Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
History may well repeat itself...

On 2023/08/21 9:36 p.m., Jan Panteltje wrote:
> Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> History may well repeat itself...

These were wiped out by the humans, this has never been a mystery, just
how or why it took so long is of interest.

The land was different then, sea levels were much lower at the end of
the ice age and the folks had to keep moving as the oceans reclaimed
land as the planet warmed up. This probably distracted them from wiping
out all the big animals that were either seen as dinner or a threat.

Once the oceans were more stable or perhaps during a lull when the
waters weren't advancing, these people could then do what humans have
always done - slaughter the easier prey to feed their families.

John

On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
>History may well repeat itself...

Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.

On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> wrote:
> >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> >History may well repeat itself...
> Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.

The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > wrote:
> > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > >History may well repeat itself...
> > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.

They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.

https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > wrote:
> > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
>
> https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps

That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> >
> > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species.. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.

Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.

It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > >
> > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
>
> Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.

Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides..

> It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.

Or barbarism.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:48:39 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
> >
> > Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.
> Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides.
> > It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.
> Or barbarism.

The indigenous weren't called 'savages' for no reason.

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:56:22 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:48:39 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > > > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
> > >
> > > Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.
> > Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides.
> > > It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.
>
> > Or barbarism.
>
> The indigenous weren't called 'savages' for no reason.

The reason is obvious enough - it excused barbaric behaviour by the people stealing their territories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Emu

goes into the equivalent behavior in Australia.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:04:10 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:56:22 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:48:39 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > > > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > > > > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
> > > >
> > > > Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.
> > > Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides.
> > > > It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.
> >
> > > Or barbarism.
> >
> > The indigenous weren't called 'savages' for no reason.
> The reason is obvious enough - it excused barbaric behaviour by the people stealing their territories.

Anybody can park their butts someplace and then declare they own it. Even homeless people do that. They're better off living in a place much better organized by civilization. Just because some of them failed to adapt doesn't make it someone else's problem. The Indian situation in 15th-19th century America was no better than 1000 BC Europe.

>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Emu

A children's book? You really are revering.

Haven't they found evidence the aborigines burned that whole continent to the ground, resulting in vast swaths of wasteland?

>
> goes into the equivalent behavior in Australia.

Yeah right. They talk about this and that 'massacre' of the aborigines and the facts were less than a dozen people killed.

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 10:20:35 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:04:10 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:56:22 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:48:39 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > > > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > > > > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > > > > > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
> > > > >
> > > > > Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.
> > > > Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides.
> > > > > It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.
> > >
> > > > Or barbarism.
> > >
> > > The indigenous weren't called 'savages' for no reason.
> >
> > The reason is obvious enough - it excused barbaric behaviour by the people stealing their territories.
>
> Anybody can park their butts someplace and then declare they own it. Even homeless people do that. They're better off living in a place much better organized by civilization. Just because some of them failed to adapt doesn't make it someone else's problem. The Indian situation in 15th-19th century America was no better than 1000 BC Europe.

They parked their butts in Australia some 60,000 years ago. The point about the book is that it documents indigenous cultivation technique's observed by the first explorers and ignored by subsequent descriptions.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Emu
>
> A children's book? You really are revering.

There does seem to have been children's version - it wasn't the one I bought and was available when I bought my copy and I wasn't aware of it.
There was a certain amount of public discussion about the book when I bought it, and it was taken seriously.
> Haven't they found evidence the aborigines burned that whole continent to the ground, resulting in vast swaths of wasteland?

Aborigines do use fuel reduction burns to minimise the risk of wild-fires, and our professional fire-fighters have taken to copying their approach - they've been doing it for rather longer than we have.

> > goes into the equivalent behavior in Australia.

> Yeah right. They talk about this and that 'massacre' of the aborigines and the facts were less than a dozen people killed.

https://www.newcastle.edu.au/newsroom/featured/new-evidence-reveals-aboriginal-massacres-committed-on-extensive-scale

I don't know whose "facts" you are using. Current estimates are more than 10,000 killed in more than 400 massacres.

I grew up in Tasmania where the aboriginal population declined drastically from the start of colonisation in 1803 until the last recognised full-blooded Tasmanian aborigine had died around 1905. It was widely felt that some of them had made sure that they weren't officially recognised, and had contrived to survive.

Imported infectious diseases probably killed more of them than massacres, but messing up their food gathering would have lead to widespread starvation, and made them more vulnerable to disease.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 11:42:28 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 10:20:35 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:04:10 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:56:22 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:48:39 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > > > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > > > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > > > > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > > > > > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > > > > > > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting..
> > > > > Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides.
> > > > > > It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.
> > > >
> > > > > Or barbarism.
> > > >
> > > > The indigenous weren't called 'savages' for no reason.
> > >
> > > The reason is obvious enough - it excused barbaric behaviour by the people stealing their territories.
> >
> > Anybody can park their butts someplace and then declare they own it. Even homeless people do that. They're better off living in a place much better organized by civilization. Just because some of them failed to adapt doesn't make it someone else's problem. The Indian situation in 15th-19th century America was no better than 1000 BC Europe.
> They parked their butts in Australia some 60,000 years ago. The point about the book is that it documents indigenous cultivation technique's observed by the first explorers and ignored by subsequent descriptions.
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Emu
> >
> > A children's book? You really are revering.
> There does seem to have been children's version - it wasn't the one I bought and was available when I bought my copy and I wasn't aware of it.
> There was a certain amount of public discussion about the book when I bought it, and it was taken seriously.
> > Haven't they found evidence the aborigines burned that whole continent to the ground, resulting in vast swaths of wasteland?
> Aborigines do use fuel reduction burns to minimise the risk of wild-fires, and our professional fire-fighters have taken to copying their approach - they've been doing it for rather longer than we have.
> > > goes into the equivalent behavior in Australia.
>
> > Yeah right. They talk about this and that 'massacre' of the aborigines and the facts were less than a dozen people killed.
> https://www.newcastle.edu.au/newsroom/featured/new-evidence-reveals-aboriginal-massacres-committed-on-extensive-scale
>
> I don't know whose "facts" you are using. Current estimates are more than 10,000 killed in more than 400 massacres.

That woman has an agenda.

>
> I grew up in Tasmania where the aboriginal population declined drastically from the start of colonisation in 1803 until the last recognised full-blooded Tasmanian aborigine had died around 1905. It was widely felt that some of them had made sure that they weren't officially recognised, and had contrived to survive.
>
> Imported infectious diseases probably killed more of them than massacres, but messing up their food gathering would have lead to widespread starvation, and made them more vulnerable to disease.
>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 3:00:03 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 11:42:28 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 10:20:35 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:04:10 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:56:22 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:48:39 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al....@comet.invalid>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > > > > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > > > > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > > > > > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > > > > > > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > > > > > > > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.
> > > > > > Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides.
> > > > > > > It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Or barbarism.
> > > > >
> > > > > The indigenous weren't called 'savages' for no reason.
> > > >
> > > > The reason is obvious enough - it excused barbaric behaviour by the people stealing their territories.
> > >
> > > Anybody can park their butts someplace and then declare they own it. Even homeless people do that. They're better off living in a place much better organized by civilization. Just because some of them failed to adapt doesn't make it someone else's problem. The Indian situation in 15th-19th century America was no better than 1000 BC Europe.
> > They parked their butts in Australia some 60,000 years ago. The point about the book is that it documents indigenous cultivation technique's observed by the first explorers and ignored by subsequent descriptions.
> > > >
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Emu
> > >
> > > A children's book? You really are revering.
> > There does seem to have been children's version - it wasn't the one I bought and was available when I bought my copy and I wasn't aware of it.
> > There was a certain amount of public discussion about the book when I bought it, and it was taken seriously.
> > > Haven't they found evidence the aborigines burned that whole continent to the ground, resulting in vast swaths of wasteland?
> > Aborigines do use fuel reduction burns to minimise the risk of wild-fires, and our professional fire-fighters have taken to copying their approach - they've been doing it for rather longer than we have.
> > > > goes into the equivalent behavior in Australia.
> >
> > > Yeah right. They talk about this and that 'massacre' of the aborigines and the facts were less than a dozen people killed.
> > https://www.newcastle.edu.au/newsroom/featured/new-evidence-reveals-aboriginal-massacres-committed-on-extensive-scale
> >
> > I don't know whose "facts" you are using. Current estimates are more than 10,000 killed in more than 400 massacres.
> That woman has an agenda.

And you don't? The people who look at that period of Australian history do get reliably horrified by what went on. My youngest brother studied medicine and got involved in Aboriginal health after he graduated, and isn't all that impressed by the health care they get now (though he does what he can for his patients). Their life expectancies are about a decade shorter than the population average.

https://www.indigenoushpf.gov.au/report-overview/overview/summary-report/4-tier-1-%E2%80%93-health-status-and-outcomes/life-expectancy

> > I grew up in Tasmania where the aboriginal population declined drastically from the start of colonisation in 1803 until the last recognised full-blooded Tasmanian aborigine had died around 1905. It was widely felt that some of them had made sure that they weren't officially recognised, and had contrived to survive.
> >
> > Imported infectious diseases probably killed more of them than massacres, but messing up their food gathering would have lead to widespread starvation, and made them more vulnerable to disease.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 1:25:48 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 3:00:03 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 11:42:28 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 10:20:35 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:04:10 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:56:22 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:48:39 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al....@comet.invalid>
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > > > > > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > > > > > > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > > > > > > > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > > > > > > > > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.
> > > > > > > Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides.
> > > > > > > > It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Or barbarism.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The indigenous weren't called 'savages' for no reason.
> > > > >
> > > > > The reason is obvious enough - it excused barbaric behaviour by the people stealing their territories.
> > > >
> > > > Anybody can park their butts someplace and then declare they own it.. Even homeless people do that. They're better off living in a place much better organized by civilization. Just because some of them failed to adapt doesn't make it someone else's problem. The Indian situation in 15th-19th century America was no better than 1000 BC Europe.
> > > They parked their butts in Australia some 60,000 years ago. The point about the book is that it documents indigenous cultivation technique's observed by the first explorers and ignored by subsequent descriptions.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Emu
> > > >
> > > > A children's book? You really are revering.
> > > There does seem to have been children's version - it wasn't the one I bought and was available when I bought my copy and I wasn't aware of it.
> > > There was a certain amount of public discussion about the book when I bought it, and it was taken seriously.
> > > > Haven't they found evidence the aborigines burned that whole continent to the ground, resulting in vast swaths of wasteland?
> > > Aborigines do use fuel reduction burns to minimise the risk of wild-fires, and our professional fire-fighters have taken to copying their approach - they've been doing it for rather longer than we have.
> > > > > goes into the equivalent behavior in Australia.
> > >
> > > > Yeah right. They talk about this and that 'massacre' of the aborigines and the facts were less than a dozen people killed.
> > > https://www.newcastle.edu.au/newsroom/featured/new-evidence-reveals-aboriginal-massacres-committed-on-extensive-scale
> > >
> > > I don't know whose "facts" you are using. Current estimates are more than 10,000 killed in more than 400 massacres.
> > That woman has an agenda.
> And you don't? The people who look at that period of Australian history do get reliably horrified by what went on. My youngest brother studied medicine and got involved in Aboriginal health after he graduated, and isn't all that impressed by the health care they get now (though he does what he can for his patients). Their life expectancies are about a decade shorter than the population average.
>
> https://www.indigenoushpf.gov.au/report-overview/overview/summary-report/4-tier-1-%E2%80%93-health-status-and-outcomes/life-expectancy
> > > I grew up in Tasmania where the aboriginal population declined drastically from the start of colonisation in 1803 until the last recognised full-blooded Tasmanian aborigine had died around 1905. It was widely felt that some of them had made sure that they weren't officially recognised, and had contrived to survive.
> > >
> > > Imported infectious diseases probably killed more of them than massacres, but messing up their food gathering would have lead to widespread starvation, and made them more vulnerable to disease.

Aborigines die younger. CVD takes about a third of the 30-55 age group. The middle age group contributes about as much to the life expectancy shortfall as the older. Non-indigenous actually have slightly higher death rates due to CVD, but it takes an older age to catch up with and kill them.
Your life expectancy statistics are making it sound like they're deprived of health care. If they're antiestablishment then the deprivation is by choice. Are the aborigines antiestablishment?

https://www.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/5d39a104-a2d5-4ab5-900c-697ee0e5a1d8/ah16-5-8-main-contributors-indigenous-life-expectancy-gap.pdf.aspx

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 5:04:46 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 1:25:48 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 3:00:03 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 11:42:28 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 10:20:35 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:04:10 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:56:22 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:48:39 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > > > > > > > > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > > > > > > > > > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.
> > > > > > > > Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides.
> > > > > > > > > It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Or barbarism.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The indigenous weren't called 'savages' for no reason.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The reason is obvious enough - it excused barbaric behaviour by the people stealing their territories.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anybody can park their butts someplace and then declare they own it. Even homeless people do that. They're better off living in a place much better organized by civilization. Just because some of them failed to adapt doesn't make it someone else's problem. The Indian situation in 15th-19th century America was no better than 1000 BC Europe.
> > > > They parked their butts in Australia some 60,000 years ago. The point about the book is that it documents indigenous cultivation technique's observed by the first explorers and ignored by subsequent descriptions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Emu
> > > > >
> > > > > A children's book? You really are revering.
> > > > There does seem to have been children's version - it wasn't the one I bought and was available when I bought my copy and I wasn't aware of it.
> > > > There was a certain amount of public discussion about the book when I bought it, and it was taken seriously.
> > > > > Haven't they found evidence the aborigines burned that whole continent to the ground, resulting in vast swaths of wasteland?
> > > > Aborigines do use fuel reduction burns to minimise the risk of wild-fires, and our professional fire-fighters have taken to copying their approach - they've been doing it for rather longer than we have.
> > > > > > goes into the equivalent behavior in Australia.
> > > >
> > > > > Yeah right. They talk about this and that 'massacre' of the aborigines and the facts were less than a dozen people killed.
> > > > https://www.newcastle.edu.au/newsroom/featured/new-evidence-reveals-aboriginal-massacres-committed-on-extensive-scale
> > > >
> > > > I don't know whose "facts" you are using. Current estimates are more than 10,000 killed in more than 400 massacres.
> > > That woman has an agenda.
> > And you don't? The people who look at that period of Australian history do get reliably horrified by what went on. My youngest brother studied medicine and got involved in Aboriginal health after he graduated, and isn't all that impressed by the health care they get now (though he does what he can for his patients). Their life expectancies are about a decade shorter than the population average.
> >
> > https://www.indigenoushpf.gov.au/report-overview/overview/summary-report/4-tier-1-%E2%80%93-health-status-and-outcomes/life-expectancy
> >
> > > > I grew up in Tasmania where the aboriginal population declined drastically from the start of colonisation in 1803 until the last recognised full-blooded Tasmanian aborigine had died around 1905. It was widely felt that some of them had made sure that they weren't officially recognised, and had contrived to survive.
> > > >
> > > > Imported infectious diseases probably killed more of them than massacres, but messing up their food gathering would have lead to widespread starvation, and made them more vulnerable to disease.
>
> Aborigines die younger. CVD takes about a third of the 30-55 age group. The middle age group contributes about as much to the life expectancy shortfall as the older. Non-indigenous actually have slightly higher death rates due to CVD, but it takes an older age to catch up with and kill them.
>
> Your life expectancy statistics are making it sound like they're deprived of health care. If they're antiestablishment then the deprivation is by choice. Are the aborigines antiestablishment?

Not so you'd notice. They mostly ignore it.

> https://www.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/5d39a104-a2d5-4ab5-900c-697ee0e5a1d8/ah16-5-8-main-contributors-indigenous-life-expectancy-gap.pdf.aspx

Rural Australians get poorer health care than urban Australians, and poor Australians get poorer health care than rich Australians. Aboriginal Australians don't take theior docotorsas seriously as the rest of the population, and ignore their advice even more enthusiastically.

It's essentially a sociological problem, as my little brother will tell you at length if you give him half a chance. He started a Ph.D. on the subject having got himself into a place where he could get good data on the subject, but found that his data was uniquely good and needed special statistical techniques to do it justice and he got stalled on the process of getting his hands on them.

My cousin the statistician might have been able help, but he worked for CSIRO and his services weren't free,
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 1:13:36 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 5:04:46 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 1:25:48 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 3:00:03 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 11:42:28 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 10:20:35 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:04:10 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:56:22 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:48:39 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > > > > > > > > > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > > > > > > > > > > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.
> > > > > > > > > Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides.
> > > > > > > > > > It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Or barbarism.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The indigenous weren't called 'savages' for no reason.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The reason is obvious enough - it excused barbaric behaviour by the people stealing their territories.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anybody can park their butts someplace and then declare they own it. Even homeless people do that. They're better off living in a place much better organized by civilization. Just because some of them failed to adapt doesn't make it someone else's problem. The Indian situation in 15th-19th century America was no better than 1000 BC Europe.
> > > > > They parked their butts in Australia some 60,000 years ago. The point about the book is that it documents indigenous cultivation technique's observed by the first explorers and ignored by subsequent descriptions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Emu
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A children's book? You really are revering.
> > > > > There does seem to have been children's version - it wasn't the one I bought and was available when I bought my copy and I wasn't aware of it.
> > > > > There was a certain amount of public discussion about the book when I bought it, and it was taken seriously.
> > > > > > Haven't they found evidence the aborigines burned that whole continent to the ground, resulting in vast swaths of wasteland?
> > > > > Aborigines do use fuel reduction burns to minimise the risk of wild-fires, and our professional fire-fighters have taken to copying their approach - they've been doing it for rather longer than we have.
> > > > > > > goes into the equivalent behavior in Australia.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yeah right. They talk about this and that 'massacre' of the aborigines and the facts were less than a dozen people killed.
> > > > > https://www.newcastle.edu.au/newsroom/featured/new-evidence-reveals-aboriginal-massacres-committed-on-extensive-scale
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know whose "facts" you are using. Current estimates are more than 10,000 killed in more than 400 massacres.
> > > > That woman has an agenda.
> > > And you don't? The people who look at that period of Australian history do get reliably horrified by what went on. My youngest brother studied medicine and got involved in Aboriginal health after he graduated, and isn't all that impressed by the health care they get now (though he does what he can for his patients). Their life expectancies are about a decade shorter than the population average.
> > >
> > > https://www.indigenoushpf.gov.au/report-overview/overview/summary-report/4-tier-1-%E2%80%93-health-status-and-outcomes/life-expectancy
> > >
> > > > > I grew up in Tasmania where the aboriginal population declined drastically from the start of colonisation in 1803 until the last recognised full-blooded Tasmanian aborigine had died around 1905. It was widely felt that some of them had made sure that they weren't officially recognised, and had contrived to survive.
> > > > >
> > > > > Imported infectious diseases probably killed more of them than massacres, but messing up their food gathering would have lead to widespread starvation, and made them more vulnerable to disease.
> >
> > Aborigines die younger. CVD takes about a third of the 30-55 age group. The middle age group contributes about as much to the life expectancy shortfall as the older. Non-indigenous actually have slightly higher death rates due to CVD, but it takes an older age to catch up with and kill them.
> >
> > Your life expectancy statistics are making it sound like they're deprived of health care. If they're antiestablishment then the deprivation is by choice. Are the aborigines antiestablishment?
> Not so you'd notice. They mostly ignore it.
>
> > https://www.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/5d39a104-a2d5-4ab5-900c-697ee0e5a1d8/ah16-5-8-main-contributors-indigenous-life-expectancy-gap.pdf.aspx
>
> Rural Australians get poorer health care than urban Australians, and poor Australians get poorer health care than rich Australians. Aboriginal Australians don't take theior docotorsas seriously as the rest of the population, and ignore their advice even more enthusiastically.
>
> It's essentially a sociological problem, as my little brother will tell you at length if you give him half a chance. He started a Ph.D. on the subject having got himself into a place where he could get good data on the subject, but found that his data was uniquely good and needed special statistical techniques to do it justice and he got stalled on the process of getting his hands on them.

Exactly. I'm sure the NZ Maori are doubly worse than the aborigines. The aborigines are Austronesian so-called, the Maori have a Chinese genome. Insane Maori drive around with shrunken heads as hood ornaments, and have a multitude of alienation problems.

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/working-towards-maori-equality

ridiculous

>
> My cousin the statistician might have been able help, but he worked for CSIRO and his services weren't free,
>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 12:47:25 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 1:13:36 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 5:04:46 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 1:25:48 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 3:00:03 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 11:42:28 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 10:20:35 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:04:10 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:56:22 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:48:39 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > > > > > > > > > > > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.
> > > > > > > > > > Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides.
> > > > > > > > > > > It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Or barbarism.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The indigenous weren't called 'savages' for no reason.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The reason is obvious enough - it excused barbaric behaviour by the people stealing their territories.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anybody can park their butts someplace and then declare they own it. Even homeless people do that. They're better off living in a place much better organized by civilization. Just because some of them failed to adapt doesn't make it someone else's problem. The Indian situation in 15th-19th century America was no better than 1000 BC Europe.
> > > > > > They parked their butts in Australia some 60,000 years ago. The point about the book is that it documents indigenous cultivation technique's observed by the first explorers and ignored by subsequent descriptions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Emu
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A children's book? You really are revering.
> > > > > >
> > > > > There does seem to have been children's version - it wasn't the one I bought and wasn't available when I bought my copy and I wasn't aware of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > > There was a certain amount of public discussion about the book when I bought it, and it was taken seriously.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Haven't they found evidence the aborigines burned that whole continent to the ground, resulting in vast swaths of wasteland?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Aborigines do use fuel reduction burns to minimise the risk of wild-fires, and our professional fire-fighters have taken to copying their approach - they've been doing it for rather longer than we have.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > goes into the equivalent behavior in Australia.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yeah right. They talk about this and that 'massacre' of the aborigines and the facts were less than a dozen people killed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.newcastle.edu.au/newsroom/featured/new-evidence-reveals-aboriginal-massacres-committed-on-extensive-scale
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know whose "facts" you are using. Current estimates are more than 10,000 killed in more than 400 massacres.
> > > > >
> > > > > That woman has an agenda.
> > > >
> > > > And you don't? The people who look at that period of Australian history do get reliably horrified by what went on. My youngest brother studied medicine and got involved in Aboriginal health after he graduated, and isn't all that impressed by the health care they get now (though he does what he can for his patients). Their life expectancies are about a decade shorter than the population average.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.indigenoushpf.gov.au/report-overview/overview/summary-report/4-tier-1-%E2%80%93-health-status-and-outcomes/life-expectancy
> > > >
> > > > > > I grew up in Tasmania where the aboriginal population declined drastically from the start of colonisation in 1803 until the last recognised full-blooded Tasmanian aborigine had died around 1905. It was widely felt that some of them had made sure that they weren't officially recognised, and had contrived to survive.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Imported infectious diseases probably killed more of them than massacres, but messing up their food gathering would have lead to widespread starvation, and made them more vulnerable to disease.
> > >
> > > Aborigines die younger. CVD takes about a third of the 30-55 age group. The middle age group contributes about as much to the life expectancy shortfall as the older. Non-indigenous actually have slightly higher death rates due to CVD, but it takes an older age to catch up with and kill them.
> > >
> > > Your life expectancy statistics are making it sound like they're deprived of health care. If they're antiestablishment then the deprivation is by choice. Are the aborigines antiestablishment?
> >
> > Not so you'd notice. They mostly ignore it.
> >
> > > https://www.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/5d39a104-a2d5-4ab5-900c-697ee0e5a1d8/ah16-5-8-main-contributors-indigenous-life-expectancy-gap.pdf.aspx
> >
> > Rural Australians get poorer health care than urban Australians, and poor Australians get poorer health care than rich Australians. Aboriginal Australians don't take their doctors as seriously as the rest of the population, and ignore their advice even more enthusiastically.
> >
> > It's essentially a sociological problem, as my little brother will tell you at length if you give him half a chance. He started a Ph.D. on the subject having got himself into a place where he could get good data on the subject, but found that his data was uniquely good and needed special statistical techniques to do it justice and he got stalled on the process of getting his hands on them.
>
> Exactly. I'm sure the NZ Maori are doubly worse than the aborigines.

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 11:23:48 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 12:47:25 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 1:13:36 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 5:04:46 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 1:25:48 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 3:00:03 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 11:42:28 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 10:20:35 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:04:10 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:56:22 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:48:39 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.
> > > > > > > > > > > Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides.
> > > > > > > > > > > > It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Or barbarism.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The indigenous weren't called 'savages' for no reason.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The reason is obvious enough - it excused barbaric behaviour by the people stealing their territories.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Anybody can park their butts someplace and then declare they own it. Even homeless people do that. They're better off living in a place much better organized by civilization. Just because some of them failed to adapt doesn't make it someone else's problem. The Indian situation in 15th-19th century America was no better than 1000 BC Europe.
> > > > > > > They parked their butts in Australia some 60,000 years ago. The point about the book is that it documents indigenous cultivation technique's observed by the first explorers and ignored by subsequent descriptions..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Emu
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A children's book? You really are revering.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > There does seem to have been children's version - it wasn't the one I bought and wasn't available when I bought my copy and I wasn't aware of it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > There was a certain amount of public discussion about the book when I bought it, and it was taken seriously.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Haven't they found evidence the aborigines burned that whole continent to the ground, resulting in vast swaths of wasteland?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Aborigines do use fuel reduction burns to minimise the risk of wild-fires, and our professional fire-fighters have taken to copying their approach - they've been doing it for rather longer than we have.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > goes into the equivalent behavior in Australia.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yeah right. They talk about this and that 'massacre' of the aborigines and the facts were less than a dozen people killed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.newcastle.edu.au/newsroom/featured/new-evidence-reveals-aboriginal-massacres-committed-on-extensive-scale
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't know whose "facts" you are using. Current estimates are more than 10,000 killed in more than 400 massacres.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That woman has an agenda.
> > > > >
> > > > > And you don't? The people who look at that period of Australian history do get reliably horrified by what went on. My youngest brother studied medicine and got involved in Aboriginal health after he graduated, and isn't all that impressed by the health care they get now (though he does what he can for his patients). Their life expectancies are about a decade shorter than the population average.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.indigenoushpf.gov.au/report-overview/overview/summary-report/4-tier-1-%E2%80%93-health-status-and-outcomes/life-expectancy
> > > > >
> > > > > > > I grew up in Tasmania where the aboriginal population declined drastically from the start of colonisation in 1803 until the last recognised full-blooded Tasmanian aborigine had died around 1905. It was widely felt that some of them had made sure that they weren't officially recognised, and had contrived to survive.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Imported infectious diseases probably killed more of them than massacres, but messing up their food gathering would have lead to widespread starvation, and made them more vulnerable to disease.
> > > >
> > > > Aborigines die younger. CVD takes about a third of the 30-55 age group. The middle age group contributes about as much to the life expectancy shortfall as the older. Non-indigenous actually have slightly higher death rates due to CVD, but it takes an older age to catch up with and kill them.
> > > >
> > > > Your life expectancy statistics are making it sound like they're deprived of health care. If they're antiestablishment then the deprivation is by choice. Are the aborigines antiestablishment?
> > >
> > > Not so you'd notice. They mostly ignore it.
> > >
> > > > https://www.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/5d39a104-a2d5-4ab5-900c-697ee0e5a1d8/ah16-5-8-main-contributors-indigenous-life-expectancy-gap.pdf.aspx
> > >
> > > Rural Australians get poorer health care than urban Australians, and poor Australians get poorer health care than rich Australians. Aboriginal Australians don't take their doctors as seriously as the rest of the population, and ignore their advice even more enthusiastically.
> > >
> > > It's essentially a sociological problem, as my little brother will tell you at length if you give him half a chance. He started a Ph.D. on the subject having got himself into a place where he could get good data on the subject, but found that his data was uniquely good and needed special statistical techniques to do it justice and he got stalled on the process of getting his hands on them.
> >
> > Exactly. I'm sure the NZ Maori are doubly worse than the aborigines.
> They aren't. The Maori were Neolithic rather than Paleolithic, and famously stole a bunch of British cannon during the colonial invasion and used them on the British with such effect that they ended up with a negotiated peace treaty. The Australian aborigines never did that well.
> > The aborigines are Austronesian so-called, the Maori have a Chinese genome. Insane Maori drive around with shrunken heads as hood ornaments, and have a multitude of alienation problems.
> But not as many as the Australian aborigines. The Polynesian languages seems to come from Taiwan.
>
> Melanesians and Australian Aboriginals get 3% to 6% of their DNA from Denisovans, which makes their genomes detectably different from Europeans. Polynesians have rather less - about 3%.

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 3:26:28 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 11:23:48 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 12:47:25 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 1:13:36 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 5:04:46 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 1:25:48 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 3:00:03 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 11:42:28 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 10:20:35 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:04:10 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 2:56:22 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:48:39 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:40:50 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 2:49:24 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 12:45:01 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 11:00:53 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:24:54 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 04:36:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Scientists zero in on timing, causes of ice age mammal extinctions in southern California
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230818004744.htm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >History may well repeat itself...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Among "the carnivores that ate them" were the native Americans.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "native Americans" weren't all that native at the time. They were a recent invasive species who had come across the Bering Straight and down through Canada, The megafauna they hunted to extinction had been there rather longer.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They didn't hunt them, they trapped them and then slaughtered them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.earthdate.org/episodes/mammoth-traps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is a hunting technique. Hunters catch, kill and consume prey species. Trapping is just one of a number of different technique to get to the end result.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Stampeding these poor dumb creatures into a trap is not hunting.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Not the kind of hunting that people glorify, but it provides food and hides.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It wasn't too long before the Euro's came on the scene and drove the indigenous types to near extinction. That's called karma.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Or barbarism.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The indigenous weren't called 'savages' for no reason..
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The reason is obvious enough - it excused barbaric behaviour by the people stealing their territories.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Anybody can park their butts someplace and then declare they own it. Even homeless people do that. They're better off living in a place much better organized by civilization. Just because some of them failed to adapt doesn't make it someone else's problem. The Indian situation in 15th-19th century America was no better than 1000 BC Europe.
> > > > > > > > They parked their butts in Australia some 60,000 years ago. The point about the book is that it documents indigenous cultivation technique's observed by the first explorers and ignored by subsequent descriptions.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Emu
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A children's book? You really are revering.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There does seem to have been children's version - it wasn't the one I bought and wasn't available when I bought my copy and I wasn't aware of it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There was a certain amount of public discussion about the book when I bought it, and it was taken seriously.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Haven't they found evidence the aborigines burned that whole continent to the ground, resulting in vast swaths of wasteland?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Aborigines do use fuel reduction burns to minimise the risk of wild-fires, and our professional fire-fighters have taken to copying their approach - they've been doing it for rather longer than we have.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > goes into the equivalent behavior in Australia.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yeah right. They talk about this and that 'massacre' of the aborigines and the facts were less than a dozen people killed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://www.newcastle.edu.au/newsroom/featured/new-evidence-reveals-aboriginal-massacres-committed-on-extensive-scale
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't know whose "facts" you are using. Current estimates are more than 10,000 killed in more than 400 massacres.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That woman has an agenda.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And you don't? The people who look at that period of Australian history do get reliably horrified by what went on. My youngest brother studied medicine and got involved in Aboriginal health after he graduated, and isn't all that impressed by the health care they get now (though he does what he can for his patients). Their life expectancies are about a decade shorter than the population average.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.indigenoushpf.gov.au/report-overview/overview/summary-report/4-tier-1-%E2%80%93-health-status-and-outcomes/life-expectancy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I grew up in Tasmania where the aboriginal population declined drastically from the start of colonisation in 1803 until the last recognised full-blooded Tasmanian aborigine had died around 1905. It was widely felt that some of them had made sure that they weren't officially recognised, and had contrived to survive.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Imported infectious diseases probably killed more of them than massacres, but messing up their food gathering would have lead to widespread starvation, and made them more vulnerable to disease.
> > > > >
> > > > > Aborigines die younger. CVD takes about a third of the 30-55 age group. The middle age group contributes about as much to the life expectancy shortfall as the older. Non-indigenous actually have slightly higher death rates due to CVD, but it takes an older age to catch up with and kill them.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your life expectancy statistics are making it sound like they're deprived of health care. If they're antiestablishment then the deprivation is by choice. Are the aborigines antiestablishment?
> > > >
> > > > Not so you'd notice. They mostly ignore it.
> > > >
> > > > > https://www.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/5d39a104-a2d5-4ab5-900c-697ee0e5a1d8/ah16-5-8-main-contributors-indigenous-life-expectancy-gap.pdf.aspx
> > > >
> > > > Rural Australians get poorer health care than urban Australians, and poor Australians get poorer health care than rich Australians. Aboriginal Australians don't take their doctors as seriously as the rest of the population, and ignore their advice even more enthusiastically.
> > > >
> > > > It's essentially a sociological problem, as my little brother will tell you at length if you give him half a chance. He started a Ph.D. on the subject having got himself into a place where he could get good data on the subject, but found that his data was uniquely good and needed special statistical techniques to do it justice and he got stalled on the process of getting his hands on them.
> > >
> > > Exactly. I'm sure the NZ Maori are doubly worse than the aborigines.
> >
> > They aren't. The Maori were Neolithic rather than Paleolithic, and famously stole a bunch of British cannon during the colonial invasion and used them on the British with such effect that they ended up with a negotiated peace treaty. The Australian aborigines never did that well.
> >
> > > The aborigines are Austronesian so-called, the Maori have a Chinese genome. Insane Maori drive around with shrunken heads as hood ornaments, and have a multitude of alienation problems.
> > But not as many as the Australian aborigines. The Polynesian languages seems to come from Taiwan.
> >
> > Melanesians and Australian Aboriginals get 3% to 6% of their DNA from Denisovans, which makes their genomes detectably different from Europeans. Polynesians have rather less - about 3%.
>
> It's been recently confirmed that the interbreeding was not bilateral. Humans could fertilize a Neanderthal egg, but Neanderthals could not fertilize a human egg.