I signed up with Comcast for, I think, 30 megabit cable internet. I
had a service problem a while back so they upgraded "for free" to 50.
I just ran a speed test and it's 920+38 Mbits. This is with a CAT5
cable right from their modem.

At work, we have a MonkeyBrains dish. We pay for 50+50 and get
500+500.

This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for,
same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits.

On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote:
> I signed up with Comcast for, I think, 30 megabit cable internet. I
> had a service problem a while back so they upgraded "for free" to 50.
> I just ran a speed test and it's 920+38 Mbits. This is with a CAT5
> cable right from their modem.

Is that a fibre to premises circuit? Mine out in the wilds could only
supply ~300M on a nominal 500M line on a "free" trial so I opted to fall
back to the 150Mbps service that I had ordered (I get 100% of that).

> At work, we have a MonkeyBrains dish. We pay for 50+50 and get
> 500+500.
>
> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for,
> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits.

I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK they
invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such speed upgrades
which means a lot of people are still on rather slow legacy speeds.

Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or ever
increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile data.

--
Martin Brown

On 9/12/2023 10:18 AM, John Larkin wrote:
> I signed up with Comcast for, I think, 30 megabit cable internet. I
> had a service problem a while back so they upgraded "for free" to 50.
> I just ran a speed test and it's 920+38 Mbits. This is with a CAT5
> cable right from their modem.
>
> At work, we have a MonkeyBrains dish. We pay for 50+50 and get
> 500+500.
>
> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for,
> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits.

A lot of those multi-hundred megabit connections will go to a wireless
router where all user devices are connected to it via 802.11n or
802.11ac in a super-cluttered RF environment, and topping out at 50 or
100 megabits throughput on a good day

On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 11:23:54 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 9/12/2023 10:18 AM, John Larkin wrote:
>> I signed up with Comcast for, I think, 30 megabit cable internet. I
>> had a service problem a while back so they upgraded "for free" to 50.
>> I just ran a speed test and it's 920+38 Mbits. This is with a CAT5
>> cable right from their modem.
>>
>> At work, we have a MonkeyBrains dish. We pay for 50+50 and get
>> 500+500.
>>
>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for,
>> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits.
>
>A lot of those multi-hundred megabit connections will go to a wireless
>router where all user devices are connected to it via 802.11n or
>802.11ac in a super-cluttered RF environment, and topping out at 50 or
>100 megabits throughput on a good day

We have a coax into the house, cable TV and internet and POTS.

My household WiFi is much slower, 7+3, downstairs in my office.
There's steel and concrete in the way.

On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote:
>> I signed up with Comcast for, I think, 30 megabit cable internet. I
>> had a service problem a while back so they upgraded "for free" to 50.
>> I just ran a speed test and it's 920+38 Mbits. This is with a CAT5
>> cable right from their modem.
>
>Is that a fibre to premises circuit?

No, cable TV coax.

> Mine out in the wilds could only
>supply ~300M on a nominal 500M line on a "free" trial so I opted to fall
>back to the 150Mbps service that I had ordered (I get 100% of that).
>
>> At work, we have a MonkeyBrains dish. We pay for 50+50 and get
>> 500+500.
>>
>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for,
>> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits.
>
>I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK they
>invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such speed upgrades
>which means a lot of people are still on rather slow legacy speeds.
>
>Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or ever
>increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile data.

It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up with
competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a couple sources
for Gbit fiber.

We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone twisted
pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it rained. Comcast
threw in POTS telephone service for free when we got their internet
service. I unplugged the phones because all the calls were spam.

On 9/12/2023 8:23 AM, bitrex wrote:
> A lot of those multi-hundred megabit connections will go to a wireless router
> where all user devices are connected to it via 802.11n or 802.11ac in a
> super-cluttered RF environment, and topping out at 50 or 100 megabits
> throughput on a good day

Like running POTS via a SLIC96. *Unused* bandwidth doesn't buy the
provider anything. Better to let customers THINK they have a good
deal and talk it up to their friends (cheaper than PAYING for advertising)
and, when the fixed bandwidth eventually gets consumed by those
referrals, they can fall back on the contract language:
"*UP* *TO* x Mbps"

We downgraded our (microwave) link -- but, keep it running at
advertised speed 24/7/365 (much to the chagrin of our provider
who would rather we pay for a fatter pipe that we use intermittently)

On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 11:24:03 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 9/12/2023 10:18 AM, John Larkin wrote:
> > I signed up with Comcast for, I think, 30 megabit cable internet. I
> > had a service problem a while back so they upgraded "for free" to 50.
> > I just ran a speed test and it's 920+38 Mbits. This is with a CAT5
> > cable right from their modem.
> >
> > At work, we have a MonkeyBrains dish. We pay for 50+50 and get
> > 500+500.
> >
> > This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for,
> > same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits.
> A lot of those multi-hundred megabit connections will go to a wireless
> router where all user devices are connected to it via 802.11n or
> 802.11ac in a super-cluttered RF environment, and topping out at 50 or
> 100 megabits throughput on a good day

I don't find speed tests to be very useful, because they are not measuring anything I use often. What I find, is that I can get a very high speed on the test, but when using the web for the things I mostly do, the delays are caused by latencies. A web page may have many MB or even GB of graphics involved, but they are all separate files. So they get downloaded when they get downloaded. Web pages often show up at a much lower speed number than the streaming speed tests show.

A streaming speed test might show something useful for watching videos. But I never need more than 12 or 15 Mbps for that. So, web based speed tests are not particularly useful to me, other than telling me there's nothing wrong with the connection.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote:

>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for,
>>> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits.
>>
>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK they
>> invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such speed upgrades
>> which means a lot of people are still on rather slow legacy speeds.
>>
>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or ever
>> increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile data.
>
> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up with
> competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a couple sources
> for Gbit fiber.

That seems very socialist. It surely makes more sense for them to
extract at least some additional income for increasing your speed. UK
telcos are considerably more mercenary about upgrading their customers.

> We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone twisted
> pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it rained. Comcast
> threw in POTS telephone service for free when we got their internet
> service. I unplugged the phones because all the calls were spam.

I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an all
digital VOIP service offered over their backhaul. This is causing a lot
of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out "Digital Voice" over an
unwilling population of mostly elderly people who depend on features of
copper based POTS for living independently. Notably that POTS phones
still work if the mains fails and various alarms and care on call
services will only work correctly with a true copper physical line.

ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is
something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my
village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper).

However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing
junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured
wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my
house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When
the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it!

In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice
rodents do for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't.

--
Martin Brown

On 9/14/2023 1:35 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> That seems very socialist. It surely makes more sense for them to extract at
> least some additional income for increasing your speed. UK telcos are
> considerably more mercenary about upgrading their customers.

Your *guaranteed* speed usually doesn't increase. Your "up to"
(maximum) speed can be increased for zero cost -- because they
don't have to GIVE you that bandwidth if they can find another
buyer!

> I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an all digital
> VOIP service offered over their backhaul.

Exactly. You can even find "home phone service" that's a fixed-in-place cell
phone wired to your home's internal wiring.

> This is causing a lot of trouble in
> the UK with BT rolling out "Digital Voice" over an unwilling population of
> mostly elderly people who depend on features of copper based POTS for living
> independently. Notably that POTS phones still work if the mains fails and
> various alarms and care on call services will only work correctly with a true
> copper physical line.

Yes. People move away from a dedicated pair to <whatever> and then
wonder why their *phone* is out.

City workers came out to install "speed humps" (broader than "humps")
in the neighborhood. The outer edges of each are to be marked
with an upright post, carrying "warning" markings (for drivers
who can't see the bright zebra-stripes painted on the ELEVATED hump).

These are supposed to be fastened to the asphalt in the gully
(allows water to flow around the hump) on each side of the hump
as that's so close to the edge of the road that no driver
should be that far over (except those who want to avoid the
hump with their OUTER set of wheels).

Joe Rocket Scientist opted to drive the post into the soil
in the "hell strip" alongside the hump

(<https://www.ecolandscaping.org/05/designing-ecological-landscapes/native-plants/hellstrip-plantings-creating-habitat-in-the-space-between-the-sidewalk-and-the-curb/>)

And, because they aren't supposed to work too hard, he uses
a pneumatic impact driver to ram the metal post through the
soil (which, admittedly, is VERY hard, here).

EXACTLY *through* the CATV feed for the neighborhood, taking
out every subscriber's TV, phone and internet service! Of course,
the pneumatic driver didn't flinch at the obstruction so there was
no way for Joe Rocket Scientist to realize what he'd just done...

> ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is something
> fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my village - no-one
> past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper).

(All) Our services are below grade. And, after 40 years, water infiltration
means things like phone go to shit. (even the power cables are overdue
for replacement)

Was a time when you couldn't carry on a VOICE conversation on our pair;
the noise floor... wasn't! <frown>

The solution, of course, is to just move you to a different pair
that *seems* better... *now*. The cost of actually running new cable
(or fiber) is just not in the cards for the folks who are just
trying to squeeze every last gasping nickel out of a rundown
technology.

[Which is amusing as their biggest asset *is* the last mile!]

> However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing junction
> box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured wire knitting
> and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my house. If the water
> table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When the guys come to sort it
> out it sounds like maracas when they shake it!
>
> In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice rodents do
> for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't.

Our "network access points" aren't particularly watertight
but the connections between the house and network are
behind rubber seals and high in the box (which would never be
able to HOLD water). The problem is always somewhere other
than at YOUR access point ("If we have to send someone out
and we discover its a problem in YOUR wiring, we will bill you
for the service visit!" "Well, the house is disconnected
from your network and you'll note the test YOU just ran
shows a fault so I'm REALLY confident this is on your dime!")

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown
>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote:
>
>>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for,
>>>> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits.
>>>
>>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK they
>>> invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such speed upgrades
>>> which means a lot of people are still on rather slow legacy speeds.
>>>
>>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or ever
>>> increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile data.
>>
>> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up with
>> competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a couple sources
>> for Gbit fiber.
>
>That seems very socialist.

Capitalist competition is the opposite of socialism. Compete or die.

It surely makes more sense for them to
>extract at least some additional income for increasing your speed. UK
>telcos are considerably more mercenary about upgrading their customers.
>
>> We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone twisted
>> pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it rained. Comcast
>> threw in POTS telephone service for free when we got their internet
>> service. I unplugged the phones because all the calls were spam.
>
>I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an all
>digital VOIP service offered over their backhaul. This is causing a lot
>of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out "Digital Voice" over an
>unwilling population of mostly elderly people who depend on features of
>copper based POTS for living independently. Notably that POTS phones
>still work if the mains fails and various alarms and care on call tly
>services will only work correctly with a true copper physical line.

The AT&T POTS twisted pair worked direcly into an old analog phone. I
guess some people here still do that. It was expensive, with a big
"long distance" charge. I think most people here just use cell phones,
with wi-fi connection at home.

>
>ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is
>something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my
>village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper).
>
>However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing
>junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured
>wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my
>house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When
>the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it!
>
>In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice
>rodents do for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't.

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:02:42 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown
><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown
>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for,
>>>>> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits.
>>>>
>>>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK they
>>>> invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such speed upgrades
>>>> which means a lot of people are still on rather slow legacy speeds.
>>>>
>>>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or ever
>>>> increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile data.
>>>
>>> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up with
>>> competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a couple sources
>>> for Gbit fiber.
>>
>>That seems very socialist.
>
>Capitalist competition is the opposite of socialism. Compete or die.
>
>
>
> It surely makes more sense for them to
>>extract at least some additional income for increasing your speed. UK
>>telcos are considerably more mercenary about upgrading their customers.
>>
>>> We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone twisted
>>> pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it rained. Comcast
>>> threw in POTS telephone service for free when we got their internet
>>> service. I unplugged the phones because all the calls were spam.
>>
>>I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an all
>>digital VOIP service offered over their backhaul. This is causing a lot
>>of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out "Digital Voice" over an
>>unwilling population of mostly elderly people who depend on features of
>>copper based POTS for living independently. Notably that POTS phones
>>still work if the mains fails and various alarms and care on call tly
>>services will only work correctly with a true copper physical line.
>
>The AT&T POTS twisted pair worked direcly into an old analog phone. I
>guess some people here still do that. It was expensive, with a big
>"long distance" charge. I think most people here just use cell phones,
>with wi-fi connection at home.

In the Boston area, I had exactly that until recently, and for those
same reasons, when the local traditional telephone company discounted
all copper service and forced everybody to optical fiber a year ago.
They also thought that they would just sweep in and install the new
equipment in some random place, but there was not space in my basement
for that, so I insisted on doing the physical install myself. They
were balking until I explained that I also had cable, and so if the
telco threw me out, my next call would be to their main competitor -
no install needed. So they sent me the stuff, and I installed it, and
added a dedicated power outlet for it to use.

If the local power goes out, this stops working unless one has a
backup battery, which they made quite awkward (must be a large
collection of ordinary alkaline D batteries; rechargeable not
available for homes, only businesses. So the fallback is cell phones,
until they run out of juice.

>>
>>ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is
>>something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my
>>village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper).

In the Boston area, many people had ADSL, and the general report was
that it never worked while it was raining. One assumes that a little
bit of water was getting into the legacy cables, and then it dried
out.

>>However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing
>>junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured
>>wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my
>>house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When
>>the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it!
>>
>>In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice
>>rodents go for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't.

Around here, the rodents seem to have color preferences, which is odd
because mostly this happened in permanently dark places. Must be
taste or smell.

Joe Gwinn

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 15:41:39 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:02:42 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown
>><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown
>>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for,
>>>>>> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK they
>>>>> invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such speed upgrades
>>>>> which means a lot of people are still on rather slow legacy speeds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or ever
>>>>> increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile data.
>>>>
>>>> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up with
>>>> competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a couple sources
>>>> for Gbit fiber.
>>>
>>>That seems very socialist.
>>
>>Capitalist competition is the opposite of socialism. Compete or die.
>>
>>
>>
>> It surely makes more sense for them to
>>>extract at least some additional income for increasing your speed. UK
>>>telcos are considerably more mercenary about upgrading their customers.
>>>
>>>> We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone twisted
>>>> pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it rained. Comcast
>>>> threw in POTS telephone service for free when we got their internet
>>>> service. I unplugged the phones because all the calls were spam.
>>>
>>>I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an all
>>>digital VOIP service offered over their backhaul. This is causing a lot
>>>of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out "Digital Voice" over an
>>>unwilling population of mostly elderly people who depend on features of
>>>copper based POTS for living independently. Notably that POTS phones
>>>still work if the mains fails and various alarms and care on call tly
>>>services will only work correctly with a true copper physical line.
>>
>>The AT&T POTS twisted pair worked direcly into an old analog phone. I
>>guess some people here still do that. It was expensive, with a big
>>"long distance" charge. I think most people here just use cell phones,
>>with wi-fi connection at home.
>
>In the Boston area, I had exactly that until recently, and for those
>same reasons, when the local traditional telephone company discounted
>all copper service and forced everybody to optical fiber a year ago.
>They also thought that they would just sweep in and install the new
>equipment in some random place, but there was not space in my basement
>for that, so I insisted on doing the physical install myself. They
>were balking until I explained that I also had cable, and so if the
>telco threw me out, my next call would be to their main competitor -
>no install needed. So they sent me the stuff, and I installed it, and
>added a dedicated power outlet for it to use.
>
>If the local power goes out, this stops working unless one has a
>backup battery, which they made quite awkward (must be a large
>collection of ordinary alkaline D batteries; rechargeable not
>available for homes, only businesses. So the fallback is cell phones,
>until they run out of juice.
>
>
>>>
>>>ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is
>>>something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my
>>>village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper).
>
>In the Boston area, many people had ADSL, and the general report was
>that it never worked while it was raining. One assumes that a little
>bit of water was getting into the legacy cables, and then it dried
>out.
>
>
>>>However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing
>>>junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured
>>>wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my
>>>house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When
>>>the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it!
>>>
>>>In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice
>>>rodents go for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't.
>
>Around here, the rodents seem to have color preferences, which is odd
>because mostly this happened in permanently dark places. Must be
>taste or smell.
>
>Joe Gwinn

Why would a squirrel do this?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8b8mz7ppsnypjkz/Cable_Chewed.jpg?raw=1

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 19:19:45 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 15:41:39 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:02:42 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown
>>><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown
>>>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed up for,
>>>>>>> same price. The backbone fibers must be moving petabits.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK they
>>>>>> invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such speed upgrades
>>>>>> which means a lot of people are still on rather slow legacy speeds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or ever
>>>>>> increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile data.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up with
>>>>> competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a couple sources
>>>>> for Gbit fiber.
>>>>
>>>>That seems very socialist.
>>>
>>>Capitalist competition is the opposite of socialism. Compete or die.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It surely makes more sense for them to
>>>>extract at least some additional income for increasing your speed. UK
>>>>telcos are considerably more mercenary about upgrading their customers.
>>>>
>>>>> We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone twisted
>>>>> pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it rained. Comcast
>>>>> threw in POTS telephone service for free when we got their internet
>>>>> service. I unplugged the phones because all the calls were spam.
>>>>
>>>>I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an all
>>>>digital VOIP service offered over their backhaul. This is causing a lot
>>>>of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out "Digital Voice" over an
>>>>unwilling population of mostly elderly people who depend on features of
>>>>copper based POTS for living independently. Notably that POTS phones
>>>>still work if the mains fails and various alarms and care on call tly
>>>>services will only work correctly with a true copper physical line.
>>>
>>>The AT&T POTS twisted pair worked direcly into an old analog phone. I
>>>guess some people here still do that. It was expensive, with a big
>>>"long distance" charge. I think most people here just use cell phones,
>>>with wi-fi connection at home.
>>
>>In the Boston area, I had exactly that until recently, and for those
>>same reasons, when the local traditional telephone company discounted
>>all copper service and forced everybody to optical fiber a year ago.
>>They also thought that they would just sweep in and install the new
>>equipment in some random place, but there was not space in my basement
>>for that, so I insisted on doing the physical install myself. They
>>were balking until I explained that I also had cable, and so if the
>>telco threw me out, my next call would be to their main competitor -
>>no install needed. So they sent me the stuff, and I installed it, and
>>added a dedicated power outlet for it to use.
>>
>>If the local power goes out, this stops working unless one has a
>>backup battery, which they made quite awkward (must be a large
>>collection of ordinary alkaline D batteries; rechargeable not
>>available for homes, only businesses. So the fallback is cell phones,
>>until they run out of juice.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is
>>>>something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my
>>>>village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper).
>>
>>In the Boston area, many people had ADSL, and the general report was
>>that it never worked while it was raining. One assumes that a little
>>bit of water was getting into the legacy cables, and then it dried
>>out.
>>
>>
>>>>However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing
>>>>junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured
>>>>wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my
>>>>house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When
>>>>the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it!
>>>>
>>>>In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice
>>>>rodents go for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't.
>>
>>Around here, the rodents seem to have color preferences, which is odd
>>because mostly this happened in permanently dark places. Must be
>>taste or smell.
>>
>>Joe Gwinn
>
>Why would a squirrel do this?
>
><https://www.dropbox.com/s/8b8mz7ppsnypjkz/Cable_Chewed.jpg?raw=1>

I dunno - never could get a word out of them.

But that looks to dainty for a squirrel. Looks more like mice or a
rat.

The automotive wires that had soy-based insulation of jackets were the
first to go. All rodents like them.

..<https://www.motorverso.com/which-cars-have-soy-based-wiring/>

Joe Gwinn

On 14/09/2023 11:02, Ricky wrote:
> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 4:35:14 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown
> wrote:
>> On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown
>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we signed
>>>>> up for, same price. The backbone fibers must be moving
>>>>> petabits.
>>>>
>>>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the UK
>>>> they invariably try to extract extra money out of you for such
>>>> speed upgrades which means a lot of people are still on rather
>>>> slow legacy speeds.
>>>>
>>>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant or
>>>> ever increasing amounts of money from you by increasing mobile
>>>> data.
>>>
>>> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep up
>>> with competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or a
>>> couple sources for Gbit fiber.
>> That seems very socialist. It surely makes more sense for them to
>> extract at least some additional income for increasing your speed.
>> UK telcos are considerably more mercenary about upgrading their
>> customers.
>
> That's one of the strangest comments I've heard anyone make... even
> here.
>
> Competition is the core of capitalism. If they are upgrading the
> neighborhood, it may well be they simply don't have the slower speed
> anymore, or that they've changed their rate structure so that the
> higher speed is the same price as the old lower speed.

Competition might be, but if the provider can get more money for
shareholders by selling the upgrade to their customers they will do so.
It is very anti-capitalist to give something away for nowt!

In the UK if you aren't talking to customer retention at least every
couple of years you will be ripped off. That applies to utilities,
mobile phone, internet and insurance. There is a big penalty in the UK
for being loyal to your supplier since they like to price gouge.
(most people don't seem to notice either)

Sometimes the only way to get a decent deal is to switch supplier.

As a concrete example our Village Hall gets its electricity from British
Gas because they were the cheapest electricity supplier when we last
looked at it (there is *no* mains gas in the village!).

>>> We had an AT&T internet connection over the traditional phone
>>> twisted pairs, but it was slow and expensive and died when it
>>> rained. Comcast threw in POTS telephone service for free when we
>>> got their internet service. I unplugged the phones because all
>>> the calls were spam.
>> I presume the POTS phone service is actually a POTS connector on an
>> all digital VOIP service offered over their backhaul.
>
> Maybe for new installations, but this is an area where the rule
> applies, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!". The POTS home
> connection works very well once in place. Even if they install
> fiber, they don't remove all the POTS wiring.

How odd! The reason for installing fibre in my village is precisely
because the corroding copper is on its last legs and I had about the
only good for 5Mbps copper line pair on the exchange. They couldn't take
it off me quickly enough once my fibre line was operational.

I'm on transitional drop cabling which is a figure of 8 profile with the
fibre on one half and a copper line pair on the other. In the air it has
a distinctive whirlygig appearance so you can tell at a glance who has
fibre. The copper line pair is not even terminated just cropped off.

There is a waiting list for copper circuits! They had already DACS'd all
the copper lines not used for internet connections a long time ago. They
tend to break one copper circuit for every three they try to mend.

>
>> This is causing a lot of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out
>> "Digital Voice" over an unwilling population of mostly elderly
>> people who depend on features of copper based POTS for living
>> independently. Notably that POTS phones still work if the mains
>> fails and various alarms and care on call services will only work
>> correctly with a true copper physical line.
>
> Yeah, a friend moved into a retirement community some years ago and
> they use fiber to the home, but he's actually has voice with his
> cable service. No 911 location info and when power goes out, so does
> the phone. I gave him a UPS for his cable box, and a non-powered
> phone plugged directly into the unit. So, as long as the rest of the
> cable system works, he can get a call out. But, they've also given
> him an emergency alert unit that is supposed to work in a power
> failure. I just don't know who it summons.

It has become a bit of a mess. They can't source enough batteries for
the old people they are trying to upgrade and have left vulnerable
people with no phone for way too long. If they had standardised the
optical receiver and router to take power from USB C it would be easier
but as it is they each require their own random choice of voltage and
connector (and two mains sockets nearby to power them)!

--
Martin Brown

On 14/09/2023 20:41, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:02:42 -0700, John Larkin
> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown
>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>

>>> ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is
>>> something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my
>>> village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper).
>
> In the Boston area, many people had ADSL, and the general report was
> that it never worked while it was raining. One assumes that a little
> bit of water was getting into the legacy cables, and then it dried
> out.

We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone
lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as in
flooding). Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help.

They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to last
5 or 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they
protect wet wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with
hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies
ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave
has been claiming these dead zones for some time - farmers need it.
>>> However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing
>>> junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured
>>> wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my
>>> house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When
>>> the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it!
>>>
>>> In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice
>>> rodents go for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't.
>
> Around here, the rodents seem to have color preferences, which is odd
> because mostly this happened in permanently dark places. Must be
> taste or smell.

There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to guide
their choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems on radio
telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen.

--
Martin Brown

On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 6:21:17 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 14/09/2023 20:41, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> > On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:02:42 -0700, John Larkin
> > <jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown
> >> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
>
> >>> ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is
> >>> something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my
> >>> village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper).
> >
> > In the Boston area, many people had ADSL, and the general report was
> > that it never worked while it was raining. One assumes that a little
> > bit of water was getting into the legacy cables, and then it dried
> > out.
> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US

LOL You talk as if the US were the size of a city! Do you think the southwest deserts have the same rainfall as the pacific northwest? Is New England the same as Florida? The US is hugely varied.

> and yet our phone
> lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as in
> flooding).

I thought you were saying how crappy your phone lines are with corrosion and general deterioration??? I'm confused.

> Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help.
>
> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to last
> 5 or 10 years before they fail badly again.

I don't get that. In the US, we have junction boxes that last for many decades without any attention. Maybe the UK needs to outsource some of this?

> I'm not sure how they
> protect wet wires from corrosion though.

The best way to protect them is to keep the junctions dry in water tight boxes. But you've already said this is beyond the state of technology in the UK.

> There are places near me with
> hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies
> ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps.

That is easily fixed by proper installation techniques. Again, perhaps the UK should outsource this if you can't get it right after how many decades???

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 9/15/2023 3:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone lines
> generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as in flooding).
> Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help.

Are your lines fed from above (e.g., flying off telephone poles)?
Or, do they travel below grade, surfacing just before entering the
subscriber's premises?

Water frequently infiltrates our buried cables (including the 100+ pair
that runs the length of the street, below grade). So, a (rare!) rain
can leave you with a noisey line that resolves itself BEFORE the lineman
can get around to actually checking the line, in person.

Connections to the premises wiring are done above ground in a
"telephone network interface" box: the utility's feed is
terminated in a pair (typically) of RJ11 jacks. The premises
wiring presents as one or more RJ11 plugs. So, a subscriber can
"unplug" their wiring from the network to allow the utility
to check THEIR wiring without the subscriber's impacting the test.

> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to last 5 or 10
> years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they protect wet wires
> from corrosion though. There are places near me with hybrid copper meets
> aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies ADSL. So bad that some don't
> even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave has been claiming these dead zones for
> some time - farmers need it.

Our problem is with the hundreds of feet of 100(?) pair cable
that feeds the neighborhood from the main junction box at the entrance to
the subdivision. Lots of places for a partial short or line imbalance
to present.

(The main cable surfaces every couple of houses to allow access to
the pairs in a small -- 20? circuit -- "pedestal" usually shared
by two adjacent homes. These are frequently not closed properly
as they sit *on* the ground and dirt often hampers re-placing the
cover -- ours has a set f very large tie-wraps holding it closed...
with a 1" gap on each side)

<https://i.imgur.com/RlQhw7Y.jpg>
<https://prod-content-care-community-cdn.sprinklr.com/d80f176d-2bd5-487b-b539-b24b3ede5ed6/IMG_20220623_200918-41f1502e-e236-4064-ae22-0aeb98bb665b-530822081.jpg>
<https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fgpkus8sr6jm41.jpg>

(note the premises wiring connects to INDIVIDUAL conductors that
present on threaded "studs", visible on the left side of the
last photo -- perhaps more visible in the second?)

For these boxes to be in this state (exposed) is common.
And, for them to vary throughout the neighborhood as equipment
is selectively upgraded.

> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to guide their
> choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems on radio telescope
> cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen.

Various "burrowing creatures" are more of a problem with the
AC mains (which are also below grade). Part of the service
procedure for each of the ground-mounted transformers is to
fill the exposed earth *inside* the enclosure with mortar
and wet it to form a bit of a crust to discourage the critters
from gaining entry to the high voltage wiring (fried critters!).

Packrats tend to enjoy feasting on the wire in automobiles,
accessing that from the underside.

On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 11:21:06 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 14/09/2023 20:41, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:02:42 -0700, John Larkin
>> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:35:03 +0100, Martin Brown
>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>
>>>> ADSL in its various forms shouldn't be that unstable unless there is
>>>> something fundamentally wrong with the local wiring (as there is in my
>>>> village - no-one past me gets more than 2Mbps ADSL on copper).
>>
>> In the Boston area, many people had ADSL, and the general report was
>> that it never worked while it was raining. One assumes that a little
>> bit of water was getting into the legacy cables, and then it dried
>> out.
>
>We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone
>lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as in
>flooding). Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help.

I would assume that in both countries, cable designs suiting their
local environments were chosen.

>They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to last
>5 or 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they
>protect wet wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with
>hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies
>ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave
>has been claiming these dead zones for some time - farmers need it.

I don't know of any aluminum telephone wire in the US, ever. Only
copper alloys. (Power wiring is different.)

>>>> However since I now have a fibre connection I don't care. The failing
>>>> junction box (think black plastic policeman's helmet with multicoloured
>>>> wire knitting and joints inside) is buried in the verge in front of my
>>>> house. If the water table rises it floods and shorts out circuits. When
>>>> the guys come to sort it out it sounds like maracas when they shake it!
>>>>
>>>> In theory I think it is supposed to be water tight but in practice
>>>> rodents go for the catches or seals and after a few years it isn't.
>>
>> Around here, the rodents seem to have color preferences, which is odd
>> because mostly this happened in permanently dark places. Must be
>> taste or smell.
>
>There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to guide
>their choice of exactly what to nibble.

I've heard lots of theories on why rodents like to chew on wire, but
none has ever been shown to be more likely than any other, let alone
proven.

> We solved our problems on radio
>telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen.

That would certainly do it.

In the US, the old dry multi-pair telephone cables were pressurized
with nitrogen, largely to exclude water despite flaws in the jacket.
One would see the nitrogen tanks strapped to telephone poles here and
there. The advent of flooded or filled cables rendered the nitrogen
bottles obsolete. The filling goop is a mineral oil gelled with a
mineral wax.

In the old days, the twisted pairs were copper insulated with dry pulp
paper (newsprint paper basically) cable sheaths were extruded lead,
and the joints were soft-soldered by hand.

Nowadays, the twisted pairs are insulated with low density
polyethylene, and the cable jacket is heavy polyethylene, often with
an aluminum shield/protector just underneath.

Joe Gwinn

On 15/09/2023 16:39, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/15/2023 3:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone
>> lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as
>> in flooding). Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help.
>
> Are your lines fed from above (e.g., flying off telephone poles)?
> Or, do they travel below grade, surfacing just before entering the
> subscriber's premises?

Modern build is usually the latter but where I am the cables travel
underground from the exchange to the village and then up onto poles
inside the village. We are a bit unusual in that our lines are archaic
"Exchange Only" lines with no cabinet between us and the exchange.

Electricity also comes in overhead on the same set of poles which makes
it difficult for the telco - they have to bring in a cherry picker to
work on their signal level cables at height because of the live wires!
>
> Water frequently infiltrates our buried cables (including the 100+ pair
> that runs the length of the street, below grade).  So, a (rare!) rain
> can leave you with a noisey line that resolves itself BEFORE the lineman
> can get around to actually checking the line, in person.

That is pretty much the situation here except that it is a lot wetter
and the groundwater is mildly alkaline and so corrosive. In addition
tree branches can strip the insulation off the overhead cable runs which
makes it very noisy and can break conductors.

> Connections to the premises wiring are done above ground in a
> "telephone network interface" box:  the utility's feed is
> terminated in a pair (typically) of RJ11 jacks.  The premises
> wiring presents as one or more RJ11 plugs.  So, a subscriber can
> "unplug" their wiring from the network to allow the utility
> to check THEIR wiring without the subscriber's impacting the test.

That is how modern installs are done with a so called master socket so
you can isolate the house wiring and plug into the test socket. You are
supposed to do this before reporting a fault. My master POTS socket is
"conveniently" located at the far end of the loft where the old copper
cable enters the house. The new fibre install comes from a different
pole and has a splice box at ground level with a fibre up to my office.

Prehistoric ones were little more than a 4 way terminal block with a
Bakelite soap bar shaped cover over the top.

>> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to
>> last 5 or 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they
>> protect wet wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with
>> hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies
>> ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave
>> has been claiming these dead zones for some time - farmers need it.
>
> Our problem is with the hundreds of feet of 100(?) pair cable
> that feeds the neighborhood from the main junction box at the entrance to
> the subdivision.  Lots of places for a partial short or line imbalance
> to present.

It is almost invariably the wet corroded joints that cause trouble or
rodents chewing off the insulation. Ours are incredibly fragile now and
any disturbance from working on a fault tends to break something else.

It got so bad at one point that they had to ship in additional POTS
engineers from outside the county to get on top of pending repairs.

I haven't been able to find a picture of our underground configuration
(it is quite rare now) but this one of a normal passive BT cabinet isn't
too dissimilar if you image no supporting structure and the whole lot of
multicoloured knitting stuffed randomly into a double width manhole.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cablegore/comments/333ek9/inside_a_bt_telephone_cabinet/

>> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to
>> guide their choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems
>> on radio telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen.
>
> Various "burrowing creatures" are more of a problem with the
> AC mains (which are also below grade).  Part of the service
> procedure for each of the ground-mounted transformers is to
> fill the exposed earth *inside* the enclosure with mortar
> and wet it to form a bit of a crust to discourage the critters
> from gaining entry to the high voltage wiring (fried critters!).
>
> Packrats tend to enjoy feasting on the wire in automobiles,
> accessing that from the underside.

Apparently pine martens are keen on BMW brake hose and wiring insulation
(and they are now moving into my area of the UK).

https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/261913-pine-martens-brake-pipes.html

>

--
Martin Brown

On 15/09/2023 16:44, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 11:21:06 +0100, Martin Brown
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 14/09/2023 20:41, Joe Gwinn wrote:

>>> Around here, the rodents seem to have color preferences, which is odd
>>> because mostly this happened in permanently dark places. Must be
>>> taste or smell.
>>
>> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to guide
>> their choice of exactly what to nibble.
>
> I've heard lots of theories on why rodents like to chew on wire, but
> none has ever been shown to be more likely than any other, let alone
> proven.

We had a working theory that somehow they knew the price per metre and
generally preferred the most expensive one that they could find!
(or the one that was most difficult to replace)

>> We solved our problems on radio
>> telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen.
>
> That would certainly do it.

It also meant there was no variation in humidity to affect timing or
signal phase (which was the main reason for doing it).

--
Martin Brown

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 11:51:56 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 15/09/2023 16:39, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/15/2023 3:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone
>>> lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as
>>> in flooding). Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help.
>>
>> Are your lines fed from above (e.g., flying off telephone poles)?
>> Or, do they travel below grade, surfacing just before entering the
>> subscriber's premises?
>
>Modern build is usually the latter but where I am the cables travel
>underground from the exchange to the village and then up onto poles
>inside the village. We are a bit unusual in that our lines are archaic
>"Exchange Only" lines with no cabinet between us and the exchange.
>
>Electricity also comes in overhead on the same set of poles which makes
>it difficult for the telco - they have to bring in a cherry picker to
>work on their signal level cables at height because of the live wires!
>>
>> Water frequently infiltrates our buried cables (including the 100+ pair
>> that runs the length of the street, below grade).  So, a (rare!) rain
>> can leave you with a noisey line that resolves itself BEFORE the lineman
>> can get around to actually checking the line, in person.
>
>That is pretty much the situation here except that it is a lot wetter
>and the groundwater is mildly alkaline and so corrosive. In addition
>tree branches can strip the insulation off the overhead cable runs which
>makes it very noisy and can break conductors.
>
>> Connections to the premises wiring are done above ground in a
>> "telephone network interface" box:  the utility's feed is
>> terminated in a pair (typically) of RJ11 jacks.  The premises
>> wiring presents as one or more RJ11 plugs.  So, a subscriber can
>> "unplug" their wiring from the network to allow the utility
>> to check THEIR wiring without the subscriber's impacting the test.
>
>That is how modern installs are done with a so called master socket so
>you can isolate the house wiring and plug into the test socket. You are
>supposed to do this before reporting a fault. My master POTS socket is
>"conveniently" located at the far end of the loft where the old copper
>cable enters the house. The new fibre install comes from a different
>pole and has a splice box at ground level with a fibre up to my office.
>
>Prehistoric ones were little more than a 4 way terminal block with a
>Bakelite soap bar shaped cover over the top.
>
>>> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to
>>> last 5 or 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they
>>> protect wet wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with
>>> hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies
>>> ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave
>>> has been claiming these dead zones for some time - farmers need it.
>>
>> Our problem is with the hundreds of feet of 100(?) pair cable
>> that feeds the neighborhood from the main junction box at the entrance to
>> the subdivision.  Lots of places for a partial short or line imbalance
>> to present.
>
>It is almost invariably the wet corroded joints that cause trouble or
>rodents chewing off the insulation. Ours are incredibly fragile now and
>any disturbance from working on a fault tends to break something else.
>
>It got so bad at one point that they had to ship in additional POTS
>engineers from outside the county to get on top of pending repairs.
>
>I haven't been able to find a picture of our underground configuration
>(it is quite rare now) but this one of a normal passive BT cabinet isn't
>too dissimilar if you image no supporting structure and the whole lot of
>multicoloured knitting stuffed randomly into a double width manhole.
>
>https://www.reddit.com/r/cablegore/comments/333ek9/inside_a_bt_telephone_cabinet/
>
>>> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to
>>> guide their choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems
>>> on radio telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen.
>>
>> Various "burrowing creatures" are more of a problem with the
>> AC mains (which are also below grade).  Part of the service
>> procedure for each of the ground-mounted transformers is to
>> fill the exposed earth *inside* the enclosure with mortar
>> and wet it to form a bit of a crust to discourage the critters
>> from gaining entry to the high voltage wiring (fried critters!).
>>
>> Packrats tend to enjoy feasting on the wire in automobiles,
>> accessing that from the underside.
>
>Apparently pine martens are keen on BMW brake hose and wiring insulation
>(and they are now moving into my area of the UK).
>
>https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/261913-pine-martens-brake-pipes.html
>
>>

I collect pictures of disgusting wiring.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rdbz4ayuw0w60ch1f4dot/h?rlkey=k14c22nkj1leclay7itlpk28z&dl=0

lørdag den 16. september 2023 kl. 13.19.58 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 11:51:56 +0100, Martin Brown
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On 15/09/2023 16:39, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 9/15/2023 3:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> >>> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone
> >>> lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as
> >>> in flooding). Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help.
> >>
> >> Are your lines fed from above (e.g., flying off telephone poles)?
> >> Or, do they travel below grade, surfacing just before entering the
> >> subscriber's premises?
> >
> >Modern build is usually the latter but where I am the cables travel
> >underground from the exchange to the village and then up onto poles
> >inside the village. We are a bit unusual in that our lines are archaic
> >"Exchange Only" lines with no cabinet between us and the exchange.
> >
> >Electricity also comes in overhead on the same set of poles which makes
> >it difficult for the telco - they have to bring in a cherry picker to
> >work on their signal level cables at height because of the live wires!
> >>
> >> Water frequently infiltrates our buried cables (including the 100+ pair
> >> that runs the length of the street, below grade). So, a (rare!) rain
> >> can leave you with a noisey line that resolves itself BEFORE the lineman
> >> can get around to actually checking the line, in person.
> >
> >That is pretty much the situation here except that it is a lot wetter
> >and the groundwater is mildly alkaline and so corrosive. In addition
> >tree branches can strip the insulation off the overhead cable runs which
> >makes it very noisy and can break conductors.
> >
> >> Connections to the premises wiring are done above ground in a
> >> "telephone network interface" box: the utility's feed is
> >> terminated in a pair (typically) of RJ11 jacks. The premises
> >> wiring presents as one or more RJ11 plugs. So, a subscriber can
> >> "unplug" their wiring from the network to allow the utility
> >> to check THEIR wiring without the subscriber's impacting the test.
> >
> >That is how modern installs are done with a so called master socket so
> >you can isolate the house wiring and plug into the test socket. You are
> >supposed to do this before reporting a fault. My master POTS socket is
> >"conveniently" located at the far end of the loft where the old copper
> >cable enters the house. The new fibre install comes from a different
> >pole and has a splice box at ground level with a fibre up to my office.
> >
> >Prehistoric ones were little more than a 4 way terminal block with a
> >Bakelite soap bar shaped cover over the top.
> >
> >>> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to
> >>> last 5 or 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they
> >>> protect wet wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with
> >>> hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies
> >>> ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave
> >>> has been claiming these dead zones for some time - farmers need it.
> >>
> >> Our problem is with the hundreds of feet of 100(?) pair cable
> >> that feeds the neighborhood from the main junction box at the entrance to
> >> the subdivision. Lots of places for a partial short or line imbalance
> >> to present.
> >
> >It is almost invariably the wet corroded joints that cause trouble or
> >rodents chewing off the insulation. Ours are incredibly fragile now and
> >any disturbance from working on a fault tends to break something else.
> >
> >It got so bad at one point that they had to ship in additional POTS
> >engineers from outside the county to get on top of pending repairs.
> >
> >I haven't been able to find a picture of our underground configuration
> >(it is quite rare now) but this one of a normal passive BT cabinet isn't
> >too dissimilar if you image no supporting structure and the whole lot of
> >multicoloured knitting stuffed randomly into a double width manhole.
> >
> >https://www.reddit.com/r/cablegore/comments/333ek9/inside_a_bt_telephone_cabinet/
> >
> >>> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to
> >>> guide their choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems
> >>> on radio telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen..
> >>
> >> Various "burrowing creatures" are more of a problem with the
> >> AC mains (which are also below grade). Part of the service
> >> procedure for each of the ground-mounted transformers is to
> >> fill the exposed earth *inside* the enclosure with mortar
> >> and wet it to form a bit of a crust to discourage the critters
> >> from gaining entry to the high voltage wiring (fried critters!).
> >>
> >> Packrats tend to enjoy feasting on the wire in automobiles,
> >> accessing that from the underside.
> >
> >Apparently pine martens are keen on BMW brake hose and wiring insulation
> >(and they are now moving into my area of the UK).
> >
> >https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/261913-pine-martens-brake-pipes.html
> >
> >>
> I collect pictures of disgusting wiring.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rdbz4ayuw0w60ch1f4dot/h?rlkey=k14c22nkj1leclay7itlpk28z&dl=0

looks like artwork made by craftsmen compared to the stuff you see from India

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 04:29:00 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>lørdag den 16. september 2023 kl. 13.19.58 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
>> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 11:51:56 +0100, Martin Brown
>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >On 15/09/2023 16:39, Don Y wrote:
>> >> On 9/15/2023 3:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>> >>> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone
>> >>> lines generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as
>> >>> in flooding). Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help.
>> >>
>> >> Are your lines fed from above (e.g., flying off telephone poles)?
>> >> Or, do they travel below grade, surfacing just before entering the
>> >> subscriber's premises?
>> >
>> >Modern build is usually the latter but where I am the cables travel
>> >underground from the exchange to the village and then up onto poles
>> >inside the village. We are a bit unusual in that our lines are archaic
>> >"Exchange Only" lines with no cabinet between us and the exchange.
>> >
>> >Electricity also comes in overhead on the same set of poles which makes
>> >it difficult for the telco - they have to bring in a cherry picker to
>> >work on their signal level cables at height because of the live wires!
>> >>
>> >> Water frequently infiltrates our buried cables (including the 100+ pair
>> >> that runs the length of the street, below grade). So, a (rare!) rain
>> >> can leave you with a noisey line that resolves itself BEFORE the lineman
>> >> can get around to actually checking the line, in person.
>> >
>> >That is pretty much the situation here except that it is a lot wetter
>> >and the groundwater is mildly alkaline and so corrosive. In addition
>> >tree branches can strip the insulation off the overhead cable runs which
>> >makes it very noisy and can break conductors.
>> >
>> >> Connections to the premises wiring are done above ground in a
>> >> "telephone network interface" box: the utility's feed is
>> >> terminated in a pair (typically) of RJ11 jacks. The premises
>> >> wiring presents as one or more RJ11 plugs. So, a subscriber can
>> >> "unplug" their wiring from the network to allow the utility
>> >> to check THEIR wiring without the subscriber's impacting the test.
>> >
>> >That is how modern installs are done with a so called master socket so
>> >you can isolate the house wiring and plug into the test socket. You are
>> >supposed to do this before reporting a fault. My master POTS socket is
>> >"conveniently" located at the far end of the loft where the old copper
>> >cable enters the house. The new fibre install comes from a different
>> >pole and has a splice box at ground level with a fibre up to my office.
>> >
>> >Prehistoric ones were little more than a 4 way terminal block with a
>> >Bakelite soap bar shaped cover over the top.
>> >
>> >>> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to
>> >>> last 5 or 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they
>> >>> protect wet wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with
>> >>> hybrid copper meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies
>> >>> ADSL. So bad that some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave
>> >>> has been claiming these dead zones for some time - farmers need it.
>> >>
>> >> Our problem is with the hundreds of feet of 100(?) pair cable
>> >> that feeds the neighborhood from the main junction box at the entrance to
>> >> the subdivision. Lots of places for a partial short or line imbalance
>> >> to present.
>> >
>> >It is almost invariably the wet corroded joints that cause trouble or
>> >rodents chewing off the insulation. Ours are incredibly fragile now and
>> >any disturbance from working on a fault tends to break something else.
>> >
>> >It got so bad at one point that they had to ship in additional POTS
>> >engineers from outside the county to get on top of pending repairs.
>> >
>> >I haven't been able to find a picture of our underground configuration
>> >(it is quite rare now) but this one of a normal passive BT cabinet isn't
>> >too dissimilar if you image no supporting structure and the whole lot of
>> >multicoloured knitting stuffed randomly into a double width manhole.
>> >
>> >https://www.reddit.com/r/cablegore/comments/333ek9/inside_a_bt_telephone_cabinet/
>> >
>> >>> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to
>> >>> guide their choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems
>> >>> on radio telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen.
>> >>
>> >> Various "burrowing creatures" are more of a problem with the
>> >> AC mains (which are also below grade). Part of the service
>> >> procedure for each of the ground-mounted transformers is to
>> >> fill the exposed earth *inside* the enclosure with mortar
>> >> and wet it to form a bit of a crust to discourage the critters
>> >> from gaining entry to the high voltage wiring (fried critters!).
>> >>
>> >> Packrats tend to enjoy feasting on the wire in automobiles,
>> >> accessing that from the underside.
>> >
>> >Apparently pine martens are keen on BMW brake hose and wiring insulation
>> >(and they are now moving into my area of the UK).
>> >
>> >https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/261913-pine-martens-brake-pipes.html
>> >
>> >>
>> I collect pictures of disgusting wiring.
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rdbz4ayuw0w60ch1f4dot/h?rlkey=k14c22nkj1leclay7itlpk28z&dl=0
>
>looks like artwork made by craftsmen compared to the stuff you see from India

San Francico has stunning views that are usually ruined by hideous
wiring. It's being undergrounded, which should be mostly done in a
couple of hundred years.

On 15/09/2023 15:55, Ricky wrote:
> On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 6:13:24 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown
> wrote:
>> On 14/09/2023 11:02, Ricky wrote:
>>> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 4:35:14 AM UTC-4, Martin
>>> Brown wrote:
>>>> On 12/09/2023 17:57, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:33:31 +0100, Martin Brown
>>>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/09/2023 15:18, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> This seems to be a trend, much faster internet than we
>>>>>>> signed up for, same price. The backbone fibers must be
>>>>>>> moving petabits.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm surprised that they upgrade you 10x for free. In the
>>>>>> UK they invariably try to extract extra money out of you
>>>>>> for such speed upgrades which means a lot of people are
>>>>>> still on rather slow legacy speeds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Likewise with phone contracts they try to extract constant
>>>>>> or ever increasing amounts of money from you by increasing
>>>>>> mobile data.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems like suppliers here are upgrading for free to keep
>>>>> up with competition. We could use cable, a microwave dish, or
>>>>> a couple sources for Gbit fiber.
>>>> That seems very socialist. It surely makes more sense for them
>>>> to extract at least some additional income for increasing your
>>>> speed. UK telcos are considerably more mercenary about
>>>> upgrading their customers.
>>>
>>> That's one of the strangest comments I've heard anyone make...
>>> even here.
>>>
>>> Competition is the core of capitalism. If they are upgrading the
>>> neighborhood, it may well be they simply don't have the slower
>>> speed anymore, or that they've changed their rate structure so
>>> that the higher speed is the same price as the old lower speed.

>> Competition might be, but if the provider can get more money for
>> shareholders by selling the upgrade to their customers they will do
>> so. It is very anti-capitalist to give something away for nowt!
>
> Exactly, "IF" is the magic word. But you don't seem to understand
> what I'm saying, so I won't bother you with it further.

It is quite simple they offer the upgrade to their customers *for an
incremental price* rather than just giving it away. That is how it
always works in the UK which is why plenty are stuck on lower speeds
than the local lines can support.

Leaving the customers where they are is a valid option - most punters
have no idea what speed they are actually getting. So long as it will
stream a couple of HD channels they mostly don't care. Gamers are a bit
more fussy since they like bandwidth and low latency.

>> In the UK if you aren't talking to customer retention at least
>> every couple of years you will be ripped off. That applies to
>> utilities, mobile phone, internet and insurance. There is a big
>> penalty in the UK for being loyal to your supplier since they like
>> to price gouge. (most people don't seem to notice either)
>
> Perhaps you could read what I wrote and make more effort to
> understand it. If you continue to focus on your own thoughts, you
> can't learn anything new.

You seem incapable of reading or understanding what I wrote.

The sales pitch is simple enough. Give us an extra $1/$2 a month and you
can have 2x/5x the speed you have at the moment. Otherwise they get
nothing more until they either ask for it or threaten to leave for a
competitor. Normal SOP for skinners and trappers in sales speak.

>>> Maybe for new installations, but this is an area where the rule
>>> applies, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!". The POTS home
>>> connection works very well once in place. Even if they install
>>> fiber, they don't remove all the POTS wiring.

>> How odd! The reason for installing fibre in my village is
>> precisely because the corroding copper is on its last legs and I
>> had about the only good for 5Mbps copper line pair on the exchange.
>> They couldn't take it off me quickly enough once my fibre line was
>> operational.
>
> Sorry, by "copper", do you mean POTS? If you have significant
> corrosion in copper lines, there's something very wrong with that.

Yes copper = POTS (with ADSL2 or VDSL). The lines are over 60 years old
in my area and spend a lot of time with alkaline ground water getting
into joints. Most but not quite all failures are in the junction boxes.

Overhead lines sometimes die from tree damage or stress cracking.

> The POTS to my house was installed around 80 years ago and has never
> failed from corrosion. I've never heard of a POTS line failing from
> corrosion. Maybe this is something unique to the UK. Do they mix in
> other elements into your copper wires?

Not commonly. But groundwater has enough dissolved salts to corrode
copper quite comprehensively.
The main problem is that the cables are rather brittle with age.

>> I'm on transitional drop cabling which is a figure of 8 profile
>> with the fibre on one half and a copper line pair on the other. In
>> the air it has a distinctive whirlygig appearance so you can tell
>> at a glance who has fibre. The copper line pair is not even
>> terminated just cropped off.
>>
>> There is a waiting list for copper circuits! They had already
>> DACS'd all the copper lines not used for internet connections a
>> long time ago. They tend to break one copper circuit for every
>> three they try to mend.
>
> Wow! That's some bad copper. Someone should investigate this. It

Some of it is very old and combines the worst of underground and
overhead so that damage by trees and rodents/water ingress are common.

They are in the process of junking the UK copper circuits entirely -
that is the whole point of the fibre roll out. Officially due to be
completed in 2025 (it has no chance at all of happening like that).

> may be something like the massive installation in the UK of foil
> wrapped power lines where the foil was used as one of the conductors.
> It was aluminum and corroded over a few years, requiring massive
> replacements. Or am I getting a detail wrong on that? Sounds very
> similar to me.

There were some telco installations of twisted pair aluminium into
systems that were mostly copper and that is disastrous for ADSL. The
oxide layer of the aluminium partially rectifies the RF and the
dissimilar metals cause fast corrosion if they get slightly damp.

BT doesn't even admit to these really bad circuits existing. A
neighbouring village has this problem - peer to peer microwave links for
internet have pretty much taken over that area completely now.

AFAIK new power distribution is now almost entirely aluminium but it is
on a plaited 3 or 4 core insulated cable with a steel hawser down the
core at least for the low tension household service.

Some of our mains is on bare conductors, the old rubberised copper long
since having perished and dropped off. Domestic mains voltages are
vertical on the pole so it would arc and spark in the wet as pieces of
wet insulation flapped about in the breeze sometimes touching another
phase or neutral.

>>>> This is causing a lot of trouble in the UK with BT rolling out
>>>> "Digital Voice" over an unwilling population of mostly elderly
>>>> people who depend on features of copper based POTS for living
>>>> independently. Notably that POTS phones still work if the
>>>> mains fails and various alarms and care on call services will
>>>> only work correctly with a true copper physical line.
>>>
>>> Yeah, a friend moved into a retirement community some years ago
>>> and they use fiber to the home, but he's actually has voice with
>>> his cable service. No 911 location info and when power goes out,
>>> so does the phone. I gave him a UPS for his cable box, and a
>>> non-powered phone plugged directly into the unit. So, as long as
>>> the rest of the cable system works, he can get a call out. But,
>>> they've also given him an emergency alert unit that is supposed
>>> to work in a power failure. I just don't know who it summons.
>> It has become a bit of a mess. They can't source enough batteries
>> for the old people they are trying to upgrade and have left
>> vulnerable people with no phone for way too long. If they had
>> standardised the optical receiver and router to take power from USB
>> C it would be easier but as it is they each require their own
>> random choice of voltage and connector (and two mains sockets
>> nearby to power them)!
>
> So, on top of everything else, the UK has a battery shortage???

On 9/16/2023 3:51 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 15/09/2023 16:39, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/15/2023 3:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> We must surely have a lot more rain than in the US and yet our phone lines
>>> generally do hold up for ADSL unless it gets very very wet (as in flooding).
>>> Being on the wrong side of the beck doesn't help.
>>
>> Are your lines fed from above (e.g., flying off telephone poles)?
>> Or, do they travel below grade, surfacing just before entering the
>> subscriber's premises?
>
> Modern build is usually the latter but where I am the cables travel underground
> from the exchange to the village and then up onto poles inside the village. We

... *to* the village? Are there so few subscribers there that the CO
isn't located *in* the village? ("village" has different connotations,
depending on where it is used, here; some villages are the size of towns;
some towns the size of villages)

We're about 250 sq miles (city limits; metro area considerably larger
but served by several municipalities) so there are many COs within our
borders:
<https://www.thecentraloffice.com/AZ/TUSmetro.htm>

Most COs (in the places I've lived) have lines coming into a
room in the basement, then up to a "wiring room" where all of
the pairs are laid out (on punchdown blocks?).

When/if they ever surface, I've never directly observed. And, nowadays,
you don't know if they haven't run fiber out to a remote concentrator...

> are a bit unusual in that our lines are archaic "Exchange Only" lines with no
> cabinet between us and the exchange.

So, any line repair/reconfiguration is done AT the CO?

There's a large (20 sq ft) wiring cabinet at the entrance to our
subdivisions that terminates all of the pairs from the CO *to*
the pairs feeding the subscribers. There is ALWAYS a telco
service vehicle parked nearby "fixing" something (I'm guessing
200 homes in the subdivision?)

> Electricity also comes in overhead on the same set of poles which makes it
> difficult for the telco - they have to bring in a cherry picker to work on
> their signal level cables at height because of the live wires!

Hmmm... the places I've lived with overhead wiring have usually
had the high tension wires at the top of the poles (imagine a T)
with cable and phone down much lower -- like halfway. They transit
to the home over separate paths so even if you had to access the
cable at the house, there would be sufficient clearance from the
mains feed.

>> Water frequently infiltrates our buried cables (including the 100+ pair
>> that runs the length of the street, below grade).  So, a (rare!) rain
>> can leave you with a noisey line that resolves itself BEFORE the lineman
>> can get around to actually checking the line, in person.
>
> That is pretty much the situation here except that it is a lot wetter and the
> groundwater is mildly alkaline and so corrosive.

Ours is classified as "slightly to very strong alkaline" with a pervasive
layer of calcium carbonate some 6-12 inches below the surface. The soil
temperature is relatively high (70-80F) tracking our average air
temperature (~75F)

As the "main cable" surfaces every 2 houses, there are lots of
opportunities for water to wick down into the cable as the pedestals
aren't well sealed/maintained.

The advent of cell phone technology took a lot of pressure off of
POTS; folks could just discard their pairs, making them available
for the next house up or down the street.

> In addition tree branches can
> strip the insulation off the overhead cable runs which makes it very noisy and
> can break conductors.
>
>> Connections to the premises wiring are done above ground in a
>> "telephone network interface" box:  the utility's feed is
>> terminated in a pair (typically) of RJ11 jacks.  The premises
>> wiring presents as one or more RJ11 plugs.  So, a subscriber can
>> "unplug" their wiring from the network to allow the utility
>> to check THEIR wiring without the subscriber's impacting the test.
>
> That is how modern installs are done with a so called master socket so you can
> isolate the house wiring and plug into the test socket.

I think this has been retrofitted to all subscribers.
I know the home I grew up in had a terminal block
(spark arrestor?) in the basement that allowed the
house wiring to be disconnected from the service.
But, now see that it has a TNI (different names
for the same functionality) "box" located outside.

[The CATV company uses a similar approach -- a feed
to the home's "access port" from a nearby pedestal that
taps into the main cable]

> You are supposed to do
> this before reporting a fault.

Yes, and because a RJ11 *jack* is presented, you can
carry a station set out to the TNI and connect to the
network directly to convince yourself that the
problem lies with the provider (or in the home).

But, most folks aren't very savvy in that regard.

Different styles exist but this is typical:
<http://www.whoopis.com/howtos/telco-basics/demarc-big.jpg>
the left side (in this exemplar) is normally inaccessible
to the subscriber (oddball screw used for closure).
Note presence of two lines.

> My master POTS socket is "conveniently" located
> at the far end of the loft where the old copper cable enters the house. The new
> fibre install comes from a different pole and has a splice box at ground level
> with a fibre up to my office.
>
> Prehistoric ones were little more than a 4 way terminal block with a Bakelite
> soap bar shaped cover over the top.

This is what it was like in my original home (basement):
<https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11262/normal_DSC01087.JPG>

>>> They connector housings do fail from time to time but they seem to last 5 or
>>> 10 years before they fail badly again. I'm not sure how they protect wet
>>> wires from corrosion though. There are places near me with hybrid copper
>>> meets aluminium phone wiring which partially rectifies ADSL. So bad that
>>> some don't even get 256kbps. Peer to peer microwave has been claiming these
>>> dead zones for some time - farmers need it.
>>
>> Our problem is with the hundreds of feet of 100(?) pair cable
>> that feeds the neighborhood from the main junction box at the entrance to
>> the subdivision.  Lots of places for a partial short or line imbalance
>> to present.
>
> It is almost invariably the wet corroded joints that cause trouble or rodents
> chewing off the insulation. Ours are incredibly fragile now and any disturbance
> from working on a fault tends to break something else.

Exactly. On one occasion, the lineman was "fixing" the neighbor's
service -- and broke ours in the process. I walked outside to
tell him of his error... and he suggested I call for service.

I did. Telling the TPC lineman that came that the subcontracted
lineman had done the damage and walked away! (hopefully, some
note is made of the fact as he now "cost" TPC for a call)

> It got so bad at one point that they had to ship in additional POTS engineers
> from outside the county to get on top of pending repairs.
>
> I haven't been able to find a picture of our underground configuration (it is
> quite rare now) but this one of a normal passive BT cabinet isn't too
> dissimilar if you image no supporting structure and the whole lot of
> multicoloured knitting stuffed randomly into a double width manhole.
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/cablegore/comments/333ek9/inside_a_bt_telephone_cabinet/

Here, the crimp connections would happen on punchdown (66/110) blocks.
The pedestal wiring is less disciplined; I have no idea how they
keep track of which pairs they split off of the main cable at
each pedestal! (and wonder if there is ANY documentation of this??)

I installed a set of blocks to terminate the (~30) telco drops run
throughout the house. In hindsight, I should have just installed
another switch!

>>> There may be a slight difference in texture which is what seems to guide
>>> their choice of exactly what to nibble. We solved our problems on radio
>>> telescope cable runs by flooding the ducts with dry nitrogen.
>>
>> Various "burrowing creatures" are more of a problem with the
>> AC mains (which are also below grade).  Part of the service
>> procedure for each of the ground-mounted transformers is to
>> fill the exposed earth *inside* the enclosure with mortar
>> and wet it to form a bit of a crust to discourage the critters
>> from gaining entry to the high voltage wiring (fried critters!).
>>
>> Packrats tend to enjoy feasting on the wire in automobiles,
>> accessing that from the underside.
>
> Apparently pine martens are keen on BMW brake hose and wiring insulation (and
> they are now moving into my area of the UK).
>
> https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/261913-pine-martens-brake-pipes.html