Why are CPU prices falling but GPU prices rising?

On 9/15/2023 10:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> Why are CPU prices falling but GPU prices rising

https://www.pcworld.com/article/1499957/amd-is-undershipping-chips-to-keep-cpu-gpu-prices-elevated.html

Paul

On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 7:58:14 PM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
> On 9/15/2023 10:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > Why are CPU prices falling but GPU prices rising
> https://www.pcworld.com/article/1499957/amd-is-undershipping-chips-to-keep-cpu-gpu-prices-elevated.html
>
> Paul

It's called "supply and demand" - I refer you to Milton Friedman for details.

On 9/15/2023 7:58 PM, Paul wrote:
> On 9/15/2023 10:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> Why are CPU prices falling but GPU prices rising
>
> https://www.pcworld.com/article/1499957/amd-is-undershipping-chips-to-keep-cpu-gpu-prices-elevated.html
>
> Paul

I read recently that GPU's are a significant part of AI requirements.

On 16/09/2023 06:31, Flyguy wrote:
> On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 7:58:14 PM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
>> On 9/15/2023 10:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> Why are CPU prices falling but GPU prices rising
>> https://www.pcworld.com/article/1499957/amd-is-undershipping-chips-to-keep-cpu-gpu-prices-elevated.html
>>
>> Paul
>
> It's called "supply and demand" - I refer you to Milton Friedman for details.

AI applications are hoovering up a lot of the GPU chips.
General purpose CPUs are no good for implementing AI networks.

We will eventually see new non-GPU dedicated AI chips without some of
the other features needed for graphics display. For now GPUs are it!

--
Martin Brown

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 03:58:04 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 9/15/2023 10:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> Why are CPU prices falling but GPU prices rising
>
> https://www.pcworld.com/article/1499957/amd-is-undershipping-chips-to-keep-cpu-gpu-prices-elevated.html

Except I see falling CPU prices and rising GPU prices.

Also, if I was Intel, I'd not undership, and fuck AMD over.

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 06:34:21 +0100, Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9/15/2023 7:58 PM, Paul wrote:
>> On 9/15/2023 10:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> Why are CPU prices falling but GPU prices rising
>>
>> https://www.pcworld.com/article/1499957/amd-is-undershipping-chips-to-keep-cpu-gpu-prices-elevated.html
>>
>> Paul
>
> I read recently that GPU's are a significant part of AI requirements.

Makes sense if it's something like facial recognition, that's graphics displaying in reverse.

They're good at anything to do with angles or maths, hence I have them finding prime numbers and asteroids. Heats the house too.

On 9/16/2023 9:50 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 03:58:04 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 9/15/2023 10:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> Why are CPU prices falling but GPU prices rising
>>
>> https://www.pcworld.com/article/1499957/amd-is-undershipping-chips-to-keep-cpu-gpu-prices-elevated.html
>
> Except I see falling CPU prices and rising GPU prices.
>
> Also, if I was Intel, I'd not undership, and fuck AMD over.

There is generational change, which is how prices are raised.
And there is the usual change over time.

From the generational change, you can see some discussions about
buying a previous gen card, as it represents "better value".
The RTX 4000 series is too expensive for what you get.

The Merc 310, bought by the AI guy, the needle did not budge
on that model. The price has come down on it. XFX Merc 310 with
24GB of RAM, was selected for "max RAM, min price". If you look
at the Steam survey, nobody buys stuff like that, relatively
speaking. the bulk of gaming purchases are more modest.

RTX 3070 launch $1200 now $500

https://camelcamelcamel.com/product/B0971ZJBQY

RTX 4070 launch $870 now $820 (that's ignoring the small spike at the beginning)

https://camelcamelcamel.com/product/B0BNWFM7MZ

The bottom end of the market has changed. I got a couple
nice video cards for desktops, for $65. Products of
similar quality today (haven't had the nuts cut off them),
start at around $200. That represents a large change in pricing.
The Steam Survey people, are buying on the next tier up.
Where again, the tier has shifted faster than inflation.

There are some sad cards with x4 wiring, and the video
encoder/decoder has been removed, and they're still
relatively expensive. And useless. They apparently use
a laptop low-end GPU, as a desktop GPU. Such evil.

A card I got for $200, during the video card shortage era,
it was a "bulk buy, one-off" and were clearance cards from
one of the manufacturers. It still has a video encoder/decoder
and can transcode a movie at 330 frames per second. A bit faster
at the time, than my CPU could do it. But for any other purpose,
gutless.

To me, the low end is the most significant part, because
when you order a high end CPU (and lose the built-in GPU),
then there is the "tax" of having to buy a $200 vid card
serving no purpose. Whereas an integrated GPU is worth
about $20 or so.

Summary: There's a lot of weird stuff going on. None of it good.

Paul

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 18:30:42 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 9/16/2023 9:50 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 03:58:04 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/15/2023 10:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> Why are CPU prices falling but GPU prices rising
>>>
>>> https://www.pcworld.com/article/1499957/amd-is-undershipping-chips-to-keep-cpu-gpu-prices-elevated.html
>>
>> Except I see falling CPU prices and rising GPU prices.
>>
>> Also, if I was Intel, I'd not undership, and fuck AMD over.
>
> There is generational change, which is how prices are raised.
> And there is the usual change over time.
>
> From the generational change, you can see some discussions about
> buying a previous gen card, as it represents "better value".
> The RTX 4000 series is too expensive for what you get.
>
> The Merc 310, bought by the AI guy, the needle did not budge
> on that model. The price has come down on it. XFX Merc 310 with
> 24GB of RAM, was selected for "max RAM, min price". If you look
> at the Steam survey, nobody buys stuff like that, relatively
> speaking. the bulk of gaming purchases are more modest.
>
> RTX 3070 launch $1200 now $500
>
> https://camelcamelcamel.com/product/B0971ZJBQY
>
> RTX 4070 launch $870 now $820 (that's ignoring the small spike at the beginning)
>
> https://camelcamelcamel.com/product/B0BNWFM7MZ
>
> The bottom end of the market has changed. I got a couple
> nice video cards for desktops, for $65. Products of
> similar quality today (haven't had the nuts cut off them),
> start at around $200. That represents a large change in pricing.
> The Steam Survey people, are buying on the next tier up.
> Where again, the tier has shifted faster than inflation.
>
> There are some sad cards with x4 wiring, and the video
> encoder/decoder has been removed, and they're still
> relatively expensive. And useless. They apparently use
> a laptop low-end GPU, as a desktop GPU. Such evil.
>
> A card I got for $200, during the video card shortage era,
> it was a "bulk buy, one-off" and were clearance cards from
> one of the manufacturers. It still has a video encoder/decoder
> and can transcode a movie at 330 frames per second. A bit faster
> at the time, than my CPU could do it. But for any other purpose,
> gutless.
>
> To me, the low end is the most significant part, because
> when you order a high end CPU (and lose the built-in GPU),
> then there is the "tax" of having to buy a $200 vid card
> serving no purpose. Whereas an integrated GPU is worth
> about $20 or so.
>
> Summary: There's a lot of weird stuff going on. None of it good.

Perhaps the stupid high prices for new cards are causing everyone to buy 2nd hand, because those prices are also through the roof.

Same as happening with cars. Not so many years ago, the cheapest new petrol car was £6000, now it's £12,500. Dafuq? As for electric, the cheapest new electric car with a range of at least 200 miles (anything less is ludicrous) is £25,000. Fuck that. So the 2nd hand market is going up too. Can't get much under a grand 2nd hand which is working, it used to be £500. Cheapest 2nd hand electric with 200 mile range is £9,000. And it's a Renault Zoe, not very big or useful.

People keep saying chip shortage, but I call bullshit. Did a chip factory explode? No. So there can't be a shortage. We didn't decide overnight to put chips in everything, that's been happening for decades, gradually. And nothing outside of computers and cars seems to be affected by the chip shortage. Phones don't cost more.

On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 1:43:38 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 18:30:42 +0100, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
> > On 9/16/2023 9:50 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 03:58:04 +0100, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 9/15/2023 10:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >>>> Why are CPU prices falling but GPU prices rising
> >>>
> >>> https://www.pcworld.com/article/1499957/amd-is-undershipping-chips-to-keep-cpu-gpu-prices-elevated.html
> >>
> >> Except I see falling CPU prices and rising GPU prices.
> >>
> >> Also, if I was Intel, I'd not undership, and fuck AMD over.
> >
> > There is generational change, which is how prices are raised.
> > And there is the usual change over time.
> >
> > From the generational change, you can see some discussions about
> > buying a previous gen card, as it represents "better value".
> > The RTX 4000 series is too expensive for what you get.
> >
> > The Merc 310, bought by the AI guy, the needle did not budge
> > on that model. The price has come down on it. XFX Merc 310 with
> > 24GB of RAM, was selected for "max RAM, min price". If you look
> > at the Steam survey, nobody buys stuff like that, relatively
> > speaking. the bulk of gaming purchases are more modest.
> >
> > RTX 3070 launch $1200 now $500
> >
> > https://camelcamelcamel.com/product/B0971ZJBQY
> >
> > RTX 4070 launch $870 now $820 (that's ignoring the small spike at the beginning)
> >
> > https://camelcamelcamel.com/product/B0BNWFM7MZ
> >
> > The bottom end of the market has changed. I got a couple
> > nice video cards for desktops, for $65. Products of
> > similar quality today (haven't had the nuts cut off them),
> > start at around $200. That represents a large change in pricing.
> > The Steam Survey people, are buying on the next tier up.
> > Where again, the tier has shifted faster than inflation.
> >
> > There are some sad cards with x4 wiring, and the video
> > encoder/decoder has been removed, and they're still
> > relatively expensive. And useless. They apparently use
> > a laptop low-end GPU, as a desktop GPU. Such evil.
> >
> > A card I got for $200, during the video card shortage era,
> > it was a "bulk buy, one-off" and were clearance cards from
> > one of the manufacturers. It still has a video encoder/decoder
> > and can transcode a movie at 330 frames per second. A bit faster
> > at the time, than my CPU could do it. But for any other purpose,
> > gutless.
> >
> > To me, the low end is the most significant part, because
> > when you order a high end CPU (and lose the built-in GPU),
> > then there is the "tax" of having to buy a $200 vid card
> > serving no purpose. Whereas an integrated GPU is worth
> > about $20 or so.
> >
> > Summary: There's a lot of weird stuff going on. None of it good.
> Perhaps the stupid high prices for new cards are causing everyone to buy 2nd hand, because those prices are also through the roof.
>
> Same as happening with cars. Not so many years ago, the cheapest new petrol car was £6000, now it's £12,500. Dafuq? As for electric, the cheapest new electric car with a range of at least 200 miles (anything less is ludicrous) is £25,000. Fuck that. So the 2nd hand market is going up too. Can't get much under a grand 2nd hand which is working, it used to be £500. Cheapest 2nd hand electric with 200 mile range is £9,000. And it's a Renault Zoe, not very big or useful.
>
> People keep saying chip shortage, but I call bullshit. Did a chip factory explode? No. So there can't be a shortage. We didn't decide overnight to put chips in everything, that's been happening for decades, gradually. And nothing outside of computers and cars seems to be affected by the chip shortage. Phones don't cost more.

EVs have always been for well-off Woke yuppies to prove that they are bonafide members of the Woke community. The price alone puts them out of range of the average middle-class family, while it puts us at the "mercy" of the CHICOMs. And these prices are heavily subsidized by the sale of ICE vehicles.. Ford losses $60k PER EV they sell!

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 11:12:41 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 1:43:38 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 18:30:42 +0100, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote:
> > > On 9/16/2023 9:50 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > >> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 03:58:04 +0100, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote:
> > >>> On 9/15/2023 10:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

<snip>

> EVs have always been for well-off Woke yuppies to prove that they are bonafide members of the Woke community.

Probably not. They certainly appeal to early adopters who want to be the first to be seen using the latest novelty. They are also cheaper to run per mile than gasoline-powered cars, and cheaper to service.

> The price alone puts them out of range of the average middle-class family, while it puts us at the "mercy" of the CHICOMs.

How - exactly - does buying an electric car put you at the mercy of the Chinese Communist Party? The Chinese have gone to a certain amount of trouble to bankrupt foreign miners of a range of strategic materials, but the increased demand from electric cars has got a bunch of Australian miners quite excited, and the Australian stock market with it. Australia is only 80% the size of China, but our miners don't confine themselves to the Australian mainland.

> And these prices are heavily subsidized by the sale of ICE vehicles. Ford losses $60k PER EV they sell!

Dream on. Ford might be silly enough to go in for that, but Tesla clearly isn't.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney