On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
> >
> > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive?
> >
> > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?
> Possibly related -- definitely amusing!
>
> <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/>

When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed.

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:27:32 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
> > >
> > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive?
> > >
> > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?
> > Possibly related -- definitely amusing!
> >
> > <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/>
> When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed.

I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too?

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:17:17 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:27:32 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
> > > >
> > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive?
> > > >
> > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?
> > > Possibly related -- definitely amusing!
> > >
> > > <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/>
> > When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed.
> I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too?

But they don't give out free gas at Primm. Until the up-coming Pilot EVSE is ready, I have to carry 3.5 ocean spray bottles of ventilator batteries (14 total) in a luggage. Ocean spray is the best (not necessary the juice) because it is more uniform at the top. Others are narrow at the top. Each bottle holds 4 batteries perfectly. The luggage hides the blinking lights (it's not functioning as a bomb, short of).

http://108.213.66.240/bat3.jpg

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 3:46:25 AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:17:17 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:27:32 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
> > > > >
> > > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive?
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?
> > > > Possibly related -- definitely amusing!
> > > >
> > > > <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/>
> > > When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed.
> > I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too?
> But they don't give out free gas at Primm. Until the up-coming Pilot EVSE is ready, I have to carry 3.5 ocean spray bottles of ventilator batteries (14 total) in a luggage. Ocean spray is the best (not necessary the juice) because it is more uniform at the top. Others are narrow at the top. Each bottle holds 4 batteries perfectly. The luggage hides the blinking lights (it's not functioning as a bomb, short of).
>
> http://108.213.66.240/bat3.jpg

You really need to get to a shrink. This might still be early enough to be treatable.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 1:03:30 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 3:46:25 AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:17:17 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:27:32 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?
> > > > > Possibly related -- definitely amusing!
> > > > >
> > > > > <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/>
> > > > When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed.
> > > I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too?
> > But they don't give out free gas at Primm. Until the up-coming Pilot EVSE is ready, I have to carry 3.5 ocean spray bottles of ventilator batteries (14 total) in a luggage. Ocean spray is the best (not necessary the juice) because it is more uniform at the top. Others are narrow at the top. Each bottle holds 4 batteries perfectly. The luggage hides the blinking lights (it's not functioning as a bomb, short of).
> >
> > http://108.213.66.240/bat3.jpg
> You really need to get to a shrink. This might still be early enough to be treatable.

Why? It's a practical solution to the difficult problem.
Just need to hold-on for another year or so. EA and EvGo are building at Primm.

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 1:12:34 AM UTC-7, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 1:03:30 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 3:46:25 AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:17:17 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:27:32 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > > On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?
> > > > > > Possibly related -- definitely amusing!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/>
> > > > > When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed.
> > > > I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too?
> > > But they don't give out free gas at Primm. Until the up-coming Pilot EVSE is ready, I have to carry 3.5 ocean spray bottles of ventilator batteries (14 total) in a luggage. Ocean spray is the best (not necessary the juice) because it is more uniform at the top. Others are narrow at the top. Each bottle holds 4 batteries perfectly. The luggage hides the blinking lights (it's not functioning as a bomb, short of).
> > >
> > > http://108.213.66.240/bat3.jpg
> > You really need to get to a shrink. This might still be early enough to be treatable.
> Why? It's a practical solution to the difficult problem.
> Just need to hold-on for another year or so. EA and EvGo are building at Primm.

The battery sticks are 3S3P of Panasonics 18650B (3.4Ah, 10Wh). Each stick is 90Wh. A crate (size/weight of 4 gallon bottles) of 8x4 is around 3KWhr or 9 miles. 3 to 4 crates should cover Primm to Vegas or Primm to Baker.

The sticks were made in 2020, but never used. They are randomly tested to be 90% to 105% rated capacity. However, my original source is out; so, I am thinking of building 4S2P 16V version. The onboard BMS balances cells with 5 bars LED indicators. I would also bring that out with a 6 pins header on one end and same 12 pins on another. I would use the tabbed version of cells. So, just need a new PCB.

On 8/15/2023 8:04 AM, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/15/2023 7:33 AM, bud-- wrote:
>>>>> Typically, (all) requirements get tighter, over time as
>>>>> technologies and
>>>>> techniques become commonplace.  And, evidence accumulates as to the
>>>>> efficacy of newly established requirements.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is that old and new are allowed to coexist.  So, you
>>>>> can find
>>>>> homes with K&T wiring... *and* GFCIs on their stoves/cooktops!
>>>>
>>>> GFCIs work fine on K&T.
>>>
>>> If you reread my comment, you won't find my claiming that they *don't*!
>>> Rather, I made the point that "old and new are allowed to coexist";
>>> K&T being an example of an *old* wiring practice while GFCI's (*on
>>> stoves*,
>>> no less, not just bathroom/counters!) an example of a more modern one.
>>
>> You said "The problem is...."
>>
>> So there is no "The problem is...."
>
> Of course there's a problem.  "Old" doesn't provide the same protections
> that
> "new" does.  A house wired without an earth ground routed to all outlets is
> definitely less safe than one that has such a ground.   A house without
> GFCIs
> (which is possible as there is no requirement to retrofit) is less safe
> than a house WITH GFCIs.  Ditto AFCIs.  Smoke/CO detectors/etc.
>
>>> It is the exception, rather than the rule, that any structure will be
>>> "up to" the current Code (as defined by local AHJ) -- unless the
>>> building
>>> was very recently erected.
>>
>> There is no mechanism in the NEC to require buildings be kept up to
>> current code. Such a requirement would be stupidly expensive. Other
>> codes could have limited requirements, for instance, require 2 kitchen
>> appliance circuits in rental units.
>>
>> But not being up to current code is not a problem - there is no "The
>> problem is...."
>
> Clearly you have a bizarre idea of whether or not safety (lack of)
> presents a problem.

K&T, in your example, is easily protected with GFCIs, in your example.

I like circuits with grounds. But I survived living in a house and
duplex with K&T.

Present house was originally wired in rigid conduit and now has GFCIs
where new code requires. I would like to see actual stats on AFCIs
(stats didn't exist for the NEC). I believe a major manufacturer was
pushing AFCIs.

The NEC has some stupid provisions. The major relevant section of the
code allows a 20A (or 30A or 50A) "single" receptacle on a 15A circuit.
Same section doesn't allow some plug-in devices (amp rating) that UL
allows (an unenforceable provision).

>
>>>> They are explicitly allowed on circuits without a ground (a label is
>>>> applied to the grounded GFCI receptacle that says something like "No
>>>> ground").
>>>
>>> "GFCI Protected".  This is also present on outlets powered from
>>> GFCI breakers lest someone think they need to *add* GFCI protection
>>> to such outlets.  And, to differentiate them from outlets that may
>>> be similar (identical!) in appearance, nearby.
>>
>> GFCI protected receptacles that have no ground connection must also to
>> be labeled "No equipment ground".
>
> Which is exactly what the first sentence, above, states.  The *second*
> sentence
> *adds* that this labeling is also present on GFCI *breaker* protected
> outlets
> to differentiate them from (likely identical appearing) outlets that
> have no
> such protection.

First sentence: "GFCI Protected". That is not "exactly" the same as "No
equipment ground".

>
>
>>>> GFCIs can also protect downstream 2-wire circuits which I believe
>>>> can have grounded receptacles (with the label).
>>>>
>>>>> And, there's no easy way for someone to ascertain all of the things
>>>>> that
>>>>> aren't up to *current* Code without an inspection and *detailed*
>>>>> knowledge of the current Code.
>>>>
>>>> People actually survived under previous codes. Safety is relative.
>>>> AFCIs were
>>>
>>> And people were able to drive cars before seat belts, air bags, ABS,
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> One can also drink water from a stream and not be *guaranteed* to
>>> take ill!  :>
>>
>> There is no "The problem is...."
>
> And there's no problem with cars not having seatbelts, or medications
> requiring
> FDA approval.
>
>>>> adopted without demonstration they improved safety. (Code change
>>>> proposals are
>>>
>>> AFCIs address fires, not electrocution.
>>
>> AFCIs address safety, including fire  The NEC is about safety. It is
>> published by the NFPA - National Fire Protection Assn.
>
> AFCIs address fires, not electrocution.  You seem to have a problem with
> reading comprehension.
>
> You've already made it clear that safety isn't important to you...
> ("Not a problem")
>
>>>> commonly rejected because the proposal lacks "substantiation".)
>>>>
>>>>> E.g., GFCIs often fail in a manner that allows the circuit to remain
>>>>> powered but unprotected (!).  As this has become apparent, the (UL)
>>>>> requirements for GFCIs have been tightened in an effort to make
>>>>> such unsafe conditions visible to the user.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, there are multiple ways that a conforming device can do this,
>>>>> each with different degrees of "inconvenience" to the user (the most
>>>>> inconvenient typically being the one that provides the greatest
>>>>> protection!).
>>>>>
>>>>> And, different implementations can be exempted from some of these
>>>>> requirements.  E.g., if the trip solenoid is open-circuited, a GFCI
>>>>> *receptacle* must handle this fault either by:
>>>>> - denying power to the receptacle regardless of user's attempt to
>>>>> reset
>>>>> - denying power but allowing the user to reset (until next test)
>>>>> - a visual/audible indication
>>>>> (So, you don't have a consistent manner of handling the fault from
>>>>> one device to another!)
>>>>>
>>>>> *BUT*, a GFCI *breaker* powering that circuit need not even *detect*
>>>>> such a fault!  This because of the way GFCI breakers were designed
>>>>> at the time the requirement was put into place.
>>>>>
>>>>> The same requirement (and exception!) applies to a fault in the
>>>>> semiconductor that controls the trip solenoid.
>>>>
>>>> I don't remember seeing a GFCI that didn't protect (except if wired
>>>> line-load reversed - and that problems has been pretty well
>>>> eliminated. If reverse wired the GFCI now can't be reset, and the
>>>> GFCI comes tripped.)
>>>>
>>>> I have found GFCIs that wouldn't reset - seems to be the failure mode.
>>>
>>> "Not seeing them" isn't proof that they don't exist.  And, apparently
>>> a high percentage!
>>>
>>> <http://www.neca-neis.org/ccl/newsletter/reportde06.html?articleID=814>
>>>
>>> This prompted UL to add test features to their requirements that
>>> alert the user to this lack of protection (alternatively allowing
>>> the manufacturer to deny power to the protected circuit).
>>
>> The link is from 2000.
>
> And, as YOU have stated, there is no requirement to retrofit kit!
> So, any home with such a device in it would INCREASINGLY fall into
> that statistical summary.

Where are the pictures of dead bodies. They are very effective in
getting code changes.

>
>> "Underwriters Laboratories requires that GFCIs be tested monthly". Has
>> been with every GFCI package I have seen.
>
> And EVERYONE tests them, right?  <rolls eyes>

Don't know about you.
I test them if there is a remote possibility of useful protection -
mostly working in the yard.

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 1:03:30 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 3:46:25 AM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:17:17 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:27:32 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:32:05 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > On 8/6/2023 7:51 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > > > > I am using the portable charger on friend's house, but it's tripping the GFCI circuit. How is that possible if the vehicle is isolated from the ground with four rubber tires?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The 15A power extension is fine. I have used this charger on another house before. Is the GFCI outlet too sensitive?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyway to deal with this? Temporary bypassing the GFCI outlet?
> > > > > Possibly related -- definitely amusing!
> > > > >
> > > > > <https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/06/is-it-okay-to-charge-your-tesla-with-an-extension-cord/>
> > > > When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed.
> > > I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too?
> > But they don't give out free gas at Primm. Until the up-coming Pilot EVSE is ready, I have to carry 3.5 ocean spray bottles of ventilator batteries (14 total) in a luggage. Ocean spray is the best (not necessary the juice) because it is more uniform at the top. Others are narrow at the top. Each bottle holds 4 batteries perfectly. The luggage hides the blinking lights (it's not functioning as a bomb, short of).
> >
> > http://108.213.66.240/bat3.jpg

> You really need to get to a shrink. This might still be early enough to be treatable.

Just heard about a shrink doctor checking himself in a mental hospital for a short time (he assumed). A few years later, he sued the hospital for with-holding drugs and made him worst. Would have been better if he prescribed drugs for himself.

Anyway, good deal for $99 generator. Waiting for one by Fed-Ex snail mail. Might get couple more later. I need 2 and 5/16 generators for 384V.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195276204795