That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.

"Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturday then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per megawatt-hour. "

$2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes beyond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas power even change the rates on the fly like that?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity/

"But operators of the state's grid have entered recent summers warning of the possibility of lower power reserves as a crush of new residents strains an independent system. "

Lucky for them the types of failures due to continuous operation at almost Arrhenius temperature overstress conditions have significant spread in time.. This arises from the fact that standard deviation of the ( constant failure rate ) exponential distribution is equal to the mean a.k.a. the MTBF.

On a sunny day (Wed, 9 Aug 2023 09:20:34 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in
<3547282b-049f-4b5f-8ee4-8865fb48be6cn@googlegroups.com>:

>That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
>
>"Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturday then=
> the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour on Sun=
>day, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Council =
>of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per megaw=
>att-hour. "
>
>$2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes beyond g=
>etting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas power ev=
>en change the rates on the fly like that?
>
>https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity/
>
>"But operators of the state's grid have entered recent summers warning of t=
>he possibility of lower power reserves as a crush of new residents strains =
>an independent system. "
>
>Lucky for them the types of failures due to continuous operation at almost =
>Arrhenius temperature overstress conditions have significant spread in time=
>. This arises from the fact that standard deviation of the ( constant failu=
>re rate ) exponential distribution is equal to the mean a.k.a. the MTBF.

Does not Texas has a lot of natural gas?
It says
Lawmakers scramble to make sure more natural gas power plants are built for the Texas grid
Why did they not start earlier?
Is the net perhaps also overloaded with electric cars apart from new citizens??

On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:45:21 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Wed, 9 Aug 2023 09:20:34 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <3547282b-049f-4b5f...@googlegroups.com>:
> >That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
> >
> >"Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturday then=
> > the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour on Sun=
> >day, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Council =
> >of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per megaw=
> >att-hour. "
> >
> >$2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes beyond g=
> >etting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas power ev> >en change the rates on the fly like that?
> >
> >https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity/
> >
> >"But operators of the state's grid have entered recent summers warning of t=
> >he possibility of lower power reserves as a crush of new residents strains =
> >an independent system. "
> >
> >Lucky for them the types of failures due to continuous operation at almost =
> >Arrhenius temperature overstress conditions have significant spread in time=
> >. This arises from the fact that standard deviation of the ( constant failu> >re rate ) exponential distribution is equal to the mean a.k.a. the MTBF.
> Does not Texas has a lot of natural gas?

They do, more than they could possibly use.

https://www.thecentersquare.com/texas/article_b976b344-6b5a-11ed-9473-a70b84714eda.html

> It says
> Lawmakers scramble to make sure more natural gas power plants are built for the Texas grid
> Why did they not start earlier?
> Is the net perhaps also overloaded with electric cars apart from new citizens??

They just haven't invested enough into it:

https://comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2022/sep/energy.php

On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
>
> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturday then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per megawatt-hour. "
>
> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes beyond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas power even change the rates on the fly like that?
>
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity/

I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the wholesale level. In a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that allowed access to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates reached some very high numbers.. Of course, those rates would only apply to the additional power required at peak times, so not to all the power being used.

I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost enough to make me charge my car at a public charger.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 11:40:44 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:45:21 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> > On a sunny day (Wed, 9 Aug 2023 09:20:34 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
> > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > <3547282b-049f-4b5f...@googlegroups.com>:
> > >That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
> > >
> > >"Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturday then=
> > > the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour on Sun=
> > >day, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Council =
> > >of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per megaw=
> > >att-hour. "
> > >
> > >$2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes beyond g=
> > >etting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas power ev=
> > >en change the rates on the fly like that?
> > >
> > >https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity/
> > >
> > >"But operators of the state's grid have entered recent summers warning of t=
> > >he possibility of lower power reserves as a crush of new residents strains =
> > >an independent system. "
> > >
> > >Lucky for them the types of failures due to continuous operation at almost =
> > >Arrhenius temperature overstress conditions have significant spread in time=
> > >. This arises from the fact that standard deviation of the ( constant failu=
> > >re rate ) exponential distribution is equal to the mean a.k.a. the MTBF.
> > Does not Texas has a lot of natural gas?
> They do, more than they could possibly use.
>
> https://www.thecentersquare.com/texas/article_b976b344-6b5a-11ed-9473-a70b84714eda.html
> > It says
> > Lawmakers scramble to make sure more natural gas power plants are built for the Texas grid
> > Why did they not start earlier?
> > Is the net perhaps also overloaded with electric cars apart from new citizens??
> They just haven't invested enough into it:
>
> https://comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2022/sep/energy.php

Problems
1. Texas doesn't connect to the rest of U.S. grid; so, they can't just buy cheap power.
2. They don't have pipes from where the natural gas are, usually oil fields, and they just burn off the gas instead.

On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
> >
> > "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturday then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per megawatt-hour. "
> >
> > $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes beyond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas power even change the rates on the fly like that?
> >
> > https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity/
> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the wholesale level. In a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that allowed access to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates reached some very high numbers.. Of course, those rates would only apply to the additional power required at peak times, so not to all the power being used.
>
> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost enough to make me charge my car at a public charger.

Those are retail rates.

>
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 6:15:14 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
> > >
> > > "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturday then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per megawatt-hour. "
> > >
> > > $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes beyond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas power even change the rates on the fly like that?
> > >
> > > https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity/
> > I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the wholesale level. In a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that allowed access to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates reached some very high numbers. Of course, those rates would only apply to the additional power required at peak times, so not to all the power being used.
> >
> > I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost enough to make me charge my car at a public charger.
> Those are retail rates.

You misunderstand. The point is that the rates EVERYWHERE vary over the day. At peak times, the rates get very high indeed.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On a sunny day (Wed, 9 Aug 2023 11:40:38 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in
<f26add10-10a6-451b-91e3-d896fe928095n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:45:21 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wr=
>ote:
>> On a sunny day (Wed, 9 Aug 2023 09:20:34 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bl=
>oggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> <3547282b-049f-4b5f...@googlegroups.com>:
>> >That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
>> >
>> >"Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturday t=
>hen=
>> > the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour on =
>Sun=
>> >day, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Counc=
>il =
>> >of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per me=
>gaw=
>> >att-hour. "
>> >
>> >$2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes beyon=
>d g=
>> >etting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas power=
> ev=
>> >en change the rates on the fly like that?
>> >
>> >https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity/=
>
>> >
>> >"But operators of the state's grid have entered recent summers warning o=
>f t=
>> >he possibility of lower power reserves as a crush of new residents strai=
>ns =
>> >an independent system. "
>> >
>> >Lucky for them the types of failures due to continuous operation at almo=
>st =
>> >Arrhenius temperature overstress conditions have significant spread in t=
>ime=
>> >. This arises from the fact that standard deviation of the ( constant fa=
>ilu=
>> >re rate ) exponential distribution is equal to the mean a.k.a. the MTBF.
>> Does not Texas has a lot of natural gas?
>
>They do, more than they could possibly use.
>
>https://www.thecentersquare.com/texas/article_b976b344-6b5a-11ed-9473-a70b8=
>4714eda.html
>
>> It says
>> Lawmakers scramble to make sure more natural gas power plants are built f=
>or the Texas grid
>> Why did they not start earlier?
>> Is the net perhaps also overloaded with electric cars apart from new citi=
>zens??
>
>They just haven't invested enough into it:
>
>https://comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2022/sep/energy.php

Thanks, nice link
Not much nuclear in Texas it seems.

On 09/08/2023 23:15, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
>>>
>>> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturday then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per megawatt-hour. "
>>>
>>> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes beyond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas power even change the rates on the fly like that?
>>>
>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity/
>> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the wholesale level. In a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that allowed access to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates reached some very high numbers. Of course, those rates would only apply to the additional power required at peak times, so not to all the power being used.
>>
>> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost enough to make me charge my car at a public charger.
>
> Those are retail rates.

Boggle!

Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity billing system
if it can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour to reflect local
demand vs power availability in realtime.

There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do dynamic pricing
but so far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing an incentive to
people to not use power at peak times of day when the margin between
electricity generation and load is very tight.

Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days.

--
Martin Brown

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 5:10:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 09/08/2023 23:15, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
> >>>
> >>> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturday then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per megawatt-hour. "
> >>>
> >>> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes beyond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas power even change the rates on the fly like that?
> >>>
> >>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity/
> >> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the wholesale level. In a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that allowed access to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates reached some very high numbers. Of course, those rates would only apply to the additional power required at peak times, so not to all the power being used.
> >>
> >> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost enough to make me charge my car at a public charger.
> >
> > Those are retail rates.
> Boggle!
>
> Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity billing system
> if it can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour to reflect local
> demand vs power availability in realtime.
>
> There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do dynamic pricing
> but so far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing an incentive to
> people to not use power at peak times of day when the margin between
> electricity generation and load is very tight.
>
> Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days.

In Texas, if you are on a variable rate plan, you don't find out how much you are being billed until you *get* your bill. That's what happened a few years ago, when Texas had a serious cold snap. The grid was collapsing in areas so that some people had no heat. People died. Then, when the survivors got their bills for thousands of dollars, all hell broke loose! Yeah, that actually happened.

Politicians tried to blame it on wind turbines locking up because they had not been setup to work below freezing. In reality, the planners had been cutting back on the grid for some years, trying to save money and it was just over taxed to the point of failure.

Now, every year is a spectator's thrill to see if it repeats.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 8/10/2023 2:10 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> Boggle!
>
> Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity billing system if it
> can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour to reflect local demand vs
> power availability in realtime.

It's pseudo real-time. Time-of-Use and Demand billing have been around
for a long time (I designed such a KWHr meter some 30+ years ago).
There are also hooks to allow the utility to manage "your" load
(or, significant aspects of it) to "shape" the load they see.

Large businesses will "make ice" during the overnight hours when
electricity is "free" -- because their tariff bases their pricing
on their *peak* demand, which disappears when the business is
closed overnight! The energy spent making ice has little cost
but cuts down their cooling costs during the following *day* -- when
the building is occupied.

[It also lets the HVAC be sized more affordably]

Local jurisdictions petition regulators to establish the different
types of tariffs that they can offer to their customers (e.g., businesses,
home owners, etc). Now, that also includes how cogeneration is handled.

Once a tariff is approved, it's up to the individual consumers to decide
under which "contract" they want to be supplied with their power.

In times of surplus generation capacity, the consumer gets a deal.
In times of shortage, he gets a f*cking!

But, this was something he *agreed* to. (Of course, everyone thinks
the "deal" will be better than it actually is and the f*cking not
quite as bad as it actually turns out! :> )

Texas is odd because they aren't really connected to the "national"
grid(s). So, when their load exceeds their capacity to deliver,
they can't "import" power.

And, the right-wing legislators, there, want to make "green energy"
more difficult to deploy. Presumably, their population likes this
sort of screwing!

> There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do dynamic pricing but so
> far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing an incentive to people to not
> use power at peak times of day when the margin between electricity generation
> and load is very tight.

The ToU tariff offered here is ludicrous. You'd have to ONLY use power
after dark and hope your building had sufficiently cooled from the daytime
highs that you didn't need the ACbrrr. If you look at real usage data,
such a tariff typically cost you MUCH more (because you typically WANT
to use it when everyone else ALSO wants to use it!)

[Even folks who leave homes empty during the day -- for $WORK -- have
to return home while its still warm enough to *require* refrigeration.
E.g., it's 4:30A -- almost the coolest part of the day -- and its still
83F outside. Plan on 90F until midnight so the ACbrrr is running
effectively all day.]

Bills, locally, are averaging about $300/month during this season. OTOH,
"winter" usage drops considerably so its hard to say prices are too high
(of course, everyone thinks so... but, you can turn off your loads to
reduce your consumption!)

> Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days
"Cold"? "Grey"? What are those? :>

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 5:10:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 09/08/2023 23:15, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
> >>>
> >>> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturday then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per megawatt-hour. "
> >>>
> >>> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes beyond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas power even change the rates on the fly like that?
> >>>
> >>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity/
> >> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the wholesale level. In a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that allowed access to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates reached some very high numbers. Of course, those rates would only apply to the additional power required at peak times, so not to all the power being used.
> >>
> >> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost enough to make me charge my car at a public charger.
> >
> > Those are retail rates.
> Boggle!
>
> Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity billing system
> if it can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour to reflect local
> demand vs power availability in realtime.
>
> There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do dynamic pricing
> but so far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing an incentive to
> people to not use power at peak times of day when the margin between
> electricity generation and load is very tight.
>
> Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days.

Exactly. How could it possibly be an incentive to conserve when people don't even know what the rate is. And I wonder if they will even accept a homeowners time stamped energy use record to adjust what would be a huge bill. They're talking about a normally monthly $500 bill going to about $2500 in a single month!

They have to be doing a blanket effective rate calculation for the billing:

T is total billing cycle hours, R is $/kWh, R1 is temporary rate for T1 hours, R2 for T2 etc... Then the effective rate for all the billing is Reff

Reff= (R1 x T1 + R2 x T2 +....+Rn x Tn)/ (T1 + T2 + ... + Tn =T)

Meter reading for consumer is E kWh, $= Reff X E

Actually that should work out pretty well except for people on solar during peak demand periods.

If it was any place other than Texas, the power company would be on the carpet explaining in great and auditable detail the justification for horrendous cost increase to the state corporation commission.

>
> --
> Martin Brown

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in
<8eccedc6-e749-4220-8334-588e263140e6n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 5:10:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrot=
>e:
>> On 09/08/2023 23:15, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:=
>
>> >> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs=
> wrote:
>> >>> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
>> >>>
>> >>> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturda=
>y then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour =
>on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Co=
>uncil of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per=
> megawatt-hour. "
>> >>>
>> >>> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes be=
>yond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas po=
>wer even change the rates on the fly like that?
>> >>>
>> >>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity=
>/
>> >> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the wholesale level. In=
> a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that allowed acce=
>ss to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates reached some very high numb=
>ers. Of course, those rates would only apply to the additional power requir=
>ed at peak times, so not to all the power being used.
>> >>
>> >> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost enough to make me=
> charge my car at a public charger.
>> >
>> > Those are retail rates.
>> Boggle!
>>
>> Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity billing system=
>
>> if it can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour to reflect local=
>
>> demand vs power availability in realtime.
>>
>> There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do dynamic pricing=
>
>> but so far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing an incentive to=
>
>> people to not use power at peak times of day when the margin between
>> electricity generation and load is very tight.
>>
>> Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days.
>
>Exactly. How could it possibly be an incentive to conserve when people don'=
>t even know what the rate is. And I wonder if they will even accept a homeo=
>wners time stamped energy use record to adjust what would be a huge bill. T=
>hey're talking about a normally monthly $500 bill going to about $2500 in a=
> single month!
>
>They have to be doing a blanket effective rate calculation for the billing:
>
>T is total billing cycle hours, R is $/kWh, R1 is temporary rate for T1 hou=
>rs, R2 for T2 etc... Then the effective rate for all the billing is Reff
>
>Reff= (R1 x T1 + R2 x T2 +....+Rn x Tn)/ (T1 + T2 + ... + Tn =T)
>
>Meter reading for consumer is E kWh, $= Reff X E
>
>Actually that should work out pretty well except for people on solar during=
> peak demand periods.
>
>If it was any place other than Texas, the power company would be on the car=
>pet explaining in great and auditable detail the justification for horrendo=
>us cost increase to the state corporation commission.

We had, in the sixties, a big tank with oil in the garden for the central heating system.
These days maybe a portable diesel generator would be a good idea in Texas.
And solar panels with some storage of course.

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 10:00:39 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <8eccedc6-e749-4220...@googlegroups.com>:
>
> >On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 5:10:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrot> >e:
> >> On 09/08/2023 23:15, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:=
> >
> >> >> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs> > wrote:
> >> >>> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturda=
> >y then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour =
> >on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Co=
> >uncil of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per=
> > megawatt-hour. "
> >> >>>
> >> >>> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes be=
> >yond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas po> >wer even change the rates on the fly like that?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity=
> >/
> >> >> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the wholesale level. In=
> > a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that allowed acce=
> >ss to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates reached some very high numb=
> >ers. Of course, those rates would only apply to the additional power requir> >ed at peak times, so not to all the power being used.
> >> >>
> >> >> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost enough to make me> > charge my car at a public charger.
> >> >
> >> > Those are retail rates.
> >> Boggle!
> >>
> >> Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity billing system=
> >
> >> if it can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour to reflect local> >
> >> demand vs power availability in realtime.
> >>
> >> There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do dynamic pricing=
> >
> >> but so far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing an incentive to> >
> >> people to not use power at peak times of day when the margin between
> >> electricity generation and load is very tight.
> >>
> >> Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days.
> >
> >Exactly. How could it possibly be an incentive to conserve when people don'=
> >t even know what the rate is. And I wonder if they will even accept a homeo=
> >wners time stamped energy use record to adjust what would be a huge bill.. T=
> >hey're talking about a normally monthly $500 bill going to about $2500 in a> > single month!
> >
> >They have to be doing a blanket effective rate calculation for the billing:
> >
> >T is total billing cycle hours, R is $/kWh, R1 is temporary rate for T1 hou> >rs, R2 for T2 etc... Then the effective rate for all the billing is Reff
> >
> >Reff= (R1 x T1 + R2 x T2 +....+Rn x Tn)/ (T1 + T2 + ... + Tn =T)
> >
> >Meter reading for consumer is E kWh, $= Reff X E
> >
> >Actually that should work out pretty well except for people on solar during=
> > peak demand periods.
> >
> >If it was any place other than Texas, the power company would be on the car=
> >pet explaining in great and auditable detail the justification for horrendo> >us cost increase to the state corporation commission.
> We had, in the sixties, a big tank with oil in the garden for the central heating system.
> These days maybe a portable diesel generator would be a good idea in Texas.
> And solar panels with some storage of course.

U.S. is going with the microgrid model and the business is positively booming. They're becoming part and parcel upscale housing developments, the kind with a guard house and vehicle barrier gate.

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2023/02/06/rapidly-growing-u-s-microgrid-market-achieves-10-gw-in-2022/

Now the local neighborhood association can manage a microgrid.

On 2023-08-10 16:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in
> <8eccedc6-e749-4220-8334-588e263140e6n@googlegroups.com>:
>
>> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 5:10:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrot=
>> e:
>>> On 09/08/2023 23:15, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:=
>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs=
>> wrote:
>>>>>> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturda=
>> y then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour =
>> on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Co=
>> uncil of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per=
>> megawatt-hour. "
>>>>>>
>>>>>> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes be=
>> yond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas po=
>> wer even change the rates on the fly like that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity=
>> /
>>>>> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the wholesale level. In=
>> a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that allowed acce=
>> ss to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates reached some very high numb=
>> ers. Of course, those rates would only apply to the additional power requir=
>> ed at peak times, so not to all the power being used.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost enough to make me=
>> charge my car at a public charger.
>>>>
>>>> Those are retail rates.
>>> Boggle!
>>>
>>> Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity billing system=
>>
>>> if it can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour to reflect local=
>>
>>> demand vs power availability in realtime.
>>>
>>> There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do dynamic pricing=
>>
>>> but so far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing an incentive to=
>>
>>> people to not use power at peak times of day when the margin between
>>> electricity generation and load is very tight.
>>>
>>> Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days.
>>
>> Exactly. How could it possibly be an incentive to conserve when people don'=
>> t even know what the rate is. And I wonder if they will even accept a homeo=
>> wners time stamped energy use record to adjust what would be a huge bill. T=
>> hey're talking about a normally monthly $500 bill going to about $2500 in a=
>> single month!
>>
>> They have to be doing a blanket effective rate calculation for the billing:
>>
>> T is total billing cycle hours, R is $/kWh, R1 is temporary rate for T1 hou=
>> rs, R2 for T2 etc... Then the effective rate for all the billing is Reff
>>
>> Reff= (R1 x T1 + R2 x T2 +....+Rn x Tn)/ (T1 + T2 + ... + Tn =T)
>>
>> Meter reading for consumer is E kWh, $= Reff X E
>>
>> Actually that should work out pretty well except for people on solar during=
>> peak demand periods.
>>
>> If it was any place other than Texas, the power company would be on the car=
>> pet explaining in great and auditable detail the justification for horrendo=
>> us cost increase to the state corporation commission.
>
> We had, in the sixties, a big tank with oil in the garden for the central heating system.
> These days maybe a portable diesel generator would be a good idea in Texas.
> And solar panels with some storage of course.
>

I think that heating oil is so dirty it would kill a diesel in no time
flat and fuel fit for diesels is taxed to death, so there is no bliss
that way.

Jeroen Belleman

On 10/08/2023 21:12, jeroen wrote:
> On 2023-08-10 16:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>
>> We had, in the sixties, a big tank with oil in the garden for the
>> central heating system.
>> These days maybe a portable diesel generator would be a good idea in
>> Texas.
>> And solar panels with some storage of course.
>
> I think that heating oil is so dirty it would kill a diesel in no time
> flat and fuel fit for diesels is taxed to death, so there is no bliss
> that way.

I don't think heating oil would do the engine management sensors much
good but it probably would run on it once the engine was warmed up on
real diesel. More likely to work with a generating set than a car.

There is also red diesel for agricultural use which contains a dye and
chemical markers to show that it is low tax and not for on road use.

UK has recently made some pretty silly rules about its use which means
that quarrying is now uneconomic and road works lighting must use road
legal diesel (and so get stolen or fuel tanks emptied rather often).

--
Martin Brown

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 4:12:45 PM UTC-4, jeroen wrote:
> On 2023-08-10 16:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> > On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
> > <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > <8eccedc6-e749-4220...@googlegroups.com>:
> >
> >> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 5:10:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrot> >> e:
> >>> On 09/08/2023 23:15, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:=
> >>
> >>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs> >> wrote:
> >>>>>> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturda=
> >> y then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour =
> >> on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Co=
> >> uncil of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per=
> >> megawatt-hour. "
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes be=
> >> yond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas po=
> >> wer even change the rates on the fly like that?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity=
> >> /
> >>>>> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the wholesale level. In=
> >> a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that allowed acce=
> >> ss to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates reached some very high numb=
> >> ers. Of course, those rates would only apply to the additional power requir=
> >> ed at peak times, so not to all the power being used.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost enough to make me=
> >> charge my car at a public charger.
> >>>>
> >>>> Those are retail rates.
> >>> Boggle!
> >>>
> >>> Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity billing system=
> >>
> >>> if it can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour to reflect local=
> >>
> >>> demand vs power availability in realtime.
> >>>
> >>> There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do dynamic pricing=
> >>
> >>> but so far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing an incentive to=
> >>
> >>> people to not use power at peak times of day when the margin between
> >>> electricity generation and load is very tight.
> >>>
> >>> Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days.
> >>
> >> Exactly. How could it possibly be an incentive to conserve when people don'=
> >> t even know what the rate is. And I wonder if they will even accept a homeo=
> >> wners time stamped energy use record to adjust what would be a huge bill. T=
> >> hey're talking about a normally monthly $500 bill going to about $2500 in a=
> >> single month!
> >>
> >> They have to be doing a blanket effective rate calculation for the billing:
> >>
> >> T is total billing cycle hours, R is $/kWh, R1 is temporary rate for T1 hou=
> >> rs, R2 for T2 etc... Then the effective rate for all the billing is Reff
> >>
> >> Reff= (R1 x T1 + R2 x T2 +....+Rn x Tn)/ (T1 + T2 + ... + Tn =T)
> >>
> >> Meter reading for consumer is E kWh, $= Reff X E
> >>
> >> Actually that should work out pretty well except for people on solar during=
> >> peak demand periods.
> >>
> >> If it was any place other than Texas, the power company would be on the car=
> >> pet explaining in great and auditable detail the justification for horrendo=
> >> us cost increase to the state corporation commission.
> >
> > We had, in the sixties, a big tank with oil in the garden for the central heating system.
> > These days maybe a portable diesel generator would be a good idea in Texas.
> > And solar panels with some storage of course.
> >
> I think that heating oil is so dirty it would kill a diesel in no time
> flat and fuel fit for diesels is taxed to death, so there is no bliss
> that way.

"Dirty"??? The different grades of petroleum differ in their boiling point.. They are all separated in fractional distillation. The only grade that would be "dirty" (if any) would be the bunker fuel oil that is essentially the stuff that never boils off at all. I think this is the bit that fuels ships and the distillation itself.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 8/10/2023 1:22 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 10/08/2023 21:12, jeroen wrote:
>> I think that heating oil is so dirty it would kill a diesel in no time
>> flat and fuel fit for diesels is taxed to death, so there is no bliss
>> that way.
>
> I don't think heating oil would do the engine management sensors much good but
> it probably would run on it once the engine was warmed up on real diesel. More
> likely to work with a generating set than a car.

Having grown up with oil-fired heat, I can say that the "quality" of
the fuel delivered would vary greatly. More than once having to clean the
jets in the furnace due to the "crud" in the fuel.

Plus, regular cleaning of the sediment bowl/filter at the outlet of the
tank.

And, an oil-fired furnace (of that era) isn't particularly "picky"
about what it will burn! If it can be atomized and ignite to
sustain a flame, that's all that mattered!

[My folks' employer would accept used *motor* oil to burn in the heat-treating
forges. I'm sure that would run afoul of regulations nowadays!]

> There is also red diesel for agricultural use which contains a dye and chemical
> markers to show that it is low tax and not for on road use.

Yes. But, if you have farm vehicles, you likely have on-site storage
for that fuel. Who's going to prevent you from using it for "other"
purposes? Police don't regularly examine the fuel in diesel vehicles
just to verify that it's "street legal". (i.e., a neighbor would
have to tip someone off to this sort of violation... and, that someone
would have to care enough about it to actually pursue it!)

> UK has recently made some pretty silly rules about its use which means that
> quarrying is now uneconomic and road works lighting must use road legal diesel
> (and so get stolen or fuel tanks emptied rather often).

On 2023-08-10 22:29, Ricky wrote:
> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 4:12:45 PM UTC-4, jeroen wrote:
>> On 2023-08-10 16:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT)) it
>>> happened Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> <8eccedc6-e749-4220...@googlegroups.com>:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 5:10:56 AM UTC-4, Martin
>>>> Brown wrot= e:
>>>>> On 09/08/2023 23:15, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4, Ricky
>>>>>> wrote:=
>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred
>>>>>>> Bloggs=
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for
>>>>>>>> power on Saturda=
>>>> y then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per
>>>> megawatt-hour = on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from
>>>> the Electric Reliability Co= uncil of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so
>>>> far on Monday have topped off at $915 per= megawatt-hour. "
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and
>>>>>>>> ridiculous. It goes be=
>>>> yond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when
>>>> can Texas po= wer even change the rates on the fly like that?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity=
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
/ >>>>>>> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the
>>>>>>> wholesale level. In=
>>>> a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that
>>>> allowed acce= ss to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates
>>>> reached some very high numb= ers. Of course, those rates would
>>>> only apply to the additional power requir= ed at peak times, so
>>>> not to all the power being used.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost
>>>>>>> enough to make me=
>>>> charge my car at a public charger.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are retail rates.
>>>>> Boggle!
>>>>>
>>>>> Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity
>>>>> billing system=
>>>>
>>>>> if it can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour to
>>>>> reflect local=
>>>>
>>>>> demand vs power availability in realtime.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do
>>>>> dynamic pricing=
>>>>
>>>>> but so far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing an
>>>>> incentive to=
>>>>
>>>>> people to not use power at peak times of day when the margin
>>>>> between electricity generation and load is very tight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days.
>>>>
>>>> Exactly. How could it possibly be an incentive to conserve when
>>>> people don'= t even know what the rate is. And I wonder if they
>>>> will even accept a homeo= wners time stamped energy use record
>>>> to adjust what would be a huge bill. T= hey're talking about a
>>>> normally monthly $500 bill going to about $2500 in a= single
>>>> month!
>>>>
>>>> They have to be doing a blanket effective rate calculation for
>>>> the billing:
>>>>
>>>> T is total billing cycle hours, R is $/kWh, R1 is temporary
>>>> rate for T1 hou= rs, R2 for T2 etc... Then the effective rate
>>>> for all the billing is Reff
>>>>
>>>> Reff= (R1 x T1 + R2 x T2 +....+Rn x Tn)/ (T1 + T2 + ... + Tn
>>>> =T)
>>>>
>>>> Meter reading for consumer is E kWh, $= Reff X E
>>>>
>>>> Actually that should work out pretty well except for people on
>>>> solar during= peak demand periods.
>>>>
>>>> If it was any place other than Texas, the power company would
>>>> be on the car= pet explaining in great and auditable detail the
>>>> justification for horrendo= us cost increase to the state
>>>> corporation commission.
>>>
>>> We had, in the sixties, a big tank with oil in the garden for the
>>> central heating system. These days maybe a portable diesel
>>> generator would be a good idea in Texas. And solar panels with
>>> some storage of course.
>>>
>> I think that heating oil is so dirty it would kill a diesel in no
>> time flat and fuel fit for diesels is taxed to death, so there is
>> no bliss that way.
>
> "Dirty"??? The different grades of petroleum differ in their boiling
> point. They are all separated in fractional distillation. The only
> grade that would be "dirty" (if any) would be the bunker fuel oil
> that is essentially the stuff that never boils off at all. I think
> this is the bit that fuels ships and the distillation itself.
>

That's simplistic. Heating oil is made unsuitable for use in engines
*on purpose* for the same reason that most of the world's ethanol is
made unsuitable for drinking: taxes.

Jeroen Belleman

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 4:37:37 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/10/2023 1:22 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
> > On 10/08/2023 21:12, jeroen wrote:
> >> I think that heating oil is so dirty it would kill a diesel in no time
> >> flat and fuel fit for diesels is taxed to death, so there is no bliss
> >> that way.
> >
> > I don't think heating oil would do the engine management sensors much good but
> > it probably would run on it once the engine was warmed up on real diesel. More
> > likely to work with a generating set than a car.
> Having grown up with oil-fired heat, I can say that the "quality" of
> the fuel delivered would vary greatly. More than once having to clean the
> jets in the furnace due to the "crud" in the fuel.
>
> Plus, regular cleaning of the sediment bowl/filter at the outlet of the
> tank.
>
> And, an oil-fired furnace (of that era) isn't particularly "picky"
> about what it will burn! If it can be atomized and ignite to
> sustain a flame, that's all that mattered!

What do you think is in heating oil that would be "crud", depositing on the jet, that would pass the filter but not be in diesel fuel?

You have to clean the jet, because the furnace is not designed to burn it all off. The furnace is not a diesel engine.

I will repeat, that the only difference in petroleum portions is the boiling point. Diesel fuel and heating oil have significant overlap in the fractions used, so it's hard to imagine how they could be much different.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-4, jeroen wrote:
> On 2023-08-10 22:29, Ricky wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 4:12:45 PM UTC-4, jeroen wrote:
> >> On 2023-08-10 16:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >>> On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT)) it
> >>> happened Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>> <8eccedc6-e749-4220...@googlegroups.com>:
> >>>
> >>>> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 5:10:56 AM UTC-4, Martin
> >>>> Brown wrot= e:
> >>>>> On 09/08/2023 23:15, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4, Ricky
> >>>>>> wrote:=
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred
> >>>>>>> Bloggs=
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for
> >>>>>>>> power on Saturda=
> >>>> y then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per
> >>>> megawatt-hour = on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from
> >>>> the Electric Reliability Co= uncil of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so
> >>>> far on Monday have topped off at $915 per= megawatt-hour. "
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and
> >>>>>>>> ridiculous. It goes be=
> >>>> yond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when
> >>>> can Texas po= wer even change the rates on the fly like that?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity=
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> /
> >>>>>>> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the
> >>>>>>> wholesale level. In=
> >>>> a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that
> >>>> allowed acce= ss to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates
> >>>> reached some very high numb= ers. Of course, those rates would
> >>>> only apply to the additional power requir= ed at peak times, so
> >>>> not to all the power being used.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost
> >>>>>>> enough to make me=
> >>>> charge my car at a public charger.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Those are retail rates.
> >>>>> Boggle!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity
> >>>>> billing system=
> >>>>
> >>>>> if it can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour to
> >>>>> reflect local=
> >>>>
> >>>>> demand vs power availability in realtime.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do
> >>>>> dynamic pricing=
> >>>>
> >>>>> but so far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing an
> >>>>> incentive to=
> >>>>
> >>>>> people to not use power at peak times of day when the margin
> >>>>> between electricity generation and load is very tight.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days.
> >>>>
> >>>> Exactly. How could it possibly be an incentive to conserve when
> >>>> people don'= t even know what the rate is. And I wonder if they
> >>>> will even accept a homeo= wners time stamped energy use record
> >>>> to adjust what would be a huge bill. T= hey're talking about a
> >>>> normally monthly $500 bill going to about $2500 in a= single
> >>>> month!
> >>>>
> >>>> They have to be doing a blanket effective rate calculation for
> >>>> the billing:
> >>>>
> >>>> T is total billing cycle hours, R is $/kWh, R1 is temporary
> >>>> rate for T1 hou= rs, R2 for T2 etc... Then the effective rate
> >>>> for all the billing is Reff
> >>>>
> >>>> Reff= (R1 x T1 + R2 x T2 +....+Rn x Tn)/ (T1 + T2 + ... + Tn
> >>>> =T)
> >>>>
> >>>> Meter reading for consumer is E kWh, $= Reff X E
> >>>>
> >>>> Actually that should work out pretty well except for people on
> >>>> solar during= peak demand periods.
> >>>>
> >>>> If it was any place other than Texas, the power company would
> >>>> be on the car= pet explaining in great and auditable detail the
> >>>> justification for horrendo= us cost increase to the state
> >>>> corporation commission.
> >>>
> >>> We had, in the sixties, a big tank with oil in the garden for the
> >>> central heating system. These days maybe a portable diesel
> >>> generator would be a good idea in Texas. And solar panels with
> >>> some storage of course.
> >>>
> >> I think that heating oil is so dirty it would kill a diesel in no
> >> time flat and fuel fit for diesels is taxed to death, so there is
> >> no bliss that way.
> >
> > "Dirty"??? The different grades of petroleum differ in their boiling
> > point. They are all separated in fractional distillation. The only
> > grade that would be "dirty" (if any) would be the bunker fuel oil
> > that is essentially the stuff that never boils off at all. I think
> > this is the bit that fuels ships and the distillation itself.
> >
> That's simplistic. Heating oil is made unsuitable for use in engines
> *on purpose* for the same reason that most of the world's ethanol is
> made unsuitable for drinking: taxes.

Heating oil is not unsuitable for use in diesel engines. It will work just fine. The only issue you might have is the fuel gelling at a higher temperature. Otherwise, it's the same stuff! The only thing that makes it "unsuitable" for use in diesel engines is the red coloring they add.

Very few people actually understand much about how fuel is produced from crude oil, in spite of the fact that it's just distillation.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 8/10/2023 1:12 PM, jeroen wrote:
> I think that heating oil is so dirty it would kill a diesel in no time
> flat and fuel fit for diesels is taxed to death, so there is no bliss
> that way.

Heating oil is full of crud because of how it is treated AFTER manufacture.
I don't know many people who purchase their "virgin" fuels AT refineries! :>

There are national chains that will sell gasoline, diesel, E85, etc.
They have standards that they can impose on their outlets. They
have a reputation to protect so customers will be assured that
the product purchased by their Oregon outlet will be of the same
quality as that purchased in West Virginia.

But, heating oil is most often sold by small operators whose
suppliers may vary from week to week. Additionally, the effort
that they put into ensuring the quality of their DELIVERED
product only adds to their costs (heating oil is DELIVERED
meaning the vendor has to operate a fleet of trucks and drivers
to bring the product TO the customer; diesel is purchased
by the consumer coming *to* the distribution site. When was
the last time you drove *up* to a vendor and asked for 150
gallons of heating oil?)

And, as the vendor (the guy YOU purchase from) may have some
uncertainty in his market (people tend to be really conscious
of heating oil prices because they are buying it in large
volumes... not just a few gallons at a time), he may be as
much a "victim" as his customers: "Wow, that was a shitty
batch! We'll never buy from them again!" -- which is likely
what his customers are saying about *him*!

There is a reason you have an annual furnace cleaning and routinely
inspect the sediment cup/filter on your tank. If the fuel was
pristine, neither of these would be AS necessary.

Folks are often laughably naive in expecting two products to be
identical just because they carry the same generic name. Milk
is milk? Gasoline is gasoline? (do you really think they can
have different prices/costs if EVERYTHING about them is identical?)

I've a friend who pays almost a dollar more, per gallon, to
buy his gasoline from a national brand instead of the local
discount suppliers (like Costco). In addition to the added
cost, there is the inconvenience of having to drive to that
vendor, passing several other opportunities along the way.

He had *one* bad experience with clogged injectors that he
blamed on his use of Costco gas and made the switch. He's
not had a repeat problem and figures the added cost of the
fuel is more than offset by having use of his vehicle without
extra shop visits (and costs).

On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 22:12:36 +0200, jeroen <jeroen@nospam.please>
wrote:

>On 2023-08-10 16:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in
>> <8eccedc6-e749-4220-8334-588e263140e6n@googlegroups.com>:
>>
>>> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 5:10:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrot=
>>> e:
>>>> On 09/08/2023 23:15, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:=
>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs=
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour for power on Saturda=
>>> y then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500 per megawatt-hour =
>>> on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing data from the Electric Reliability Co=
>>> uncil of Texas (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915 per=
>>> megawatt-hour. "
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and ridiculous. It goes be=
>>> yond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since when can Texas po=
>>> wer even change the rates on the fly like that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity=
>>> /
>>>>>> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the wholesale level. In=
>>> a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link that allowed acce=
>>> ss to wholesale rates by the minute. Peak rates reached some very high numb=
>>> ers. Of course, those rates would only apply to the additional power requir=
>>> ed at peak times, so not to all the power being used.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost enough to make me=
>>> charge my car at a public charger.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those are retail rates.
>>>> Boggle!
>>>>
>>>> Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity billing system=
>>>
>>>> if it can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour to reflect local=
>>>
>>>> demand vs power availability in realtime.
>>>>
>>>> There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do dynamic pricing=
>>>
>>>> but so far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing an incentive to=
>>>
>>>> people to not use power at peak times of day when the margin between
>>>> electricity generation and load is very tight.
>>>>
>>>> Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days.
>>>
>>> Exactly. How could it possibly be an incentive to conserve when people don'=
>>> t even know what the rate is. And I wonder if they will even accept a homeo=
>>> wners time stamped energy use record to adjust what would be a huge bill. T=
>>> hey're talking about a normally monthly $500 bill going to about $2500 in a=
>>> single month!
>>>
>>> They have to be doing a blanket effective rate calculation for the billing:
>>>
>>> T is total billing cycle hours, R is $/kWh, R1 is temporary rate for T1 hou=
>>> rs, R2 for T2 etc... Then the effective rate for all the billing is Reff
>>>
>>> Reff= (R1 x T1 + R2 x T2 +....+Rn x Tn)/ (T1 + T2 + ... + Tn =T)
>>>
>>> Meter reading for consumer is E kWh, $= Reff X E
>>>
>>> Actually that should work out pretty well except for people on solar during=
>>> peak demand periods.
>>>
>>> If it was any place other than Texas, the power company would be on the car=
>>> pet explaining in great and auditable detail the justification for horrendo=
>>> us cost increase to the state corporation commission.
>>
>> We had, in the sixties, a big tank with oil in the garden for the central heating system.
>> These days maybe a portable diesel generator would be a good idea in Texas.
>> And solar panels with some storage of course.
>>
>
>
>I think that heating oil is so dirty it would kill a diesel in no time
>flat and fuel fit for diesels is taxed to death, so there is no bliss
>that way.
>

In the US, domestic heating oil and diesel fuel are essentially
identical, and there are all manner of rules and laws preventing
people from using heating oil in cars and trucks. I gather from
Martin Brown that the UK has a similar scheme.

Joe Gwinn

On 2023-08-10 23:51, Ricky wrote:
> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-4, jeroen wrote:
>> On 2023-08-10 22:29, Ricky wrote:
>>> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 4:12:45 PM UTC-4, jeroen wrote:
>>>> On 2023-08-10 16:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT)) it
>>>>> happened Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>> <8eccedc6-e749-4220...@googlegroups.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 5:10:56 AM UTC-4, Martin
>>>>>> Brown wrot= e:
>>>>>>> On 09/08/2023 23:15, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>> Ricky wrote:=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>> Fred Bloggs=
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour
>>>>>>>>>> for power on Saturda=
>>>>>> y then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500
>>>>>> per megawatt-hour = on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing
>>>>>> data from the Electric Reliability Co= uncil of Texas
>>>>>> (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915
>>>>>> per= megawatt-hour. "
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and
>>>>>>>>>> ridiculous. It goes be=
>>>>>> yond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since
>>>>>> when can Texas po= wer even change the rates on the fly
>>>>>> like that?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>
/ >>>>>>>>> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the
>>>>>>>>> wholesale level. In=
>>>>>> a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link
>>>>>> that allowed acce= ss to wholesale rates by the minute.
>>>>>> Peak rates reached some very high numb= ers. Of course,
>>>>>> those rates would only apply to the additional power
>>>>>> requir= ed at peak times, so not to all the power being
>>>>>> used.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost
>>>>>>>>> enough to make me=
>>>>>> charge my car at a public charger.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Those are retail rates.
>>>>>>> Boggle!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity
>>>>>>> billing system=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> if it can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour
>>>>>>> to reflect local=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> demand vs power availability in realtime.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do
>>>>>>> dynamic pricing=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but so far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing
>>>>>>> an incentive to=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> people to not use power at peak times of day when the
>>>>>>> margin between electricity generation and load is very
>>>>>>> tight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly. How could it possibly be an incentive to conserve
>>>>>> when people don'= t even know what the rate is. And I
>>>>>> wonder if they will even accept a homeo= wners time stamped
>>>>>> energy use record to adjust what would be a huge bill. T=
>>>>>> hey're talking about a normally monthly $500 bill going to
>>>>>> about $2500 in a= single month!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They have to be doing a blanket effective rate calculation
>>>>>> for the billing:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> T is total billing cycle hours, R is $/kWh, R1 is
>>>>>> temporary rate for T1 hou= rs, R2 for T2 etc... Then the
>>>>>> effective rate for all the billing is Reff
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reff= (R1 x T1 + R2 x T2 +....+Rn x Tn)/ (T1 + T2 + ... +
>>>>>> Tn =T)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Meter reading for consumer is E kWh, $= Reff X E
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually that should work out pretty well except for people
>>>>>> on solar during= peak demand periods.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it was any place other than Texas, the power company
>>>>>> would be on the car= pet explaining in great and auditable
>>>>>> detail the justification for horrendo= us cost increase to
>>>>>> the state corporation commission.
>>>>>
>>>>> We had, in the sixties, a big tank with oil in the garden for
>>>>> the central heating system. These days maybe a portable
>>>>> diesel generator would be a good idea in Texas. And solar
>>>>> panels with some storage of course.
>>>>>
>>>> I think that heating oil is so dirty it would kill a diesel in
>>>> no time flat and fuel fit for diesels is taxed to death, so
>>>> there is no bliss that way.
>>>
>>> "Dirty"??? The different grades of petroleum differ in their
>>> boiling point. They are all separated in fractional distillation.
>>> The only grade that would be "dirty" (if any) would be the bunker
>>> fuel oil that is essentially the stuff that never boils off at
>>> all. I think this is the bit that fuels ships and the
>>> distillation itself.
>>>
>> That's simplistic. Heating oil is made unsuitable for use in
>> engines *on purpose* for the same reason that most of the world's
>> ethanol is made unsuitable for drinking: taxes.
>
> Heating oil is not unsuitable for use in diesel engines. It will
> work just fine. The only issue you might have is the fuel gelling at
> a higher temperature. Otherwise, it's the same stuff! The only
> thing that makes it "unsuitable" for use in diesel engines is the red
> coloring they add.
>
> Very few people actually understand much about how fuel is produced
> from crude oil, in spite of the fact that it's just distillation.
>

There's far more than 'just distillation'. There's cracking, blending,
additives, and probably lots of other things going on that I haven't
the motivation of finding out for you.

Jeroen Belleman

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:08:38 AM UTC-4, jeroen wrote:
> On 2023-08-10 23:51, Ricky wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 4:43:18 PM UTC-4, jeroen wrote:
> >> On 2023-08-10 22:29, Ricky wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 4:12:45 PM UTC-4, jeroen wrote:
> >>>> On 2023-08-10 16:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT)) it
> >>>>> happened Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>>>> <8eccedc6-e749-4220...@googlegroups.com>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 5:10:56 AM UTC-4, Martin
> >>>>>> Brown wrot= e:
> >>>>>>> On 09/08/2023 23:15, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-4,
> >>>>>>>> Ricky wrote:=
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:20:40 PM UTC-4,
> >>>>>>>>> Fred Bloggs=
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> That's not hyperbole, it's almost understatement.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "Texans were paying about $275 per megawatt-hour
> >>>>>>>>>> for power on Saturda=
> >>>>>> y then the cost rose more than 800% to a whopping $2,500
> >>>>>> per megawatt-hour = on Sunday, Bloomberg reported, citing
> >>>>>> data from the Electric Reliability Co= uncil of Texas
> >>>>>> (ERCOT). Prices so far on Monday have topped off at $915
> >>>>>> per= megawatt-hour. "
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> $2500 per Mwh is $2.50/kWh which is a LOT, and
> >>>>>>>>>> ridiculous. It goes be=
> >>>>>> yond getting people to conserve, it kills them. And since
> >>>>>> when can Texas po= wer even change the rates on the fly
> >>>>>> like that?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ercot-prices-texas-heat-wave-electricity=
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> /
> >>>>>>>>> I'm pretty sure these rates are not unusual at the
> >>>>>>>>> wholesale level. In=
> >>>>>> a discussion here a few years ago, someone posted a link
> >>>>>> that allowed acce= ss to wholesale rates by the minute.
> >>>>>> Peak rates reached some very high numb= ers. Of course,
> >>>>>> those rates would only apply to the additional power
> >>>>>> requir= ed at peak times, so not to all the power being
> >>>>>> used.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I would hate to pay even $275 per MWh. That's almost
> >>>>>>>>> enough to make me=
> >>>>>> charge my car at a public charger.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Those are retail rates.
> >>>>>>> Boggle!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Texas must have the world's most complicated electricity
> >>>>>>> billing system=
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> if it can vary consumer prices dynamically by the hour
> >>>>>>> to reflect local=
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> demand vs power availability in realtime.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There are moves afoot in the UK with smart meters to do
> >>>>>>> dynamic pricing=
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> but so far it has been mainly used as inverse. Providing
> >>>>>>> an incentive to=
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> people to not use power at peak times of day when the
> >>>>>>> margin between electricity generation and load is very
> >>>>>>> tight.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Typically on cold windless grey dismal winter's days.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Exactly. How could it possibly be an incentive to conserve
> >>>>>> when people don'= t even know what the rate is. And I
> >>>>>> wonder if they will even accept a homeo= wners time stamped
> >>>>>> energy use record to adjust what would be a huge bill. T=
> >>>>>> hey're talking about a normally monthly $500 bill going to
> >>>>>> about $2500 in a= single month!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They have to be doing a blanket effective rate calculation
> >>>>>> for the billing:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> T is total billing cycle hours, R is $/kWh, R1 is
> >>>>>> temporary rate for T1 hou= rs, R2 for T2 etc... Then the
> >>>>>> effective rate for all the billing is Reff
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Reff= (R1 x T1 + R2 x T2 +....+Rn x Tn)/ (T1 + T2 + ... +
> >>>>>> Tn =T)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Meter reading for consumer is E kWh, $= Reff X E
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Actually that should work out pretty well except for people
> >>>>>> on solar during= peak demand periods.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If it was any place other than Texas, the power company
> >>>>>> would be on the car= pet explaining in great and auditable
> >>>>>> detail the justification for horrendo= us cost increase to
> >>>>>> the state corporation commission.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We had, in the sixties, a big tank with oil in the garden for
> >>>>> the central heating system. These days maybe a portable
> >>>>> diesel generator would be a good idea in Texas. And solar
> >>>>> panels with some storage of course.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I think that heating oil is so dirty it would kill a diesel in
> >>>> no time flat and fuel fit for diesels is taxed to death, so
> >>>> there is no bliss that way.
> >>>
> >>> "Dirty"??? The different grades of petroleum differ in their
> >>> boiling point. They are all separated in fractional distillation.
> >>> The only grade that would be "dirty" (if any) would be the bunker
> >>> fuel oil that is essentially the stuff that never boils off at
> >>> all. I think this is the bit that fuels ships and the
> >>> distillation itself.
> >>>
> >> That's simplistic. Heating oil is made unsuitable for use in
> >> engines *on purpose* for the same reason that most of the world's
> >> ethanol is made unsuitable for drinking: taxes.
> >
> > Heating oil is not unsuitable for use in diesel engines. It will
> > work just fine. The only issue you might have is the fuel gelling at
> > a higher temperature. Otherwise, it's the same stuff! The only
> > thing that makes it "unsuitable" for use in diesel engines is the red
> > coloring they add.
> >
> > Very few people actually understand much about how fuel is produced
> > from crude oil, in spite of the fact that it's just distillation.
> >
> There's far more than 'just distillation'. There's cracking, blending,
> additives, and probably lots of other things going on that I haven't
> the motivation of finding out for you.

I think what you are saying is that you know nothing of cracking, blending, additives, etc. and you are too lazy to educate yourself. Cracking is a process of chemically cutting long chain hydrocarbons into smaller molecules using catalysts. This creates more of the fractions for fuel (gasoline, kerosene, diesel and heating oil) leaving less of the heavier fractions. This is rather agnostic for which output you are interested in.