An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> --

Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?

timbre
entente
lignes

On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> > --
> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>
> timbre
> entente
> lignes

Either you know the language or you know the spelling.

There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
There is no nasal vowel in lignes.

Sun, 30 May 2021 02:24:26 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>> --
>
>Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal

Of course, why not? Depends on whether you keep the nasal cavity close
during the vowel, and open it abruptly while closing the oral passage
for the consonant (a fast switchover), or you keep the nasal cavity
open in addition to the oral one, already during the vowel.

>and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>
>timbre
>entente
>lignes

Depends on the language, and the context. Nasal in standard French
(e.g. in Caen, but not in Cannes), non-nasal in southern French. In
Portuguese too, both situations occur, depending on word structure.

The words mentioned are [tE~bR], [A~tA~t], et [liJ]. (If J is the
symbol in some Ascii-isation for a palatal nasal consonant.)
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On 2021-05-30, Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>
> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?

At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels
appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but
on second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography
indicates nasal vowels?

The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m indicates a nasal vowel,
unless another vowel letter follows.

The French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more
context than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,
you need to take more surrounding letters into account.

Much like English orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation
of Middle English, French orthography is based on the pronunciation
of Old French, with centuries of sound changes layered on top.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Le dimanche 30 mai 2021 à 17:30:08 UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber a écrit :
> On 2021-05-30, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> >> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> >
> > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels
> appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but
> on second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography
> indicates nasal vowels?
>
> The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m indicates a nasal vowel,
> unless another vowel letter follows.
>
> The French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more
> context than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,
> you need to take more surrounding letters into account.
>
> Much like English orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation
> of Middle English, French orthography is based on the pronunciation
> of Old French, with centuries of sound changes layered on top.

The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite straightforward.
The main problem is that each phoneme has several, sometimes many, graphic renditions.
The other issue is the Neoplatonician latinification, with all the mute letters.

On 2021-05-31 05:54:04 +0000, Arnaud Fournet said:

> Le dimanche 30 mai 2021 à 17:30:08 UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber a écrit :
>> On 2021-05-30, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:>> >> An
>> articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:> >>
>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm> >
>>> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and
>>> if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>> At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels>
>> appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but> on
>> second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography>
>> indicates nasal vowels?>> The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m
>> indicates a nasal vowel,> unless another vowel letter follows.>> The
>> French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more> context
>> than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,> you need
>> to take more surrounding letters into account.>> Much like English
>> orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation> of Middle English,
>> French orthography is based on the pronunciation> of Old French, with
>> centuries of sound changes layered on top.
> The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite straightforward.

In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.

> The main problem is that each phoneme has several, sometimes many,
> graphic renditions.
> The other issue is the Neoplatonician latinification, with all the mute
> letters.

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

Op 31/05/2021 om 9:47 schreef Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>> The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite
>> straightforward.
>
> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.

And stagner and bagne, immanquable and immuable, ville and fille, fils
and fils; un accueil pareil dans l'abbaye des abeilles...

Ok, still less crazy than English, admittedly.

--

guido wugi

On 2021-05-31 09:22:11 +0000, wugi said:

> Op 31/05/2021 om 9:47 schreef Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>>> The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite straightforward.
>>
>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>
>
> And stagner and bagne, immanquable and immuable, ville and fille, fils
> and fils; un accueil pareil dans l'abbaye des abeilles...
>
> Ok, still less crazy than English, admittedly.

Yes. No escaping that.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

Le lundi 31 mai 2021 à 09:47:20 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2021-05-31 05:54:04 +0000, Arnaud Fournet said:
>
> > Le dimanche 30 mai 2021 à 17:30:08 UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber a écrit :
> >> On 2021-05-30, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:>> >> An
> >> articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:> >>
> >> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm> >
> >>> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and
> >>> if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> >> At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels>
> >> appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but> on
> >> second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography>
> >> indicates nasal vowels?>> The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m
> >> indicates a nasal vowel,> unless another vowel letter follows.>> The
> >> French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more> context
> >> than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,> you need
> >> to take more surrounding letters into account.>> Much like English
> >> orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation> of Middle English,
> >> French orthography is based on the pronunciation> of Old French, with
> >> centuries of sound changes layered on top.
> > The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite straightforward.
> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.

I have no issue with poêle = [poel]...
but I agree this might not be standard.

On Monday, May 31, 2021 at 5:22:18 AM UTC-4, wugi wrote:
> Op 31/05/2021 om 9:47 schreef Athel Cornish-Bowden:

NO, HE DID NOT.

> >> The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite
> >> straightforward.
> > In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.

> And stagner and bagne, immanquable and immuable, ville and fille, fils
> and fils; un accueil pareil dans l'abbaye des abeilles...
>
> Ok, still less crazy than English, admittedly.

The "dictée" is more dreaded in French schools than the "spelling test"
in English schools, because despite what AF implied above, the French
mapping from pronunciation to spelling is very far from straightforward.

In article <72aa357f-575b-4fe6-8369-f9cf70b3ea44n@googlegroups.com>,
Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>Le lundi 31 mai 2021 à 09:47:20 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>> On 2021-05-31 05:54:04 +0000, Arnaud Fournet said:
>>
>> > Le dimanche 30 mai 2021 Ã 17:30:08 UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber a
>écrit :
>> >> On 2021-05-30, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:>> >> An
>> >> articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:> >>
>> >> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm> >
>> >>> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and
>> >>> if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>> >> At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels>
>> >> appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but> on
>> >> second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography>
>> >> indicates nasal vowels?>> The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m
>> >> indicates a nasal vowel,> unless another vowel letter follows.>> The
>> >> French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more> context
>> >> than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,> you need
>> >> to take more surrounding letters into account.>> Much like English
>> >> orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation> of Middle English,
>> >> French orthography is based on the pronunciation> of Old French, with
>> >> centuries of sound changes layered on top.
>> > The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite
>straightforward.
>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>
>I have no issue with poêle = [poel]...
>but I agree this might not be standard.

But that's a regional pronunciation; [pwal] is standard. (Or [pwa:l] in
Québec.)

Pierre

--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.

I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation

>
>> The main problem is that each phoneme has several, sometimes many,
>> graphic renditions.
>> The other issue is the Neoplatonician latinification, with all the mute
>> letters.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation

Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)

--

guido wugi

wugi <brol@wugi.be> wrote:
> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>
>
> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)

Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
fanciful). The others are a matter of conflicting spelling subsystems.

On 2021-05-31, António Marques <antonioprm@sapo.pt> wrote:

>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>
> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
> fanciful).

According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.

TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /ɲ/,
before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
are remnants.

"Poêle" looks like it arrived by a different route at the same
pronunciation /wɛ/ as the diphthong <oi> and then shared the sound
shift /wɛ/ > /wa/.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> On 2021-05-31, António Marques <antonioprm@sapo.pt> wrote:
>
>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>
>> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
>> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
>> fanciful).
>
> According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
> 1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.
>
> TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
> pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
> that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /ɲ/,
> before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
> are remnants.

Cf Montaigne.

> "Poêle" looks like it arrived by a different route at the same
> pronunciation /wɛ/ as the diphthong <oi> and then shared the sound
> shift /wɛ/ > /wa/.

So it turns out that neither is a dialectal variety.

Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <brol@wugi.be> scribeva:

>Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>
>
>Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)

No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
languages, in this case French. Because the English version of
Wiktionary is by far the most comprehensive, and nearly always
includes pronunciation, etymology, and declensions/conjugations, I
always consult that one first.

My reaction to an alternative interpretation of your comment: Yes, I
too think the English onion, including its pronunciation, is from
French. Usually Normandy French, so let's look:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/onion#Etymology
"From Middle English onyon, union, oinyon, borrowed from Anglo-Norman
union et al. and Old French oignon, from Latin [...]"

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ui#Dutch
So "ui" is wrong, "uien" should have been the singular, like ajuin.

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <brol@wugi.be> scribeva:
>
>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>
>>
>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>
> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
> languages, in this case French.

I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
'onion'.

> Because the English version of
> Wiktionary is by far the most comprehensive, and nearly always
> includes pronunciation, etymology, and declensions/conjugations, I
> always consult that one first.
>
> My reaction to an alternative interpretation of your comment: Yes, I
> too think the English onion, including its pronunciation, is from
> French. Usually Normandy French, so let's look:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/onion#Etymology
> "From Middle English onyon, union, oinyon, borrowed from Anglo-Norman
> union et al. and Old French oignon, from Latin [...]"
>
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ui#Dutch
> So "ui" is wrong, "uien" should have been the singular, like ajuin.
>

On Monday, May 31, 2021 at 5:20:23 PM UTC-7, António Marques wrote:
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> > On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> >
> >>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
> >>
> >> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
> >> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
> >> fanciful).
> >
> > According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
> > 1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon..
> >
> > TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
> > pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
> > that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /ɲ/,
> > before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
> > are remnants.

I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
it would have spelled it as <ignon>.

> Cf Montaigne.
> > "Poêle" looks like it arrived by a different route at the same
> > pronunciation /wɛ/ as the diphthong <oi> and then shared the sound
> > shift /wɛ/ > /wa/.
> So it turns out that neither is a dialectal variety.

Op 1/06/2021 om 8:47 schreef António Marques:
> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <brol@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>
>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>
>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>> languages, in this case French.
> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
> 'onion'.

You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):

I meant that le Hollandais, before the mot français oignon, would know
the anglais word onion, and "read that into" the French word.

--

guido wugi

On 2021-06-01 10:06:18 +0000, wugi said:

> Op 1/06/2021 om 8:47 schreef António Marques:
>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <brol@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>>
>>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>>> languages, in this case French.
>> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
>> 'onion'.
>
>
> You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):

Certainly not le Flamant, anyway. The English version of an explanatory
notice at the Parc Ornithologique du Pont de Gau says that the Flemings
come to the Camargue to breed. It doesn't say where the Walloons do
their breeding.
>
> I meant that le Hollandais, before the mot français oignon, would know
> the anglais word onion, and "read that into" the French word.

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

Op 1/06/2021 om 13:57 schreef Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> On 2021-06-01 10:06:18 +0000, wugi said:
>
>> Op 1/06/2021 om 8:47 schreef António Marques:
>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <brol@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>>>
>>>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>>>
>>>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>>>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>>>> languages, in this case French.
>>> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write
>>> their word
>>> 'onion'.
>>
>>
>> You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):
>
> Certainly not le Flamant, anyway. The English version of an
> explanatory notice at the Parc Ornithologique du Pont de Gau says that
> the Flemings come to the Camargue to breed. It doesn't say where the
> Walloons do their breeding.

Do they at all? ;)

We have a lot of such mistaken translations, some funny, others merely
wrong.

A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
pierre.

In a (beautiful) "cité jardin", all streets of a ward were given bird
names. One of them is Rue du Troglodyte (Wren street). Facing the
nuisance of bilingualizing into Dutch (not sure if it was by an
unknowing Fleming or a dictionarising Frenchspeaker) it was translated
to "Holbewonerstraat" (Cave dweller street), after the obvious but
unfitting first meaning of troglodyte.

--

guido wugi

wugi <brol@wugi.be> wrote:
> Op 1/06/2021 om 13:57 schreef Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>> On 2021-06-01 10:06:18 +0000, wugi said:
>>
>>> Op 1/06/2021 om 8:47 schreef António Marques:
>>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <brol@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>>>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>>>>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>>>>> languages, in this case French.
>>>> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write
>>>> their word
>>>> 'onion'.
>>>
>>>
>>> You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):
>>
>> Certainly not le Flamant, anyway. The English version of an
>> explanatory notice at the Parc Ornithologique du Pont de Gau says that
>> the Flemings come to the Camargue to breed. It doesn't say where the
>> Walloons do their breeding.
>
>
> Do they at all? ;)
>
> We have a lot of such mistaken translations, some funny, others merely
> wrong.
>
> A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
> Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
> building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
> the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
> merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
> as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
> pierre.
>
> In a (beautiful) "cité jardin", all streets of a ward were given bird
> names. One of them is Rue du Troglodyte (Wren street). Facing the
> nuisance of bilingualizing into Dutch (not sure if it was by an
> unknowing Fleming or a dictionarising Frenchspeaker) it was translated
> to "Holbewonerstraat" (Cave dweller street), after the obvious but
> unfitting first meaning of troglodyte.
>

In Galicia there are a number of streets named after a man whose surname
was La Reina. When the time came to restore native place names, a number of
those were converted into 'da raíña'*.

(*} Portuguese doesn't mark stress when it falls on a hiatus vowel before
-nh-, which is an exception, albeit a logical one - according to our
phonology there cannot be a stressed diphthong in those circumstances. But,
in a display of incoherence, we don't apply the same reasoning to -lh-, so
_faúlha_. It applies to few words anyway. The galician official standard
simply copies the rules of spanish, which relies on context much less than
portuguese, as befits their own phonology.

Tue, 1 Jun 2021 00:57:46 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Monday, May 31, 2021 at 5:20:23 PM UTC-7, António Marques wrote:
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>> > On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> >
>> >>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>> >>
>> >> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
>> >> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
>> >> fanciful).
>> >
>> > According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
>> > 1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.
>> >
>> > TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
>> > pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
>> > that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /?/,
>> > before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
>> > are remnants.
>
>I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> it would have spelled it as <ignon>.

The point is it hadn't, and couldn't have had.

Phonotactics is king.

>> Cf Montaigne.
>> > "Poêle" looks like it arrived by a different route at the same
>> > pronunciation /w?/ as the diphthong <oi> and then shared the sound
>> > shift /w?/ > /wa/.
>> So it turns out that neither is a dialectal variety.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com