Physicists achieve fusion with net energy gain for second time
https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/08/physicists-achieve-fusion-net-energy-gain-for-second-time/

Not counting mains power used for the equipment....
that is still a factor 100 or so higher.

On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 03:32:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

> Physicists achieve fusion with net energy gain for second time
> https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/08/physicists-achieve-fusion-net-
energy-gain-for-second-time/
>
> Not counting mains power used for the equipment....
> that is still a factor 100 or so higher.

Another bit of propaganda intended to deceive the public about the actual
purpose of inertial confinement fusion testing. The LLNL project has no
deliverables available to anyone not working on the development of the
next generation H-bomb, and the notion that the lasers, which need to cool
for more than an hour between shots, could somehow be made so efficient
that wall-plug break even could be obtained is laughable.

Meanwhile ITER has been an underfunded political football for so long it
has gone completely obsolete before completion. But there has been a lot
of progress in fusion energy research. Once perpetually 30 years away, it
is now perpetually only 10 years away :-). It is very likely that one of
the compact spherical toroidal reactors such as NSTU-X will achieve
continuous breakeven fusion before ITER is run for the first time. Much
smaller and cheaper reactor designed to take advantage of the ~3x stronger
magnetic field available from new high temperature (LN2) magnets.

https://www.pppl.gov/research/projects/nstx-u

NSTU-X is using water cooled copper magnets which they can run for two
minutes from the same rotary energy storage system they used for TFTR, the
predecessor to ITER. I don't know why they don't mention this storage
system anywhere, it is based on a modified 650 MVA hydroelectric generator
with a 3-phase rotor driven by a large VFD, big series-parallel array of
IGBT modules, such that the rotor field can be rotated relative to
physical position in the usual VSCF manner used in windmills and aircraft
generators. It is started with the rotor field rotating at the same speed
ad the stator field, gradually slowed and then reversed to bring the rotor
up to 150% of synchronous speed, then it is switched to generator mode and
dragged down to half synchronous speed over 2 minutes while delivering
~650 MW to the test reactor. The entire campus has only 130 MVA available
from the grid. (I got a tour of the facility from one to their power
engineers after completing a test of their 3.6 MVA backup generator, which
keeps critical cooling pumps going if utility power is lost.)

Lots of other interesting fusion research going on too. I think they are
mostly trying to keep a low profile so that the fossil fuel companies do
not feel obligated to pay politicians to cut funding like they did with
fission power. We could have had breeder reactors, which can achieve 80%
fuel utilization compared to 2% from first generation LWR reactors, but
development was shut down 50 years ago by an amazingly effective anti-nuke
campaign funded almost entirely by fossil fuel companies. Nuke is too
dangerous, let's stick with something 3 orders of magnitude more
dangerous.

On a sunny day (Tue, 08 Aug 2023 12:36:01 GMT) it happened Glen Walpert
<nospam@null.void> wrote in <REqAM.325523$U3w1.90839@fx09.iad>:

>On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 03:32:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>> Physicists achieve fusion with net energy gain for second time
>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/08/physicists-achieve-fusion-net-
>energy-gain-for-second-time/
>>
>> Not counting mains power used for the equipment....
>> that is still a factor 100 or so higher.
>
>Another bit of propaganda intended to deceive the public about the actual
>purpose of inertial confinement fusion testing. The LLNL project has no
>deliverables available to anyone not working on the development of the
>next generation H-bomb, and the notion that the lasers, which need to cool
>for more than an hour between shots, could somehow be made so efficient
>that wall-plug break even could be obtained is laughable.

Does not John Larkin supply equipment for them?

>Meanwhile ITER has been an underfunded political football for so long it
>has gone completely obsolete before completion. But there has been a lot
>of progress in fusion energy research. Once perpetually 30 years away, it
>is now perpetually only 10 years away :-). It is very likely that one of
>the compact spherical toroidal reactors such as NSTU-X will achieve
>continuous breakeven fusion before ITER is run for the first time. Much
>smaller and cheaper reactor designed to take advantage of the ~3x stronger
>magnetic field available from new high temperature (LN2) magnets.
>
>https://www.pppl.gov/research/projects/nstx-u

Interesting site
76% ready now, we will see..

>NSTU-X is using water cooled copper magnets which they can run for two
>minutes from the same rotary energy storage system they used for TFTR, the
>predecessor to ITER. I don't know why they don't mention this storage
>system anywhere, it is based on a modified 650 MVA hydroelectric generator
>with a 3-phase rotor driven by a large VFD, big series-parallel array of
>IGBT modules, such that the rotor field can be rotated relative to
>physical position in the usual VSCF manner used in windmills and aircraft
>generators. It is started with the rotor field rotating at the same speed
>ad the stator field, gradually slowed and then reversed to bring the rotor
>up to 150% of synchronous speed, then it is switched to generator mode and
>dragged down to half synchronous speed over 2 minutes while delivering
>~650 MW to the test reactor. The entire campus has only 130 MVA available
>from the grid. (I got a tour of the facility from one to their power
>engineers after completing a test of their 3.6 MVA backup generator, which
>keeps critical cooling pumps going if utility power is lost.)

My idea is: If you cannot do it on the deskop (with break even) then you cannot do it in a machine the size of the universe.

>Lots of other interesting fusion research going on too. I think they are
>mostly trying to keep a low profile so that the fossil fuel companies do
>not feel obligated to pay politicians to cut funding like they did with
>fission power. We could have had breeder reactors, which can achieve 80%
>fuel utilization compared to 2% from first generation LWR reactors, but
>development was shut down 50 years ago by an amazingly effective anti-nuke
>campaign funded almost entirely by fossil fuel companies. Nuke is too
>dangerous, let's stick with something 3 orders of magnitude more
>dangerous.

Here 2 new nuclear power plants are planned.
We really need the power, the grid is full, we need a new grid too,
especially if al cars go electric.

I liked the Farnsworth fusor, unfortunately it seems to be a factor 10^6 below break even..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusor
even kids have build one:
https://hackaday.com/2019/02/22/12-year-old-builds-successful-fusor-at-home/

ITER? I think, if it ever starts up, they will conclude they need a bigger one,
just like CERN, political project ever bigger no output.

Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 03:32:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>> Physicists achieve fusion with net energy gain for second time
>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/08/physicists-achieve-fusion-net-
>> energy-gain-for-second-time/
>>
>> Not counting mains power used for the equipment....
>> that is still a factor 100 or so higher.
>
> Another bit of propaganda intended to deceive the public about the
> actual purpose of inertial confinement fusion testing. The LLNL project
> has no deliverables available to anyone not working on the development
> of the next generation H-bomb, and the notion that the lasers, which
> need to cool for more than an hour between shots, could somehow be made
> so efficient that wall-plug break even could be obtained is laughable.
>
> Meanwhile ITER has been an underfunded political football for so long it
> has gone completely obsolete before completion. But there has been a
> lot of progress in fusion energy research. Once perpetually 30 years
> away, it is now perpetually only 10 years away :-). It is very likely
> that one of the compact spherical toroidal reactors such as NSTU-X will
> achieve continuous breakeven fusion before ITER is run for the first
> time. Much smaller and cheaper reactor designed to take advantage of
> the ~3x stronger magnetic field available from new high temperature
> (LN2) magnets.
>
> https://www.pppl.gov/research/projects/nstx-u
>
> NSTU-X is using water cooled copper magnets which they can run for two
> minutes from the same rotary energy storage system they used for TFTR,
> the predecessor to ITER. I don't know why they don't mention this
> storage system anywhere, it is based on a modified 650 MVA hydroelectric
> generator with a 3-phase rotor driven by a large VFD, big
> series-parallel array of IGBT modules, such that the rotor field can be
> rotated relative to physical position in the usual VSCF manner used in
> windmills and aircraft generators. It is started with the rotor field
> rotating at the same speed ad the stator field, gradually slowed and
> then reversed to bring the rotor up to 150% of synchronous speed, then
> it is switched to generator mode and dragged down to half synchronous
> speed over 2 minutes while delivering ~650 MW to the test reactor. The
> entire campus has only 130 MVA available from the grid. (I got a tour
> of the facility from one to their power engineers after completing a
> test of their 3.6 MVA backup generator, which keeps critical cooling
> pumps going if utility power is lost.)
>
> Lots of other interesting fusion research going on too. I think they
> are mostly trying to keep a low profile so that the fossil fuel
> companies do not feel obligated to pay politicians to cut funding like
> they did with fission power. We could have had breeder reactors, which
> can achieve 80% fuel utilization compared to 2% from first generation
> LWR reactors, but development was shut down 50 years ago by an amazingly
> effective anti-nuke campaign funded almost entirely by fossil fuel
> companies. Nuke is too dangerous, let's stick with something 3 orders
> of magnitude more dangerous.

Fusion will always remain 93 million miles away.

1. Typical problems with different approaches:

The problems with Helion Energy - a response to Real Engineering
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vUPhsFoniw

2. Solution:

Forget Fusion: We have Thorium for Unlimited Energy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqYdPhv-T30

--
MRM

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 8:09:52 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Tue, 08 Aug 2023 12:36:01 GMT) it happened Glen Walpert
> <nos...@null.void> wrote in <REqAM.325523$U3w1....@fx09.iad>:

> >NSTU-X is using water cooled copper magnets which they can run for two
> >minutes from the same rotary energy storage system they used for TFTR, the
> >predecessor to ITER.

> My idea is: If you cannot do it on the deskop (with break even) then you cannot do it in a machine the size of the universe.

Well, we can't do useful fusion power on a desktop, but Sol does it without
'the size of the universe'.

So, your "it" either isn't useful fusion, or your idea is false.

On a sunny day (Wed, 9 Aug 2023 04:28:00 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
<whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
<f24e1786-6424-47aa-9605-3fe5c6f9d864n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 8:09:52 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote=
>:
>> On a sunny day (Tue, 08 Aug 2023 12:36:01 GMT) it happened Glen Walpert=
>
>> <nos...@null.void> wrote in <REqAM.325523$U3w1....@fx09.iad>:
>
>> >NSTU-X is using water cooled copper magnets which they can run for two=
>
>> >minutes from the same rotary energy storage system they used for TFTR, t=
>he
>> >predecessor to ITER.
>
>> My idea is: If you cannot do it on the deskop (with break even) then you =
>cannot do it in a machine the size of the universe.
>
>Well, we can't do useful fusion power on a desktop, but Sol does it without
>'the size of the universe'.
>
>So, your "it" either isn't useful fusion, or your idea is false.

Oh it is, it basically says: Do a small scale experiment that has break-even.
Building ever bigger things will not help.
Look at it from the viewpoint of the particles you want to fuse.
For them very little space is needed, as for example the Farnsworth fusor shows.
Use that space.
Or do I have to spell out for you humming beans how to do it?
mm maybe your species is not ready for it.
I will maybe ask the stars again.
;-)

So, thing likely won't break even when this version is ready.
No problem, enough Uranium around and fission works,
they want those reactors too to make plutonium for bombs.
Voyager spacecraft is still transmitting using a RTG.

On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 15:09:44 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Tue, 08 Aug 2023 12:36:01 GMT) it happened Glen Walpert
><nospam@null.void> wrote in <REqAM.325523$U3w1.90839@fx09.iad>:
>
>>On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 03:32:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>
>>> Physicists achieve fusion with net energy gain for second time
>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/08/physicists-achieve-fusion-net-
>>energy-gain-for-second-time/
>>>
>>> Not counting mains power used for the equipment....
>>> that is still a factor 100 or so higher.
>>
>>Another bit of propaganda intended to deceive the public about the actual
>>purpose of inertial confinement fusion testing. The LLNL project has no
>>deliverables available to anyone not working on the development of the
>>next generation H-bomb, and the notion that the lasers, which need to cool
>>for more than an hour between shots, could somehow be made so efficient
>>that wall-plug break even could be obtained is laughable.
>
>Does not John Larkin supply equipment for them?

Yes, the master timing system and two generations of beam
modulators.

Here's a 2nd gen modulator chassis, units delivered last
year. They mount their dual-stage Mach-Zender optical
modulator inside.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjzhoths9v55gpq/Man_Front_1.jpg?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/29ttap9urihhep1/T500_Top_Final.jpg?raw=1

This gives them better modulation control (more bandwidth,
better s/n) than our older boxes. The giant aluminum block
is an oven that stabilizes the e/o modulator. The heaters
are mosfets.

On a sunny day (Wed, 09 Aug 2023 07:21:12 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
<kl77dip788k3ma1csctq54bnrtbu66vnk6@4ax.com>:

>On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 15:09:44 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Tue, 08 Aug 2023 12:36:01 GMT) it happened Glen Walpert
>><nospam@null.void> wrote in <REqAM.325523$U3w1.90839@fx09.iad>:
>>
>>>On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 03:32:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>
>>>> Physicists achieve fusion with net energy gain for second time
>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/08/physicists-achieve-fusion-net-
>>>energy-gain-for-second-time/
>>>>
>>>> Not counting mains power used for the equipment....
>>>> that is still a factor 100 or so higher.
>>>
>>>Another bit of propaganda intended to deceive the public about the actual
>>>purpose of inertial confinement fusion testing. The LLNL project has no
>>>deliverables available to anyone not working on the development of the
>>>next generation H-bomb, and the notion that the lasers, which need to cool
>>>for more than an hour between shots, could somehow be made so efficient
>>>that wall-plug break even could be obtained is laughable.
>>
>>Does not John Larkin supply equipment for them?
>
>Yes, the master timing system and two generations of beam
>modulators.
>
>Here's a 2nd gen modulator chassis, units delivered last
>year. They mount their dual-stage Mach-Zender optical
>modulator inside.
>
>https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjzhoths9v55gpq/Man_Front_1.jpg?raw=1
>
>https://www.dropbox.com/s/29ttap9urihhep1/T500_Top_Final.jpg?raw=1
>
>This gives them better modulation control (more bandwidth,
>better s/n) than our older boxes. The giant aluminum block
>is an oven that stabilizes the e/o modulator. The heaters
>are mosfets.

Nice box!
Where does it get power from, mains?
I do not see any power connector?

On Wed, 09 Aug 2023 16:00:08 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Wed, 09 Aug 2023 07:21:12 -0700) it happened John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
><kl77dip788k3ma1csctq54bnrtbu66vnk6@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 15:09:44 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>><alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 08 Aug 2023 12:36:01 GMT) it happened Glen Walpert
>>><nospam@null.void> wrote in <REqAM.325523$U3w1.90839@fx09.iad>:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 03:32:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Physicists achieve fusion with net energy gain for second time
>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/08/physicists-achieve-fusion-net-
>>>>energy-gain-for-second-time/
>>>>>
>>>>> Not counting mains power used for the equipment....
>>>>> that is still a factor 100 or so higher.
>>>>
>>>>Another bit of propaganda intended to deceive the public about the actual
>>>>purpose of inertial confinement fusion testing. The LLNL project has no
>>>>deliverables available to anyone not working on the development of the
>>>>next generation H-bomb, and the notion that the lasers, which need to cool
>>>>for more than an hour between shots, could somehow be made so efficient
>>>>that wall-plug break even could be obtained is laughable.
>>>
>>>Does not John Larkin supply equipment for them?
>>
>>Yes, the master timing system and two generations of beam
>>modulators.
>>
>>Here's a 2nd gen modulator chassis, units delivered last
>>year. They mount their dual-stage Mach-Zender optical
>>modulator inside.
>>
>>https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjzhoths9v55gpq/Man_Front_1.jpg?raw=1
>>
>>https://www.dropbox.com/s/29ttap9urihhep1/T500_Top_Final.jpg?raw=1
>>
>>This gives them better modulation control (more bandwidth,
>>better s/n) than our older boxes. The giant aluminum block
>>is an oven that stabilizes the e/o modulator. The heaters
>>are mosfets.
>
>Nice box!
>Where does it get power from, mains?
>I do not see any power connector?

We use a 24 volt laptop type power supply. That avoided a
bunch of safety reviwews.

The upper ribbon cable brings the power in from a little
board, not visible, with a locking barrel connector.

On a sunny day (Wed, 09 Aug 2023 09:11:57 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
<uge7dip3aphojiomb1ntni206gi7m7o7tb@4ax.com>:

>On Wed, 09 Aug 2023 16:00:08 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Wed, 09 Aug 2023 07:21:12 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
>><kl77dip788k3ma1csctq54bnrtbu66vnk6@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 15:09:44 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>>><alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 08 Aug 2023 12:36:01 GMT) it happened Glen Walpert
>>>><nospam@null.void> wrote in <REqAM.325523$U3w1.90839@fx09.iad>:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 03:32:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Physicists achieve fusion with net energy gain for second time
>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/08/physicists-achieve-fusion-net-
>>>>>energy-gain-for-second-time/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not counting mains power used for the equipment....
>>>>>> that is still a factor 100 or so higher.
>>>>>
>>>>>Another bit of propaganda intended to deceive the public about the actual
>>>>>purpose of inertial confinement fusion testing. The LLNL project has no
>>>>>deliverables available to anyone not working on the development of the
>>>>>next generation H-bomb, and the notion that the lasers, which need to cool
>>>>>for more than an hour between shots, could somehow be made so efficient
>>>>>that wall-plug break even could be obtained is laughable.
>>>>
>>>>Does not John Larkin supply equipment for them?
>>>
>>>Yes, the master timing system and two generations of beam
>>>modulators.
>>>
>>>Here's a 2nd gen modulator chassis, units delivered last
>>>year. They mount their dual-stage Mach-Zender optical
>>>modulator inside.
>>>
>>>https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjzhoths9v55gpq/Man_Front_1.jpg?raw=1
>>>
>>>https://www.dropbox.com/s/29ttap9urihhep1/T500_Top_Final.jpg?raw=1
>>>
>>>This gives them better modulation control (more bandwidth,
>>>better s/n) than our older boxes. The giant aluminum block
>>>is an oven that stabilizes the e/o modulator. The heaters
>>>are mosfets.
>>
>>Nice box!
>>Where does it get power from, mains?
>>I do not see any power connector?
>
>We use a 24 volt laptop type power supply. That avoided a
>bunch of safety reviwews.

Right, did something like that just a few days ago, this one on a 9 V (adjustable) wallwart.

>The upper ribbon cable brings the power in from a little
>board, not visible, with a locking barrel connector.