On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 9:52:43 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 03:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 11:38:22?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing.. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it's gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.
> >> >
> >> >" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing."- may not apply to the Titan.
> >> >
> >> >"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m]."
> >> >
> >> >"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible's auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles."- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.
> >> >
> >> >"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world's largest submersible of the same type. "
> >> >
> >> >https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/
> >> >
> >> >https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_incident
> >>
> >> "In a 2022 dive to the Titanic, one of the thrusters on the Titan was
> >> accidentally installed backwards and the submersible started spinning
> >> in circles when trying to move forward near the sea floor. As
> >> documented by the BBC documentary Take Me to Titanic, the issue was
> >> bypassed by steering while holding the game controller sideways."
> >
> >The whole thing sounds more and more like a mentor-less undergraduate engineering group project where nobody knows what they're doing.
> And the leader, the lost Stockton Rush, was a thrill seeker. He was
> also very impatient. For some people, dancing at the edge of death is
> a sport.

He didn't think he was dancing at the edge of death, he thought it was very safe.

>
> That's probably in our genes. A tribe needs some suicidal lunatics to
> explore and hunt and fight. The tribal chief can inherit their mates.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockton_Rush#Career
>
> I love to take risks, but the consequences of failure is usually a
> failed simulation or a shorted mosfet, not my life. I blew up some
> solid-state relays last week... what a thrill.

Risks most usually arise from incomplete preparation.

On 6/23/2023 9:52 AM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 03:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 11:38:22?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it's gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.
>>>>
>>>> " The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing."- may not apply to the Titan.
>>>>
>>>> "But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m]."
>>>>
>>>> "As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible's auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles."- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.
>>>>
>>>> "Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world's largest submersible of the same type. "
>>>>
>>>> https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/
>>>>
>>>> https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_incident
>>>
>>> "In a 2022 dive to the Titanic, one of the thrusters on the Titan was
>>> accidentally installed backwards and the submersible started spinning
>>> in circles when trying to move forward near the sea floor. As
>>> documented by the BBC documentary Take Me to Titanic, the issue was
>>> bypassed by steering while holding the game controller sideways."
>>
>> The whole thing sounds more and more like a mentor-less undergraduate engineering group project where nobody knows what they're doing.
>
> And the leader, the lost Stockton Rush, was a thrill seeker. He was
> also very impatient. For some people, dancing at the edge of death is
> a sport.

Sadly, some significant number of these deaths were guilty of no crime
other than being relatively gullible and susceptible to right-wing
propaganda:

<https://healthfeedback.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/united-states-rates-of-covid-19-deaths-by-vaccination-status-1-1024x723.png>

Not a thrill worth dying for.

> That's probably in our genes. A tribe needs some suicidal lunatics to
> explore and hunt and fight. The tribal chief can inherit their mates.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockton_Rush#Career

Joe Rogan was a bad-ass until the day he got really sick and then he
went running for the best life-saving treatments money could buy; guess
he finally wasn't too confident his alpha genes or whatever could pass
the serious tests when the chips were down.

> I love to take risks, but the consequences of failure is usually a
> failed simulation or a shorted mosfet, not my life. I blew up some
> solid-state relays last week... what a thrill.
>

I think anyone who's skeptical of climate science should be skeptical of
evolutionary psychology; the field suffers from similar problems of
being difficult to test anywhere but simulation.

At least the Navier-Stokes equations have a pretty solid real-world
track record outside the computer, meanwhile there are social
scientists/evolutionary psychologists doing computer simulations of
introvert/extrovert dynamics, trying to find tipping points where too
many extroverted leader-types cause groups to fracture.

All of that I guess assuming things like introversion/extroversion are
real things you can quantify about a particular person, like the
viscosity of a particular fluid.

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 00:21:10 -0700 (PDT), John Walliker
<jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 05:52:46 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:27:25?PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>> > On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 7:55:54?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it's gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.
>> > > >
>> > > >" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing."- may not apply to the Titan.
>> > > >
>> > > >"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m]."
>> > > >
>> > > >"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible's auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles."- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.
>> > > "Future manned submersibles" from these idiots sounds unlikely. They
>> > > should have tested it to 8000 meters.
>> > > >
>> > > >"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world's largest submersible of the same type. "
>> > > Was.
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/
>> > > >
>> > > >https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html
>> > >
>> > > I'd expect that carbon fiber is strong in tension, which is what a
>> > > pressurized airplane or a hydrogen tank needs. But in compression? You
>> > > seem the same effect in wood, stronger in tension than compression
>> > > because it can buckle.
>> > And how does fiber in tension resist a force perpendicular to its surface. Reports say it's 5 inches thick.
>> That's just basic statics. Read a sophomore text book on the topic. They should have a good example of analyzing an I-beam. > Same concept.
>
>Perhaps closer to the real situation there is plenty of analysis of Euler instability
>in cylindrical structures. For example:
>https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/41167884.pdf
>
>John

That's loading on a long solid cylinder. The more likely failure mode
of the sub was radial collapse of a long, relatively thin-wall hollow
cylinder from external pressure.

We just had a deck rebuilt. One side is tied to a header on the house
and the two outside corners are supported by long 4x4 wood posts. The
failure mode of the posts would be buckling, so I researched that.

On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Jun 2023 16:01:33 +0100) it happened Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <u74c4l$3ojiv$1@dont-email.me>:

>On 23/06/2023 14:54, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 08:19:34 +0100, Martin Brown
>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/06/2023 05:01, bud-- wrote:
>>>> On 6/22/2023 4:50 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>> The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing.
>>>>> A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a
>>>>> desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make
>>>>> noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it's gone
>>>>> in a flash.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone who know anything about submersibles share that opinion.
>>>>
>>>> Navy (?) reports buoys hearing a sound consistent with implosion a
>>>> little after communication was lost. Implosion should not be surprising
>>>
>>> Implosion is more or less guaranteed once hull integrity is breached.
>>>
>>> What is less clear is why did the vessel actually fail so quickly that
>>> the crew had no chance to raise the alarm.
>>
>> If the hull buckled, they were probably crushed in milliseconds.
>
>However, reports seem to suggest comms loss preceded the implosion that
>the navy listening devices heard by minutes or hours.
>
>I agree that once the thing starts to crumple the acceleration of the
>implosion will be very fast and extremely energetic. Much like a classic
>filament light bulb when you pop the glass envelope.

I once had a shot as a kid at an old TV CRT, had put it behind the garden shed for safety
Very few debris found, the pieces must have flown far away...

Later, where I worked in the studio, a colleague heard a cracking noise coming from a CRT monitor
he decided that was a good moment to leave and get a cup of coffee.
When he came back the glass pieces were sticking in the thick metal sound proof studio door.
Not sure what happens underwater, but the implosion will likely be followed
by pieces flying all over the place in such a case too.

On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:35:38 -0400) it happened bitrex
<user@example.net> wrote in <dZilM.36973$Vpga.24135@fx09.iad>:

>On 6/23/2023 9:52 AM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 03:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 11:38:22?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not
>>>>> unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in
>>>>> 6000 psi water, it's gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.
>>>>>
>>>>> " The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing."- may not
>>>>> apply to the Titan.
>>>>>
>>>>> "But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m]."
>>>>>
>>>>> "As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests.
>>>>> Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed
>>>>> acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two
>>>>> processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible's auxiliary device and will give the driver
>>>>> real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles."- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic
>>>>> sensor system and was fired.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world's largest
>>>>> submersible of the same type. "
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_incident
>>>>
>>>> "In a 2022 dive to the Titanic, one of the thrusters on the Titan was
>>>> accidentally installed backwards and the submersible started spinning
>>>> in circles when trying to move forward near the sea floor. As
>>>> documented by the BBC documentary Take Me to Titanic, the issue was
>>>> bypassed by steering while holding the game controller sideways."
>>>
>>> The whole thing sounds more and more like a mentor-less undergraduate engineering group project where nobody knows what
>>> they're doing.
>>
>> And the leader, the lost Stockton Rush, was a thrill seeker. He was
>> also very impatient. For some people, dancing at the edge of death is
>> a sport.
>
>Sadly, some significant number of these deaths were guilty of no crime
>other than being relatively gullible and susceptible to right-wing
>propaganda:
>
><https://healthfeedback.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/united-states-rates-of-covid-19-deaths-by-vaccination-status-1-1024x723.pn

well I did not get any anti-covid shots
Never had a cold

But many many died from heart failure and had brain damage from blood cloth that were guided by the Pharmaceutical Industrial Complex shots commercials.
Of course I died too, went to 'effen, and was not allowed in because I did not have the 4 (I think it was) shots,
so went to that place down below, but the boss there did not want any competition.
So I jam here.,
You are a puppet on a string

millions have been hurt by covid shots...
Some of those companies have even been forbidden now they found out they made dangerous crap.

Of course I will die too... WW3 .. airbase here makes a good target, or just from boredummies
Hide under the table ;-)
My elementary particles will then become part of you all.
People are mostly water .. so evaporation, rain, there you go, better get an umbrella!
Deep state....
LOL

On 2023-06-23 11:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Jun 2023 16:01:33 +0100) it happened Martin Brown
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <u74c4l$3ojiv$1@dont-email.me>:
>
>> On 23/06/2023 14:54, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 08:19:34 +0100, Martin Brown
>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 23/06/2023 05:01, bud-- wrote:
>>>>> On 6/22/2023 4:50 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>>> The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing.
>>>>>> A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a
>>>>>> desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make
>>>>>> noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it's gone
>>>>>> in a flash.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone who know anything about submersibles share that opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Navy (?) reports buoys hearing a sound consistent with implosion a
>>>>> little after communication was lost. Implosion should not be surprising
>>>>
>>>> Implosion is more or less guaranteed once hull integrity is breached.
>>>>
>>>> What is less clear is why did the vessel actually fail so quickly that
>>>> the crew had no chance to raise the alarm.
>>>
>>> If the hull buckled, they were probably crushed in milliseconds.
>>
>> However, reports seem to suggest comms loss preceded the implosion that
>> the navy listening devices heard by minutes or hours.
>>
>> I agree that once the thing starts to crumple the acceleration of the
>> implosion will be very fast and extremely energetic. Much like a classic
>> filament light bulb when you pop the glass envelope.
>
> I once had a shot as a kid at an old TV CRT, had put it behind the garden shed for safety
> Very few debris found, the pieces must have flown far away...

When I was a kid, I used to take apart dead TVs for parts. I got rid of
the picture tubes by stuffing them in a Rubbermaid garbage can and
shooting them with a slingshot from 40 yards or so. Good fun.

>
> Later, where I worked in the studio, a colleague heard a cracking noise coming from a CRT monitor
> he decided that was a good moment to leave and get a cup of coffee.
> When he came back the glass pieces were sticking in the thick metal sound proof studio door.
> Not sure what happens underwater, but the implosion will likely be followed
> by pieces flying all over the place in such a case too.
>

Except at 400 atmospheres instead of 1. :(

May God hold them in memory eternal.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

as
On 6/23/2023 12:20 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:35:38 -0400) it happened bitrex
> <user@example.net> wrote in <dZilM.36973$Vpga.24135@fx09.iad>:
>
>> On 6/23/2023 9:52 AM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 03:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>>> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 11:38:22?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>>>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not
>>>>>> unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in
>>>>>> 6000 psi water, it's gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> " The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing."- may not
>>>>>> apply to the Titan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m]."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests.
>>>>>> Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed
>>>>>> acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two
>>>>>> processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible's auxiliary device and will give the driver
>>>>>> real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles."- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic
>>>>>> sensor system and was fired.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world's largest
>>>>>> submersible of the same type. "
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_incident
>>>>>
>>>>> "In a 2022 dive to the Titanic, one of the thrusters on the Titan was
>>>>> accidentally installed backwards and the submersible started spinning
>>>>> in circles when trying to move forward near the sea floor. As
>>>>> documented by the BBC documentary Take Me to Titanic, the issue was
>>>>> bypassed by steering while holding the game controller sideways."
>>>>
>>>> The whole thing sounds more and more like a mentor-less undergraduate engineering group project where nobody knows what
>>>> they're doing.
>>>
>>> And the leader, the lost Stockton Rush, was a thrill seeker. He was
>>> also very impatient. For some people, dancing at the edge of death is
>>> a sport.
>>
>> Sadly, some significant number of these deaths were guilty of no crime
>> other than being relatively gullible and susceptible to right-wing
>> propaganda:
>>
>> <https://healthfeedback.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/united-states-rates-of-covid-19-deaths-by-vaccination-status-1-1024x723.pn
>
> well I did not get any anti-covid shots
> Never had a cold

Where were you going so often around other people prior and during
Covid, anyway? IIRC you're retired and judging by your software-related
posts you don't get out much in the first place.

That's not implying any aspersions on the quality of your work, but I'm
just sayin'.

> But many many died from heart failure and had brain damage from blood cloth that were guided by the Pharmaceutical Industrial Complex shots commercials.
> Of course I died too, went to 'effen, and was not allowed in because I did not have the 4 (I think it was) shots,
> so went to that place down below, but the boss there did not want any competition.
> So I jam here.,
> You are a puppet on a string

If you're looking for entirely ethical fashions of consumption under
global neoliberal capitalism you'll be hard-pressed to find one. Just
about every industry has an "Industrial Complex" and a PR division
trying it's damnedest to move product and bring maximum value to its
shareholders above all else, what else is new.

> millions have been hurt by covid shots...
> Some of those companies have even been forbidden now they found out they made dangerous crap.
> Of course I will die too... WW3 .. airbase here makes a good target, or just from boredummies
> Hide under the table ;-)

Incidentally, at the start of the Eisenhower administration there were
about 200 nuclear weapons in the US arsenal, as compared to 10,000+ at
the end of his two terms.

Despite crowing about the hazards of the "military industrial complex"
in his farewell address, there's little evidence he did much of
substance to oppose it during his tenure. It's definitely killed a
millions since then, maybe about ten times as many as Covid killed and
hundred thousand times as many as vaccines did. But opposition to it in
the US tends to be spotty at best, maybe once it consumes 90% of the
budget something will change..

> My elementary particles will then become part of you all.
> People are mostly water .. so evaporation, rain, there you go, better get an umbrella!
> Deep state....
> LOL

Yes, you are a strange person.

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:40:24 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 00:21:10 -0700 (PDT), John Walliker
> <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 05:52:46 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
> >> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:27:25?PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >> > On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 7:55:54?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> >> > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> >> > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > >The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it's gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing."- may not apply to the Titan.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m]."
> >> > > >
> >> > > >"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible's auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles."- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.
> >> > > "Future manned submersibles" from these idiots sounds unlikely. They
> >> > > should have tested it to 8000 meters.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world's largest submersible of the same type. "
> >> > > Was.
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/
> >> > > >
> >> > > >https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html
> >> > >
> >> > > I'd expect that carbon fiber is strong in tension, which is what a
> >> > > pressurized airplane or a hydrogen tank needs. But in compression? You
> >> > > seem the same effect in wood, stronger in tension than compression
> >> > > because it can buckle.
> >> > And how does fiber in tension resist a force perpendicular to its surface. Reports say it's 5 inches thick.
> >> That's just basic statics. Read a sophomore text book on the topic. They should have a good example of analyzing an I-beam. > Same concept.
> >
> >Perhaps closer to the real situation there is plenty of analysis of Euler instability
> >in cylindrical structures. For example:
> >https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/41167884.pdf
> >
> >John
> That's loading on a long solid cylinder. The more likely failure mode
> of the sub was radial collapse of a long, relatively thin-wall hollow
> cylinder from external pressure.
>
> We just had a deck rebuilt. One side is tied to a header on the house
> and the two outside corners are supported by long 4x4 wood posts. The
> failure mode of the posts would be buckling, so I researched that.

How high up in the air is that thing that you should be concerned with "buckling"??? A 4 ft 4x4 spf is good for over 14,000 lbs compression. That drops to less than 4,000 lbs for a 10 ft length. The 10 ft post as a structural element just looks funny. There's a document called the National Design Specification that shows how to make things like composite structures such as using 4x4 to make an 8x8 column, in a structurally sound way. Wood is an imperfect material, so moments develop internally to create bending, warping and failing.

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:43:19 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:40:24?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 00:21:10 -0700 (PDT), John Walliker
>> <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 05:52:46 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:27:25?PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>> >> > On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 7:55:54?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> >> > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> >> > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it's gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing."- may not apply to the Titan.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m]."
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible's auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles."- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.
>> >> > > "Future manned submersibles" from these idiots sounds unlikely. They
>> >> > > should have tested it to 8000 meters.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world's largest submersible of the same type. "
>> >> > > Was.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I'd expect that carbon fiber is strong in tension, which is what a
>> >> > > pressurized airplane or a hydrogen tank needs. But in compression? You
>> >> > > seem the same effect in wood, stronger in tension than compression
>> >> > > because it can buckle.
>> >> > And how does fiber in tension resist a force perpendicular to its surface. Reports say it's 5 inches thick.
>> >> That's just basic statics. Read a sophomore text book on the topic. They should have a good example of analyzing an I-beam. > Same concept.
>> >
>> >Perhaps closer to the real situation there is plenty of analysis of Euler instability
>> >in cylindrical structures. For example:
>> >https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/41167884.pdf
>> >
>> >John
>> That's loading on a long solid cylinder. The more likely failure mode
>> of the sub was radial collapse of a long, relatively thin-wall hollow
>> cylinder from external pressure.
>>
>> We just had a deck rebuilt. One side is tied to a header on the house
>> and the two outside corners are supported by long 4x4 wood posts. The
>> failure mode of the posts would be buckling, so I researched that.
>
>How high up in the air is that thing that you should be concerned with "buckling"??? A 4 ft 4x4 spf is good for over 14,000 lbs compression. That drops to less than 4,000 lbs for a 10 ft length. The 10 ft post as a structural element just looks funny. There's a document called the National Design Specification that shows how to make things like composite structures such as using 4x4 to make an 8x8 column, in a structurally sound way. Wood is an imperfect material, so moments develop internally to create bending, warping and failing.

The deck might weigh 1000 lbs (1100 with my skinny wife) and each post
gets about 1/4 of that.

The 4x4s are about 12 feet long, but they pass through a lower deck,
which should supress buckling. The span between decks is 7 feet.
Should be fine.

There's a giant steel bracket at each top end, which will resist
twisting forces associated with buckling, even better.

The real hazard with decks is rot, and these are pressure-treated, not
sitting in dirt or anything.

There are houses around here, on steep hillsides, that are supported
by insanely long skinny posts on the downhill side. It's terrifying in
earthquake country. I'll take some pics next hike in the canyon.

Most of the deaths in our 1989 earthquake were the upper-deck
collapsed freeway in Oakland. It had won architectural awards for the
delicacy of the concrete supports.

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 3:17:30 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:43:19 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:40:24?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 00:21:10 -0700 (PDT), John Walliker
> >> <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 05:52:46 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
> >> >> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:27:25?PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >> >> > On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 7:55:54?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> >> >> > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> >> >> > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > >The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it's gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing."- may not apply to the Titan.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m]."
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible's auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles."- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.
> >> >> > > "Future manned submersibles" from these idiots sounds unlikely. They
> >> >> > > should have tested it to 8000 meters.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world's largest submersible of the same type. "
> >> >> > > Was.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I'd expect that carbon fiber is strong in tension, which is what a
> >> >> > > pressurized airplane or a hydrogen tank needs. But in compression? You
> >> >> > > seem the same effect in wood, stronger in tension than compression
> >> >> > > because it can buckle.
> >> >> > And how does fiber in tension resist a force perpendicular to its surface. Reports say it's 5 inches thick.
> >> >> That's just basic statics. Read a sophomore text book on the topic. They should have a good example of analyzing an I-beam. > Same concept.
> >> >
> >> >Perhaps closer to the real situation there is plenty of analysis of Euler instability
> >> >in cylindrical structures. For example:
> >> >https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/41167884.pdf
> >> >
> >> >John
> >> That's loading on a long solid cylinder. The more likely failure mode
> >> of the sub was radial collapse of a long, relatively thin-wall hollow
> >> cylinder from external pressure.
> >>
> >> We just had a deck rebuilt. One side is tied to a header on the house
> >> and the two outside corners are supported by long 4x4 wood posts. The
> >> failure mode of the posts would be buckling, so I researched that.
> >
> >How high up in the air is that thing that you should be concerned with "buckling"??? A 4 ft 4x4 spf is good for over 14,000 lbs compression. That drops to less than 4,000 lbs for a 10 ft length. The 10 ft post as a structural element just looks funny. There's a document called the National Design Specification that shows how to make things like composite structures such as using 4x4 to make an 8x8 column, in a structurally sound way. Wood is an imperfect material, so moments develop internally to create bending, warping and failing.
> The deck might weigh 1000 lbs (1100 with my skinny wife) and each post
> gets about 1/4 of that.
>
> The 4x4s are about 12 feet long, but they pass through a lower deck,
> which should supress buckling. The span between decks is 7 feet.
> Should be fine.
>
> There's a giant steel bracket at each top end, which will resist
> twisting forces associated with buckling, even better.
>
> The real hazard with decks is rot, and these are pressure-treated, not
> sitting in dirt or anything.
>
> There are houses around here, on steep hillsides, that are supported
> by insanely long skinny posts on the downhill side. It's terrifying in
> earthquake country. I'll take some pics next hike in the canyon.
>
> Most of the deaths in our 1989 earthquake were the upper-deck
> collapsed freeway in Oakland. It had won architectural awards for the
> delicacy of the concrete supports.

Those 4x4's aren't even going to know they're loaded.

If it's a permitted job by a licensed contractor then it's totally code compliant and shouldn't be a problem.

That doesn't mean it will be pretty. Several thousand years ago the Greeks discovered an optical illusion when viewing their columns from a distance. And that is the center appears skinny relative to the ends. They overcame this by fattening them up in the middle, and the technique has been used ever since.

On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 21:51:16 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:37:27?AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> <3ebd5497-c5a7-429f...@googlegroups.com>:
>>
>> >The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A sp=
>> >ontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and=
>> > panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you sta=
>> >rt a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it's gone in a flash. Going to b=
>> >e impossible to conduct a forensics.
>> >
>> >" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center i=
>> >n Alabama on development and manufacturing."- may not apply to the Titan.
>> >
>> >"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vesse=
>> >l could not be certified for that depth [4,000m]."
>> >
>> >"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conduc=
>> >ted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible t=
>> >o 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement senso=
>> >r and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the h=
>> >ull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the tw=
>> >o processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the subm=
>> >ersible's auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on t=
>> >he hull behavior of all future manned submersibles."- Chief engineer had a =
>> >problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.
>> >
>> >"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fib=
>> >er and titanium alloy and is the world's largest submersible of the same ty=
>> >pe. "
>> >
>> >https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-t=
>> >itanic-worthy-submersibles/
>> >
>> >https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submer=
>> >sible-16233802.html
>>
>> Carbon fiber in boats has a previous history of disaster:
>> https://no-frills-sailing.com/carbon-fibers-simply-dont-like-slamming/
>>
>> 5 people 'that must sit quiet' ?? No way fighting for a window view !
>> 'No communication' Using a long thin glassfiber cannot be that difficult, video + audio??
>> Hope they have a video-audio recorder that shows what happens,
>> That kid in the passenger list looked a bit weird to me, maybe started jumping or something.
>>
>> Seems all sort of corners were cut regarding safety.
>> WTF do people take a chance like that and even pay for it?
>>
>> OK, I would fly to Mars if the tickets were 5 $ and many went before me and they had good restaurants there.
>
>How good? Do they have to have Michelin stars?
>
>
>> But there had to be something useful there for me to even consider going.
>> But just to join the Titanics corpses?
>> Same for Himalaya climbers fallin and skiing, breaking legs.
>
>Yeah, some people just don't get it.

Too cold on Mars.

I'd rather be warm and cozy.

boB

On 2023-06-23 15:17, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:43:19 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>
<snip>
>>> That's loading on a long solid cylinder. The more likely failure
>>> mode of the sub was radial collapse of a long, relatively
>>> thin-wall hollow cylinder from external pressure.
>>>
>>> We just had a deck rebuilt. One side is tied to a header on the
>>> house and the two outside corners are supported by long 4x4 wood
>>> posts. The failure mode of the posts would be buckling, so I
>>> researched that.
>>
>> How high up in the air is that thing that you should be concerned
>> with "buckling"??? A 4 ft 4x4 spf is good for over 14,000 lbs
>> compression. That drops to less than 4,000 lbs for a 10 ft length.
>> The 10 ft post as a structural element just looks funny. There's a
>> document called the National Design Specification that shows how
>> to make things like composite structures such as using 4x4 to make
>> an 8x8 column, in a structurally sound way. Wood is an imperfect
>> material, so moments develop internally to create bending, warping
>> and failing.
>
> The deck might weigh 1000 lbs (1100 with my skinny wife) and each
> post gets about 1/4 of that.
>
> The 4x4s are about 12 feet long, but they pass through a lower deck,
> which should supress buckling. The span between decks is 7 feet.
> Should be fine.
>
> There's a giant steel bracket at each top end, which will resist
> twisting forces associated with buckling, even better.
>
> The real hazard with decks is rot, and these are pressure-treated,
> not sitting in dirt or anything.
>

Specifically rotting of the house's floor joists where the deck
attaches. Every now and again there's a story about a college spring
break party that goes tragically wrong, on account of a bunch of kids
overloading a balcony with concealed rot in the joists. You'd think
folks would learn. :(

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On 2023-06-22, Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
> The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were
>doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is
>a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to
>make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it's
>gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.

The question then becomes, or pehaps always was: why couldn't they
release the weights.

--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 6:00:52 PM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2023-06-22, Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were
> >doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is
> >a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to
> >make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it's
> >gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.
>
> The question then becomes, or pehaps always was: why couldn't they
> release the weights.

One report says the tethers dissolve and release the weights at about 24 hours of submersion. That's not going to help them if they're snagged on something.

Here's from a rescue company:

https://www.drass.tech/2023/06/20/the-titan-submersible-free-diving-at-depth-over-the-titanic-wreck-a-calculated-risk/

>
> --
> Jasen.
> 🇺🇦 Слава Україні

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 17:11:19 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 2023-06-23 15:17, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:43:19 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
><snip>
>>>> That's loading on a long solid cylinder. The more likely failure
>>>> mode of the sub was radial collapse of a long, relatively
>>>> thin-wall hollow cylinder from external pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We just had a deck rebuilt. One side is tied to a header on the
>>>> house and the two outside corners are supported by long 4x4 wood
>>>> posts. The failure mode of the posts would be buckling, so I
>>>> researched that.
>>>
>>> How high up in the air is that thing that you should be concerned
>>> with "buckling"??? A 4 ft 4x4 spf is good for over 14,000 lbs
>>> compression. That drops to less than 4,000 lbs for a 10 ft length.
>>> The 10 ft post as a structural element just looks funny. There's a
>>> document called the National Design Specification that shows how
>>> to make things like composite structures such as using 4x4 to make
>>> an 8x8 column, in a structurally sound way. Wood is an imperfect
>>> material, so moments develop internally to create bending, warping
>>> and failing.
>>
>> The deck might weigh 1000 lbs (1100 with my skinny wife) and each
>> post gets about 1/4 of that.
>>
>> The 4x4s are about 12 feet long, but they pass through a lower deck,
>> which should supress buckling. The span between decks is 7 feet.
>> Should be fine.
>>
>> There's a giant steel bracket at each top end, which will resist
>> twisting forces associated with buckling, even better.
>>
>> The real hazard with decks is rot, and these are pressure-treated,
>> not sitting in dirt or anything.
>>
>
>Specifically rotting of the house's floor joists where the deck
>attaches. Every now and again there's a story about a college spring
>break party that goes tragically wrong, on account of a bunch of kids
>overloading a balcony with concealed rot in the joists. You'd think
>folks would learn. :(
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

Yes, the deck was cantelevered on non-PT joists going into the kitchen
floor, and they were rotten at the house. My contractor cut them off
flush and bolted a huge header onto the house, and hung the deck
joists on brackets.

The alternate was to tear up the hardwood kitchen floor and do new
joists, too much hassle.

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 13:31:45 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 3:17:30?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:43:19 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:40:24?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 00:21:10 -0700 (PDT), John Walliker
>> >> <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 05:52:46 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
>> >> >> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:27:25?PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>> >> >> > On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 7:55:54?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> >> >> > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> >> >> > > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > >The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is not unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture submerged in 6000 psi water, it's gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > >" The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing."- may not apply to the Titan.
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > >"But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m]."
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > >"As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests. Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom designed acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between the two processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible's auxiliary device and will give the driver real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles."- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called acoustic sensor system and was fired.
>> >> >> > > "Future manned submersibles" from these idiots sounds unlikely. They
>> >> >> > > should have tested it to 8000 meters.
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > >"Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world's largest submersible of the same type. "
>> >> >> > > Was.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > >https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > >https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > I'd expect that carbon fiber is strong in tension, which is what a
>> >> >> > > pressurized airplane or a hydrogen tank needs. But in compression? You
>> >> >> > > seem the same effect in wood, stronger in tension than compression
>> >> >> > > because it can buckle.
>> >> >> > And how does fiber in tension resist a force perpendicular to its surface. Reports say it's 5 inches thick.
>> >> >> That's just basic statics. Read a sophomore text book on the topic. They should have a good example of analyzing an I-beam. > Same concept.
>> >> >
>> >> >Perhaps closer to the real situation there is plenty of analysis of Euler instability
>> >> >in cylindrical structures. For example:
>> >> >https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/41167884.pdf
>> >> >
>> >> >John
>> >> That's loading on a long solid cylinder. The more likely failure mode
>> >> of the sub was radial collapse of a long, relatively thin-wall hollow
>> >> cylinder from external pressure.
>> >>
>> >> We just had a deck rebuilt. One side is tied to a header on the house
>> >> and the two outside corners are supported by long 4x4 wood posts. The
>> >> failure mode of the posts would be buckling, so I researched that.
>> >
>> >How high up in the air is that thing that you should be concerned with "buckling"??? A 4 ft 4x4 spf is good for over 14,000 lbs compression. That drops to less than 4,000 lbs for a 10 ft length. The 10 ft post as a structural element just looks funny. There's a document called the National Design Specification that shows how to make things like composite structures such as using 4x4 to make an 8x8 column, in a structurally sound way. Wood is an imperfect material, so moments develop internally to create bending, warping and failing.
>> The deck might weigh 1000 lbs (1100 with my skinny wife) and each post
>> gets about 1/4 of that.
>>
>> The 4x4s are about 12 feet long, but they pass through a lower deck,
>> which should supress buckling. The span between decks is 7 feet.
>> Should be fine.
>>
>> There's a giant steel bracket at each top end, which will resist
>> twisting forces associated with buckling, even better.
>>
>> The real hazard with decks is rot, and these are pressure-treated, not
>> sitting in dirt or anything.
>>
>> There are houses around here, on steep hillsides, that are supported
>> by insanely long skinny posts on the downhill side. It's terrifying in
>> earthquake country. I'll take some pics next hike in the canyon.
>>
>> Most of the deaths in our 1989 earthquake were the upper-deck
>> collapsed freeway in Oakland. It had won architectural awards for the
>> delicacy of the concrete supports.
>
>Those 4x4's aren't even going to know they're loaded.
>
>If it's a permitted job by a licensed contractor then it's totally code compliant and shouldn't be a problem.
>
>That doesn't mean it will be pretty. Several thousand years ago the Greeks discovered an optical illusion when viewing their columns from a distance. And that is the center appears skinny relative to the ends. They overcame this by fattening them up in the middle, and the technique has been used ever since.

Here's a few pic from my hike.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rh900ikkos51hnp/AAC4katl4FbYi7l76MYmXBTUa?dl=0

What's scary is that a lot of these hillsides slid, and trees tumbled
down, in our recent rains.

Our house is on a pretty steep hill, but it's dug into the rock, not
on skinny stilts.

On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Jun 2023 14:16:28 -0400) it happened bitrex
<user@example.net> wrote in <%jllM.6309$I68a.1413@fx43.iad>:

>as
>On 6/23/2023 12:20 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:35:38 -0400) it happened bitrex
>> <user@example.net> wrote in <dZilM.36973$Vpga.24135@fx09.iad>:
>>
>>> On 6/23/2023 9:52 AM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 03:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>>>> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 11:38:22?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>>>>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> The people who designed and tested the hull knew what they were doing. A spontaneous implosion seems unlikely. What is
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> unlikely is a desperate and panicked crew banging something against the hull to make noise. If you start a fracture
>>>>>>> submerged in
>>>>>>> 6000 psi water, it's gone in a flash. Going to be impossible to conduct a forensics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> " The company is working with NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama on development and manufacturing."- may
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> apply to the Titan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "But last year [2019], tests determined that Titan’s pressure vessel could not be certified for that depth [4,000m]."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "As part of the Titan underwater testing program, the OceanGate team conducted a series of driverless diving tests.
>>>>>>> Gradually reduce the submersible to 4000 meters while using another strain gauge, viewport displacement sensor and custom
>>>>>>> designed
>>>>>>> acoustic sensor system to measure the health of the hull, providing analysis data during the submersible dive and between
>>>>>>> the two
>>>>>>> processes. . Many of these sensors will be permanently stored in the submersible's auxiliary device and will give the
>>>>>>> driver
>>>>>>> real-time feedback on the hull behavior of all future manned submersibles."- Chief engineer had a problem with so-called
>>>>>>> acoustic
>>>>>>> sensor system and was fired.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Designed and manufactured by OceanGate, the Titan is made up of carbon fiber and titanium alloy and is the world's
>>>>>>> largest
>>>>>>> submersible of the same type. "
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.geekwire.com/2020/oceangate-picks-toray-cma-make-carbon-fiber-titanic-worthy-submersibles/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.lfrt-plastic.com/news/carbon-fiber-assists-the-us-manned-submersible-16233802.html
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_incident
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "In a 2022 dive to the Titanic, one of the thrusters on the Titan was
>>>>>> accidentally installed backwards and the submersible started spinning
>>>>>> in circles when trying to move forward near the sea floor. As
>>>>>> documented by the BBC documentary Take Me to Titanic, the issue was
>>>>>> bypassed by steering while holding the game controller sideways."
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole thing sounds more and more like a mentor-less undergraduate engineering group project where nobody knows what
>>>>> they're doing.
>>>>
>>>> And the leader, the lost Stockton Rush, was a thrill seeker. He was
>>>> also very impatient. For some people, dancing at the edge of death is
>>>> a sport.
>>>
>>> Sadly, some significant number of these deaths were guilty of no crime
>>> other than being relatively gullible and susceptible to right-wing
>>> propaganda:
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://healthfeedback.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/united-states-rates-of-covid-19-deaths-by-vaccination-status-1-1024x723.pn
>>
>> well I did not get any anti-covid shots
>> Never had a cold
>
>Where were you going so often around other people prior and during
>Covid, anyway? IIRC you're retired and judging by your software-related
>posts you don't get out much in the first place.
>
>That's not implying any aspersions on the quality of your work, but I'm
>just sayin'.
>
>> But many many died from heart failure and had brain damage from blood cloth that were guided by the Pharmaceutical Industrial
>> Complex shots commercials.
>> Of course I died too, went to 'effen, and was not allowed in because I did not have the 4 (I think it was) shots,
>> so went to that place down below, but the boss there did not want any competition.
>> So I jam here.,
>> You are a puppet on a string
>
>If you're looking for entirely ethical fashions of consumption under
>global neoliberal capitalism you'll be hard-pressed to find one. Just
>about every industry has an "Industrial Complex" and a PR division
>trying it's damnedest to move product and bring maximum value to its
>shareholders above all else, what else is new.
>
>> millions have been hurt by covid shots...
>> Some of those companies have even been forbidden now they found out they made dangerous crap.
>> Of course I will die too... WW3 .. airbase here makes a good target, or just from boredummies
>> Hide under the table ;-)
>
>Incidentally, at the start of the Eisenhower administration there were
>about 200 nuclear weapons in the US arsenal, as compared to 10,000+ at
>the end of his two terms.
>
>Despite crowing about the hazards of the "military industrial complex"
>in his farewell address, there's little evidence he did much of
>substance to oppose it during his tenure. It's definitely killed a
>millions since then, maybe about ten times as many as Covid killed and
>hundred thousand times as many as vaccines did. But opposition to it in
>the US tends to be spotty at best, maybe once it consumes 90% of the
>budget something will change..
>
>> My elementary particles will then become part of you all.
>> People are mostly water .. so evaporation, rain, there you go, better get an umbrella!
>> Deep state....
>> LOL
>
>Yes, you are a strange person.

Yes, different from you earthlings,
I've read you earthlings are delivered by Storks
I would have remembered that, and am too heavy for that anyways.
NASA has spotted flying cup and saucers .. a more likely way ..
As to the Pharmaceutical Industrial Complex: Fauci created covid
and that then set in motion the big gov funded sales.
Yes, Eisenhower sort of supported the Military complex as it created jobs that ended the great depression.
Would be better to create and repair infrastructure and pay the workers with dollars you print.
Nixon decoupled the US dollar from gold.. inflation, gold price over past 20 years alone rose 450 percent...
https://goldprice.org/live-gold-price.html

Anyways, something is seriously wrong with US, I was reading this just now:
https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/06/the-mars-sample-return-mission-is-starting-to-give-nasa-sticker-shock/

One can do it for less I am sure.

Oh been around many people and had all sort of people working around the house, some used mouth caps, some obviously had
severe cold symptoms.
But I personally do not know anybody here who died of covid.
Now this part of the country scores a lot better than the big cities, has cleaner air next to the sea...
But how much fear mongering is part of the sales force song?

Most have acquired natural immunity.
Last time I was sick was after I drank a dirty cup of coffee on Central Station in Amsterdam in the eighties,
had to throw up all day long, skip a day at work, next day OK again, in the eighties...
And I got a tick byte and used antibiotics a few years back against a red spot on my arm.
That is it...
Been all over the world, in all sort of circumstances, in the wild too.
Probably know 'merrica better than many hillbillies.
hehe
well it was fun.
Survival skills and experience may come in handy when it rains nukes and society as we know it ceases to exist.
Everybody and their cat has nukes these days.