On 01/09/2023 15:49, John Larkin wrote:

> Can kids buy liquor where you live, in your land of the free?

Not legally until they are over 18 (or looked like they were in my day).

However, you can work in a bar and sell alcohol once you are over 16 and
in the presence of an adult consume beer, cider or wine with a meal
here. Exact rules vary with county council and how puritanical they are
so some places an under 16 can only sell beer/cider in sealed cans.

It was an open secret in my youth which pubs and clubs were not too
fussy about checking ID and I expect that is still true today.

--
Martin Brown

On 2023-09-01, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/1/2023 6:29 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> On 2023-09-01, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 9/1/2023 4:42 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>> On 2023-09-01, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> I had to visit a package store, yesterday, to buy some
>>>>> booze for a friend's bday. After ringing up the sale,
>>>>> he asked for my ID (REALLY? Do I look *20*? 30?? 40???)
>>>>>
>>>>> Turns out, they've got a little appliance to verify your age.
>>>>> Despite the fact that the two items most visible on the
>>>>> license are your birthdate... and your birthdate??
>>>>
>>>> It just scans the magstrip / barcode on the ID (which, IIRC, checks back
>>>> with the official state database -- least the scanners here do). The
>>>
>>> No. It's just an appliance with a power cord. It knows
>>> today's date, the age limit that you're interested in
>>> (so the device can be sold for different applications),
>>> reads the birthdate from the barcode and does the math.
>>> Green light for GO...
>>
>> Maybe I'm thinking of the ones at the pharmacy when I wanna get the
>> formerly OTC cold medicines that actually work. Either way, scanny
>> thing on the barcode.
>
> I've not explored the format of the barcode but imagine everything
> PRINTED on the credential is also encoded, there. So, a scanner
> *could* harvest name, address, DoB, DL number, state of issue, etc.

Yeah, probably. I'm too lazy to try reading it myself. If I was doing
it, I'd be mega lazy and just put the license number on there, and a
state-issued signature (e.g. PGP, whatever).

Let the state's backend database do all the work to say "yes, the ID is
valid" (and "yes, that ID is allowed to make purchase").

Yeah, yeah, state tracking and all that ... but, I mean, it's not like
the licence plate in full view of all the traffic cams en-route (there
are 2, btw) can't be used for the same purpose. Well, maybe I could be
a weirdo and bike, but then I'd be even more noticeable, like those
people who scrub their browser fingerprints to be "anonymous" but end up
making themselves into a beacon of "not normal".

> [...]
> It's a stupid product that poorly addresses an artificial need.
>

Thing is, it's only your assumption of what the device is actually
doing ...

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

fredag den 1. september 2023 kl. 16.51.16 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> On Fri, 1 Sep 2023 07:05:35 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
> <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>
> >fredag den 1. september 2023 kl. 13.10.25 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> >> On Fri, 1 Sep 2023 11:58:33 +0100, Martin Brown
> >> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 01/09/2023 03:31, John Larkin wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 18:38:35 -0700, Don Y
> >> >> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> I had to visit a package store, yesterday, to buy some
> >> >>> booze for a friend's bday. After ringing up the sale,
> >> >>> he asked for my ID (REALLY? Do I look *20*? 30?? 40???)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Turns out, they've got a little appliance to verify your age.
> >> >>> Despite the fact that the two items most visible on the
> >> >>> license are your birthdate... and your birthdate??
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Just how low have they set the qualifications for cashiers
> >> >>> if they can't make THAT decision, unaided?? Are they sure
> >> >>> the cashier can differentiate a $5 from a $20?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> <rolls eyes>
> >> >>
> >> >> Our Safeway is asking everyone that buys beer for an ID. New policy.
> >> >
> >> >What a curious rule to have in "The Land of the Free". Papers please...
> >> I assume that the management doesn't want the checkout people having
> >> to make judgements about age.
> >>
> >> Can kids buy liquor where you live?
> >
> >depends on what you mean by kids, here you have be 16 to buy alcohol over 1.2% and 18 to buy alcohol over 16.5%
> How is that enforced? Do young people have to show Papers, please?

probably, I don't know, it's been several decades since I was that age and back then there was no rules other
than 18 to get into a bar. Back then kids could earn bit of candy money to go to the shop to get dad some beer
and cigarettes while he was watching football

On 9/1/2023 8:12 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>> No. It's just an appliance with a power cord. It knows
>>>> today's date, the age limit that you're interested in
>>>> (so the device can be sold for different applications),
>>>> reads the birthdate from the barcode and does the math.
>>>> Green light for GO...
>>>
>>> Maybe I'm thinking of the ones at the pharmacy when I wanna get the
>>> formerly OTC cold medicines that actually work. Either way, scanny
>>> thing on the barcode.
>>
>> I've not explored the format of the barcode but imagine everything
>> PRINTED on the credential is also encoded, there. So, a scanner
>> *could* harvest name, address, DoB, DL number, state of issue, etc.
>
> Yeah, probably. I'm too lazy to try reading it myself. If I was doing
> it, I'd be mega lazy and just put the license number on there, and a
> state-issued signature (e.g. PGP, whatever).

As its a credential, it has to include enough information
to confirm your identity. E.g., your photo appears *twice*
on a DL.

> Let the state's backend database do all the work to say "yes, the ID is
> valid" (and "yes, that ID is allowed to make purchase").

That would require an on-line link. Like verifying gun purchases
or legal to work.

> Yeah, yeah, state tracking and all that ... but, I mean, it's not like
> the licence plate in full view of all the traffic cams en-route (there
> are 2, btw) can't be used for the same purpose.

License plate just records the vehicle, not the driver/occupant.

A "disguised" camera was installed outside a store that sold
supplies for "growers" in one of the places I lived. It
was fairly obviously a camera as it was housed in a fake
"power transformer" case -- that had a WINDOW in the side!

Photoenforcement is illegal, here -- but, I don't think that applies
to plate readers.

> Well, maybe I could be
> a weirdo and bike, but then I'd be even more noticeable, like those
> people who scrub their browser fingerprints to be "anonymous" but end up
> making themselves into a beacon of "not normal".
>
>> It's a stupid product that poorly addresses an artificial need.
>
> Thing is, it's only your assumption of what the device is actually
> doing ...

The company deploying it has publicly confirmed it -- likely because
folks took exception to having their information "scanned". Lots of
hits:

<https://www.ky3.com/2022/01/27/fact-finders-concerns-about-clerks-scanning-your-drivers-license/>

<https://twitter.com/BevMo/status/1630631256495988737>

<https://www.kgw.com/article/news/verify/fred-meyer-carding-all-customers-scanning-driver-license-barcodes/283-936ed442-4019-4960-b732-4b8a72a705fa>

If data WAS being stored. I would imagine the downside risk of a
data breach would easily outweigh any advantages of harvesting the data
(not to mention pissing off customers who could easily make their
purchases elsewhere!)

Off-topic troll...

--
Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

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Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

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--
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Off-topic troll...

--
Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

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Off-topic troll...

--
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

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Off-topic troll...

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Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:

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Off-topic troll...

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Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

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Off-topic troll...

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John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> wrote:

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John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

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Off-topic troll...

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Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

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Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

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Off-topic troll...

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John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

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> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 14:49:41 +0000
> From: John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Ultimate Dumbing Down
> Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 07:49:38 -0700
> Organization: Highland Tech
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Off-topic troll...

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Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Ultimate Dumbing Down
> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2023 16:04:12 +0100
> Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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Off-topic troll...

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John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

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> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 14:51:05 +0000
> From: John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Ultimate Dumbing Down
> Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 07:51:02 -0700
> Organization: Highland Tech
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Off-topic troll...

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Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Ultimate Dumbing Down
> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2023 11:44:07 -0000 (UTC)
> Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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Off-topic troll...

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Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Ultimate Dumbing Down
> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2023 04:48:48 -0700
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Off-topic troll...

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Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Ultimate Dumbing Down
> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2023 11:42:25 -0000 (UTC)
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Off-topic troll...

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Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Ultimate Dumbing Down
> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2023 05:15:11 -0700
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Off-topic troll...

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Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Ultimate Dumbing Down
> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2023 13:29:21 -0000 (UTC)
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On 2023-09-01, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/1/2023 8:12 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> [...]
>>> It's a stupid product that poorly addresses an artificial need.
>>
>> Thing is, it's only your assumption of what the device is actually
>> doing ...
>
> The company deploying it has publicly confirmed it -- likely because
> folks took exception to having their information "scanned". Lots of
> hits:
>
><https://www.ky3.com/2022/01/27/fact-finders-concerns-about-clerks-scanning-your-drivers-license/>

"The state launched an app last April. It’s called Show-Me Id. The app
verifies the authenticity of IDs simply by scanning a driver’s license
with a mobile phone’s camera."

It tells the user the ID is a proper state-issued card (as in, "it's not
a forgery"). It's almost as if the state recognizes that "spotting
fakes" is difficult, and now they've provided a service that lets people
corroborate with the state's database of issued cards.

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On 9/1/2023 11:29 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-09-01, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/1/2023 8:12 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> It's a stupid product that poorly addresses an artificial need.
>>>
>>> Thing is, it's only your assumption of what the device is actually
>>> doing ...
>>
>> The company deploying it has publicly confirmed it -- likely because
>> folks took exception to having their information "scanned". Lots of
>> hits:
>>
>> <https://www.ky3.com/2022/01/27/fact-finders-concerns-about-clerks-scanning-your-drivers-license/>
>
> "The state launched an app last April. It’s called Show-Me Id. The app
> verifies the authenticity of IDs simply by scanning a driver’s license
> with a mobile phone’s camera."
>
> It tells the user the ID is a proper state-issued card (as in, "it's not
> a forgery"). It's almost as if the state recognizes that "spotting
> fakes" is difficult, and now they've provided a service that lets people
> corroborate with the state's database of issued cards.

The legal question is, then, what liability the vendor has
to ensure that his "good faith effort" at verifying ID absolves
him from legal consequences? Is a business REQUIRED to use
this app to avoid prosecution for forged credentials?

The programs vary from state to state and business to business.

[Policies similarly vary regarding credit card purchases -- some
vendors want to know the CVV while others don't care.]

If I buy alcohol at a local supermarket, the clerk will ASK me
for my birthdate (it's almost always Jan 1 -- or the first of
some other month -- and the year varies based on my mood).

My license never leaves my wallet; she KNOWS that I'm
not 20-ish.

Yet, travel to this other store, down the road, and they want to
scan an ID to save time *reading* it.

I can't tell you what the *policies* are at the few *dozen* other
places that I pass traveling between the two locations that also
sell liquor (as supermarkets, package stores, quikie marts, etc.
all can peddle firewater).

Yet, *all* are compliant with local laws (else they couldn't operate).