<https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/28/phoenix-arizona-heatwave-burns-sidewalks-climate-crisis>

As I've said, I don't see how "locals" can be ignorant of the risks!

You don't leave your windshield exposed (lest the steering wheel and
seat be too hot for contact).

You don't casually grab the handle of a shopping cart left in the parking
lot of a store -- and NEVER touch the fence surrounding the cart corral
(which has been sitting in the sun all day!).

Or, the propane tanks "for exchange" out in front of the store.

You don't walk your dog any time other than early morning (because
after sundown the sidewalk is still too hot for the pads of their paws).

And, if you're homeless? Don't lie down where the sun will cook you!

[107F, today. Still a few more weeks of this...]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 14:17:54 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

><https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/28/phoenix-arizona-heatwave-burns-sidewalks-climate-crisis>
>
>As I've said, I don't see how "locals" can be ignorant of the risks!
>
>You don't leave your windshield exposed (lest the steering wheel and
>seat be too hot for contact).
>
>You don't casually grab the handle of a shopping cart left in the parking
>lot of a store -- and NEVER touch the fence surrounding the cart corral
>(which has been sitting in the sun all day!).
>
>Or, the propane tanks "for exchange" out in front of the store.
>
>You don't walk your dog any time other than early morning (because
>after sundown the sidewalk is still too hot for the pads of their paws).
>
>And, if you're homeless? Don't lie down where the sun will cook you!
>
>[107F, today. Still a few more weeks of this...]

I wonder why a city would be called Phoenix.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Phoenix-Fabelwesen.jpg

New Orleans was like that when I was a kid. Don't walk around
barefoot.

On 2023/08/28 2:17 p.m., Don Y wrote:
> <https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/28/phoenix-arizona-heatwave-burns-sidewalks-climate-crisis>
>
> As I've said, I don't see how "locals" can be ignorant of the risks!
>
> You don't leave your windshield exposed (lest the steering wheel and
> seat be too hot for contact).
>
> You don't casually grab the handle of a shopping cart left in the parking
> lot of a store -- and NEVER touch the fence surrounding the cart corral
> (which has been sitting in the sun all day!).
>
> Or, the propane tanks "for exchange" out in front of the store.
>
> You don't walk your dog any time other than early morning (because
> after sundown the sidewalk is still too hot for the pads of their paws).
>
> And, if you're homeless?  Don't lie down where the sun will cook you!
>
> [107F, today.  Still a few more weeks of this...]
>
Why are you surprised by the summer heat if you live in Phoenix?
Phoenix is part of the Sonoran desert. And thus it tends to be on the
warm side in summer.
https://www.weather-us.com/en/arizona-usa/phoenix-climate
"Phoenix, part of the Sonoran Desert, lies in the subtropical desert
climate or BWh according to the Köppen climate classification. This
environment is characterized by extremely hot summers, mild winters, and
scant rain."
https://www.extremeweatherwatch.com/cities/phoenix/average-temperature-by-year
What is interesting is the above list of years do NOT include 1935,
1936, and 1937 - which include two years of the Dirty Thirties massive
heat waves...and there are other years that were skipped. Perhaps it was
too hot/cold to read the thermometer for those missing years?
I also see that the average temperature hasn't changed much since the
80s. Which was just after Terminal three was added. Increasing air
passengers from 4.4 to 11.6 million per year.
https://www.skyharbor.com/about-phx/history-economic-development/history/
I'm sure there is no connection between the size of the airport (all
that tarmac, bare fields, warm aircraft, and parking lots/buildings) -
where the NOAA thermometers are located - and the average temperature of
Phoenix.
Now there is a new terminal...
John :-#)#

On 8/28/2023 5:28 PM, John Robertson wrote:
> On 2023/08/28 2:17 p.m., Don Y wrote:
>> <https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/28/phoenix-arizona-heatwave-burns-sidewalks-climate-crisis>
>>
>> As I've said, I don't see how "locals" can be ignorant of the risks!
>>
>> You don't leave your windshield exposed (lest the steering wheel and
>> seat be too hot for contact).
>>
>> You don't casually grab the handle of a shopping cart left in the parking
>> lot of a store -- and NEVER touch the fence surrounding the cart corral
>> (which has been sitting in the sun all day!).
>>
>> Or, the propane tanks "for exchange" out in front of the store.
>>
>> You don't walk your dog any time other than early morning (because
>> after sundown the sidewalk is still too hot for the pads of their paws).
>>
>> And, if you're homeless?  Don't lie down where the sun will cook you!
>>
>> [107F, today.  Still a few more weeks of this...]
>
> Why are you surprised by the summer heat if you live in Phoenix?

I'm not surprised by the heat; I am surprised by the folks
who *live* here who seem to forget its perils! It would
be like someone in Chicago going outdoors in short pants in
a typical February... and being surprised to get frostbite!

> Phoenix is part of the Sonoran desert. And thus it tends to be on the warm side
> in summer.
>
> https://www.weather-us.com/en/arizona-usa/phoenix-climate
>
> "Phoenix, part of the Sonoran Desert, lies in the subtropical desert climate or
> BWh according to the Köppen climate classification. This environment is
> characterized by extremely hot summers, mild winters, and scant rain."
>
> https://www.extremeweatherwatch.com/cities/phoenix/average-temperature-by-year
>
> What is interesting is the above list of years do NOT include 1935, 1936, and
> 1937 - which include two years of the Dirty Thirties massive heat waves...and
> there are other years that were skipped. Perhaps it was too hot/cold to read
> the thermometer for those missing years?
>
> I also see that the average temperature hasn't changed much since the 80s.
> Which was just after Terminal three was added. Increasing air passengers from
> 4.4 to 11.6 million per year.
>
> https://www.skyharbor.com/about-phx/history-economic-development/history/
>
> I'm sure there is no connection between the size of the airport (all that
> tarmac, bare fields, warm aircraft, and parking lots/buildings) - where the
> NOAA thermometers are located - and the average temperature of Phoenix.

Likely the cement acts to keep the temperatures relatively unchanged, in the
long run.

Most forecasters breakdown temperatures much finer. E.g., our
high (at the house) was 110F today even though the airport
recorded 109. Looking around the neighborhood's data, it
seems like we are a typical representation of the
temperature *here* (so what do we care what the airport
reported?)

> Now there is a new terminal...
>
> John :-#)#

On 2023/08/28 6:42 p.m., Don Y wrote:
> On 8/28/2023 5:28 PM, John Robertson wrote:
>> On 2023/08/28 2:17 p.m., Don Y wrote:
>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/28/phoenix-arizona-heatwave-burns-sidewalks-climate-crisis>
>>>
>>> As I've said, I don't see how "locals" can be ignorant of the risks!
>>>
>>> You don't leave your windshield exposed (lest the steering wheel and
>>> seat be too hot for contact).
>>>
>>> You don't casually grab the handle of a shopping cart left in the
>>> parking
>>> lot of a store -- and NEVER touch the fence surrounding the cart corral
>>> (which has been sitting in the sun all day!).
>>>
>>> Or, the propane tanks "for exchange" out in front of the store.
>>>
>>> You don't walk your dog any time other than early morning (because
>>> after sundown the sidewalk is still too hot for the pads of their paws).
>>>
>>> And, if you're homeless?  Don't lie down where the sun will cook you!
>>>
>>> [107F, today.  Still a few more weeks of this...]
>>
>> Why are you surprised by the summer heat if you live in Phoenix?
>
> I'm not surprised by the heat; I am surprised by the folks
> who *live* here who seem to forget its perils!  It would
> be like someone in Chicago going outdoors in short pants in
> a typical February... and being surprised to get frostbite!
>
>> Phoenix is part of the Sonoran desert. And thus it tends to be on the
>> warm side in summer.
>>
>> https://www.weather-us.com/en/arizona-usa/phoenix-climate
>>
>> "Phoenix, part of the Sonoran Desert, lies in the subtropical desert
>> climate or BWh according to the Köppen climate classification. This
>> environment is characterized by extremely hot summers, mild winters,
>> and scant rain."
>>
>> https://www.extremeweatherwatch.com/cities/phoenix/average-temperature-by-year
>>
>> What is interesting is the above list of years do NOT include 1935,
>> 1936, and 1937 - which include two years of the Dirty Thirties massive
>> heat waves...and there are other years that were skipped. Perhaps it
>> was too hot/cold to read the thermometer for those missing years?
>>
>> I also see that the average temperature hasn't changed much since the
>> 80s. Which was just after Terminal three was added. Increasing air
>> passengers from 4.4 to 11.6 million per year.
>>
>> https://www.skyharbor.com/about-phx/history-economic-development/history/
>>
>> I'm sure there is no connection between the size of the airport (all
>> that tarmac, bare fields, warm aircraft, and parking lots/buildings) -
>> where the NOAA thermometers are located - and the average temperature
>> of Phoenix.
>
> Likely the cement acts to keep the temperatures relatively unchanged, in
> the
> long run.
>
> Most forecasters breakdown temperatures much finer.  E.g., our
> high (at the house) was 110F today even though the airport
> recorded 109.  Looking around the neighborhood's data, it
> seems like we are a typical representation of the
> temperature *here* (so what do we care what the airport
> reported?)
We 'care' what the airport temperatures are recorded because those
temperatures are the ones that tend to be the 'official' temperatures of
the area. Of course the temperature at the airport can be warmer or
cooler than the metropolitan areas nearby - here in Vancouver our
airport is beside the ocean, so the temperatures recorded there are not
what is found in the city core. And the next closest airport is in
Abbotsford or Mission, BC, and again the temperatures there are
different than downtown Vancouver BC.
Heck the area I live in tends to be between 1 to 2C cooler (as measured
by my motorcycle thermometer) than other areas of Vancouver, apparently
because we have a great canopy of trees here!
On the other hand it is handy to use airport temperatures for finding
trends as they tend to be relatively careful with how they measure
temperatures as that info can make a lot of difference to pilots as it
affects the amount of lift available - hotter air has less 'lift' than
cooler air. the question is what influences the temperatures at
airports, and as such some consider that the question is - is the
developed airfield artificially warmer (or cooler) than a
grassland/woodland (or the original landscape) temperature would have been?
John :-#)#
>
>> Now there is a new terminal...
>>
>> John :-#)#
>
>

On 8/28/2023 10:17 PM, John Robertson wrote:
>>> Why are you surprised by the summer heat if you live in Phoenix?
>>
>> I'm not surprised by the heat; I am surprised by the folks
>> who *live* here who seem to forget its perils!  It would
>> be like someone in Chicago going outdoors in short pants in
>> a typical February... and being surprised to get frostbite!
>>
>>> Phoenix is part of the Sonoran desert. And thus it tends to be on the warm
>>> side in summer.
>>>
>>> https://www.weather-us.com/en/arizona-usa/phoenix-climate
>>>
>>> "Phoenix, part of the Sonoran Desert, lies in the subtropical desert climate
>>> or BWh according to the Köppen climate classification. This environment is
>>> characterized by extremely hot summers, mild winters, and scant rain."
>>>
>>> https://www.extremeweatherwatch.com/cities/phoenix/average-temperature-by-year
>>>
>>> What is interesting is the above list of years do NOT include 1935, 1936,
>>> and 1937 - which include two years of the Dirty Thirties massive heat
>>> waves...and there are other years that were skipped. Perhaps it was too
>>> hot/cold to read the thermometer for those missing years?
>>>
>>> I also see that the average temperature hasn't changed much since the 80s.
>>> Which was just after Terminal three was added. Increasing air passengers
>>> from 4.4 to 11.6 million per year.
>>>
>>> https://www.skyharbor.com/about-phx/history-economic-development/history/
>>>
>>> I'm sure there is no connection between the size of the airport (all that
>>> tarmac, bare fields, warm aircraft, and parking lots/buildings) - where the
>>> NOAA thermometers are located - and the average temperature of Phoenix.
>>
>> Likely the cement acts to keep the temperatures relatively unchanged, in the
>> long run.
>>
>> Most forecasters breakdown temperatures much finer.  E.g., our
>> high (at the house) was 110F today even though the airport
>> recorded 109.  Looking around the neighborhood's data, it
>> seems like we are a typical representation of the
>> temperature *here* (so what do we care what the airport
>> reported?)
>
> We 'care' what the airport temperatures are recorded because those temperatures
> are the ones that tend to be the 'official' temperatures of the area. Of course

They may be the ones that the gummit tracks but there are lots
of parties interested in recording "localized" temperatures that are
qualified to do so. I'd more trust the temperature recorded by
the meteorologists at the local university if I wanted to know the
temperature *there* than the "official" temperature from the airport.

No one lives at the airport. Nothing happens at the airport besides
aviation (and buying overpriced fast food).

The current temperature at the airport is 93F. The areas around it
(i.e., just outside of the area CALLED The Airport) are currently
reporting temperatures in the 87 - 90 range (depending on which side
of the airport you're on.

The majority of "town" is ~90-91. And, as you move farther out,
temperatures drop to 85-87. My thermometer reports 90 degrees;
folks south of me report 89 and north of me report 91 (so, I'll
assume my 90 is probably an accurate reflection of my location)

When you live in an area, you learn to recognize the weather
patterns associated with the different microclimates. E.g.,
the west side of town sees more precipitation and higher winds
(they don't benefit from the mountain ranges that surround
other parts of town).

OTOH, in severe storms, *we* tend to suffer from lots of
strong microbursts (as the winds come down off the mountains)
whereas the west side doesn't. Rainfall varies significantly
over relatively short distances.

People care about where THEY live (and where they might be
*going*) but tend not to notice other "weather".

Local forecasters will note these differences in their reporting
instead of lumping the whole area into whatever the forecast for
the airport might be. And, you'll quickly learn how to tweek
the forecast for your "area" to reflect your particular spot
on the map.

> the temperature at the airport can be warmer or cooler than the metropolitan
> areas nearby - here in Vancouver our airport is beside the ocean, so the
> temperatures recorded there are not what is found in the city core. And the
> next closest airport is in Abbotsford or Mission, BC, and again the
> temperatures there are different than downtown Vancouver BC.

Here, airports are typically heat sinks. Slower to warm up and slower
to cool off.

> Heck the area I live in tends to be between 1 to 2C cooler (as measured by my
> motorcycle thermometer) than other areas of Vancouver, apparently because we
> have a great canopy of trees here!

The other end of my street (1/3 mi) is a few degrees warmer in spring
than my end and cooler in summer. We can watch the same plants blossom
at successively later dates as you move down the street.

> On the other hand it is handy to use airport temperatures for finding trends as
> they tend to be relatively careful with how they measure temperatures as that
> info can make a lot of difference to pilots as it affects the amount of lift
> available - hotter air has less 'lift' than cooler air. the question is what
> influences the temperatures at airports, and as such some consider that the
> question is - is the developed airfield artificially warmer (or cooler) than a
> grassland/woodland (or the original landscape) temperature would have been?

Using airport temperatures (and wind speeds, directions, etc.) for anything
other than evaluating flying conditions is pretty silly as they don't represent
conditions anywhere other than AT the airport.

On 8/28/2023 11:09 PM, Don Y wrote:
> No one lives at the airport.  Nothing happens at the airport besides
> aviation (and buying overpriced fast food).

<https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2023/08/25/urban-heat-island-effect-drones-contd-orig-nb.cnn>

The obvious solution is for everyone to move to *rural* areas...
until those rural areas become cities (as all of the services
people require come along for the ride)! :<

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 22:17:48 -0700, John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com>
wrote:

>On 2023/08/28 6:42 p.m., Don Y wrote:
>> On 8/28/2023 5:28 PM, John Robertson wrote:
>>> On 2023/08/28 2:17 p.m., Don Y wrote:
>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/28/phoenix-arizona-heatwave-burns-sidewalks-climate-crisis>
>>>>
>>>> As I've said, I don't see how "locals" can be ignorant of the risks!
>>>>
>>>> You don't leave your windshield exposed (lest the steering wheel and
>>>> seat be too hot for contact).
>>>>
>>>> You don't casually grab the handle of a shopping cart left in the
>>>> parking
>>>> lot of a store -- and NEVER touch the fence surrounding the cart corral
>>>> (which has been sitting in the sun all day!).
>>>>
>>>> Or, the propane tanks "for exchange" out in front of the store.
>>>>
>>>> You don't walk your dog any time other than early morning (because
>>>> after sundown the sidewalk is still too hot for the pads of their paws).
>>>>
>>>> And, if you're homeless?  Don't lie down where the sun will cook you!
>>>>
>>>> [107F, today.  Still a few more weeks of this...]
>>>
>>> Why are you surprised by the summer heat if you live in Phoenix?
>>
>> I'm not surprised by the heat; I am surprised by the folks
>> who *live* here who seem to forget its perils!  It would
>> be like someone in Chicago going outdoors in short pants in
>> a typical February... and being surprised to get frostbite!
>>
>>> Phoenix is part of the Sonoran desert. And thus it tends to be on the
>>> warm side in summer.
>>>
>>> https://www.weather-us.com/en/arizona-usa/phoenix-climate
>>>
>>> "Phoenix, part of the Sonoran Desert, lies in the subtropical desert
>>> climate or BWh according to the Köppen climate classification. This
>>> environment is characterized by extremely hot summers, mild winters,
>>> and scant rain."
>>>
>>> https://www.extremeweatherwatch.com/cities/phoenix/average-temperature-by-year
>>>
>>> What is interesting is the above list of years do NOT include 1935,
>>> 1936, and 1937 - which include two years of the Dirty Thirties massive
>>> heat waves...and there are other years that were skipped. Perhaps it
>>> was too hot/cold to read the thermometer for those missing years?
>>>
>>> I also see that the average temperature hasn't changed much since the
>>> 80s. Which was just after Terminal three was added. Increasing air
>>> passengers from 4.4 to 11.6 million per year.
>>>
>>> https://www.skyharbor.com/about-phx/history-economic-development/history/
>>>
>>> I'm sure there is no connection between the size of the airport (all
>>> that tarmac, bare fields, warm aircraft, and parking lots/buildings) -
>>> where the NOAA thermometers are located - and the average temperature
>>> of Phoenix.
>>
>> Likely the cement acts to keep the temperatures relatively unchanged, in
>> the
>> long run.
>>
>> Most forecasters breakdown temperatures much finer.  E.g., our
>> high (at the house) was 110F today even though the airport
>> recorded 109.  Looking around the neighborhood's data, it
>> seems like we are a typical representation of the
>> temperature *here* (so what do we care what the airport
>> reported?)
>
>We 'care' what the airport temperatures are recorded because those
>temperatures are the ones that tend to be the 'official' temperatures of
>the area. Of course the temperature at the airport can be warmer or
>cooler than the metropolitan areas nearby - here in Vancouver our
>airport is beside the ocean, so the temperatures recorded there are not
>what is found in the city core. And the next closest airport is in
>Abbotsford or Mission, BC, and again the temperatures there are
>different than downtown Vancouver BC.
>
>Heck the area I live in tends to be between 1 to 2C cooler (as measured
>by my motorcycle thermometer) than other areas of Vancouver, apparently
>because we have a great canopy of trees here!
>
>On the other hand it is handy to use airport temperatures for finding
>trends as they tend to be relatively careful with how they measure
>temperatures as that info can make a lot of difference to pilots as it
>affects the amount of lift available - hotter air has less 'lift' than
>cooler air. the question is what influences the temperatures at
>airports, and as such some consider that the question is - is the
>developed airfield artificially warmer (or cooler) than a
>grassland/woodland (or the original landscape) temperature would have been?
>
>John :-#)#
>>
>>> Now there is a new terminal...
>>>
>>> John :-#)#
>>
>>

Both high and low record temps tend to be set at airports. In 1850, we
didn't have so many airports.