On a sunny day (Tue, 29 Aug 2023 08:04:02 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<b32sei5eom1c9ujhst3cel6vb3vutnu9kp@4ax.com>:

>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 05:12:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Aug 2023 22:03:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>><2uuqeilc6p74v1lbl3ua6q3dnhhiqvtbqi@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 04:53:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Aug 2023 08:37:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>><okfpeid3sso9q00ccdsj8pf7s5qbfsprdm@4ax.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 15:22:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>Bit more climate change, nuclear wars, taxes, mass migration will happen.
>>>>
>>>>>Be as scared and depressed as you prefer. I'd rather design
>>>>>electronics and enjoy this beautiful planet.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's crazy how life is better and safer than ever, and so many people
>>>>>are neurotic and afraid.
>>>>
>>>>Well yes, US war machine, ever more US suicides, drugs,
>>>>and I am installing or trying to install the latest Linux releases ... Slackware, Ubuntu on my laptop.
>>>
>>>No wonder you're depressed.
>>
>>I am not depressed, I am not in the US either :-)
>
>The USA is fabulous. There is so much of it, in three dimensions
>
>(I used to be a flatlander too.)
>
>>Just a realist...
>>
>
>https://xkcd.com/456/

Yea, that strip says it now does it?

I bought this Samsung laptop like 10 years ago (Core I5) and I like it
I was wise enough to have made a copy of all I did on it, I have put that back on it
and use some old code I wrote from that copy.
And added many movies...mplayer works for video and audio it seems in Ubuntu.
Today was away shopping and after that working for hours in the garden and then cooking dinner and eating it.
And that really tasted good.
Been in many places in the US, not so much in mountain areas..
Does not attract me at all..
There was in the news that the glaciers in Switzerland may be disappearing due to global heating..
Now that would kill tourism / skying to the mountains there.
Saves a lot of people from getting broken bones.. Glow ball worming is good!
As to Linux, this is posted on my Raspberry Pi4 8 GB, with totally modified user interface,
running xfm file manager and fvwm window manager with 9 desktops 8 of which carry xterms
in one I run Firefox browser, in one NewsFleX (my Usenet reader), in one xfm (so you can click on things),
in one sometimes the audio mixer
but the rest is usually xterms with code I am working on - or scripts I am running.
Easy to switch desktop from source to compile to documentation that way, all full screen.

The Pi4 is sometimes a bit.. slow... displaying a web page the core i5 is a lot faster...
Did you ever get that Raspberry thing you bought online?
The plus I have here is the Huawei 4G USB stick, stick it in the laptop anywhere in the country and I am online
stick it in the Raspberry and I am online and can hang any other PC on the LAN as this Pi4 is also configured as router.
It shows up as ethernet port in
raspberrypi: ~ # lsusb
....
Bus 001 Device 012: ID 12d1:14dc Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. E3372 LTE/UMTS/GSM HiLink Modem/Networkcard
....

And of course I use zsh as shell, not bash, zsh saves a lot of typing.
Joe as editor, in black and white mode, color in C source code I find horrible
All xterms / rxvts terminals background white text black.
just like paper.

I know a picture says a thousand words, like a comic does, but this is it in words..
Physical exercise is good, typing is one, as is gardening.

On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 16:00:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Tue, 29 Aug 2023 08:04:02 -0700) it happened John Larkin
><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
><b32sei5eom1c9ujhst3cel6vb3vutnu9kp@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 05:12:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Aug 2023 22:03:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>><2uuqeilc6p74v1lbl3ua6q3dnhhiqvtbqi@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 04:53:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Aug 2023 08:37:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>>><okfpeid3sso9q00ccdsj8pf7s5qbfsprdm@4ax.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 15:22:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>Bit more climate change, nuclear wars, taxes, mass migration will happen.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Be as scared and depressed as you prefer. I'd rather design
>>>>>>electronics and enjoy this beautiful planet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's crazy how life is better and safer than ever, and so many people
>>>>>>are neurotic and afraid.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well yes, US war machine, ever more US suicides, drugs,
>>>>>and I am installing or trying to install the latest Linux releases ... Slackware, Ubuntu on my laptop.
>>>>
>>>>No wonder you're depressed.
>>>
>>>I am not depressed, I am not in the US either :-)
>>
>>The USA is fabulous. There is so much of it, in three dimensions
>>
>>(I used to be a flatlander too.)
>>
>>>Just a realist...
>>>
>>
>>https://xkcd.com/456/
>
>Yea, that strip says it now does it?
>
>I bought this Samsung laptop like 10 years ago (Core I5) and I like it
>I was wise enough to have made a copy of all I did on it, I have put that back on it
>and use some old code I wrote from that copy.
>And added many movies...mplayer works for video and audio it seems in Ubuntu.
>Today was away shopping and after that working for hours in the garden and then cooking dinner and eating it.
>And that really tasted good.
>Been in many places in the US, not so much in mountain areas..
>Does not attract me at all..
>There was in the news that the glaciers in Switzerland may be disappearing due to global heating..
>Now that would kill tourism / skying to the mountains there.
>Saves a lot of people from getting broken bones.. Glow ball worming is good!
>As to Linux, this is posted on my Raspberry Pi4 8 GB, with totally modified user interface,
>running xfm file manager and fvwm window manager with 9 desktops 8 of which carry xterms
>in one I run Firefox browser, in one NewsFleX (my Usenet reader), in one xfm (so you can click on things),
>in one sometimes the audio mixer
>but the rest is usually xterms with code I am working on - or scripts I am running.
>Easy to switch desktop from source to compile to documentation that way, all full screen.
>
>The Pi4 is sometimes a bit.. slow... displaying a web page the core i5 is a lot faster...
> Did you ever get that Raspberry thing you bought online?
>The plus I have here is the Huawei 4G USB stick, stick it in the laptop anywhere in the country and I am online
>stick it in the Raspberry and I am online and can hang any other PC on the LAN as this Pi4 is also configured as router.
>It shows up as ethernet port in
>raspberrypi: ~ # lsusb
>...
> Bus 001 Device 012: ID 12d1:14dc Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. E3372 LTE/UMTS/GSM HiLink Modem/Networkcard
>...
>
>And of course I use zsh as shell, not bash, zsh saves a lot of typing.
>Joe as editor, in black and white mode, color in C source code I find horrible
>All xterms / rxvts terminals background white text black.
>just like paper.
>
>I know a picture says a thousand words, like a comic does, but this is it in words..
>Physical exercise is good, typing is one, as is gardening.
>
>
>
>
>

I design electronics. I prefer to draw than to type. I want a PC to
run apps and not need a lot of maintenance. Windows is awful but it
mostly works.

Do you run Spice on your Pi? PCB design?

On a sunny day (Tue, 29 Aug 2023 15:29:39 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<36sseiliuf8035ek1knv59jb2pan1pvloa@4ax.com>:

>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 16:00:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Tue, 29 Aug 2023 08:04:02 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>><b32sei5eom1c9ujhst3cel6vb3vutnu9kp@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 05:12:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Aug 2023 22:03:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>><2uuqeilc6p74v1lbl3ua6q3dnhhiqvtbqi@4ax.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 04:53:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Aug 2023 08:37:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>>>><okfpeid3sso9q00ccdsj8pf7s5qbfsprdm@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 15:22:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>Bit more climate change, nuclear wars, taxes, mass migration will happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Be as scared and depressed as you prefer. I'd rather design
>>>>>>>electronics and enjoy this beautiful planet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's crazy how life is better and safer than ever, and so many people
>>>>>>>are neurotic and afraid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well yes, US war machine, ever more US suicides, drugs,
>>>>>>and I am installing or trying to install the latest Linux releases ... Slackware, Ubuntu on my laptop.
>>>>>
>>>>>No wonder you're depressed.
>>>>
>>>>I am not depressed, I am not in the US either :-)
>>>
>>>The USA is fabulous. There is so much of it, in three dimensions
>>>
>>>(I used to be a flatlander too.)
>>>
>>>>Just a realist...
>>>>
>>>
>>>https://xkcd.com/456/
>>
>>Yea, that strip says it now does it?
>>
>>I bought this Samsung laptop like 10 years ago (Core I5) and I like it
>>I was wise enough to have made a copy of all I did on it, I have put that back on it
>>and use some old code I wrote from that copy.
>>And added many movies...mplayer works for video and audio it seems in Ubuntu.
>>Today was away shopping and after that working for hours in the garden and then cooking dinner and eating it.
>>And that really tasted good.
>>Been in many places in the US, not so much in mountain areas..
>>Does not attract me at all..
>>There was in the news that the glaciers in Switzerland may be disappearing due to global heating..
>>Now that would kill tourism / skying to the mountains there.
>>Saves a lot of people from getting broken bones.. Glow ball worming is good!
>>As to Linux, this is posted on my Raspberry Pi4 8 GB, with totally modified user interface,
>>running xfm file manager and fvwm window manager with 9 desktops 8 of which carry xterms
>>in one I run Firefox browser, in one NewsFleX (my Usenet reader), in one xfm (so you can click on things),
>>in one sometimes the audio mixer
>>but the rest is usually xterms with code I am working on - or scripts I am running.
>>Easy to switch desktop from source to compile to documentation that way, all full screen.
>>
>>The Pi4 is sometimes a bit.. slow... displaying a web page the core i5 is a lot faster...
>> Did you ever get that Raspberry thing you bought online?
>>The plus I have here is the Huawei 4G USB stick, stick it in the laptop anywhere in the country and I am online
>>stick it in the Raspberry and I am online and can hang any other PC on the LAN as this Pi4 is also configured as router.
>>It shows up as ethernet port in
>>raspberrypi: ~ # lsusb
>>...
>> Bus 001 Device 012: ID 12d1:14dc Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. E3372 LTE/UMTS/GSM HiLink Modem/Networkcard
>>...
>>
>>And of course I use zsh as shell, not bash, zsh saves a lot of typing.
>>Joe as editor, in black and white mode, color in C source code I find horrible
>>All xterms / rxvts terminals background white text black.
>>just like paper.
>>
>>I know a picture says a thousand words, like a comic does, but this is it in words..
>>Physical exercise is good, typing is one, as is gardening.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>I design electronics. I prefer to draw than to type. I want a PC to
>run apps and not need a lot of maintenance. Windows is awful but it
>mostly works.
>
>Do you run Spice on your Pi? PCB design?

I have ltspice on a PCs and the laptop all via wine in Linux, hardly ever use it.
The last peeseebee design I did was for some subtitle equipment many years back, don't remember what I used, but it was a Linux program.
Before that I would just draw the layout by hand and etch it myself,
or used the inkjet printer on transparent and then expose to light via the transparent to photo print, then etching,
All other things I build now as I am retired are on .1 inch hole spacing veroboard.
Saves time and money for one or a few boards.
Those things just keep working, even 30 year old things.
In the days I worked in industry we had my circuit diagrams for some huge project converted and made into PCBs by some company here.
The simple ones we did etch ourselves.
Code is a means to an end, you can make things do what you want them to do with it.
If you know what you want to / have to do to reach your objectives.
In 99 percent of the cases no PC a bloat is needed, just a simple micro will do.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
can drop your explosives too, seems to be 'in' these days...
Apps? Is not a web browser worse enough?
I wrote some, here a nice 'app' to play music:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/xmpl_2021.gif
I wrote a lot of that stuff, all running in Linux of course:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xmpl
This (later version) I use to post this, from this Pi4:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/index.html
see headers.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 05:49:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Tue, 29 Aug 2023 15:29:39 -0700) it happened John Larkin
><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
><36sseiliuf8035ek1knv59jb2pan1pvloa@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 16:00:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 29 Aug 2023 08:04:02 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>><b32sei5eom1c9ujhst3cel6vb3vutnu9kp@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 05:12:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Aug 2023 22:03:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>>><2uuqeilc6p74v1lbl3ua6q3dnhhiqvtbqi@4ax.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 04:53:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Aug 2023 08:37:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>>>>><okfpeid3sso9q00ccdsj8pf7s5qbfsprdm@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 15:22:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>Bit more climate change, nuclear wars, taxes, mass migration will happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Be as scared and depressed as you prefer. I'd rather design
>>>>>>>>electronics and enjoy this beautiful planet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It's crazy how life is better and safer than ever, and so many people
>>>>>>>>are neurotic and afraid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Well yes, US war machine, ever more US suicides, drugs,
>>>>>>>and I am installing or trying to install the latest Linux releases ... Slackware, Ubuntu on my laptop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No wonder you're depressed.
>>>>>
>>>>>I am not depressed, I am not in the US either :-)
>>>>
>>>>The USA is fabulous. There is so much of it, in three dimensions
>>>>
>>>>(I used to be a flatlander too.)
>>>>
>>>>>Just a realist...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>https://xkcd.com/456/
>>>
>>>Yea, that strip says it now does it?
>>>
>>>I bought this Samsung laptop like 10 years ago (Core I5) and I like it
>>>I was wise enough to have made a copy of all I did on it, I have put that back on it
>>>and use some old code I wrote from that copy.
>>>And added many movies...mplayer works for video and audio it seems in Ubuntu.
>>>Today was away shopping and after that working for hours in the garden and then cooking dinner and eating it.
>>>And that really tasted good.
>>>Been in many places in the US, not so much in mountain areas..
>>>Does not attract me at all..
>>>There was in the news that the glaciers in Switzerland may be disappearing due to global heating..
>>>Now that would kill tourism / skying to the mountains there.
>>>Saves a lot of people from getting broken bones.. Glow ball worming is good!
>>>As to Linux, this is posted on my Raspberry Pi4 8 GB, with totally modified user interface,
>>>running xfm file manager and fvwm window manager with 9 desktops 8 of which carry xterms
>>>in one I run Firefox browser, in one NewsFleX (my Usenet reader), in one xfm (so you can click on things),
>>>in one sometimes the audio mixer
>>>but the rest is usually xterms with code I am working on - or scripts I am running.
>>>Easy to switch desktop from source to compile to documentation that way, all full screen.
>>>
>>>The Pi4 is sometimes a bit.. slow... displaying a web page the core i5 is a lot faster...
>>> Did you ever get that Raspberry thing you bought online?
>>>The plus I have here is the Huawei 4G USB stick, stick it in the laptop anywhere in the country and I am online
>>>stick it in the Raspberry and I am online and can hang any other PC on the LAN as this Pi4 is also configured as router.
>>>It shows up as ethernet port in
>>>raspberrypi: ~ # lsusb
>>>...
>>> Bus 001 Device 012: ID 12d1:14dc Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. E3372 LTE/UMTS/GSM HiLink Modem/Networkcard
>>>...
>>>
>>>And of course I use zsh as shell, not bash, zsh saves a lot of typing.
>>>Joe as editor, in black and white mode, color in C source code I find horrible
>>>All xterms / rxvts terminals background white text black.
>>>just like paper.
>>>
>>>I know a picture says a thousand words, like a comic does, but this is it in words..
>>>Physical exercise is good, typing is one, as is gardening.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I design electronics. I prefer to draw than to type. I want a PC to
>>run apps and not need a lot of maintenance. Windows is awful but it
>>mostly works.
>>
>>Do you run Spice on your Pi? PCB design?
>
>I have ltspice on a PCs and the laptop all via wine in Linux, hardly ever use it.

I design analog and digital and power stuff, so I Spice a lot. As Mike
says, the real value of Spice is to help you think. Scribbled doodles
come alive.

>The last peeseebee design I did was for some subtitle equipment many years back, don't remember what I used, but it was a Linux program.
>Before that I would just draw the layout by hand and etch it myself,
>or used the inkjet printer on transparent and then expose to light via the transparent to photo print, then etching,

Nowadays you can get a 4-layer board, all plated-thru and solder
masked, and screened, fast and cheap.

>All other things I build now as I am retired are on .1 inch hole spacing veroboard.
>Saves time and money for one or a few boards.

Dremel! Dremel!

>Those things just keep working, even 30 year old things.
>In the days I worked in industry we had my circuit diagrams for some huge project converted and made into PCBs by some company here.
>The simple ones we did etch ourselves.
>Code is a means to an end, you can make things do what you want them to do with it.

You can't type fast analog stuff.

>If you know what you want to / have to do to reach your objectives.
>In 99 percent of the cases no PC a bloat is needed, just a simple micro will do.
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
> can drop your explosives too, seems to be 'in' these days...
>Apps? Is not a web browser worse enough?

I run all sorts of stuff. Spice, PCB layout, filter design, Word for
notes and manuals, trace impedance calcs, text editor, photo image
editor, cad and SolidWorks viewers, MAX (our inventory and BOM
program), and several engineering things I wrote myself. And many
gigabytes of project files.

Hardware desogn needs all that stuff.

I'm planning to do some products around Pi Pico, which I don't want to
program myself. Wanna help?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dq7lq9bzcrtf285/PiPico_in_Tbox.jpg?raw=1

>I wrote some, here a nice 'app' to play music:
> https://panteltje.nl/pub/xmpl_2021.gif
>I wrote a lot of that stuff, all running in Linux of course:
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xmpl
>This (later version) I use to post this, from this Pi4:
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/index.html
> see headers.

On a sunny day (Wed, 30 Aug 2023 06:40:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<g0hueilq0su03e01p7kik0j05360sakolv@4ax.com>:

>On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 05:49:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Tue, 29 Aug 2023 15:29:39 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>><36sseiliuf8035ek1knv59jb2pan1pvloa@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 16:00:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 29 Aug 2023 08:04:02 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>><b32sei5eom1c9ujhst3cel6vb3vutnu9kp@4ax.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 05:12:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Aug 2023 22:03:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>>>><2uuqeilc6p74v1lbl3ua6q3dnhhiqvtbqi@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 04:53:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Aug 2023 08:37:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>><okfpeid3sso9q00ccdsj8pf7s5qbfsprdm@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 15:22:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>Bit more climate change, nuclear wars, taxes, mass migration will happen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Be as scared and depressed as you prefer. I'd rather design
>>>>>>>>>electronics and enjoy this beautiful planet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It's crazy how life is better and safer than ever, and so many people
>>>>>>>>>are neurotic and afraid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well yes, US war machine, ever more US suicides, drugs,
>>>>>>>>and I am installing or trying to install the latest Linux releases ... Slackware, Ubuntu on my laptop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No wonder you're depressed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am not depressed, I am not in the US either :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>The USA is fabulous. There is so much of it, in three dimensions
>>>>>
>>>>>(I used to be a flatlander too.)
>>>>>
>>>>>>Just a realist...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://xkcd.com/456/
>>>>
>>>>Yea, that strip says it now does it?
>>>>
>>>>I bought this Samsung laptop like 10 years ago (Core I5) and I like it
>>>>I was wise enough to have made a copy of all I did on it, I have put that back on it
>>>>and use some old code I wrote from that copy.
>>>>And added many movies...mplayer works for video and audio it seems in Ubuntu.
>>>>Today was away shopping and after that working for hours in the garden and then cooking dinner and eating it.
>>>>And that really tasted good.
>>>>Been in many places in the US, not so much in mountain areas..
>>>>Does not attract me at all..
>>>>There was in the news that the glaciers in Switzerland may be disappearing due to global heating..
>>>>Now that would kill tourism / skying to the mountains there.
>>>>Saves a lot of people from getting broken bones.. Glow ball worming is good!
>>>>As to Linux, this is posted on my Raspberry Pi4 8 GB, with totally modified user interface,
>>>>running xfm file manager and fvwm window manager with 9 desktops 8 of which carry xterms
>>>>in one I run Firefox browser, in one NewsFleX (my Usenet reader), in one xfm (so you can click on things),
>>>>in one sometimes the audio mixer
>>>>but the rest is usually xterms with code I am working on - or scripts I am running.
>>>>Easy to switch desktop from source to compile to documentation that way, all full screen.
>>>>
>>>>The Pi4 is sometimes a bit.. slow... displaying a web page the core i5 is a lot faster...
>>>> Did you ever get that Raspberry thing you bought online?
>>>>The plus I have here is the Huawei 4G USB stick, stick it in the laptop anywhere in the country and I am online
>>>>stick it in the Raspberry and I am online and can hang any other PC on the LAN as this Pi4 is also configured as router.
>>>>It shows up as ethernet port in
>>>>raspberrypi: ~ # lsusb
>>>>...
>>>> Bus 001 Device 012: ID 12d1:14dc Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. E3372 LTE/UMTS/GSM HiLink Modem/Networkcard
>>>>...
>>>>
>>>>And of course I use zsh as shell, not bash, zsh saves a lot of typing.
>>>>Joe as editor, in black and white mode, color in C source code I find horrible
>>>>All xterms / rxvts terminals background white text black.
>>>>just like paper.
>>>>
>>>>I know a picture says a thousand words, like a comic does, but this is it in words..
>>>>Physical exercise is good, typing is one, as is gardening.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>I design electronics. I prefer to draw than to type. I want a PC to
>>>run apps and not need a lot of maintenance. Windows is awful but it
>>>mostly works.
>>>
>>>Do you run Spice on your Pi? PCB design?
>>
>>I have ltspice on a PCs and the laptop all via wine in Linux, hardly ever use it.
>
>I design analog and digital and power stuff, so I Spice a lot. As Mike
>says, the real value of Spice is to help you think. Scribbled doodles
>come alive.

I dunno, LTspice never gave me anything new.

>>The last peeseebee design I did was for some subtitle equipment many years back, don't remember what I used, but it was a Linux
>>program.

Think it was eagle?
There was an other program I used, was it Linux pcb I see I have it compiled?
There are more:
https://blog.desdelinux.net/en/los-10-mejores-de-diseno-pcb/

>>Before that I would just draw the layout by hand and etch it myself,
>>or used the inkjet printer on transparent and then expose to light via the transparent to photo print, then etching,
>
>Nowadays you can get a 4-layer board, all plated-thru and solder
>masked, and screened, fast and cheap.

I know, but in my view peeseebees have become a religion.
For huge quantities and nano nano size great.
For special one of things a burden and hard to modify.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/raspberry_pi_datv_transmitter_test_setup_IMG_3937.JPG
You can get adaptors to .1 inch pitch for most chip formats.
Makes modifications much easier too
And yes that is also GHz stuff.

>>All other things I build now as I am retired are on .1 inch hole spacing veroboard.
>>Saves time and money for one or a few boards.
>
>Dremel! Dremel!

Extra work and much less possible, this works for me:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/raspberry_pi_datv_transmitter_wiring_side_IMG_3949.JPG
https://panteltje.nl/pub/PCB_bottom_with_box_IMG_3476.png
All 60/40 soldered of course.
There are cases <and this is made in huge quantities) where PCB is must, and you cannot proto it with dremel either, satellite LNB about 10 GHz:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/5_dollar_LNB_PCB_IMG_3582.GIF
Never the less I modified an other one to provide an external reference frequency for the mixer:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/octagon_twin_LNB_OTLSO_inside_RT320M_PLL_IMG_6538.JPG
https://panteltje.nl/pub/octagon_LNB_crystal_removed_IMG_6546.JPG

>>Those things just keep working, even 30 year old things.
>>In the days I worked in industry we had my circuit diagrams for some huge project converted and made into PCBs by some company
>>here.
>>The simple ones we did etch ourselves.
>>Code is a means to an end, you can make things do what you want them to do with it.
>
>You can't type fast analog stuff.

Not sure what you mean, basic rule 'wavelength', its easy, so many GHz stuff I did that works 100% first time.

>>If you know what you want to / have to do to reach your objectives.
>>In 99 percent of the cases no PC a bloat is needed, just a simple micro will do.
>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
>> can drop your explosives too, seems to be 'in' these days...
>>Apps? Is not a web browser worse enough?
>
>I run all sorts of stuff. Spice, PCB layout, filter design, Word for
>notes and manuals, trace impedance calcs, text editor, photo image
>editor, cad and SolidWorks viewers, MAX (our inventory and BOM
>program), and several engineering things I wrote myself. And many
>gigabytes of project files.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 15:25:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Wed, 30 Aug 2023 06:40:50 -0700) it happened John Larkin
><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
><g0hueilq0su03e01p7kik0j05360sakolv@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 05:49:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 29 Aug 2023 15:29:39 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>><36sseiliuf8035ek1knv59jb2pan1pvloa@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 16:00:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 29 Aug 2023 08:04:02 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>>><b32sei5eom1c9ujhst3cel6vb3vutnu9kp@4ax.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 05:12:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Aug 2023 22:03:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>>>>><2uuqeilc6p74v1lbl3ua6q3dnhhiqvtbqi@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 04:53:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Aug 2023 08:37:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>>>>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>>><okfpeid3sso9q00ccdsj8pf7s5qbfsprdm@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 15:22:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>Bit more climate change, nuclear wars, taxes, mass migration will happen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Be as scared and depressed as you prefer. I'd rather design
>>>>>>>>>>electronics and enjoy this beautiful planet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>It's crazy how life is better and safer than ever, and so many people
>>>>>>>>>>are neurotic and afraid.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Well yes, US war machine, ever more US suicides, drugs,
>>>>>>>>>and I am installing or trying to install the latest Linux releases ... Slackware, Ubuntu on my laptop.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>No wonder you're depressed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am not depressed, I am not in the US either :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The USA is fabulous. There is so much of it, in three dimensions
>>>>>>
>>>>>>(I used to be a flatlander too.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Just a realist...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://xkcd.com/456/
>>>>>
>>>>>Yea, that strip says it now does it?
>>>>>
>>>>>I bought this Samsung laptop like 10 years ago (Core I5) and I like it
>>>>>I was wise enough to have made a copy of all I did on it, I have put that back on it
>>>>>and use some old code I wrote from that copy.
>>>>>And added many movies...mplayer works for video and audio it seems in Ubuntu.
>>>>>Today was away shopping and after that working for hours in the garden and then cooking dinner and eating it.
>>>>>And that really tasted good.
>>>>>Been in many places in the US, not so much in mountain areas..
>>>>>Does not attract me at all..
>>>>>There was in the news that the glaciers in Switzerland may be disappearing due to global heating..
>>>>>Now that would kill tourism / skying to the mountains there.
>>>>>Saves a lot of people from getting broken bones.. Glow ball worming is good!
>>>>>As to Linux, this is posted on my Raspberry Pi4 8 GB, with totally modified user interface,
>>>>>running xfm file manager and fvwm window manager with 9 desktops 8 of which carry xterms
>>>>>in one I run Firefox browser, in one NewsFleX (my Usenet reader), in one xfm (so you can click on things),
>>>>>in one sometimes the audio mixer
>>>>>but the rest is usually xterms with code I am working on - or scripts I am running.
>>>>>Easy to switch desktop from source to compile to documentation that way, all full screen.
>>>>>
>>>>>The Pi4 is sometimes a bit.. slow... displaying a web page the core i5 is a lot faster...
>>>>> Did you ever get that Raspberry thing you bought online?
>>>>>The plus I have here is the Huawei 4G USB stick, stick it in the laptop anywhere in the country and I am online
>>>>>stick it in the Raspberry and I am online and can hang any other PC on the LAN as this Pi4 is also configured as router.
>>>>>It shows up as ethernet port in
>>>>>raspberrypi: ~ # lsusb
>>>>>...
>>>>> Bus 001 Device 012: ID 12d1:14dc Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. E3372 LTE/UMTS/GSM HiLink Modem/Networkcard
>>>>>...
>>>>>
>>>>>And of course I use zsh as shell, not bash, zsh saves a lot of typing.
>>>>>Joe as editor, in black and white mode, color in C source code I find horrible
>>>>>All xterms / rxvts terminals background white text black.
>>>>>just like paper.
>>>>>
>>>>>I know a picture says a thousand words, like a comic does, but this is it in words..
>>>>>Physical exercise is good, typing is one, as is gardening.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I design electronics. I prefer to draw than to type. I want a PC to
>>>>run apps and not need a lot of maintenance. Windows is awful but it
>>>>mostly works.
>>>>
>>>>Do you run Spice on your Pi? PCB design?
>>>
>>>I have ltspice on a PCs and the laptop all via wine in Linux, hardly ever use it.
>>
>>I design analog and digital and power stuff, so I Spice a lot. As Mike
>>says, the real value of Spice is to help you think. Scribbled doodles
>>come alive.
>
>I dunno, LTspice never gave me anything new.
>
>
>>>The last peeseebee design I did was for some subtitle equipment many years back, don't remember what I used, but it was a Linux
>>>program.
>
>Think it was eagle?
>There was an other program I used, was it Linux pcb I see I have it compiled?
>There are more:
> https://blog.desdelinux.net/en/los-10-mejores-de-diseno-pcb/
>
>
>>>Before that I would just draw the layout by hand and etch it myself,
>>>or used the inkjet printer on transparent and then expose to light via the transparent to photo print, then etching,
>>
>>Nowadays you can get a 4-layer board, all plated-thru and solder
>>masked, and screened, fast and cheap.
>
>I know, but in my view peeseebees have become a religion.
>For huge quantities and nano nano size great.
>For special one of things a burden and hard to modify.
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/raspberry_pi_datv_transmitter_test_setup_IMG_3937.JPG
>You can get adaptors to .1 inch pitch for most chip formats.
>Makes modifications much easier too
>And yes that is also GHz stuff.
>
>
>
>
>>>All other things I build now as I am retired are on .1 inch hole spacing veroboard.
>>>Saves time and money for one or a few boards.
>>
>>Dremel! Dremel!
>
>Extra work and much less possible, this works for me:
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/raspberry_pi_datv_transmitter_wiring_side_IMG_3949.JPG
> https://panteltje.nl/pub/PCB_bottom_with_box_IMG_3476.png
>All 60/40 soldered of course.
>There are cases <and this is made in huge quantities) where PCB is must, and you cannot proto it with dremel either, satellite LNB about 10 GHz:
> https://panteltje.nl/pub/5_dollar_LNB_PCB_IMG_3582.GIF
>Never the less I modified an other one to provide an external reference frequency for the mixer:
> https://panteltje.nl/pub/octagon_twin_LNB_OTLSO_inside_RT320M_PLL_IMG_6538.JPG
> https://panteltje.nl/pub/octagon_LNB_crystal_removed_IMG_6546.JPG
>
>
>>>Those things just keep working, even 30 year old things.
>>>In the days I worked in industry we had my circuit diagrams for some huge project converted and made into PCBs by some company
>>>here.
>>>The simple ones we did etch ourselves.
>>>Code is a means to an end, you can make things do what you want them to do with it.
>>
>>You can't type fast analog stuff.
>
>Not sure what you mean, basic rule 'wavelength', its easy, so many GHz stuff I did that works 100% first time.
>
>
>
>>>If you know what you want to / have to do to reach your objectives.
>>>In 99 percent of the cases no PC a bloat is needed, just a simple micro will do.
>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
>>> can drop your explosives too, seems to be 'in' these days...
>>>Apps? Is not a web browser worse enough?
>>
>>I run all sorts of stuff. Spice, PCB layout, filter design, Word for
>>notes and manuals, trace impedance calcs, text editor, photo image
>>editor, cad and SolidWorks viewers, MAX (our inventory and BOM
>>program), and several engineering things I wrote myself. And many
>>gigabytes of project files.
>
>OK if you want to call that 'apps' OK, I wrote a few hundred that I use everyday, one just now
>to burn DVDs on that old Samsung laptop with Ubuntu.
>The nice thing is that it has a DVD / reader / burner.
>
>By 'apps' I think more of things on a smartphone, I call things I write programs.
>Text editor is 'joe' here in Linux, in BW mode, I do not like colored source code in C or in text.
>Been using 'joe' editor since I run Linux, as well as pine (now called alpine) and fetchmail.
>but also wrote my own email client, irc client, Usenet program, etc etc.
>There are several filter design programs in Linux and math programs, Mathematica came free with my Raspi distro,
>unit conversion programs, what not.
>What did not exist I wrote when I needed it ...
>And there is the internet open source to get code and possibly modify it to your needs.
>You can learn a lot from open source code.
>
>
>>Hardware desogn needs all that stuff.
>>
>>I'm planning to do some products around Pi Pico, which I don't want to
>>program myself. Wanna help?
>>
>>https://www.dropbox.com/s/dq7lq9bzcrtf285/PiPico_in_Tbox.jpg?raw=1
>
>I have no Pico and actually I do not want one.
>I do not see any advantage in a Pico.

On a sunny day (Wed, 30 Aug 2023 17:01:10 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<gglveihvmv6vi16nut1tjgi82jc18gu8ns@4ax.com>:

>On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 15:25:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>
>You get a CPU module with dual-core ARM, switching supply, clock, usb,
>flash, ram, a mouse-bite drop-in board, guaranteed availability, for
>$4 at any quantity, with a $75 dev system.

Yes I know, but from what I have read it is python and lots of restrictions.
I'd rather use a Microchip 18F14K22 it has 12 bit ADC, a DAC, several I/O pins, counters, timers,
serial I/O and runs at 64 MHz clock using micro amps if needed.
If I need more FLASH add a chip...
But then if you have an FPGA on board did you ever look at the projects on opencores?
https://opencores.org/projects

My rapis have gcc on board, no 'dev system' needed.

>But I am talking about manufacturing products to sell. Pico doesn't
>make as much sense for personal projects.

>We are considering a 4B as the controller inside a bigger product. It
>has so much compute power that one of the cores running a bare-metal
>software state machine could replace an FPGA.

There is always the real time issue and glue logic that FPGA can give.
The Pi 4 has great I/O: hang any HDMI monitor on it, audio out 3.5 mm, networking,
Adding a bit of external logic, like FIFO RAM, can do a real time job:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

Make a signal generator:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#freq_pi

OTOH you do not always need all that for 'real time', scope with a PIC:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
seems a Pico has 4 12 bit ADCs one in use to measure chip temperature
but minimum current draw is 38 mA?
Frequency counter in a RS232 plug with a PIC:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/freq_pic/

A Pi 4 has more computer power than what NASA used to do the moon landings..
So ...
IR camera module processing on Pi 4:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

But IR target aquisation and tracking with a PIC, including servo drive I have done too...

Have not used FPGA in ages...

On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 05:56:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Wed, 30 Aug 2023 17:01:10 -0700) it happened John Larkin
><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
><gglveihvmv6vi16nut1tjgi82jc18gu8ns@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 15:25:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>You get a CPU module with dual-core ARM, switching supply, clock, usb,
>>flash, ram, a mouse-bite drop-in board, guaranteed availability, for
>>$4 at any quantity, with a $75 dev system.
>
>Yes I know, but from what I have read it is python and lots of restrictions.

It doesn't have enough resources to run Python in a realtime system.
Bare-metal c makes a lot more sense.

>I'd rather use a Microchip 18F14K22 it has 12 bit ADC, a DAC, several I/O pins, counters, timers,
>serial I/O and runs at 64 MHz clock using micro amps if needed.

Pico is dual-core at 125 MHz with 2 Mbytes flash. That PIC has 16
Kbytes. One sine lookup table or ethernet stack could be more than
that

One core could do the slow management and communications stuff and one
could do the hard realtime parts. That's a nice division of labor.

>If I need more FLASH add a chip...
>But then if you have an FPGA on board did you ever look at the projects on opencores?
> https://opencores.org/projects
>
>My rapis have gcc on board, no 'dev system' needed.

The RP400 dev system is the $75 keyboard that has a Pi4 inside. It
boots up their linux. A 3-wire interface lets it load and debug code
on a Pico. They did everything right.

>
>>But I am talking about manufacturing products to sell. Pico doesn't
>>make as much sense for personal projects.
>
>
>>We are considering a 4B as the controller inside a bigger product. It
>>has so much compute power that one of the cores running a bare-metal
>>software state machine could replace an FPGA.
>
>There is always the real time issue and glue logic that FPGA can give.
>The Pi 4 has great I/O: hang any HDMI monitor on it, audio out 3.5 mm, networking,
>Adding a bit of external logic, like FIFO RAM, can do a real time job:
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>
>Make a signal generator:
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#freq_pi
>
>
>OTOH you do not always need all that for 'real time', scope with a PIC:
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
> seems a Pico has 4 12 bit ADCs one in use to measure chip temperature
> but minimum current draw is 38 mA?

No problem in a aerospace signal conditioner or signal generator.
These things don't run from batteries. Some of the products that I'm
considering will be limited by box temperature rise, ballpark 5 watts.

>
>Frequency counter in a RS232 plug with a PIC:
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/freq_pic/
>
>A Pi 4 has more computer power than what NASA used to do the moon landings..

So does pico! By a factor of hundreds probably.

>So ...
>IR camera module processing on Pi 4:
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir
>
>But IR target aquisation and tracking with a PIC, including servo drive I have done too...
>
>Have not used FPGA in ages...

Some of our products might use a Pico and an efinix FPGA. Like for
decimating a bunch of 20 MHz delta-sigma ADCs for example, or doing a
lot of trig fast.

On 2023-08-31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Wed, 30 Aug 2023 17:01:10 -0700) it happened John Larkin
><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
><gglveihvmv6vi16nut1tjgi82jc18gu8ns@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 15:25:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>You get a CPU module with dual-core ARM, switching supply, clock, usb,
>>flash, ram, a mouse-bite drop-in board, guaranteed availability, for
>>$4 at any quantity, with a $75 dev system.
>
> Yes I know, but from what I have read it is python and lots of
> restrictions.

Python* is (on the RP2040 / pi pico ) the "easy approach" for, well
hobbiests / students / etc. You don't *have* to run Python on it.

It's essentially the equivalent of using Arduino's libraries for an
ATMega. Does it work? yes. Can you do better? also yes.

[*] I think specifically it's one of the variants like "circuitPython"
or something like that; though I honestly don't really follow the whole
thing there -- C (and my feeble attempts at assembly) works quite well.

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On a sunny day (Thu, 31 Aug 2023 11:45:33 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Dan Purgert
<dan@djph.net> wrote in <slrnuf0vde.f45.dan@djph.net>:

>On 2023-08-31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Wed, 30 Aug 2023 17:01:10 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>><gglveihvmv6vi16nut1tjgi82jc18gu8ns@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 15:25:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>You get a CPU module with dual-core ARM, switching supply, clock, usb,
>>>flash, ram, a mouse-bite drop-in board, guaranteed availability, for
>>>$4 at any quantity, with a $75 dev system.
>>
>> Yes I know, but from what I have read it is python and lots of
>> restrictions.
>
>Python* is (on the RP2040 / pi pico ) the "easy approach" for, well
>hobbiests / students / etc. You don't *have* to run Python on it.
>
>It's essentially the equivalent of using Arduino's libraries for an
>ATMega. Does it work? yes. Can you do better? also yes.
>
>[*] I think specifically it's one of the variants like "circuitPython"
>or something like that; though I honestly don't really follow the whole
>thing there -- C (and my feeble attempts at assembly) works quite well.

OK, thank you.
assembly in ARM I have never even tried ...
x86 I did OK, z80, PICs, 8052, what not, but never ARM..
I see on your site you wrote an assembler for the Atmel AVR, cool!

>|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert

On a sunny day (Thu, 31 Aug 2023 04:33:03 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<dbt0fi5logif644nb7v1bfs4aidfnrvs73@4ax.com>:

>On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 05:56:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Wed, 30 Aug 2023 17:01:10 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>><gglveihvmv6vi16nut1tjgi82jc18gu8ns@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 15:25:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>You get a CPU module with dual-core ARM, switching supply, clock, usb,
>>>flash, ram, a mouse-bite drop-in board, guaranteed availability, for
>>>$4 at any quantity, with a $75 dev system.
>>
>>Yes I know, but from what I have read it is python and lots of restrictions.
>
>It doesn't have enough resources to run Python in a realtime system.
>Bare-metal c makes a lot more sense.
>
>>I'd rather use a Microchip 18F14K22 it has 12 bit ADC, a DAC, several I/O pins, counters, timers,
>>serial I/O and runs at 64 MHz clock using micro amps if needed.
>
>Pico is dual-core at 125 MHz with 2 Mbytes flash. That PIC has 16
>Kbytes. One sine lookup table or ethernet stack could be more than
>that

Could be, there is a sine table in the scope_pic asm with space left for the code:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
table is used for the Fourier transform for spectrum display.

Many of the PIC projects I did have an UDP stack I wrote, just a few lines asm,
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/index.html
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/ethernet_color_pic/
A TCP stack takes a few more lines but I was not curious enough to write one again as I already wrote one long time ago in C for an other project.
Things have been running 24/7 for month.. years
Not everything is on the website, humidity_pic uses UDP and POE for example,
it sends temperature, relative humidity.

>One core could do the slow management and communications stuff and one
>could do the hard realtime parts. That's a nice division of labor.
>
>
>>If I need more FLASH add a chip...
>>But then if you have an FPGA on board did you ever look at the projects on opencores?
>> https://opencores.org/projects
>>
>>My rapis have gcc on board, no 'dev system' needed.
>
>The RP400 dev system is the $75 keyboard that has a Pi4 inside. It
>boots up their linux. A 3-wire interface lets it load and debug code
>on a Pico. They did everything right.

Ah, yes, so the Pi4.. Did you play with it?
I am posting this from a Pi4 8GB with the newsreader I wrote, see headers

>
>>
>>>But I am talking about manufacturing products to sell. Pico doesn't
>>>make as much sense for personal projects.
>>
>>
>>>We are considering a 4B as the controller inside a bigger product. It
>>>has so much compute power that one of the cores running a bare-metal
>>>software state machine could replace an FPGA.
>>
>>There is always the real time issue and glue logic that FPGA can give.
>>The Pi 4 has great I/O: hang any HDMI monitor on it, audio out 3.5 mm, networking,
>>Adding a bit of external logic, like FIFO RAM, can do a real time job:
>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>
>>Make a signal generator:
>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#freq_pi
>>
>>
>>OTOH you do not always need all that for 'real time', scope with a PIC:
>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
>> seems a Pico has 4 12 bit ADCs one in use to measure chip temperature
>> but minimum current draw is 38 mA?
>
>No problem in a aerospace signal conditioner or signal generator.
>These things don't run from batteries. Some of the products that I'm
>considering will be limited by box temperature rise, ballpark 5 watts.
>
>>
>>Frequency counter in a RS232 plug with a PIC:
>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/freq_pic/
>>
>>A Pi 4 has more computer power than what NASA used to do the moon landings..
>
>So does pico! By a factor of hundreds probably.
>
>
>>So ...
>>IR camera module processing on Pi 4:
>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir
>>
>>But IR target aquisation and tracking with a PIC, including servo drive I have done too...
>>
>>Have not used FPGA in ages...
>
>Some of our products might use a Pico and an efinix FPGA. Like for
>decimating a bunch of 20 MHz delta-sigma ADCs for example, or doing a
>lot of trig fast.

Video processing and driving model servos with a PIC in asm is nice too.
Was still fighting with Ubuntu on the laptop today. most things are now how I want it.
Thing was secretly loading megabytes of 'updates' .. switched it off (I hope).

On 2023-08-31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 31 Aug 2023 11:45:33 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Dan Purgert
><dan@djph.net> wrote in <slrnuf0vde.f45.dan@djph.net>:
>
>>On 2023-08-31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Wed, 30 Aug 2023 17:01:10 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>><gglveihvmv6vi16nut1tjgi82jc18gu8ns@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 15:25:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You get a CPU module with dual-core ARM, switching supply, clock, usb,
>>>>flash, ram, a mouse-bite drop-in board, guaranteed availability, for
>>>>$4 at any quantity, with a $75 dev system.
>>>
>>> Yes I know, but from what I have read it is python and lots of
>>> restrictions.
>>
>>Python* is (on the RP2040 / pi pico ) the "easy approach" for, well
>>hobbiests / students / etc. You don't *have* to run Python on it.
>>
>>It's essentially the equivalent of using Arduino's libraries for an
>>ATMega. Does it work? yes. Can you do better? also yes.
>>
>>[*] I think specifically it's one of the variants like "circuitPython"
>>or something like that; though I honestly don't really follow the whole
>>thing there -- C (and my feeble attempts at assembly) works quite well.
>
> OK, thank you.
> assembly in ARM I have never even tried ...
> x86 I did OK, z80, PICs, 8052, what not, but never ARM..

Me neither - AVR, and trying to learn z80 and 6502, in order to see
what's "easier" to implement a crackpot idea for a computer (think like
a ZX Spectrum or similar, but with a slightly bigger display.

> I see on your site you wrote an assembler for the Atmel AVR, cool!

An assembler? I wish :), though if I get this crackpot SBC idea off the
ground, I guess I'll need to write one.

I've been writing tutorials as time permits, in the vein of
http://avr-asm-tutorial.net , as that site's tutorials focused on some
rather old chips (IIRC, the Tiny13 and Mega88 and there is a distinct
lack of tutorials in general).

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On a sunny day (Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:37:39 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Dan Purgert
<dan@djph.net> wrote in <slrnuf19g3.f45.dan@djph.net>:

>On 2023-08-31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 31 Aug 2023 11:45:33 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Dan Purgert
>><dan@djph.net> wrote in <slrnuf0vde.f45.dan@djph.net>:
>>
>>>On 2023-08-31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> On a sunny day (Wed, 30 Aug 2023 17:01:10 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>><gglveihvmv6vi16nut1tjgi82jc18gu8ns@4ax.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 15:25:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You get a CPU module with dual-core ARM, switching supply, clock, usb,
>>>>>flash, ram, a mouse-bite drop-in board, guaranteed availability, for
>>>>>$4 at any quantity, with a $75 dev system.
>>>>
>>>> Yes I know, but from what I have read it is python and lots of
>>>> restrictions.
>>>
>>>Python* is (on the RP2040 / pi pico ) the "easy approach" for, well
>>>hobbiests / students / etc. You don't *have* to run Python on it.
>>>
>>>It's essentially the equivalent of using Arduino's libraries for an
>>>ATMega. Does it work? yes. Can you do better? also yes.
>>>
>>>[*] I think specifically it's one of the variants like "circuitPython"
>>>or something like that; though I honestly don't really follow the whole
>>>thing there -- C (and my feeble attempts at assembly) works quite well.
>>
>> OK, thank you.
>> assembly in ARM I have never even tried ...
>> x86 I did OK, z80, PICs, 8052, what not, but never ARM..
>
>Me neither - AVR, and trying to learn z80 and 6502, in order to see
>what's "easier" to implement a crackpot idea for a computer (think like
>a ZX Spectrum or similar, but with a slightly bigger display.

What got me going, when I bought that ZX80 in the early eighties I think it was,
was
https://archive.org/details/8080_and_Z-80_Assembly_Language_Techniques_1981_John_Wiley_and_Sons
Then I took that ZX80 and added a 64 kB RAM module, a floppy drive, and then added card after card I designed:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html
and to be able to run proprams from the CP/M user club, I wrote a CP/M clone that ran on the ZX81:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/index.html

The other book that helped me a lot was:
https://www.amazon.com/Microprocessor-Interfacing-Techniques-Rodnay-Zaks/dp/0895880296
I was already designing electronics back then, so working with processors was the next step...

>> I see on your site you wrote an assembler for the Atmel AVR, cool!
>
>An assembler? I wish :), though if I get this crackpot SBC idea off the
>ground, I guess I'll need to write one.

OK, I was looking at
https://github.com/dpurgert/avra

>I've been writing tutorials as time permits, in the vein of
>http://avr-asm-tutorial.net , as that site's tutorials focused on some
>rather old chips (IIRC, the Tiny13 and Mega88 and there is a distinct
>lack of tutorials in general).

Yes good tutorials are rare, I did find some great help for Ubuntu online today.

>|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert

On 2023-08-31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:37:39 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Dan Purgert
><dan@djph.net> wrote in <slrnuf19g3.f45.dan@djph.net>:
>>On 2023-08-31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> I see on your site you wrote an assembler for the Atmel AVR, cool!
>>
>>An assembler? I wish :), though if I get this crackpot SBC idea off the
>>ground, I guess I'll need to write one.
>
> OK, I was looking at
> https://github.com/dpurgert/avra

Ah yeah, I cloned that from the main project repo to add in support for like
the Mega88PA or PB or whatever I was playing with at the time. Someone
beat me to the PR back to the main project though :).

I really should check back what's on there, as I started moving a lot of
my work over to my personally hosted gitlab server (though I'm 99% sure
those're all "private" repos thanks to some bot battering on the door
for a while and making that VM crawl).

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
wrote:

>On 2023-08-31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 31 Aug 2023 11:45:33 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Dan Purgert
>><dan@djph.net> wrote in <slrnuf0vde.f45.dan@djph.net>:
>>
>>>On 2023-08-31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> On a sunny day (Wed, 30 Aug 2023 17:01:10 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>>><jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
>>>><gglveihvmv6vi16nut1tjgi82jc18gu8ns@4ax.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 15:25:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You get a CPU module with dual-core ARM, switching supply, clock, usb,
>>>>>flash, ram, a mouse-bite drop-in board, guaranteed availability, for
>>>>>$4 at any quantity, with a $75 dev system.
>>>>
>>>> Yes I know, but from what I have read it is python and lots of
>>>> restrictions.
>>>
>>>Python* is (on the RP2040 / pi pico ) the "easy approach" for, well
>>>hobbiests / students / etc. You don't *have* to run Python on it.
>>>
>>>It's essentially the equivalent of using Arduino's libraries for an
>>>ATMega. Does it work? yes. Can you do better? also yes.
>>>
>>>[*] I think specifically it's one of the variants like "circuitPython"
>>>or something like that; though I honestly don't really follow the whole
>>>thing there -- C (and my feeble attempts at assembly) works quite well.
>>
>> OK, thank you.
>> assembly in ARM I have never even tried ...
>> x86 I did OK, z80, PICs, 8052, what not, but never ARM..
>
>Me neither - AVR, and trying to learn z80 and 6502, in order to see
>what's "easier" to implement a crackpot idea for a computer (think like
>a ZX Spectrum or similar, but with a slightly bigger display.
>
>> I see on your site you wrote an assembler for the Atmel AVR, cool!
>
>An assembler? I wish :), though if I get this crackpot SBC idea off the
>ground, I guess I'll need to write one.

There are some meta-assemblers around, that let you describe an
instruction set in some reasonable format. I've used one for our old
68332 projects, Cross-32.

On 2023-08-31, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
> wrote:
>> [...]
>>An assembler? I wish :), though if I get this crackpot SBC idea off the
>>ground, I guess I'll need to write one.
>
> There are some meta-assemblers around, that let you describe an
> instruction set in some reasonable format. I've used one for our old
> 68332 projects, Cross-32.
>

I haven't honestly looked very far into the aforementioned project
beyond the "hey, it'd be pretty cool to build my own SBC". There are
lots of problems to overcome with it, "writing an avr assembler to
assemble source code that I wrote on the text editor that is running on
the OS ... " and all that :)

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 20:49:02 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
wrote:

>On 2023-08-31, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
>> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>An assembler? I wish :), though if I get this crackpot SBC idea off the
>>>ground, I guess I'll need to write one.
>>
>> There are some meta-assemblers around, that let you describe an
>> instruction set in some reasonable format. I've used one for our old
>> 68332 projects, Cross-32.
>>
>
>I haven't honestly looked very far into the aforementioned project
>beyond the "hey, it'd be pretty cool to build my own SBC". There are
>lots of problems to overcome with it, "writing an avr assembler to
>assemble source code that I wrote on the text editor that is running on
>the OS ... " and all that :)

I designed a CPU once, two boards of TTL logic. It had, as I recall,
three opcodes. One of my guys created an assembler using macros in the
PDP-11 macro-assembler. The guy who wrote Macro-11 said it's not an
assembler, it's a language processor.

We did an MC6802/6803 cross assembler using Macro-11 too.

On 2023-08-31, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 20:49:02 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2023-08-31, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>An assembler? I wish :), though if I get this crackpot SBC idea off the
>>>>ground, I guess I'll need to write one.
>>>
>>> There are some meta-assemblers around, that let you describe an
>>> instruction set in some reasonable format. I've used one for our old
>>> 68332 projects, Cross-32.
>>>
>>
>>I haven't honestly looked very far into the aforementioned project
>>beyond the "hey, it'd be pretty cool to build my own SBC". There are
>>lots of problems to overcome with it, "writing an avr assembler to
>>assemble source code that I wrote on the text editor that is running on
>>the OS ... " and all that :)
>
> I designed a CPU once, two boards of TTL logic. It had, as I recall,
> three opcodes. One of my guys created an assembler using macros in the
> PDP-11 macro-assembler. The guy who wrote Macro-11 said it's not an
> assembler, it's a language processor.
>
> We did an MC6802/6803 cross assembler using Macro-11 too.

Fun stuff :)

If you're one for youtube, Ben Eater has a fun series where he builds a
CPU on a stack of breadboards. It's geared towards the general
population (so can be a bit simplistic at times -- think like "How It's
Made" or "Modern Marvels" or similar television shows), but still a
pretty fun series.

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860