Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?

--
Defund the Thought Police

On 14/06/2023 13:29, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?

In the UK I suspect it is still an official secret.

Basically once there was a standardised UK National Grid the NPL were
tasked with providing the time signal information to allow the operators
to maintain long term average frequency stability (and voltage too).

Traffic lights with rush hour bias and synchronous motors relied on it
so I expect that will put a bound on when they first started doing it.
Used to annoy astronomers since in mid winter the frequency would be
noticeably higher during low load times after midnight. Synchronous
drives would therefore run fast and require more manual guiding.

Today they are all on stepper motors locally clocked or DC servos (and
any worthwhile scope will have an autoguider - even amateur ones).

--
Martin Brown

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:42:03 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 14/06/2023 13:29, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
>> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
>> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
>> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
>
>In the UK I suspect it is still an official secret.
>
>Basically once there was a standardised UK National Grid the NPL were
>tasked with providing the time signal information to allow the operators
>to maintain long term average frequency stability (and voltage too).
>
>Traffic lights with rush hour bias and synchronous motors relied on it
>so I expect that will put a bound on when they first started doing it.
>Used to annoy astronomers since in mid winter the frequency would be
>noticeably higher during low load times after midnight. Synchronous
>drives would therefore run fast and require more manual guiding.
>
>Today they are all on stepper motors locally clocked or DC servos (and
>any worthwhile scope will have an autoguider - even amateur ones).

I'd expect that all of europe and UK and Ireland are phase-locked
these days. I wonder how far that extends. Russia? India? China?

Possibly all the links are DC.

On 2023-06-14 16:39, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:42:03 +0100, Martin Brown
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 14/06/2023 13:29, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>>> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
>>> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
>>> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
>>> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
>>
>> In the UK I suspect it is still an official secret.
>>
>> Basically once there was a standardised UK National Grid the NPL were
>> tasked with providing the time signal information to allow the operators
>> to maintain long term average frequency stability (and voltage too).
>>
>> Traffic lights with rush hour bias and synchronous motors relied on it
>> so I expect that will put a bound on when they first started doing it.
>> Used to annoy astronomers since in mid winter the frequency would be
>> noticeably higher during low load times after midnight. Synchronous
>> drives would therefore run fast and require more manual guiding.
>>
>> Today they are all on stepper motors locally clocked or DC servos (and
>> any worthwhile scope will have an autoguider - even amateur ones).
>
> I'd expect that all of europe and UK and Ireland are phase-locked
> these days. I wonder how far that extends. Russia? India? China?

Europe only, AFAIK.

> Possibly all the links are DC.

No.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 8:29:48 AM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?

I can't tell you when they started maintaining power frequency, but Google surely can.

In the US, the grid is no longer required to be maintained for time keeping..

In the past, rather than running at a fixed frequency, which would have been very difficult, the time was tracked and frequency deviations were made up by running the opposite for a while. The goal being that electric clocks would not drift, other than a few seconds each way.

With the widespread adoption of time pieces regulated by quartz oscillators, the need for electric clock accuracy became less significant. The electric power providers pushed to eliminate this process of making up time and now only adhere to a, not so tight, frequency specification.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 6/14/2023 11:37 AM, Ricky wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 8:29:48 AM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
>> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
>> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
>> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
>
> I can't tell you when they started maintaining power frequency, but Google surely can.
>
> In the US, the grid is no longer required to be maintained for time keeping.
>
> In the past, rather than running at a fixed frequency, which would have been very difficult, the time was tracked and frequency deviations were made up by running the opposite for a while. The goal being that electric clocks would not drift, other than a few seconds each way.
>
> With the widespread adoption of time pieces regulated by quartz oscillators, the need for electric clock accuracy became less significant. The electric power providers pushed to eliminate this process of making up time and now only adhere to a, not so tight, frequency specification.
>
Since they reduced the requirements for power line frequency stability
I have been checking my electric clock against my wrist watch which is
radio controlled*. For the last year or two my electric clock has been
holding to the correct time within in less than 30 seconds per day.
That is there is a window of less than 30 seconds that it stays within.
It may change more than 10 seconds in any one day, but it hasn't strayed
outside of that 30 second window. I have not had to reset the clock in
that time.

So the US power line frequency is very good long term, but not so great
short term.

Bill

*The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has a
radio station in Boulder, Colorado which broadcasts the official
time and frequency continuously. A radio controlled watch (or clock)
receives this signal and corrects the watch at regular intervals.
The time on such a watch is therefore extremely reliable.

On 2023-06-14 18:54, Bill Gill wrote:
> On 6/14/2023 11:37 AM, Ricky wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 8:29:48 AM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>>> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
>>> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
>>> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
>>> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
>>
>> I can't tell you when they started maintaining power frequency, but
>> Google surely can.
>>
>> In the US, the grid is no longer required to be maintained for time
>> keeping.
>>
>> In the past, rather than running at a fixed frequency, which would
>> have been very difficult, the time was tracked and frequency
>> deviations were made up by running the opposite for a while.  The goal
>> being that electric clocks would not drift, other than a few seconds
>> each way.
>>
>> With the widespread adoption of time pieces regulated by quartz
>> oscillators, the need for electric clock accuracy became less
>> significant.  The electric power providers pushed to eliminate this
>> process of making up time and now only adhere to a, not so tight,
>> frequency specification.
>>
> Since they reduced the requirements for power line frequency stability
> I have been checking my electric clock against my wrist watch which is
> radio controlled*.  For the last year or two my electric clock has been
> holding to the correct time within in less than 30 seconds per day.
> That is there is a window of less than 30 seconds that it stays within.
> It may change more than 10 seconds in any one day, but it hasn't strayed
> outside of that 30 second window.  I have not had to reset the clock in
> that time.
>
> So the US power line frequency is very good long term, but not so great
> short term.
>
> Bill
>
> *The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has a
> radio station in Boulder, Colorado which broadcasts the official
> time and frequency continuously.  A radio controlled watch (or clock)
> receives this signal and corrects the watch at regular intervals.
> The time on such a watch is therefore extremely reliable.

One very common thing are timers running a synchronous motor with gears,
and plastic ticks to switch the power on or off periodically for anything.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 16:42:37 +0200, "Carlos E. R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2023-06-14 16:39, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:42:03 +0100, Martin Brown
>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/06/2023 13:29, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>>>> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
>>>> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
>>>> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
>>>> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
>>>
>>> In the UK I suspect it is still an official secret.
>>>
>>> Basically once there was a standardised UK National Grid the NPL were
>>> tasked with providing the time signal information to allow the operators
>>> to maintain long term average frequency stability (and voltage too).
>>>
>>> Traffic lights with rush hour bias and synchronous motors relied on it
>>> so I expect that will put a bound on when they first started doing it.
>>> Used to annoy astronomers since in mid winter the frequency would be
>>> noticeably higher during low load times after midnight. Synchronous
>>> drives would therefore run fast and require more manual guiding.
>>>
>>> Today they are all on stepper motors locally clocked or DC servos (and
>>> any worthwhile scope will have an autoguider - even amateur ones).
>>
>> I'd expect that all of europe and UK and Ireland are phase-locked
>> these days. I wonder how far that extends. Russia? India? China?
>
>Europe only, AFAIK.
>
>> Possibly all the links are DC.
>
>No.

Are there undersea links, UK to europe, that are AC?

On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 8:29:48 AM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
>
> --
> Defund the Thought Police

https://www.nist.gov/publications/time-and-frequency-electrical-power-lines

On 6/14/2023 9:54 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
> Since they reduced the requirements for power line frequency stability
> I have been checking my electric clock against my wrist watch which is
> radio controlled*.  For the last year or two my electric clock has been
> holding to the correct time within in less than 30 seconds per day.
> That is there is a window of less than 30 seconds that it stays within.
> It may change more than 10 seconds in any one day, but it hasn't strayed
> outside of that 30 second window.  I have not had to reset the clock in
> that time.

Agreed. I've traditionally used a line frequency clock as a timebase
in products to discipline the processor's oscillator. (it also lets
you detect outages, etc.).

I've been running a "userland" daemon that monitors the line frequency
(a really gross hack so no kernel mods needed) and it's still within a
minute of the "real time" after a year. (I rely on the calibration
of the local oscillator to maintain proper time for those periods when
power is absent so I'm not reliant on the LFC for timekeeping per se.)

> So the US power line frequency is very good long term, but not so great
> short term.

You use the LFC for long term stability and to get an idea as to your
local oscillator's accuracy. As environmental conditions tend to
be relatively stable, this gives remarkable performance for close to
zero cost. ("It's just software")

> *The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has a
> radio station in Boulder, Colorado which broadcasts the official
> time and frequency continuously.  A radio controlled watch (or clock)
> receives this signal and corrects the watch at regular intervals.
> The time on such a watch is therefore extremely reliable.

WWV. So-(incorrectly-)called "atomic clocks".

CHU does the same for our neighbors to the north (?)

On a sunny day (Wed, 14 Jun 2023 11:54:58 -0500) it happened Bill Gill
<billnews2@cox.net> wrote in <u6crd2$2q96$1@dont-email.me>:

>On 6/14/2023 11:37 AM, Ricky wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 8:29:48 AM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>>> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
>>> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
>>> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
>>> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
>>
>> I can't tell you when they started maintaining power frequency, but Google surely can.
>>
>> In the US, the grid is no longer required to be maintained for time keeping.
>>
>> In the past, rather than running at a fixed frequency, which would have been very difficult, the time was tracked and
>> frequency deviations were made up by running the opposite for a while. The goal being that electric clocks would not drift, other than
>> a few seconds each way.
>>
>> With the widespread adoption of time pieces regulated by quartz oscillators, the need for electric clock accuracy became less
>> significant. The electric power providers pushed to eliminate this process of making up time and now only adhere to a, not so
>> tight, frequency specification.
>>
>Since they reduced the requirements for power line frequency stability
>I have been checking my electric clock against my wrist watch which is
>radio controlled*. For the last year or two my electric clock has been
>holding to the correct time within in less than 30 seconds per day.
>That is there is a window of less than 30 seconds that it stays within.
>It may change more than 10 seconds in any one day, but it hasn't strayed
>outside of that 30 second window. I have not had to reset the clock in
>that time.
>
>So the US power line frequency is very good long term, but not so great
>short term.

Same here in Europe, I have a Casio radio contolled watch (DCF) and clock,
but my mains controlled microwave and radio clock hardly drift.
There was a problem some years ago where there was a large shift:
https://hackaday.com/2018/03/09/europe-loses-six-minutes-due-to-sagging-frequency-and-international-politics/
Some computers here get time from the internet, and some of mine from GPS.
GPS indoor reception is not always guaranteed.
internet connection neither.
DCF77 long wave seems to give very reliable time everywhere here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77

What more do you need to get up on time;-)
My satellite receiver clocks get time from the received signal,
and the terrestrial ones the same.
Of course I also have an big battery powered one that ticks...
The end of the world clock:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock

I'd say 2024

On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 2:30:58 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 6/14/2023 9:54 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
> > Since they reduced the requirements for power line frequency stability
> > I have been checking my electric clock against my wrist watch which is
> > radio controlled*. For the last year or two my electric clock has been
> > holding to the correct time within in less than 30 seconds per day.
> > That is there is a window of less than 30 seconds that it stays within.
> > It may change more than 10 seconds in any one day, but it hasn't strayed
> > outside of that 30 second window. I have not had to reset the clock in
> > that time.
> Agreed. I've traditionally used a line frequency clock as a timebase
> in products to discipline the processor's oscillator. (it also lets
> you detect outages, etc.).
>
> I've been running a "userland" daemon that monitors the line frequency
> (a really gross hack so no kernel mods needed) and it's still within a
> minute of the "real time" after a year. (I rely on the calibration
> of the local oscillator to maintain proper time for those periods when
> power is absent so I'm not reliant on the LFC for timekeeping per se.)
> > So the US power line frequency is very good long term, but not so great
> > short term.
> You use the LFC for long term stability and to get an idea as to your
> local oscillator's accuracy. As environmental conditions tend to
> be relatively stable, this gives remarkable performance for close to
> zero cost. ("It's just software")
> > *The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has a
> > radio station in Boulder, Colorado which broadcasts the official
> > time and frequency continuously. A radio controlled watch (or clock)
> > receives this signal and corrects the watch at regular intervals.
> > The time on such a watch is therefore extremely reliable.
> WWV. So-(incorrectly-)called "atomic clocks".
>
> CHU does the same for our neighbors to the north (?)

"Atomic" refers to the clocks at the WWVB facilities. The time transmitted by WWVB uses atomic clocks to keep the time.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 1:00:59 PM UTC-4, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-06-14 18:54, Bill Gill wrote:
> > On 6/14/2023 11:37 AM, Ricky wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 8:29:48 AM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> >>> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
> >>> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
> >>> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
> >>> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
> >>
> >> I can't tell you when they started maintaining power frequency, but
> >> Google surely can.
> >>
> >> In the US, the grid is no longer required to be maintained for time
> >> keeping.
> >>
> >> In the past, rather than running at a fixed frequency, which would
> >> have been very difficult, the time was tracked and frequency
> >> deviations were made up by running the opposite for a while. The goal
> >> being that electric clocks would not drift, other than a few seconds
> >> each way.
> >>
> >> With the widespread adoption of time pieces regulated by quartz
> >> oscillators, the need for electric clock accuracy became less
> >> significant. The electric power providers pushed to eliminate this
> >> process of making up time and now only adhere to a, not so tight,
> >> frequency specification.
> >>
> > Since they reduced the requirements for power line frequency stability
> > I have been checking my electric clock against my wrist watch which is
> > radio controlled*. For the last year or two my electric clock has been
> > holding to the correct time within in less than 30 seconds per day.
> > That is there is a window of less than 30 seconds that it stays within.
> > It may change more than 10 seconds in any one day, but it hasn't strayed
> > outside of that 30 second window. I have not had to reset the clock in
> > that time.
> >
> > So the US power line frequency is very good long term, but not so great
> > short term.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > *The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has a
> > radio station in Boulder, Colorado which broadcasts the official
> > time and frequency continuously. A radio controlled watch (or clock)
> > receives this signal and corrects the watch at regular intervals.
> > The time on such a watch is therefore extremely reliable.
> One very common thing are timers running a synchronous motor with gears,
> and plastic ticks to switch the power on or off periodically for anything..

Such timers typically maintain a very slack time. The mechanical trips are not at all very precise, set to the minute at best. They are also subject to time slips on power failures.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 1:18:32 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Wed, 14 Jun 2023 11:54:58 -0500) it happened Bill Gill
> <bill...@cox.net> wrote in <u6crd2$2q96$1...@dont-email.me>:
> >On 6/14/2023 11:37 AM, Ricky wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 8:29:48 AM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
> >>> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
> >>> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
> >>> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
> >>> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
> >>
> >> I can't tell you when they started maintaining power frequency, but Google surely can.
> >>
> >> In the US, the grid is no longer required to be maintained for time keeping.
> >>
> >> In the past, rather than running at a fixed frequency, which would have been very difficult, the time was tracked and
> >> frequency deviations were made up by running the opposite for a while. The goal being that electric clocks would not drift, other than
> >> a few seconds each way.
> >>
> >> With the widespread adoption of time pieces regulated by quartz oscillators, the need for electric clock accuracy became less
> >> significant. The electric power providers pushed to eliminate this process of making up time and now only adhere to a, not so
> >> tight, frequency specification.
> >>
> >Since they reduced the requirements for power line frequency stability
> >I have been checking my electric clock against my wrist watch which is
> >radio controlled*. For the last year or two my electric clock has been
> >holding to the correct time within in less than 30 seconds per day.
> >That is there is a window of less than 30 seconds that it stays within.
> >It may change more than 10 seconds in any one day, but it hasn't strayed
> >outside of that 30 second window. I have not had to reset the clock in
> >that time.
> >
> >So the US power line frequency is very good long term, but not so great
> >short term.
> Same here in Europe, I have a Casio radio contolled watch (DCF) and clock,
> but my mains controlled microwave and radio clock hardly drift.
> There was a problem some years ago where there was a large shift:
> https://hackaday.com/2018/03/09/europe-loses-six-minutes-due-to-sagging-frequency-and-international-politics/
> Some computers here get time from the internet, and some of mine from GPS..
> GPS indoor reception is not always guaranteed.
> internet connection neither.
> DCF77 long wave seems to give very reliable time everywhere here:
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77
>
> What more do you need to get up on time;-)
> My satellite receiver clocks get time from the received signal,
> and the terrestrial ones the same.
> Of course I also have an big battery powered one that ticks...
> The end of the world clock:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock
>
> I'd say 2024

Which day, what time? I mean, you are talking about timing precision to fractions of a second, then start talking about resolutions of seasons.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On a sunny day (Wed, 14 Jun 2023 22:33:44 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<7f6fd184-0033-4857-9527-d4abe9380602n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 1:18:32 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote=
>:
>> On a sunny day (Wed, 14 Jun 2023 11:54:58 -0500) it happened Bill Gill
>> <bill...@cox.net> wrote in <u6crd2$2q96$1...@dont-email.me>:
>> >On 6/14/2023 11:37 AM, Ricky wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, June 14, 2023 at 8:29:48 AM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso=
> wrote:
>> >>> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years=
>
>> >>> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using =
>a
>> >>> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in =
>the
>> >>> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
>> >>
>> >> I can't tell you when they started maintaining power frequency, but Go=
>ogle surely can.
>> >>
>> >> In the US, the grid is no longer required to be maintained for time ke=
>eping.
>> >>
>> >> In the past, rather than running at a fixed frequency, which would hav=
>e been very difficult, the time was tracked and
>> >> frequency deviations were made up by running the opposite for a while.=
> The goal being that electric clocks would not drift, other than
>> >> a few seconds each way.
>> >>
>> >> With the widespread adoption of time pieces regulated by quartz oscill=
>ators, the need for electric clock accuracy became less
>> >> significant. The electric power providers pushed to eliminate this pro=
>cess of making up time and now only adhere to a, not so
>> >> tight, frequency specification.
>> >>
>> >Since they reduced the requirements for power line frequency stability=
>
>> >I have been checking my electric clock against my wrist watch which is=
>
>> >radio controlled*. For the last year or two my electric clock has been=
>
>> >holding to the correct time within in less than 30 seconds per day.
>> >That is there is a window of less than 30 seconds that it stays within.=
>
>> >It may change more than 10 seconds in any one day, but it hasn't strayed=
>
>> >outside of that 30 second window. I have not had to reset the clock in=
>
>> >that time.
>> >
>> >So the US power line frequency is very good long term, but not so great=
>
>> >short term.
>> Same here in Europe, I have a Casio radio contolled watch (DCF) and clock=
>,
>> but my mains controlled microwave and radio clock hardly drift.
>> There was a problem some years ago where there was a large shift:
>> https://hackaday.com/2018/03/09/europe-loses-six-minutes-due-to-sagging-f=
>requency-and-international-politics/
>> Some computers here get time from the internet, and some of mine from GPS=
>.
>> GPS indoor reception is not always guaranteed.
>> internet connection neither.
>> DCF77 long wave seems to give very reliable time everywhere here:
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77
>>
>> What more do you need to get up on time;-)
>> My satellite receiver clocks get time from the received signal,
>> and the terrestrial ones the same.
>> Of course I also have an big battery powered one that ticks...
>> The end of the world clock:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock
>>
>> I'd say 2024
>
>Which day, what time? I mean, you are talking about timing precision to fr=
>actions of a second, then start talking about resolutions of seasons.

Just make sure that you have your prepper stuff ready on Jan 1
Then you can't go wrong

On 2023-06-14 19:01, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 16:42:37 +0200, "Carlos E. R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-06-14 16:39, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:42:03 +0100, Martin Brown
>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 14/06/2023 13:29, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>>>>> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
>>>>> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
>>>>> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
>>>>> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
>>>>
>>>> In the UK I suspect it is still an official secret.
>>>>
>>>> Basically once there was a standardised UK National Grid the NPL were
>>>> tasked with providing the time signal information to allow the operators
>>>> to maintain long term average frequency stability (and voltage too).
>>>>
>>>> Traffic lights with rush hour bias and synchronous motors relied on it
>>>> so I expect that will put a bound on when they first started doing it.
>>>> Used to annoy astronomers since in mid winter the frequency would be
>>>> noticeably higher during low load times after midnight. Synchronous
>>>> drives would therefore run fast and require more manual guiding.
>>>>
>>>> Today they are all on stepper motors locally clocked or DC servos (and
>>>> any worthwhile scope will have an autoguider - even amateur ones).
>>>
>>> I'd expect that all of europe and UK and Ireland are phase-locked
>>> these days. I wonder how far that extends. Russia? India? China?
>>
>> Europe only, AFAIK.
>>
>>> Possibly all the links are DC.
>>
>> No.
>
> Are there undersea links, UK to europe, that are AC?

I'm not sure.

AFAIK DC is preferred for undersea or underground connections beyond
certain lenght.

Google says:

Is the UK power grid connected to Europe?
As of 2023, National Grid operates five interconnectors, connecting the
UK with France, The Netherlands, Belgium and Norway. Our sixth
interconnector, Viking Link, is currently under construction and will
join the UK with Denmark.

What are electricity interconnectors? | National Grid Group

<https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/energy-explained/what-are-electricity-interconnectors>
<https://www.nationalgrid.com/national-grid-ventures/interconnectors-connecting-cleaner-future>

They do not say if all are DC. The last one, North Sea Link (NSL), is.

The UK grid is connected to adjacent European electrical grids by
submarine power cables at an electricity interconnection level
(transmission capacity relative to production capacity) which was 6% as
of 2014. As of 2022, the total capacity of these connectors is about 7.7 GW.

National Grid (Great Britain) - Wikipedia
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › National_Grid_(Great_...

Interconnectors

There is a 40 MW AC cable to the Isle of Man, the Isle of Man to England
Interconnector.

The UK grid is connected to adjacent European electrical grids by
submarine power cables at an electricity interconnection level
(transmission capacity relative to production capacity) which was 6% as
of 2014.[39]

As of 2022, the total capacity of these connectors is about 7.7
GW.[citation needed] They include direct-current cables to northern
France (2 GW HVDC Cross-Channel, 1 GW HVDC IFA-2, 1 GW ElecLink via the
Channel Tunnel[40]); Belgium (1 GW HVDC Nemo Link); the Netherlands (1
GW HVDC BritNed); Norway (1.4 GW HDVC North Sea Link); Northern Ireland
(500 MW HVDC Moyle Interconnector); and the Republic of Ireland (500 MW
HVDC East–West Interconnector).

A link is under construction to Denmark (1.4 GW Viking Link) which is
due to be completed in 2023. A further 500 MW link with the Republic of
Ireland (Greenlink) is scheduled for 2024.[41] Further potential schemes
include links with Germany (NeuConnect, 1.4 GW); Iceland (Icelink,
around 1 GW)[42] and Morocco (3.6 GW from new battery-backed solar
generation).[43]

So the one to the Isle of Man is AC, the rest appear to be DC.

But you asked initially about "all of europe and UK and Ireland"; the
land connections in most of the EU are AC, AFAIK.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 07:39:03 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:42:03 +0100, Martin Brown
><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 14/06/2023 13:29, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>>> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
>>> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
>>> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
>>> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
>>
>>In the UK I suspect it is still an official secret.
>>
>>Basically once there was a standardised UK National Grid the NPL were
>>tasked with providing the time signal information to allow the operators
>>to maintain long term average frequency stability (and voltage too).
>>
>>Traffic lights with rush hour bias and synchronous motors relied on it
>>so I expect that will put a bound on when they first started doing it.
>>Used to annoy astronomers since in mid winter the frequency would be
>>noticeably higher during low load times after midnight. Synchronous
>>drives would therefore run fast and require more manual guiding.
>>
>>Today they are all on stepper motors locally clocked or DC servos (and
>>any worthwhile scope will have an autoguider - even amateur ones).
>
>I'd expect that all of europe and UK and Ireland are phase-locked
>these days. I wonder how far that extends. Russia? India? China?
>

Most of Continental Europe is in a single synchronous network. CIS
(Russia etc.) have their own network. UK has their own network as well
as Scandinavia.

In the Scandinavian net, the frequency normally varies between 59.9
and 50.1 Hz depending on loading changes.
https://www.svk.se/en/national-grid/the-control-room/

>Possibly all the links are DC.

There are HVDC links between all these networks.

On 2023-06-15 13:44, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

> Most of Continental Europe is in a single synchronous network. CIS
> (Russia etc.) have their own network. UK has their own network as well
> as Scandinavia.
>
> In the Scandinavian net, the frequency normally varies between 59.9
> and 50.1 Hz depending on loading changes.
> https://www.svk.se/en/national-grid/the-control-room/
>
>> Possibly all the links are DC.
>
> There are HVDC links between all these networks.

Typo? It is 49.9 to 50.1 Hz.

On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 13:36:48 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2023-06-14 19:01, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 16:42:37 +0200, "Carlos E. R."
>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-06-14 16:39, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:42:03 +0100, Martin Brown
>>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 14/06/2023 13:29, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
>>>>>> Turbine generators turn at a regulated frequency, and even 100+ years
>>>>>> ago they must have kept it somewhat close to optimum, probably using a
>>>>>> mechanical regulator. When did they start doing it with precision in the
>>>>>> expectation that customers would depend on it as a time base?
>>>>>
>>>>> In the UK I suspect it is still an official secret.
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically once there was a standardised UK National Grid the NPL were
>>>>> tasked with providing the time signal information to allow the operators
>>>>> to maintain long term average frequency stability (and voltage too).
>>>>>
>>>>> Traffic lights with rush hour bias and synchronous motors relied on it
>>>>> so I expect that will put a bound on when they first started doing it.
>>>>> Used to annoy astronomers since in mid winter the frequency would be
>>>>> noticeably higher during low load times after midnight. Synchronous
>>>>> drives would therefore run fast and require more manual guiding.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today they are all on stepper motors locally clocked or DC servos (and
>>>>> any worthwhile scope will have an autoguider - even amateur ones).
>>>>
>>>> I'd expect that all of europe and UK and Ireland are phase-locked
>>>> these days. I wonder how far that extends. Russia? India? China?
>>>
>>> Europe only, AFAIK.
>>>
>>>> Possibly all the links are DC.
>>>
>>> No.
>>
>> Are there undersea links, UK to europe, that are AC?
>
>I'm not sure.
>
>AFAIK DC is preferred for undersea or underground connections beyond
>certain lenght.
>
>Google says:
>
>Is the UK power grid connected to Europe?
>As of 2023, National Grid operates five interconnectors, connecting the
>UK with France, The Netherlands, Belgium and Norway. Our sixth
>interconnector, Viking Link, is currently under construction and will
>join the UK with Denmark.
>
>What are electricity interconnectors? | National Grid Group
>
><https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/energy-explained/what-are-electricity-interconnectors>
><https://www.nationalgrid.com/national-grid-ventures/interconnectors-connecting-cleaner-future>
>
>
>They do not say if all are DC. The last one, North Sea Link (NSL), is.
>
>
>The UK grid is connected to adjacent European electrical grids by
>submarine power cables at an electricity interconnection level
>(transmission capacity relative to production capacity) which was 6% as
>of 2014. As of 2022, the total capacity of these connectors is about 7.7 GW.
>
>National Grid (Great Britain) - Wikipedia
>Wikipedia
>https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › National_Grid_(Great_...
>
>
>Interconnectors
>
>There is a 40 MW AC cable to the Isle of Man, the Isle of Man to England
>Interconnector.
>
>The UK grid is connected to adjacent European electrical grids by
>submarine power cables at an electricity interconnection level
>(transmission capacity relative to production capacity) which was 6% as
>of 2014.[39]
>
>As of 2022, the total capacity of these connectors is about 7.7
>GW.[citation needed] They include direct-current cables to northern
>France (2 GW HVDC Cross-Channel, 1 GW HVDC IFA-2, 1 GW ElecLink via the
>Channel Tunnel[40]); Belgium (1 GW HVDC Nemo Link); the Netherlands (1
>GW HVDC BritNed); Norway (1.4 GW HDVC North Sea Link); Northern Ireland
>(500 MW HVDC Moyle Interconnector); and the Republic of Ireland (500 MW
>HVDC East–West Interconnector).
>
>A link is under construction to Denmark (1.4 GW Viking Link) which is
>due to be completed in 2023. A further 500 MW link with the Republic of
>Ireland (Greenlink) is scheduled for 2024.[41] Further potential schemes
>include links with Germany (NeuConnect, 1.4 GW); Iceland (Icelink,
>around 1 GW)[42] and Morocco (3.6 GW from new battery-backed solar
>generation).[43]
>
>
>
>
>So the one to the Isle of Man is AC, the rest appear to be DC.
>
>But you asked initially about "all of europe and UK and Ireland"; the
>land connections in most of the EU are AC, AFAIK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continental_Europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continental_Europe#/media/File:Wide_area_synchronous_grid_(Eurasia,_Mediterranean).png

Texas seems to have its own phase. South America has Spanish and
Portugese phases. Grey seems to mean no phase at all.

On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 7:50:32 AM UTC-4, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
> On 2023-06-15 13:44, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
>
> > Most of Continental Europe is in a single synchronous network. CIS
> > (Russia etc.) have their own network. UK has their own network as well
> > as Scandinavia.
> >
> > In the Scandinavian net, the frequency normally varies between 59.9
> > and 50.1 Hz depending on loading changes.
> > https://www.svk.se/en/national-grid/the-control-room/
> >
> >> Possibly all the links are DC.
> >
> > There are HVDC links between all these networks.
> Typo? It is 49.9 to 50.1 Hz.

Yes, 50 Hz DC. Sure, why not?

--

Rick C.

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