Exploring China's largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization

https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180

>

Yet one more #veryStupidByLowIQaa post.

On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <manta103g@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Exploring China's largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
>
>
>https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180

Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
economically?

On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 10:14:09 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <mant...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >Exploring China's largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
> >
> >
> >https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
> Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
> economically?

Not since China started making high efficiency solar cells in ten time the volume (and at half the price) that anybody else had.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <manta103g@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Exploring China's largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
>>
>>
>>https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
>
>Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
>economically?

Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.

Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.

boB

On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:33:21 -0700) it happened boB
<boB@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99oklil9gnrrf4pr8nihi@4ax.com>:

>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <manta103g@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Exploring China's largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
>>>
>>>
>>>https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
>>
>>Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
>>economically?
>
>
>Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
>
>Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.

IIRC one issue is storage
Th heat can be used to store energy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
quote:
" Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the resulting steam to power a turbine.
Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to store the energy before using it to boil water to drive turbines.
Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generated continuously,
while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set (or been clouded over).
"

qqOn Wed, 13 Sep 2023 05:04:20 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:33:21 -0700) it happened boB
><boB@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99oklil9gnrrf4pr8nihi@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <manta103g@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Exploring China's largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
>>>
>>>Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
>>>economically?
>>
>>
>>Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
>>
>>Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
>
>IIRC one issue is storage
>Th heat can be used to store energy
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
>quote:
> " Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the resulting steam to power a turbine.
> Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
> 60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
> These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to store the energy before using it to boil water to drive turbines.
> Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generated continuously,
> while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set (or been clouded over).
> "

Well, there is that, yes. That assumes also that the sun is
shining, too, which it mostly does there.

I tried to find how much storage they had but found this in the
Wikipedia article..

"(NREL) estimated the cost of electricity from concentrated solar with
10 hours of storage at $0.076 per kWh in 2021"

Either way, it failed so far. They're working on it sounds like...

Looks like it is also going to be a while before the price per kW-Hour
matches up with current utilities. They gotta try to make it better
at least. That's good.

boB

On a sunny day (Wed, 13 Sep 2023 18:37:58 -0700) it happened boB
<boB@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kvo4gitc6j4o2424aok15frqg9egi9vppa@4ax.com>:

>qqOn Wed, 13 Sep 2023 05:04:20 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:33:21 -0700) it happened boB
>><boB@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99oklil9gnrrf4pr8nihi@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
>>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <manta103g@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Exploring China's largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
>>>>
>>>>Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
>>>>economically?
>>>
>>>
>>>Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
>>>
>>>Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
>>
>>IIRC one issue is storage
>>Th heat can be used to store energy
>>
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
>>quote:
>> " Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the resulting steam to power a turbine.
>> Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
>> 60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
>> These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to store the energy before using it to boil water to drive
>> turbines.
>> Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generated continuously,
>> while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set (or been clouded over).
>> "
>
>Well, there is that, yes. That assumes also that the sun is
>shining, too, which it mostly does there.
>
>I tried to find how much storage they had but found this in the
>Wikipedia article..
>
>"(NREL) estimated the cost of electricity from concentrated solar with
>10 hours of storage at $0.076 per kWh in 2021"
>
>Either way, it failed so far. They're working on it sounds like...
>
>Looks like it is also going to be a while before the price per kW-Hour
>matches up with current utilities. They gotta try to make it better
>at least. That's good.
>
>boB

Yes, there is this in Chile:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Dominador_Solar_Thermal_Plant
funny, just yesterday there was a documentary about it on German TV.
Operational since 2021, 100 MW with an other 100 MW in the making.
Annual net output
950 GW·h (secured sale)
Storage capacity
1,925 MW·he
Lost of sun there!

On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 06:32:18 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Wed, 13 Sep 2023 18:37:58 -0700) it happened boB
> <b...@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kvo4gitc6j4o2424a...@4ax.com>:
> >qqOn Wed, 13 Sep 2023 05:04:20 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> ><al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >>On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:33:21 -0700) it happened boB
> >><b...@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99ok...@4ax.com>:
> >>
> >>>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
> >>><jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <mant...@gmail.com>
> >>>>wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Exploring China's largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
> >>>>
> >>>>Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
> >>>>economically?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
> >>>
> >>>Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
> >>
> >>IIRC one issue is storage
> >>Th heat can be used to store energy
> >>
> >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
> >>quote:
> >> " Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the resulting steam to power a turbine.
> >> Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
> >> 60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
> >> These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to store the energy before using it to boil water to drive
> >> turbines.
> >> Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generated continuously,
> >> while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set (or been clouded over).
> >> "
> >
> >Well, there is that, yes. That assumes also that the sun is
> >shining, too, which it mostly does there.
> >
> >I tried to find how much storage they had but found this in the
> >Wikipedia article..
> >
> >"(NREL) estimated the cost of electricity from concentrated solar with
> >10 hours of storage at $0.076 per kWh in 2021"
> >
> >Either way, it failed so far. They're working on it sounds like...
> >
> >Looks like it is also going to be a while before the price per kW-Hour
> >matches up with current utilities. They gotta try to make it better
> >at least. That's good.
> >
> >boB
> Yes, there is this in Chile:
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Dominador_Solar_Thermal_Plant
> funny, just yesterday there was a documentary about it on German TV.
> Operational since 2021, 100 MW with an other 100 MW in the making.
> Annual net output
> 950 GW·h (secured sale)
> Storage capacity
> 1,925 MW·he
>
> Lost of sun there!

thank you for the link
but photothermal looks to be an ancient technology, alike concentrated photovoltaics, totally abolished today
and efficiency per area is very, very low and solar tracking mechanism is prone to failure in the dessert

>

Darius the Dumb has posted yet one more #veryStupidByLowIQaa article.

On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:25:05 -0700 (PDT)) it happened a a
<manta103g@gmail.com> wrote in
<505d7763-ee04-4f23-9495-75d8da148been@googlegroups.com>:

>On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 06:32:18 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Wed, 13 Sep 2023 18:37:58 -0700) it happened boB
>> <b...@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kvo4gitc6j4o2424a...@4ax.com>:
>> >qqOn Wed, 13 Sep 2023 05:04:20 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>> ><al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:33:21 -0700) it happened boB
>> >><b...@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99ok...@4ax.com>:
>> >>
>> >>>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
>> >>><jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <mant...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>Exploring China's largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #Chin=
>aModernization
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
>> >>>>economically?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
>> >>>
>> >>>Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
>> >>
>> >>IIRC one issue is storage
>> >>Th heat can be used to store energy
>> >>
>> >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
>> >>quote:
>> >> " Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the res=
>ulting steam to power a turbine.
>> >> Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems =
>using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
>> >> 60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
>> >> These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to sto=
>re the energy before using it to boil water to drive
>> >> turbines.
>> >> Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generate=
>d continuously,
>> >> while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set =
>(or been clouded over).
>> >> "
>> >
>> >Well, there is that, yes. That assumes also that the sun is
>> >shining, too, which it mostly does there.
>> >
>> >I tried to find how much storage they had but found this in the
>> >Wikipedia article..
>> >
>> >"(NREL) estimated the cost of electricity from concentrated solar with=
>
>> >10 hours of storage at $0.076 per kWh in 2021"
>> >
>> >Either way, it failed so far. They're working on it sounds like...
>> >
>> >Looks like it is also going to be a while before the price per kW-Hour=
>
>> >matches up with current utilities. They gotta try to make it better
>> >at least. That's good.
>> >
>> >boB
>> Yes, there is this in Chile:
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Dominador_Solar_Thermal_Plant
>> funny, just yesterday there was a documentary about it on German TV.
>> Operational since 2021, 100 MW with an other 100 MW in the making.
>> Annual net output
>> 950 GW·h (secured sale)
>> Storage capacity
>> 1,925 MW·he
>>
>> Lost of sun there!
>
>
>thank you for the link
>but photothermal looks to be an ancient technology, alike concentrated phot=
>ovoltaics, totally abolished today
>and efficiency per area is very, very low and solar tracking mechanism is p=
>rone to failure in the dessert

I dunno, places with a lot of sun and for example solar cells
need large batteries to cover the nights or cloudy periods.
This thing uses molten salt that is kept in a thermally insulated container
and can work past cloudy periods and nights.
The molten salt is a better method than batteries if I understand it right.
Batteries have very limited charge-discharge cycles and are expensive.
The salt comes from a local mine.

You did say you are working with Peltier elements?
I have several of those (from ebay), been playing with some, also for cooling.

But as somebody else pointed out, heat from the inner of the earth can power a lot too,
24/7 at that.

On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 17:02:46 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:25:05 -0700 (PDT)) it happened a a
> <mant...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <505d7763-ee04-4f23...@googlegroups.com>:
> >On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 06:32:18 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> On a sunny day (Wed, 13 Sep 2023 18:37:58 -0700) it happened boB
> >> <b...@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kvo4gitc6j4o2424a...@4ax.com>:
> >> >qqOn Wed, 13 Sep 2023 05:04:20 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> >> ><al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:33:21 -0700) it happened boB
> >> >><b...@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99ok...@4ax.com>:
> >> >>
> >> >>>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
> >> >>><jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <mant...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>>Exploring China's largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #Chin> >aModernization
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
> >> >>>>economically?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
> >> >>
> >> >>IIRC one issue is storage
> >> >>Th heat can be used to store energy
> >> >>
> >> >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
> >> >>quote:
> >> >> " Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the res> >ulting steam to power a turbine.
> >> >> Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems > >using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
> >> >> 60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
> >> >> These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to sto> >re the energy before using it to boil water to drive
> >> >> turbines.
> >> >> Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generate=
> >d continuously,
> >> >> while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set > >(or been clouded over).
> >> >> "
> >> >
> >> >Well, there is that, yes. That assumes also that the sun is
> >> >shining, too, which it mostly does there.
> >> >
> >> >I tried to find how much storage they had but found this in the
> >> >Wikipedia article..
> >> >
> >> >"(NREL) estimated the cost of electricity from concentrated solar with> >
> >> >10 hours of storage at $0.076 per kWh in 2021"
> >> >
> >> >Either way, it failed so far. They're working on it sounds like...
> >> >
> >> >Looks like it is also going to be a while before the price per kW-Hour> >
> >> >matches up with current utilities. They gotta try to make it better
> >> >at least. That's good.
> >> >
> >> >boB
> >> Yes, there is this in Chile:
> >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Dominador_Solar_Thermal_Plant
> >> funny, just yesterday there was a documentary about it on German TV.
> >> Operational since 2021, 100 MW with an other 100 MW in the making.
> >> Annual net output
> >> 950 GW·h (secured sale)
> >> Storage capacity
> >> 1,925 MW·he
> >>
> >> Lost of sun there!
> >
> >
> >thank you for the link
> >but photothermal looks to be an ancient technology, alike concentrated phot=
> >ovoltaics, totally abolished today
> >and efficiency per area is very, very low and solar tracking mechanism is p> >rone to failure in the dessert
> I dunno, places with a lot of sun and for example solar cells
> need large batteries to cover the nights or cloudy periods.
> This thing uses molten salt that is kept in a thermally insulated container
> and can work past cloudy periods and nights.
> The molten salt is a better method than batteries if I understand it right.
> Batteries have very limited charge-discharge cycles and are expensive.
> The salt comes from a local mine.
>
> You did say you are working with Peltier elements?
> I have several of those (from ebay), been playing with some, also for cooling.
>
> But as somebody else pointed out, heat from the inner of the earth can power a lot too,
> 24/7 at that.

I once ordered high-temperature Peltier modules for my friend to generate electric energy in off-grid shelter, mounted to furnace's exhaust pipe by one side and cooled by a fan from other side.

So photothermal is not hot for me.

At the same time Ocean thermal energy conversion (OTEC)
can be done at water reservoir and you get large delta T than in case of pumping ocean water from the deapth.
\ Ok, hot, black side exposed do direct sun can be as hot as to boil water,
so we take water as a working fluid as depicted by

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hydropower/ocean-thermal-energy-conversion.php

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hydropower/images/oceanthermal.png

Unfortunately, high pressure systems, pipes are never safe in operation

so concentrated solar trough technology has never matured

>

Darius the Dumb has posted yet one more #veryStupidByLowIQaa article.