This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
1 might be.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234

It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
endlessly about it.

The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.

On this connector,

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730

neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
on the parts. It matters.

On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 10:44:21 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
> 1 might be.
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>
> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
> endlessly about it.
>
> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
>
>
> On this connector,
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
>
> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
> on the parts. It matters.

I was using a 20 pin, break-off right angle header once, the kind with 0.1" spaced, 0.025" square posts. Other than the right angle bend, there would be no way to tell which pin was 1. It didn't even occur to me to check the data sheet to see where they expected pin 1 to be.

So, of course, when they started making the boards, they contacted me to tell me the documentation I provided was wrong, having the connector being bent over the board, rather than over the edge. I tried to explain to them that pin 1 is which ever pin I define it as, but they insisted they had to go by the data sheet. I forget what I had to do, but I finally got them to just install the connectors the *obvious* right way and get on with it. I may have had to write an ECN on the connector data sheet or something similar.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 2023-08-23 22:43, John Larkin wrote:>
> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
> 1 might be.
>
>
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>
> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
> endlessly about it.
>
> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
>
>
> On this connector,
>
>
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
>
>
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
>
> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
> on the parts. It matters.
>
>
On Monday, we received two batches of test chips in QFN-64 packages.
The pins are numbered clockwise from what is normally Pin 64. :(

It wasn't an accident--apparently it's an internal convention of the
chip design house. It would make perfect sense if they were selling
vacuum tubes.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 00:16:15 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 2023-08-23 22:43, John Larkin wrote:>
> > This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
> > european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
> > 1 might be.
> >
> >
>https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
> >
> > It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
> > endlessly about it.
> >
> > The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
> >
> >
> > On this connector,
> >
> >
>https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
> >
> >
>https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
> >
> > neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
> > on the parts. It matters.
> >
> >
>On Monday, we received two batches of test chips in QFN-64 packages.
>The pins are numbered clockwise from what is normally Pin 64. :(
>
>It wasn't an accident--apparently it's an internal convention of the
>chip design house. It would make perfect sense if they were selling
>vacuum tubes.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

At least tubes had keys. You can load an IC wrong two or four ways.
Why are so many things symmetric?

On 24/08/2023 03:43, John Larkin wrote:
>
> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
> 1 might be.
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>
> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
> endlessly about it.
>
> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
>
>
> On this connector,
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
>
> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
> on the parts. It matters.
>
>
I read the data sheet as showing a rectangular indent in the centre of
the bottom. Looking at the bottom, if that's in landscape mode and
there are pins at roughly 11 and 1 o'clock, then pin 1 is at roughly 8
o'clock.

--
Cheers
Clive

On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
>
> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
> 1 might be.
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234

I must be reading the drawing for the "Horizontal 3 Line Choke" on page
4 wrong then. The upper-left picture shows what appears to be an
inverted triangle of registration pips in the plastic (the apex is at
the "6 o'clock" position, in between pins 5 and 6). Pin 1 is the next
pin clockwise (roughly between 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock).

Likewise, the 4-pin one has the apex of those registration pips between
pins 1 and 2.

The vertical ones look entirely symmetrical though, so figuring out
which corner (from the bottom) is the correct "upper left" is probably
more difficult...

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 09:48:26 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
wrote:

>On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
>> 1 might be.
>>
>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>
>I must be reading the drawing for the "Horizontal 3 Line Choke" on page
>4 wrong then.

Well, it is wrong. It's impossible to wind as shown.

>The upper-left picture shows what appears to be an
>inverted triangle of registration pips in the plastic (the apex is at
>the "6 o'clock" position, in between pins 5 and 6). Pin 1 is the next
>pin clockwise (roughly between 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock).
>
>Likewise, the 4-pin one has the apex of those registration pips between
>pins 1 and 2.
>
>The vertical ones look entirely symmetrical though, so figuring out
>which corner (from the bottom) is the correct "upper left" is probably
>more difficult...

People handling real parts, the 3-phase version, can see no way to
find pin 1. It's entirely 3-way rotational symmetric.

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 6:29:20 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 09:48:26 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <d...@djph.net>
> wrote:
> >On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
> >>
> >> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
> >> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
> >> 1 might be.
> >>
> >> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
> >
> >I must be reading the drawing for the "Horizontal 3 Line Choke" on page
> >4 wrong then.
> Well, it is wrong. It's impossible to wind as shown.
> >The upper-left picture shows what appears to be an
> >inverted triangle of registration pips in the plastic (the apex is at
> >the "6 o'clock" position, in between pins 5 and 6). Pin 1 is the next
> >pin clockwise (roughly between 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock).
> >
> >Likewise, the 4-pin one has the apex of those registration pips between
> >pins 1 and 2.
> >
> >The vertical ones look entirely symmetrical though, so figuring out
> >which corner (from the bottom) is the correct "upper left" is probably
> >more difficult...
> People handling real parts, the 3-phase version, can see no way to
> find pin 1. It's entirely 3-way rotational symmetric.

That is not correct. There appears to be a rectangular slot that creates a two way symmetric reference line. Combine that with the 3 way symmetry of the coils and separators, and there is only one orientation that will put all axes in the correct alignment. Also, the leads on the part only allow three rotations, of which only one orients the rectangular cut out correctly.

Where's the problem?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 09:48:26 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
>>>
>>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
>>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
>>> 1 might be.
>>>
>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>>
>>I must be reading the drawing for the "Horizontal 3 Line Choke" on page
>>4 wrong then.
>
> Well, it is wrong. It's impossible to wind as shown.

Yeah, the stylized wire wrap is wrong (one end has to come from between
the core and the base plate). But I wasn't talking about those views,
but rather the full bottom view in the upper left (with the dimensions /
pin arc spacing / etc).

> People handling real parts, the 3-phase version, can see no way to
> find pin 1. It's entirely 3-way rotational symmetric.

So the features shown on the "bottom view" don't actually exist?

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:44:21 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
> 1 might be.
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>
> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
> endlessly about it.
>
> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
>
>
> On this connector,
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
>
> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
> on the parts. It matters.

Actually, it doesn't. these. These are just common modes chokes on a single core with two or three coils of equal inductance, and they are all wound in the same sense. It doesn't make any difference which way around you mount them, as anybody who understood inductors would know. Explaining this to people who don't understand inductors gets tedious, which is presumably what John Larkin is bitching about.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 12:14:52 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
wrote:

>On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 09:48:26 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
>>>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
>>>> 1 might be.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>>>
>>>I must be reading the drawing for the "Horizontal 3 Line Choke" on page
>>>4 wrong then.
>>
>> Well, it is wrong. It's impossible to wind as shown.
>
>
>Yeah, the stylized wire wrap is wrong (one end has to come from between
>the core and the base plate). But I wasn't talking about those views,
>but rather the full bottom view in the upper left (with the dimensions /
>pin arc spacing / etc).
>
>> People handling real parts, the 3-phase version, can see no way to
>> find pin 1. It's entirely 3-way rotational symmetric.
>
>So the features shown on the "bottom view" don't actually exist?

The only non-3-way-symmetric feature on the ottom is the part number
sticker. It's not useful for production people to find pin 1.

On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 12:14:52 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 09:48:26 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
>>>>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
>>>>> 1 might be.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>>>>
>>>>I must be reading the drawing for the "Horizontal 3 Line Choke" on page
>>>>4 wrong then.
>>>
>>> Well, it is wrong. It's impossible to wind as shown.
>>
>>
>>Yeah, the stylized wire wrap is wrong (one end has to come from between
>>the core and the base plate). But I wasn't talking about those views,
>>but rather the full bottom view in the upper left (with the dimensions /
>>pin arc spacing / etc).
>>
>>> People handling real parts, the 3-phase version, can see no way to
>>> find pin 1. It's entirely 3-way rotational symmetric.
>>
>>So the features shown on the "bottom view" don't actually exist?
>
> The only non-3-way-symmetric feature on the ottom is the part number
> sticker. It's not useful for production people to find pin 1.
>

Oh, the rectangle in the drawing is the sticker then? I misinterpreted
it as a hole for that central pillar to be snapped into ... :/

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:48:48 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:44:21?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
>> 1 might be.
>>
>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>>
>> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
>> endlessly about it.
>>
>> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
>>
>>
>> On this connector,
>>
>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
>>
>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
>>
>> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
>> on the parts. It matters.
>
>Actually, it doesn't. these. These are just common modes chokes on a single core with two or three coils of equal inductance, and they are all wound in the same sense. It doesn't make any difference which way around you mount them, as anybody who understood inductors would know. Explaining this to people who don't understand inductors gets tedious, which is presumably what John Larkin is bitching about.

They're supposed to be idiot-proof, but with EMC, physical
placement of starts and finishes on the physical body
can have unexpected benefits/pitfalls.

There are only a rare few EMC choke designs that are suitable
for automated fab, so you're often at the mercy of visual
inspection of manual windings, for 'internal' lead dressing
or winding direction, though phasing may be accurate and
measurable leakage terms by the book.

RL

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 11:55:35 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:48:48 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:44:21?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
>>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
>>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
>>> 1 might be.
>>>
>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
>>> endlessly about it.
>>>
>>> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
>>>
>>>
>>> On this connector,
>>>
>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
>>>
>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
>>>
>>> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
>>> on the parts. It matters.
>>
>>Actually, it doesn't. these. These are just common modes chokes on a single core with two or three coils of equal inductance, and they are all wound in the same sense. It doesn't make any difference which way around you mount them, as anybody who understood inductors would know. Explaining this to people who don't understand inductors gets tedious, which is presumably what John Larkin is bitching about.
>
>They're supposed to be idiot-proof, but with EMC, physical
>placement of starts and finishes on the physical body
>can have unexpected benefits/pitfalls.

The CM choke works at any rotation, as I noted and Sloman ignored. The
only problem is not getting pestered by production and QC, namely
"where is pin 1?" We'll have to note in the production documentation
IT DOESN'T MATTER. We deliberately didn't include a pin1 dot on the
PCB silk.

Sloman is never pestered by production or QC. His only mission is life
is to tell everyone else how stupid they are.

>
>There are only a rare few EMC choke designs that are suitable
>for automated fab, so you're often at the mercy of visual
>inspection of manual windings, for 'internal' lead dressing
>or winding direction, though phasing may be accurate and
>measurable leakage terms by the book.
>
>RL

The leakage inductance is tiny on that choke, like 15uH on one winding
with the other two shorted. CM chokes tend to use very hi-mu core
material, which means they saturate at very low levels of non-balanced
current. One can be fooled by distributor searches into thinking these
are really good multi-winding conventional inductors.

I guess they might be good transformers. Hey, maybe I can use a cool
Coilcraft planar transformer instead of that monster.

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 09:32:25 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 11:55:35 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:48:48 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
>><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:44:21?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
>>>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
>>>> 1 might be.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
>>>> endlessly about it.
>>>>
>>>> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On this connector,
>>>>
>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
>>>>
>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
>>>>
>>>> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
>>>> on the parts. It matters.
>>>
>>>Actually, it doesn't. these. These are just common modes chokes on a single core with two or three coils of equal inductance, and they are all wound in the same sense. It doesn't make any difference which way around you mount them, as anybody who understood inductors would know. Explaining this to people who don't understand inductors gets tedious, which is presumably what John Larkin is bitching about.
>>
>>They're supposed to be idiot-proof, but with EMC, physical
>>placement of starts and finishes on the physical body
>>can have unexpected benefits/pitfalls.
>
>The CM choke works at any rotation, as I noted and Sloman ignored. The
>only problem is not getting pestered by production and QC, namely
>"where is pin 1?" We'll have to note in the production documentation
>IT DOESN'T MATTER. We deliberately didn't include a pin1 dot on the
>PCB silk.
>
>Sloman is never pestered by production or QC. His only mission is life
>is to tell everyone else how stupid they are.
>
>
>>
>>There are only a rare few EMC choke designs that are suitable
>>for automated fab, so you're often at the mercy of visual
>>inspection of manual windings, for 'internal' lead dressing
>>or winding direction, though phasing may be accurate and
>>measurable leakage terms by the book.
>>
>>RL
>
>The leakage inductance is tiny on that choke, like 15uH on one winding
>with the other two shorted. CM chokes tend to use very hi-mu core
>material, which means they saturate at very low levels of non-balanced
>current. One can be fooled by distributor searches into thinking these
>are really good multi-winding conventional inductors.
>
>I guess they might be good transformers. Hey, maybe I can use a cool
>Coilcraft planar transformer instead of that monster.

No joy. The Coilcrafts are microhenries and I want millihenries.

The issue was a 6-amp-RMS several-KHz ground loop between two
three-phase instruments. The dreadful CM choke mostly fixes that.

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:46:42 AM UTC-4, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 12:14:52 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <d...@djph.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 09:48:26 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <d...@djph.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>On 2023-08-24, John Larkin wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
> >>>>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
> >>>>> 1 might be.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
> >>>>
> >>>>I must be reading the drawing for the "Horizontal 3 Line Choke" on page
> >>>>4 wrong then.
> >>>
> >>> Well, it is wrong. It's impossible to wind as shown.
> >>
> >>
> >>Yeah, the stylized wire wrap is wrong (one end has to come from between
> >>the core and the base plate). But I wasn't talking about those views,
> >>but rather the full bottom view in the upper left (with the dimensions /
> >>pin arc spacing / etc).
> >>
> >>> People handling real parts, the 3-phase version, can see no way to
> >>> find pin 1. It's entirely 3-way rotational symmetric.
> >>
> >>So the features shown on the "bottom view" don't actually exist?
> >
> > The only non-3-way-symmetric feature on the ottom is the part number
> > sticker. It's not useful for production people to find pin 1.
> >
> Oh, the rectangle in the drawing is the sticker then? I misinterpreted
> it as a hole for that central pillar to be snapped into ... :/

If that is a label, the drawing is dorked. If you zoom in on the orthogonal view of the bottom, the "label" would seem to be a depression. Maybe they put the label in a slot?

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 2:32:48 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 11:55:35 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:48:48 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
> ><bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
> >
> >>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:44:21?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> >>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
> >>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
> >>> 1 might be.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
> >>>
> >>> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
> >>> endlessly about it.
> >>>
> >>> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On this connector,
> >>>
> >>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
> >>>
> >>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
> >>>
> >>> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
> >>> on the parts. It matters.
> >>
> >>Actually, it doesn't. these. These are just common modes chokes on a single core with two or three coils of equal inductance, and they are all wound in the same sense. It doesn't make any difference which way around you mount them, as anybody who understood inductors would know. Explaining this to people who don't understand inductors gets tedious, which is presumably what John Larkin is bitching about.
> >
> >They're supposed to be idiot-proof, but with EMC, physical
> >placement of starts and finishes on the physical body
> >can have unexpected benefits/pitfalls.
>
> The CM choke works at any rotation, as I noted and Sloman ignored.

Scarcely. That was what my post was about.

> The only problem is not getting pestered by production and QC, namely "where is pin 1?"

I did say that this was what you were bitching about.

> We'll have to note in the production documentation IT DOESN'T MATTER.

So why didn't you just do that rather than bitching about it here.

> We deliberately didn't include a pin1 dot on the PCB silk.

Congratulations.

> Sloman is never pestered by production or QC.

Not recently. It used to be a big part of my life. They didn't exactly pester me - they sought help and I could be relied to deliver it, not always quite ad fast as they would have liked because I frequently had other things to do, but pretty quickly.

> His only mission is life is to tell everyone else how stupid they are.

Well, I see it as more as pointing out when people have got stuff wrong. You don't have to be stupid to do that but you do feel stupid when it is pointed out, though usually relieved.
Nobody gets everything right, though some do pretty well.

> >There are only a rare few EMC choke designs that are suitable for automated fab, so you're often at the mercy of visual inspection of manual windings, for 'internal' lead dressing or winding direction, though phasing may be accurate and measurable leakage terms by the book.
> >
> The leakage inductance is tiny on that choke, like 15uH on one winding with the other two shorted.

That isn't "the leakage inductance" though it can get pretty close. You are relying on the currents induced in the other two winding to cancel the mutual inductance, and their winding resistance limits those currents. You can characterise the parts more accurately if you try harder.

> CM chokes tend to use very hi-mu core material, which means they saturate at very low levels of non-balanced current. One can be fooled by distributor searches into thinking these
are really good multi-winding conventional inductors.
>
> I guess they might be good transformers. Hey, maybe I can use a cool Coilcraft planar transformer instead of that monster.

If it has got enough inductance. Big high-permeability cores deliver a lot of that.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 2023-08-24, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>
> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
> 1 might be.
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>
> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
> endlessly about it.

yeah... I can't think of a cure for that.

Do you get the same grief for non-polar capacitors?

> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
>
>
> On this connector,
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
>
> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
> on the parts. It matters.

They have a better datasheet on their website.

https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-nz/products/pcb-header-mstba-25-5-g-508-lr-1809102
(see page 7)

--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 09:32:25 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 11:55:35 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:48:48 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
>><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:44:21?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
>>>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
>>>> 1 might be.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
>>>> endlessly about it.
>>>>
>>>> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On this connector,
>>>>
>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
>>>>
>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
>>>>
>>>> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
>>>> on the parts. It matters.
>>>
>>>Actually, it doesn't. these. These are just common modes chokes on a single core with two or three coils of equal inductance, and they are all wound in the same sense. It doesn't make any difference which way around you mount them, as anybody who understood inductors would know. Explaining this to people who don't understand inductors gets tedious, which is presumably what John Larkin is bitching about.
>>
>>They're supposed to be idiot-proof, but with EMC, physical
>>placement of starts and finishes on the physical body
>>can have unexpected benefits/pitfalls.
>
>The CM choke works at any rotation, as I noted and Sloman ignored. The
>only problem is not getting pestered by production and QC, namely
>"where is pin 1?" We'll have to note in the production documentation
>IT DOESN'T MATTER. We deliberately didn't include a pin1 dot on the
>PCB silk.
>
>Sloman is never pestered by production or QC. His only mission is life
>is to tell everyone else how stupid they are.
>
>
>>
>>There are only a rare few EMC choke designs that are suitable
>>for automated fab, so you're often at the mercy of visual
>>inspection of manual windings, for 'internal' lead dressing
>>or winding direction, though phasing may be accurate and
>>measurable leakage terms by the book.
>>
>>RL
>
>The leakage inductance is tiny on that choke, like 15uH on one winding
>with the other two shorted. CM chokes tend to use very hi-mu core
>material, which means they saturate at very low levels of non-balanced
>current. One can be fooled by distributor searches into thinking these
>are really good multi-winding conventional inductors.
>
>I guess they might be good transformers. Hey, maybe I can use a cool
>Coilcraft planar transformer instead of that monster.

The 18uH leakage inductance is free and works om DM currents. It's
also the 'oick-up antenna' for nuisance local EMI re-radiation in
just the exact wrong place - in the filter hardware itself - often
justifying local physical screening in hardware $ $ $ .

This unneccessary and (in this case)totally unwarranted) sniping at
Sloman is childish.

RL

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 09:48:10 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 09:32:25 -0700, John Larkin
><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 11:55:35 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:48:48 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
>>><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:44:21?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
>>>>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
>>>>> 1 might be.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
>>>>> endlessly about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On this connector,
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
>>>>>
>>>>> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
>>>>> on the parts. It matters.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, it doesn't. these. These are just common modes chokes on a single core with two or three coils of equal inductance, and they are all wound in the same sense. It doesn't make any difference which way around you mount them, as anybody who understood inductors would know. Explaining this to people who don't understand inductors gets tedious, which is presumably what John Larkin is bitching about.
>>>
>>>They're supposed to be idiot-proof, but with EMC, physical
>>>placement of starts and finishes on the physical body
>>>can have unexpected benefits/pitfalls.
>>
>>The CM choke works at any rotation, as I noted and Sloman ignored. The
>>only problem is not getting pestered by production and QC, namely
>>"where is pin 1?" We'll have to note in the production documentation
>>IT DOESN'T MATTER. We deliberately didn't include a pin1 dot on the
>>PCB silk.
>>
>>Sloman is never pestered by production or QC. His only mission is life
>>is to tell everyone else how stupid they are.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>There are only a rare few EMC choke designs that are suitable
>>>for automated fab, so you're often at the mercy of visual
>>>inspection of manual windings, for 'internal' lead dressing
>>>or winding direction, though phasing may be accurate and
>>>measurable leakage terms by the book.
>>>
>>>RL
>>
>>The leakage inductance is tiny on that choke, like 15uH on one winding
>>with the other two shorted. CM chokes tend to use very hi-mu core
>>material, which means they saturate at very low levels of non-balanced
>>current. One can be fooled by distributor searches into thinking these
>>are really good multi-winding conventional inductors.
>>
>>I guess they might be good transformers. Hey, maybe I can use a cool
>>Coilcraft planar transformer instead of that monster.
>
>The 18uH leakage inductance is free and works om DM currents. It's
>also the 'oick-up antenna' for nuisance local EMI re-radiation in
>just the exact wrong place - in the filter hardware itself - often
>justifying local physical screening in hardware $ $ $ .

I had three high-current ferrite beads in the design to kill fast EMI,
but took them out after I measured the leakage of the 3-leg CM choke.

A toroid isn't supposed to leak h-field, but the leakage inductance is
from field that does NOT confine itself to the core material. The
three clusters of windings will have very different and very nasty
currents; each is a sort of dipole electromagnet. The simulated
waveforms are ghastly, and I'm plugging in boards on 1.6" centers.

CM chokes are interesting, in good and bad ways.

A shield is a possibility. I should at least include some holes for
spacers. At my frequencies, a modest aluminum sheet is a good e and h
shield. Even a sheet of 1 oz copper is pretty good, so the shield
could be a PC board.

>
>This unneccessary and (in this case)totally unwarranted) sniping at
>Sloman is childish.

He managed to agree with me and call me stupid at the same time. I
usually ignore him but you've got to admire creativity at that level.

>
>RL

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 05:11:09 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts
<usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

>On 2023-08-24, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
>> 1 might be.
>>
>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>>
>> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
>> endlessly about it.
>
>yeah... I can't think of a cure for that.
>
>Do you get the same grief for non-polar capacitors?

Only if the cap is marked. Film caps used to sometimes have an
"outside foil" band but smt parts don't.

If they did, we'd put a dot on the silk.

>
>
>> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
>>
>>
>> On this connector,
>>
>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
>>
>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
>>
>> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
>> on the parts. It matters.
>
>They have a better datasheet on their website.
>
>https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-nz/products/pcb-header-mstba-25-5-g-508-lr-1809102
>(see page 7)

Horrible web site!

OK, but neither the actual part nor its mate has any hint of which end
is pin 1.

The data sheets on Digikey and Mouser seem to be auto-generated on
demand by a net-very-smart bot.

On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 12:35:35 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 09:48:10 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
> >On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 09:32:25 -0700, John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
> >>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 11:55:35 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
> >>>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:48:48 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman <bill.....@ieee.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:44:21?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

> He managed to agree with me and call me stupid at the same time. I usually ignore him but you've got to admire creativity at that level.

What I posted was

"Actually, it doesn't. These are just common modes chokes on a single core with two or three coils of equal inductance, and they are all wound in the same sense. It doesn't make any difference which way around you mount them, as anybody who understood inductors would know. Explaining this to people who don't understand inductors gets tedious, which is presumably what John Larkin is bitching about. "

That isn't calling you stupid. It may not contain the fulsome flattery you seem to think you deserve, but it does explicitly suggest that you do understand inductors, which is quite explicitly not calling you stupid. Quite a few non-stupid people don't understand inductors. Most people don't need to bother.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 09:48:10 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 09:32:25 -0700, John Larkin
><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 11:55:35 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:48:48 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
>>><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:44:21?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> This inductor data sheet numbers the six pins, we suspect using a
>>>>> european third-angle projection, but the part has no hint of where pin
>>>>> 1 might be.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schaffner-emc-inc/RT8132-8-4M8/8345234
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't matter, but our production and QC people will pester us
>>>>> endlessly about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The drawings in the data sheet are inaccurate too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On this connector,
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1809102/3439835
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1861726/9349730
>>>>>
>>>>> neither the header nor its mate suggests a pin 1, on the data sheet or
>>>>> on the parts. It matters.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, it doesn't. these. These are just common modes chokes on a single core with two or three coils of equal inductance, and they are all wound in the same sense. It doesn't make any difference which way around you mount them, as anybody who understood inductors would know. Explaining this to people who don't understand inductors gets tedious, which is presumably what John Larkin is bitching about.
>>>
>>>They're supposed to be idiot-proof, but with EMC, physical
>>>placement of starts and finishes on the physical body
>>>can have unexpected benefits/pitfalls.
>>
>>The CM choke works at any rotation, as I noted and Sloman ignored. The
>>only problem is not getting pestered by production and QC, namely
>>"where is pin 1?" We'll have to note in the production documentation
>>IT DOESN'T MATTER. We deliberately didn't include a pin1 dot on the
>>PCB silk.
>>
>>Sloman is never pestered by production or QC. His only mission is life
>>is to tell everyone else how stupid they are.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>There are only a rare few EMC choke designs that are suitable
>>>for automated fab, so you're often at the mercy of visual
>>>inspection of manual windings, for 'internal' lead dressing
>>>or winding direction, though phasing may be accurate and
>>>measurable leakage terms by the book.
>>>
>>>RL
>>
>>The leakage inductance is tiny on that choke, like 15uH on one winding
>>with the other two shorted. CM chokes tend to use very hi-mu core
>>material, which means they saturate at very low levels of non-balanced
>>current. One can be fooled by distributor searches into thinking these
>>are really good multi-winding conventional inductors.
>>
>>I guess they might be good transformers. Hey, maybe I can use a cool
>>Coilcraft planar transformer instead of that monster.
>
>The 18uH leakage inductance is free and works om DM currents. It's
>also the 'oick-up antenna' for nuisance local EMI re-radiation in
>just the exact wrong place - in the filter hardware itself - often
>justifying local physical screening in hardware $ $ $ .
>

CM chokes are specified for inductance and for max current, which
seems to be purely thermal.

People never seem to specify actual core saturation currents; looks
like they assume that the net flux is zero. They typically saturate at
a few per cent of datasheet current.

One could test the current rating without saturating a 2-wire CM
choke, but I can't think of a way to test a 3-winding choke without
saturating the core.

On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 1:54:46 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 09:48:10 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
> >On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 09:32:25 -0700, John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
> >>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 11:55:35 -0400, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
> >>>On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 06:48:48 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman <bill.....@ieee.org> wrote:
> >>>>On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:44:21?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

<snip>

> CM chokes are specified for inductance and for max current, which seems to be purely thermal.

Presumably it is the Curie temperature of the core that matters, and you can measure that in an oven - inductance will drop with rising temperature and fall away very rapidly as you get close to the Curie temperature.

> People never seem to specify actual core saturation currents; looks like they assume that the net flux is zero. They typically saturate at a few per cent of datasheet current.
>
> One could test the current rating without saturating a 2-wire CM choke, but I can't think of a way to test a 3-winding choke without saturating the core.

All you need to work out is how much heat you can get away with dissipating in the windings before you push the core above it's Curie temperature.

You will be able to dissipate more heat in all three windings before you overheat the core than you could in just two, but there won't be much in it.

It's pretty much a single solid thermally conductive lump.

Sticking a thermistor on the core through the plastic former will give you it's temperature explicitly.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> At least tubes had keys. You can load an IC wrong two or four ways.
> Why are so many things symmetric?
>
That 3 way choke doesn't look symmetrical to me in the PCB pin layout.....

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com