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tech / sci.electronics.design / Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science literacy

Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science literacy

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Subject: Occam’s_razor:_the_forgotten_key_to_science_litera
cy
From: bloggs.f...@gmail.com (Fred Bloggs)
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by: Fred Bloggs - Tue, 18 Jul 2023 14:52 UTC

Re: Occam?s razor: the forgotten key to science literacy

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From: jlar...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com (John Larkin)
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Subject: Re: Occam???s razor: the forgotten key to science literacy
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by: John Larkin - Tue, 18 Jul 2023 16:27 UTC

On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>Didn't even give mention to the 'universe is a simulation' from the C-grade economics undergrad...
>
>https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/occams-razor-science-literacy/

Some things in nature are extraordinarily complex, and Occams Razor
can lead to explanations that are very wrong. Occam was lazy.

Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science literacy

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Subject: Re:_Occam’s_razor:_the_forgotten_key_to_science_li
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From: bloggs.f...@gmail.com (Fred Bloggs)
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by: Fred Bloggs - Tue, 18 Jul 2023 16:29 UTC

On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 12:27:39 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Didn't even give mention to the 'universe is a simulation' from the C-grade economics undergrad...
> >
> >https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/occams-razor-science-literacy/
> Some things in nature are extraordinarily complex, and Occams Razor
> can lead to explanations that are very wrong. Occam was lazy.

LOL- like Newton was lazy too...

Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science literacy

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by: Michael Terrell - Tue, 18 Jul 2023 16:51 UTC

Didn't he have a long beard, as well? :)

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by: whit3rd - Tue, 18 Jul 2023 17:02 UTC

On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 9:27:39 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Didn't even give mention to the 'universe is a simulation' from the C-grade economics undergrad...
> >
> >https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/occams-razor-science-literacy/
> Some things in nature are extraordinarily complex, and Occams Razor
> can lead to explanations that are very wrong. Occam was lazy.

But, we don't just use the razor; we ask for consistency with observation. Detailed
observations in nature are all it takes to complicate an explanation, and no
principle of Occam makes such complications vanish.

Occam's razor, recently, makes the lab-leak hypothesis for COVID19 untenable.

Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science literacy

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From: dp...@tgi-sci.com (Dimiter_Popoff)
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Subject: Re:_Occam’s_razor:_the_forgotten_key_to_scien
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by: Dimiter_Popoff - Tue, 18 Jul 2023 18:02 UTC

On 7/18/2023 19:27, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Didn't even give mention to the 'universe is a simulation' from the C-grade economics undergrad...
>>
>> https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/occams-razor-science-literacy/
>
> Some things in nature are extraordinarily complex, and Occams Razor
> can lead to explanations that are very wrong. Occam was lazy.
>

Hmmm. If a complex question cannot be split into a finite number
of questions answerable in a single bit each, we just cannot answer
the question.
But if it can, may be Occam's razor is applicable to each single
bit question. Or not, I don't think this is an easy one.
Him being lazy or not has little to do with his razor anyway...

Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science literacy

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Subject: Re:_Occam’s_razor:_the_forgotten_key_to_science_li
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by: John Walliker - Tue, 18 Jul 2023 18:56 UTC

On Tuesday, 18 July 2023 at 19:02:21 UTC+1, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> On 7/18/2023 19:27, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Didn't even give mention to the 'universe is a simulation' from the C-grade economics undergrad...
> >>
> >> https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/occams-razor-science-literacy/
> >
> > Some things in nature are extraordinarily complex, and Occams Razor
> > can lead to explanations that are very wrong. Occam was lazy.
> >
> Hmmm. If a complex question cannot be split into a finite number
> of questions answerable in a single bit each, we just cannot answer
> the question.
> But if it can, may be Occam's razor is applicable to each single
> bit question. Or not, I don't think this is an easy one.
> Him being lazy or not has little to do with his razor anyway...

This is where he was (probably) born:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ockham,_Surrey
John

Re: Occam?s razor: the forgotten key to science literacy

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by: John Larkin - Tue, 18 Jul 2023 19:34 UTC

On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 11:56:57 -0700 (PDT), John Walliker
<jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, 18 July 2023 at 19:02:21 UTC+1, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>> On 7/18/2023 19:27, John Larkin wrote:
>> > On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Didn't even give mention to the 'universe is a simulation' from the C-grade economics undergrad...
>> >>
>> >> https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/occams-razor-science-literacy/
>> >
>> > Some things in nature are extraordinarily complex, and Occams Razor
>> > can lead to explanations that are very wrong. Occam was lazy.
>> >
>> Hmmm. If a complex question cannot be split into a finite number
>> of questions answerable in a single bit each, we just cannot answer
>> the question.
>> But if it can, may be Occam's razor is applicable to each single
>> bit question. Or not, I don't think this is an easy one.
>> Him being lazy or not has little to do with his razor anyway...
>
>This is where he was (probably) born:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ockham,_Surrey
>John

I can think of a great name for the barber shop.

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by: Don Y - Tue, 18 Jul 2023 23:37 UTC

On 7/18/2023 10:02 AM, whit3rd wrote:
> But, we don't just use the razor; we ask for consistency with observation. Detailed
> observations in nature are all it takes to complicate an explanation, and no
> principle of Occam makes such complications vanish.
>
> Occam's razor, recently, makes the lab-leak hypothesis for COVID19 untenable.

Occam says to minimize those things that your explanation requires
to be ASSUMPTIONS. It doesn't require all explanations to be *simple*.
If you look at the "machinery" of photosynthesis, it's far from "simple".
But, there are no "insert something magical, here" boxes in the process!

I.e., a Rube Goldberg mechanism has definable steps between input
and action -- none are "black boxes" that one has to take on faith
or postpone until the technology/understanding improves.

Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science literacy

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From: blockedo...@foo.invalid (Don Y)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re:_Occam’s_razor:_the_forgotten_key_to_scien
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by: Don Y - Tue, 18 Jul 2023 23:39 UTC

On 7/18/2023 4:37 PM, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/18/2023 10:02 AM, whit3rd wrote:
>> But, we don't just use the razor; we ask for consistency with observation.
>> Detailed
>> observations in nature are all it takes to complicate an explanation, and no
>> principle of Occam makes such complications vanish.
>>
>> Occam's razor, recently, makes the lab-leak hypothesis for COVID19 untenable.
>
> Occam says to minimize those things that your explanation requires
> to be ASSUMPTIONS. It doesn't require all explanations to be *simple*.
> If you look at the "machinery" of photosynthesis, it's far from "simple".
> But, there are no "insert something magical, here" boxes in the process!
>
> I.e., a Rube Goldberg mechanism has definable steps between input
> and action -- none are "black boxes" that one has to take on faith
> or postpone until the technology/understanding improves.

E.g., life on earth is the result of aliens seeding the planet
(or, some imaginary "gawd") is a much simpler explanation than
an evolutionary process that factored random events into our
biochemistry.

But, the "external actor" requires an assumption that can't be proven.

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re:_Occam’s_razor:_the_forgotten_key_to_scien
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by: Sylvia Else - Wed, 19 Jul 2023 03:26 UTC

On 19-July-23 12:52 am, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> Didn't even give mention to the 'universe is a simulation' from the C-grade economics undergrad...
>
> https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/occams-razor-science-literacy/

Occam's razor is about avoiding needless complication in an explanation.
The operative word here is "needless". Occam doesn't say that the
simplest explanation is the correct one even if it is not actually an
explanation.

Sylvia.

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From: bloggs.f...@gmail.com (Fred Bloggs)
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by: Fred Bloggs - Thu, 20 Jul 2023 16:32 UTC

On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 1:02:27 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 9:27:39 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Didn't even give mention to the 'universe is a simulation' from the C-grade economics undergrad...
> > >
> > >https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/occams-razor-science-literacy/
> > Some things in nature are extraordinarily complex, and Occams Razor
> > can lead to explanations that are very wrong. Occam was lazy.
> But, we don't just use the razor; we ask for consistency with observation.. Detailed
> observations in nature are all it takes to complicate an explanation, and no
> principle of Occam makes such complications vanish.
>
> Occam's razor, recently, makes the lab-leak hypothesis for COVID19 untenable.

Occam's heartburn was with making needless assumptions. He doesn't diss complexity.

Subject	Author
Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science litera	Fred Bloggs
Re: Occam?s razor: the forgotten key to science literacy	John Larkin
Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science li	Fred Bloggs
Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science li	Michael Terrell
Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science li	whit3rd
Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to scien	Don Y
Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to scien	Don Y
Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science li	Fred Bloggs
Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to scien	Dimiter_Popoff
Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to science li	John Walliker
Re: Occam?s razor: the forgotten key to science literacy	John Larkin
Re: Occam’s razor: the forgotten key to scien	Sylvia Else