variac and get up to 9000Vac output and I can put a half-wave voltage doubler on it. Also, it is self limited to 30ma of current.
Thanks, Mikek

On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 8:09:03 PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 5:09:27 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 May 2023 10:07:32 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
> > <amd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 10:26:42?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 9 May 2023 05:27:59 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
> <snip>
> > Does ionic conduction have time lag?
> Ions in water don't move all that fast.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_element
>
> <snip>
>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

I have worked on HV pulsers for field asymmetric ion mobility spectroscopy (FAIMS) that used resonant coils to produce the first few harmonics of a DC waveform. While this work was not published, here is another approach (which I tried, but didn't work):
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=398cb8bdd459203c8358449135f8e33473c15b59

On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 12:55:20 AM UTC-5, Flyguy wrote:

> I have worked on HV pulsers for field asymmetric ion mobility spectroscopy (FAIMS) that used resonant coils to produce the first few harmonics of a DC waveform. While this work was not published, here is another approach (which I tried, but didn't work):
> https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=398cb8bdd459203c8358449135f8e33473c15b59

Thanks for that, I'm don't really understand what it is doing, and I think the high side low side driver gets complicated. Although later down the line
it might be worth having someone more knowledgeable look into that, It's in the file. Thanks.

I was shown this much simpler approach and want some feedback on it.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cascode-voltage-ladder.png
Possibly using these 1400V transistors,
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STN0214?qs=pmcUWs1B1IKOCzUPe9wAgg%3D%3D
My concern, would improper layout add an inductance that could over voltage the devices at shut off?
The resistive voltage divider, How much voltage can you put across a resistor?
Will a 1W withstand a higher voltage the a 1/2 W? (Standard resistors)
I understand there are HV resistors.
Thanks, Mikek

On Wed, 10 May 2023 06:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
<amdx62@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 12:55:20?AM UTC-5, Flyguy wrote:
>
>> I have worked on HV pulsers for field asymmetric ion mobility spectroscopy (FAIMS) that used resonant coils to produce the first few harmonics of a DC waveform. While this work was not published, here is another approach (which I tried, but didn't work):
>> https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=398cb8bdd459203c8358449135f8e33473c15b59
>
> Thanks for that, I'm don't really understand what it is doing, and I think the high side low side driver gets complicated. Although later down the line
>it might be worth having someone more knowledgeable look into that, It's in the file. Thanks.
>
> I was shown this much simpler approach and want some feedback on it.
>https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cascode-voltage-ladder.png
>Possibly using these 1400V transistors,
>https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STN0214?qs=pmcUWs1B1IKOCzUPe9wAgg%3D%3D
> My concern, would improper layout add an inductance that could over voltage the devices at shut off?
>The resistive voltage divider, How much voltage can you put across a resistor?
>Will a 1W withstand a higher voltage the a 1/2 W? (Standard resistors)
>I understand there are HV resistors.
> Thanks, Mikek
>
>

You can easily get a single 1000 volt mosfet. A passive (resistive)
pullup would be all you need to drive a small capacitive load at low
duty cycle. So, given a HV dc supply and a pulse generator, 555 or
something, you need two parts.

If an exotic HV resistor is a hassle, series a few 1-cent axials.

Adding active pullup is easy too. 1 or 2 more parts.

On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 10:24:33 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:

> >
> You can easily get a single 1000 volt mosfet. A passive (resistive)
> pullup would be all you need to drive a small capacitive load at low
> duty cycle. So, given a HV dc supply and a pulse generator, 555 or
> something, you need two parts.
>
> If an exotic HV resistor is a hassle, series a few 1-cent axials.
>
> Adding active pullup is easy too. 1 or 2 more parts.

I want to build it for 7kv just in case, may not need it but would like it available.

On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 10:53:51 AM UTC-5, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

> Since his shortest pulse is 10msec, it's not offering him anything that he actually needs.
> > If an exotic HV resistor is a hassle, series a few 1-cent axials.
> But mount them on teflon insulated stand-offs.
> > Adding active pullup is easy too. 1 or 2 more parts.
> But not at 9kV.
>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

I even have teflon standoffs!
Any comments on the Cascode Voltage Ladder?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cascode-voltage-ladder.png
With 7KV, all the Voltages on the resistor divider will be 7 times higher,
for the bottom one, would I adjust the value to get the 15V.
Mikek

I got some feedback on the capacitance and resistance of the vessel with an emulsion in it.
With just air, 2 to 3 pf, with RP over 200MΩ, the limit of my DE-5000..
Plain water with acid was 120pf, with RP over 200MΩ.
With an emulsion 18pf with RP over 200MΩ.
Mikek

On Wed, 10 May 2023 09:20:46 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
<amdx62@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 10:53:51?AM UTC-5, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>
>> Since his shortest pulse is 10msec, it's not offering him anything that he actually needs.
>> > If an exotic HV resistor is a hassle, series a few 1-cent axials.
>> But mount them on teflon insulated stand-offs.
>> > Adding active pullup is easy too. 1 or 2 more parts.
>> But not at 9kV.
>>
>> --
>> Bill Sloman, Sydney
>
> I even have teflon standoffs!

Air is cheaper.

>Any comments on the Cascode Voltage Ladder?
>https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cascode-voltage-ladder.png
>With 7KV, all the Voltages on the resistor divider will be 7 times higher,
>for the bottom one, would I adjust the value to get the 15V.
> Mikek

That would work with kilovolt mosfets too.

IXYS has an (expensive) 4500 volt mosfet. 1700 volts is more
affordable.

On Wed, 10 May 2023 09:08:39 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
<amdx62@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 10:24:33?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> >
>> You can easily get a single 1000 volt mosfet. A passive (resistive)
>> pullup would be all you need to drive a small capacitive load at low
>> duty cycle. So, given a HV dc supply and a pulse generator, 555 or
>> something, you need two parts.
>>
>> If an exotic HV resistor is a hassle, series a few 1-cent axials.
>>
>> Adding active pullup is easy too. 1 or 2 more parts.
>
> I want to build it for 7kv just in case, may not need it but would like it available.

There are high voltage reed relays too.

On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 11:37:13 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:

> That would work with kilovolt mosfets too.
>
> IXYS has an (expensive) 4500 volt mosfet. 1700 volts is more
> affordable.

Is there something you don't like about the 1400V transistor? At $1.03 each..
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/389/stn0214-1851406.pdf
I'm thinking pulling say 5ma through the transformer secondary while the switch is closed,
and then opening the switch, to say a 5ua load, might cause an inductive spike.
Is that a concern?
I did find a 25,000V tube for $10.
https://tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=807
Mikek

On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 11:38:22 AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 10 May 2023 09:08:39 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
> <amd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 10:24:33?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> >
> >> >
> >> You can easily get a single 1000 volt mosfet. A passive (resistive)
> >> pullup would be all you need to drive a small capacitive load at low
> >> duty cycle. So, given a HV dc supply and a pulse generator, 555 or
> >> something, you need two parts.
> >>
> >> If an exotic HV resistor is a hassle, series a few 1-cent axials.
> >>
> >> Adding active pullup is easy too. 1 or 2 more parts.
> >
> > I want to build it for 7kv just in case, may not need it but would like it available.
> There are high voltage reed relays too.

Would those work at 8hz?
Mikek

On Wed, 10 May 2023 09:49:38 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
<amdx62@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 11:38:22?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 May 2023 09:08:39 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
>> <amd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 10:24:33?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> You can easily get a single 1000 volt mosfet. A passive (resistive)
>> >> pullup would be all you need to drive a small capacitive load at low
>> >> duty cycle. So, given a HV dc supply and a pulse generator, 555 or
>> >> something, you need two parts.
>> >>
>> >> If an exotic HV resistor is a hassle, series a few 1-cent axials.
>> >>
>> >> Adding active pullup is easy too. 1 or 2 more parts.
>> >
>> > I want to build it for 7kv just in case, may not need it but would like it available.
>> There are high voltage reed relays too.
>
> Would those work at 8hz?
> Mikek

Easily. Reeds are fast. Even regular relays work in milliseconds.

Digikey has some HV relays.