On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.

You've not indicated where you are located.

In the US, "20A" and "microwave" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).

Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn't be on the counter circuit
at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.

OTOH, a "22A" circuit wouldn't exist, here.

On 9/24/2023 2:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
>> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit.  Fine most of the
>> time until I use the microwave.  Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit
>> breaker?  Existing one might be 10AIC.
>
> You've not indicated where you are located.
>
> In the US, "20A" and "microwave" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
> In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
> 2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
>
> Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn't be on the counter circuit
> at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.

It goes without saying that the fridge should always have a dedicated
(i.e., "single outlet") circuit.

> OTOH, a "22A" circuit wouldn't exist, here.
>

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:56:51 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
> You've not indicated where you are located.
>
> In the US, "20A" and "microwave" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
> In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
> 2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
>
> Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn't be on the counter circuit
> at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
>
> OTOH, a "22A" circuit wouldn't exist, here.

The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.

mandag den 25. september 2023 kl. 00.24.38 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:56:51 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
> > You've not indicated where you are located.
> >
> > In the US, "20A" and "microwave" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
> > In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
> > 2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
> >
> > Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn't be on the counter circuit
> > at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
> >
> > OTOH, a "22A" circuit wouldn't exist, here.
> The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.

AIC is Ampere Interrupting Capacity, so it is probably 10kAIC and 22kAIC.

On 9/24/2023 3:24 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:56:51 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
>>> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
>> You've not indicated where you are located.
>>
>> In the US, "20A" and "microwave" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
>> In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
>> 2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
>>
>> Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn't be on the counter circuit
>> at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
>>
>> OTOH, a "22A" circuit wouldn't exist, here.
>
> The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.

The "interrupting" current rating indicates the INSTANTANEOUS current level
at which the breaker is determined not to fail, catastrophically.

Recall, these are electroMECHANICAL devices so there are finite reaction
times involved. During those times, a breaker may have to pass the full
short-circuit rating of the panel into it's shorted output. A breaker
failing while doing that is A Bad Thing.

So, you select breakers with higher interrupting current levels
than those of the panel as the panel isn't guaranteed to "behave"
at levels above its rating. 22kAIC is a common panel/load center
rating.

One typically wants the fridge on a separate circuit as it won't be a
"victim" of a short circuit caused by something else. You'd be
annoyed if the toaster blew a breaker and your food spoiled...
(if the refrigerator is the sole device, then worrying about
food spoilage while the refrigerator is the culprit is sort of
implied)

Microwaves (on counter circuits) tend to cause problems because
they are used "on demand"... you don't think twice about pressing
the START button, regardless of what other appliances you may
have on that circuit. Nuisance trips then become a problem.

Putting it on its own circuit leaves plenty of headroom and
keeps other loads from eating into its resources.

[We have 5 or 6 circuits in our small kitchen -- not counting the
oven/stove. We *never* blow breakers, even with electric wok,
toaster, frying pans, microwave, dishwasher, disposal, etc. all
operating simultaneously. Kitchens are the energy hogs in most homes
so ensuring you have an adequate supply *there* is usually prudent]

You should also explore whether or not your branch circuit is GFCI
protected (common for countertops). And, if so, verify that every
connection is tight and secure -- esp if your outlets were wired
"daisy chain". A high-resistance connection can cause nuisance
trips (and outlets regularly see "motion" as plugs are inserted
and withdrawn -- esp if wired with back-stab terminals!)

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 3:59:51 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/24/2023 3:24 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:56:51 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> >>> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
> >> You've not indicated where you are located.
> >>
> >> In the US, "20A" and "microwave" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
> >> In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
> >> 2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
> >>
> >> Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn't be on the counter circuit
> >> at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
> >>
> >> OTOH, a "22A" circuit wouldn't exist, here.
> >
> > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
> The "interrupting" current rating indicates the INSTANTANEOUS current level
> at which the breaker is determined not to fail, catastrophically.
>
> Recall, these are electroMECHANICAL devices so there are finite reaction
> times involved. During those times, a breaker may have to pass the full
> short-circuit rating of the panel into it's shorted output. A breaker
> failing while doing that is A Bad Thing.
>
> So, you select breakers with higher interrupting current levels
> than those of the panel as the panel isn't guaranteed to "behave"
> at levels above its rating. 22kAIC is a common panel/load center
> rating.
>
> One typically wants the fridge on a separate circuit as it won't be a
> "victim" of a short circuit caused by something else. You'd be
> annoyed if the toaster blew a breaker and your food spoiled...
> (if the refrigerator is the sole device, then worrying about
> food spoilage while the refrigerator is the culprit is sort of
> implied)
>
> Microwaves (on counter circuits) tend to cause problems because
> they are used "on demand"... you don't think twice about pressing
> the START button, regardless of what other appliances you may
> have on that circuit. Nuisance trips then become a problem.
>
> Putting it on its own circuit leaves plenty of headroom and
> keeps other loads from eating into its resources.
>
> [We have 5 or 6 circuits in our small kitchen -- not counting the
> oven/stove. We *never* blow breakers, even with electric wok,
> toaster, frying pans, microwave, dishwasher, disposal, etc. all
> operating simultaneously. Kitchens are the energy hogs in most homes
> so ensuring you have an adequate supply *there* is usually prudent]
> ss
> You should also explore whether or not your branch circuit is GFCI
> protected (common for countertops). And, if so, verify that every
> connection is tight and secure -- esp if your outlets were wired
> "daisy chain". A high-resistance connection can cause nuisance
> trips (and outlets regularly see "motion" as plugs are inserted
> and withdrawn -- esp if wired with back-stab terminals!)

There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.

On 9/24/2023 4:08 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.

The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment
might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner's
liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm
or loss as a result of your actions).

Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed*
(what ampacity circuit).

And, running cable is not likely to be easy in "old works".

Note that you won't be able to claim "the wires were there"
as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it
every few feet (unless you happen to have some old
wire on hand that predates your occupancy).

Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns.

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:43:06 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/24/2023 4:08 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.
> The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment
> might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner's
> liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm
> or loss as a result of your actions).
>
> Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed*
> (what ampacity circuit).
>
> And, running cable is not likely to be easy in "old works".
>
> Note that you won't be able to claim "the wires were there"
> as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it
> every few feet (unless you happen to have some old
> wire on hand that predates your occupancy).
>
> Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns.

I'll try not to use the electric stove and microwave at the same time, although they are on separate breakers. I'd have to unplug the fridge to use the microwave.

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
>
> > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
> No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.

It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K

https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/

Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:57:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/24/2023 2:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
> > On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> >> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the
> >> time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit
> >> breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
> >
> > You've not indicated where you are located.
> >
> > In the US, "20A" and "microwave" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
> > In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
> > 2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
> >
> > Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn't be on the counter circuit
> > at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
> It goes without saying that the fridge should always have a dedicated
> (i.e., "single outlet") circuit.

It goes without saying, because no one says it. A fridge is about 300W or around 3A when running. That's about the same as maybe 5 laptops depending on the laptop and what they are running at the time.

The only individual heavy load is the microwave which ranges from 600W to 1,400W, depending on size.

But we simply don't know enough. 10 laptops can use over 1,000W alone, if they are high end, running heavy programs. So, they should be ok with the fridge, but the microwave has to go on a separate circuit, or the fridge has to be turned off while the microwave is running.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:56:51 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
> > You've not indicated where you are located.
> >
> > In the US, "20A" and "microwave" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
> > In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
> > 2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
> >
> > Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn't be on the counter circuit
> > at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
> >
> > OTOH, a "22A" circuit wouldn't exist, here.
> The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.

What's the current draw of the fridge while running? While defrosting? They might be compatible on a 20A circuit.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 9/24/2023 6:35 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:43:06 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/24/2023 4:08 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
>>> There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.
>> The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment
>> might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner's
>> liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm
>> or loss as a result of your actions).
>>
>> Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed*
>> (what ampacity circuit).
>>
>> And, running cable is not likely to be easy in "old works".
>>
>> Note that you won't be able to claim "the wires were there"
>> as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it
>> every few feet (unless you happen to have some old
>> wire on hand that predates your occupancy).
>>
>> Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns.
>
> I'll try not to use the electric stove and microwave at the same time, although they are on separate breakers. I'd have to unplug the fridge to use the microwave.

The Code requires dedicated circuits for these major appliances
precisely to eliminate the nuisances that arise from two or more
of them being used concurrently. When people are "plagued" by
nuisance trips, they look for ways to BYPASS those safety devices
(that are simply doing their jobs; the Code frowns on this sort
of behavior and tries to anticipate it).

[Ever notice how many/few receptacles are on each branch circuit?
Do you really think they expect you to plug vacuum cleaners
into ALL of them??]

Note that there is an EXPLICIT exception that *allows* a fridge
(which is classified as a major appliance and thus requires a
dedicated branch circuit) to be placed on one of the "small
appliance" counter circuits -- but "best practices" (i.e., anyone
who isn't pinching pennies) will always have the fridge on a
15-20A dedicated circuit (of course, an apartment application
could be rationalized as not needing to support a big fridge).

Neighbor complained to me that his fridge would "go off" whenever
he used his microwave oven. His home was wired with the fridge
on the small appliance (counter) circuit. The *9* amps that the
nice *Viking* fridge would draw (peak), when inconveniently timed with
the microwave's sudden use, would promptly take out the counter
circuit.

"Move the microwave elsewhere or get a new DEDICATED branch circuit
installed -- like every NEW home!"

[I've heard this complaint (counter breaker tripping) so often that
my stock response is: "Check to see if your refrigerator is on the
same branch circuit" as it almost always is (and appliance salesmen
aren't keen on telling you that you need an electrician to come
out and install a new branch circuit BEFORE they can sell you that
shiny new fridge!)]

Ditto for a freezer, etc.

But, people don't read the Code so don't understand what it tries to
anticipate... ("Gee, this only draws X << 20A so I can put it on
the counter circuit!")

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> >
> > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
> > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
> It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K
>
> https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/
>
> Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.

AFCI doesn't trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current.

It's sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You'll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn't trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient.

On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 6:32:24 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/24/2023 6:35 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:43:06 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 9/24/2023 4:08 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> >>> There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.
> >> The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment
> >> might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner's
> >> liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm
> >> or loss as a result of your actions).
> >>
> >> Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed*
> >> (what ampacity circuit).
> >>
> >> And, running cable is not likely to be easy in "old works".
> >>
> >> Note that you won't be able to claim "the wires were there"
> >> as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it
> >> every few feet (unless you happen to have some old
> >> wire on hand that predates your occupancy).
> >>
> >> Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns.
> >
> > I'll try not to use the electric stove and microwave at the same time, although they are on separate breakers. I'd have to unplug the fridge to use the microwave.
> The Code requires dedicated circuits for these major appliances
> precisely to eliminate the nuisances that arise from two or more
> of them being used concurrently. When people are "plagued" by
> nuisance trips, they look for ways to BYPASS those safety devices
> (that are simply doing their jobs; the Code frowns on this sort
> of behavior and tries to anticipate it).
>
> [Ever notice how many/few receptacles are on each branch circuit?
> Do you really think they expect you to plug vacuum cleaners
> into ALL of them??]
>
> Note that there is an EXPLICIT exception that *allows* a fridge
> (which is classified as a major appliance and thus requires a
> dedicated branch circuit) to be placed on one of the "small
> appliance" counter circuits -- but "best practices" (i.e., anyone
> who isn't pinching pennies) will always have the fridge on a
> 15-20A dedicated circuit (of course, an apartment application
> could be rationalized as not needing to support a big fridge).
>
> Neighbor complained to me that his fridge would "go off" whenever
> he used his microwave oven. His home was wired with the fridge
> on the small appliance (counter) circuit. The *9* amps that the
> nice *Viking* fridge would draw (peak), when inconveniently timed with
> the microwave's sudden use, would promptly take out the counter
> circuit.
>
> "Move the microwave elsewhere or get a new DEDICATED branch circuit
> installed -- like every NEW home!"
>
> [I've heard this complaint (counter breaker tripping) so often that
> my stock response is: "Check to see if your refrigerator is on the
> same branch circuit" as it almost always is (and appliance salesmen
> aren't keen on telling you that you need an electrician to come
> out and install a new branch circuit BEFORE they can sell you that
> shiny new fridge!)]
>
> Ditto for a freezer, etc.
>
> But, people don't read the Code so don't understand what it tries to
> anticipate... ("Gee, this only draws X << 20A so I can put it on
> the counter circuit!")

None of that advice applies to the California Electric Code (CEC). All branch circuits into the kitchen are required to have AFCI protection without exception.

On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:00:25 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > >
> > > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
> > > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current.. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
> > It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K
> >
> > https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/
> >
> > Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.
> AFCI doesn't trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current.
>
> It's sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You'll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn't trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient.

If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.

On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:05:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:00:25 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
> > > > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
> > > It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K
> > >
> > > https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/
> > >
> > > Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.
> > AFCI doesn't trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current.
> >
> > It's sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You'll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn't trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient.
> If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.

And the fridge alone never trips the AFCI? You can't relay the power through the microwave that way because it could potentially short cycle the relay load if it's in a mode other than continuous.

On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:05:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:00:25 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
> > > > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
> > > It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K
> > >
> > > https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/
> > >
> > > Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.
> > AFCI doesn't trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current.
> >
> > It's sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You'll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn't trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient.
> If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.

I encountered one oversensitive AFCI that would reliably trip if I just put my 'near' the insulated wire in a fixture. I couldn't believe it but there was no doubt that's what it was doing.

On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:19:04 AM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:05:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:00:25 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
> > > > > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
> > > > It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K
> > > >
> > > > https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/
> > > >
> > > > Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.
> > > AFCI doesn't trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current.
> > >
> > > It's sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You'll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn't trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient.
> > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.
> I encountered one oversensitive AFCI that would reliably trip if I just put my 'near' the insulated wire in a fixture. I couldn't believe it but there was no doubt that's what it was doing.

What is your 'near'?

On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 1:02:33 PM UTC-4, John Smiht wrote:
> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:19:04 AM UTC-5, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:05:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:00:25 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don't really know what they mean. It's plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
> > > > > > No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I'm guessing you're misreading 'AIC' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it's running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
> > > > > It's 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/
> > > > >
> > > > > Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.
> > > > AFCI doesn't trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current.
> > > >
> > > > It's sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You'll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn't trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient.
> > > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.
> > I encountered one oversensitive AFCI that would reliably trip if I just put my 'near' the insulated wire in a fixture. I couldn't believe it but there was no doubt that's what it was doing.
> What is your 'near'?

Hand- wire nutting live wires to a ceiling light fixture with all the bulbs removed. AFCI tripped when I just touched a single wire, by the insulation of course.

On 9/25/2023 9:04 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 6:32:24 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/24/2023 6:35 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:43:06 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 9/24/2023 4:08 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
>>>>> There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.
>>>> The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment
>>>> might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner's
>>>> liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm
>>>> or loss as a result of your actions).
>>>>
>>>> Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed*
>>>> (what ampacity circuit).
>>>>
>>>> And, running cable is not likely to be easy in "old works".
>>>>
>>>> Note that you won't be able to claim "the wires were there"
>>>> as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it
>>>> every few feet (unless you happen to have some old
>>>> wire on hand that predates your occupancy).
>>>>
>>>> Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns.
>>>
>>> I'll try not to use the electric stove and microwave at the same time, although they are on separate breakers. I'd have to unplug the fridge to use the microwave.
>> The Code requires dedicated circuits for these major appliances
>> precisely to eliminate the nuisances that arise from two or more
>> of them being used concurrently. When people are "plagued" by
>> nuisance trips, they look for ways to BYPASS those safety devices
>> (that are simply doing their jobs; the Code frowns on this sort
>> of behavior and tries to anticipate it).
>>
>> [Ever notice how many/few receptacles are on each branch circuit?
>> Do you really think they expect you to plug vacuum cleaners
>> into ALL of them??]
>>
>> Note that there is an EXPLICIT exception that *allows* a fridge
>> (which is classified as a major appliance and thus requires a
>> dedicated branch circuit) to be placed on one of the "small
>> appliance" counter circuits -- but "best practices" (i.e., anyone
>> who isn't pinching pennies) will always have the fridge on a
>> 15-20A dedicated circuit (of course, an apartment application
>> could be rationalized as not needing to support a big fridge).
>>
>> Neighbor complained to me that his fridge would "go off" whenever
>> he used his microwave oven. His home was wired with the fridge
>> on the small appliance (counter) circuit. The *9* amps that the
>> nice *Viking* fridge would draw (peak), when inconveniently timed with
>> the microwave's sudden use, would promptly take out the counter
>> circuit.
>>
>> "Move the microwave elsewhere or get a new DEDICATED branch circuit
>> installed -- like every NEW home!"
>>
>> [I've heard this complaint (counter breaker tripping) so often that
>> my stock response is: "Check to see if your refrigerator is on the
>> same branch circuit" as it almost always is (and appliance salesmen
>> aren't keen on telling you that you need an electrician to come
>> out and install a new branch circuit BEFORE they can sell you that
>> shiny new fridge!)]
>>
>> Ditto for a freezer, etc.
>>
>> But, people don't read the Code so don't understand what it tries to
>> anticipate... ("Gee, this only draws X << 20A so I can put it on
>> the counter circuit!")
>
> None of that advice applies to the California Electric Code (CEC). All branch circuits into the kitchen are required to have AFCI protection without exception.

What does that have to do with my above comments?

The issues are orthogonal. Can you put a dishwasher
and refrigerator on the same branch circuit, in california,
EVEN IF AFCI PROTECTED?

An AFCI does nothing for the AMPACITY of a branch circuit
which is why the requirement for dedicated branch circuits
exists. AFCI's protect against a different type of fault
in the same way as GFCIs.

On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.

What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say
it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than
half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity)

The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large
loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster,
toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster
ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV),
stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc.

Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to
think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal,
microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly
turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and
tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit
with some other appliance...

You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator
(which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse
the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls)
lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical)
load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart
controls will inhibit the compressor for its required
dead time on initial application of power for exactly
this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor
always "waiting" even without cause)

[Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use.
Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged
each time you throw something in the microwave
for 15 seconds?]

And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker)
risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the
refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its*
breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit
thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the
breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to
discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher
or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered
off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty
but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!)

On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.
> What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say
> it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than
> half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity)
>
> The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large
> loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster,
> toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster
> ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV),
> stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc.
>
> Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to
> think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal,
> microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly
> turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and
> tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit
> with some other appliance...
>
> You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator
> (which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse
> the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls)
> lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical)
> load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart
> controls will inhibit the compressor for its required
> dead time on initial application of power for exactly
> this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor
> always "waiting" even without cause)
>
> [Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use.
> Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged
> each time you throw something in the microwave
> for 15 seconds?]
>
> And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker)
> risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the
> refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its*
> breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit
> thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the
> breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to
> discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher
> or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered
> off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty
> but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!)

Fridge: 310KWhr/year = 35W average (no info on motor)
Microwave: 1500W
Laptops: 60W to 90W.

No dishwasher or coffee pot.

On 9/25/2023 11:44 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
>>> If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.
>> What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say
>> it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than
>> half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity)
>>
>> The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large
>> loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster,
>> toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster
>> ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV),
>> stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc.
>>
>> Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to
>> think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal,
>> microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly
>> turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and
>> tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit
>> with some other appliance...
>>
>> You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator
>> (which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse
>> the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls)
>> lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical)
>> load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart
>> controls will inhibit the compressor for its required
>> dead time on initial application of power for exactly
>> this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor
>> always "waiting" even without cause)
>>
>> [Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use.
>> Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged
>> each time you throw something in the microwave
>> for 15 seconds?]
>>
>> And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker)
>> risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the
>> refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its*
>> breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit
>> thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the
>> breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to
>> discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher
>> or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered
>> off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty
>> but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!)
>
> Fridge: 310KWhr/year = 35W average (no info on motor)

Branch circuits care very little about the AVERAGE power.
I suspect the power cord is a fair bit larger than 22AWG?

You need to find the nameplate declaration of maximum power
required. Refrigerator power requirements are all over
the map. Note that startup power requirements can be 2-3X
running power (you can look at the compressor's locked rotor
current for a worst case value; of course, with all the
electronics now migrating into appliances, the compressor
isn't just the sole/primary load!)

> Microwave: 1500W
> Laptops: 60W to 90W.

And you have *10* of those on that same branch circuit?
That's 600-900W *there*.

> No dishwasher or coffee pot.

Dishwasher would be on its own circuit -- though it can
be ("just") a 15A circuit -- as can the refrigerator.
(and, unless hardwired -- which is highly unlikely -- would
need a *single* outlet... NOT a duplex receptacle)

It's important in that, while running, it consumes some of the
available power *into* your residence.

[Anyone who has lived in a dorm room can appreciate "active
power management"! :-( ]

Note that home energy usage has evolved, considerably.
When I was a kid, a single 15A "outlet circuit" could easily
power ALL of the bedrooms in a home. Now, everyone has
a personal TV, personal computer, etc. Bedrooms are used
for more than just the bedside radio and lamp.

On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 2:44:39 PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > On 9/25/2023 9:05 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> > > If I unplug the fridge, or when it's silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.
> > What's the nameplate rating of the microwave? Does *it* say
> > it requires a dedicated circuit? (because it draws more than
> > half of the rated branch circuit's ampacity)
> >
> > The countertops, in kitchens, tend to see lots of large
> > loads that are often running concurrently. Toaster,
> > toaster oven, countertop oven (e.g., all the toaster
> > ovens on steroids that you see advertised on TV),
> > stand/hand mixer, electric frying pan, *TV*, etc.
> >
> > Add to this the other large loads that folks tend to
> > think nothing of activating: dishwasher, garbage disposal,
> > microwave, "instant hot water", etc. Imagine mindlessly
> > turning on the garbage disposal (for 10 seconds) and
> > tripping a breaker because it shared a branch circuit
> > with some other appliance...
> >
> > You *don't* want to unplug/replug the refrigerator
> > (which is what a relay would do) as this can confuse
> > the defrost timer and (for poorly designed controls)
> > lead to the compressor starting under a (mechanical)
> > load that hasn't yet had time to dissipate (smart
> > controls will inhibit the compressor for its required
> > dead time on initial application of power for exactly
> > this reason -- but, then, you would risk the compressor
> > always "waiting" even without cause)
> >
> > [Microwave ovens tend to see frequent, brief use.
> > Would you want your refrigerator being unplugged
> > each time you throw something in the microwave
> > for 15 seconds?]
> >
> > And, refrigerators (if disabled due to a tripped breaker)
> > risk having their contents spoil. So, you'd like the
> > refrigerator to be the sole item that can cause *its*
> > breaker to trip (imagine the instant hot water unit
> > thermostatically cycled on and silently took out the
> > breaker for the refrigerator... which you happen to
> > discover the next *morning*). Ditto the dishwasher
> > or any other appliance that can "safely" sit, powered
> > off, with no ill effects (e.g., the dishes are still dirty
> > but aren't getting any *dirtier* in the absence of mains!)
> Fridge: 310KWhr/year = 35W average (no info on motor)
> Microwave: 1500W
> Laptops: 60W to 90W.
>
> No dishwasher or coffee pot.

I like that you provided the "average" power draw of the fridge. How do you expect to use that in solving your problem?

It just occurred to me. You have the fridge to chill all the laptops so you can overclock them!!!

Here's the most direct route to solving your problem. Get a microwave that is 600 watts, rather than the behemoth 1500 watt monster. Do you actual defrost turkeys in it?

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

In article <uesltr$22gfl$2@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
says...
>
> [Anyone who has lived in a dorm room can appreciate "active
> power management"! :-( ]
>
>
>

When my son was in a dorm room he could rent what they called a
'microfrige'. It was a microwave on top of a small refrigerator. I
would assume it was set up so both of them were not drawing power at the
same time. Due to the cost of the rent we decided just to buy a
microwave an small refrigerator.