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tech / sci.lang / Unique Phonology due to Geography

SubjectAuthor
* Unique Phonology due to GeographyJack Heitman
+* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyDaud Deden
|`* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyYmir
| `* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyDaud Deden
|  `* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyYmir
|   `* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyDaud Deden
|    `* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyYmir
|     `- Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyDaud Deden
+* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyPeter T. Daniels
|`* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyRoss Clark
| +- Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyRuud Harmsen
| `* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyAntónio Marques
|  +* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyRoss Clark
|  |`* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyAntónio Marques
|  | +- Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyDaud Deden
|  | +* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyRoss Clark
|  | |`- Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyRuud Harmsen
|  | `- Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyRuud Harmsen
|  `- Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyRuud Harmsen
`* Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyChristian Weisgerber
 `- Re: Unique Phonology due to GeographyPeter T. Daniels

1
Unique Phonology due to Geography

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Subject: Unique Phonology due to Geography
From: jackio...@gmail.com (Jack Heitman)
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 by: Jack Heitman - Mon, 7 Jun 2021 22:13 UTC

Hello,

Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?

http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 00:44 UTC

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?
>
> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html

I wonder if arboreal male apes with large laryngeal airsacs filled with exhaled air which make loud long calls produce such ejectives.

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 12:12 UTC

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?
>
> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html

It's not true?

Pre-Nazi (to put it bluntly) ethnological "theory" postulated all sorts
of connections between race, geography,, culture, and language
features. None of them are legitimate.

Aha/ The "lead researcher" is one Caleb Everett, whose name came
up in this ng just the other day.

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

<slrnsbuv0q.2v6r.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>

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From: nad...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2021 14:18:02 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Christian Weisgerber - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 14:18 UTC

On 2021-06-07, Jack Heitman <jackio245@gmail.com> wrote:

> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?

It's a _correlation_, not a unique characteristic.
For instance, Yucatec Maya has ejectives and is spoken in an area
that is flat land at low elevation.

> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html

It garnered some skepticism at the time it was published.

From a Language Log article at the time:

Sean Roberts does some of the statistical checks that Everett
should have done and didn't [...], and the connection between
altitude and ejectives hold up fairly well. Thus only two linguistic
variables (Order of Object and Verb and the Relationship between
the Order of Object and Verb and the Order of Adjective and Noun)
have a stronger connection with altitude than the ejectives feature
[...]
Still, the (presumably) spurious correlations of the two word-order
variables with altitude remind us of the possibility for false
findings here.

See...
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4685
.... including a number of interesting comments, some by the paper's
author himself.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 15:13 UTC

On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 10:30:07 AM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2021-06-07, Jack Heitman <jack...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?
>
> It's a _correlation_, not a unique characteristic.
> For instance, Yucatec Maya has ejectives and is spoken in an area
> that is flat land at low elevation.
>
> > http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
>
> It garnered some skepticism at the time it was published.
>
> From a Language Log article at the time:
>
> Sean Roberts does some of the statistical checks that Everett
> should have done and didn't [...], and the connection between
> altitude and ejectives hold up fairly well. Thus only two linguistic
> variables (Order of Object and Verb and the Relationship between
> the Order of Object and Verb and the Order of Adjective and Noun)
> have a stronger connection with altitude than the ejectives feature
> [...]
> Still, the (presumably) spurious correlations of the two word-order
> variables with altitude remind us of the possibility for false
> findings here.
>
> See...
> https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4685
> ... including a number of interesting comments, some by the paper's
> author himself.

Seems like a question that would have been addressed by the WALS.
Schmidt 1926 has hundreds of pages on the correlations between
race, climate, and language, and about 4 of his 14 maps show the
correlations.

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

<s9o602$1kr$1@dont-email.me>

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From: agis...@gm.invalid (Ymir)
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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
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 by: Ymir - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 16:30 UTC

On 2021-06-07 18:44, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?
>>
>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
>
> I wonder if arboreal male apes with large laryngeal airsacs filled with exhaled air which make loud long calls produce such ejectives.

No. The position of the main air-sacs relative to the glottis would make
an egressive glottalic airstream far more difficult to achieve, and
that's ignoring the fact that non-human apes don't even have a descended
larynx.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 18:42 UTC

On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 12:31:00 PM UTC-4, Ymir wrote:
> On 2021-06-07 18:44, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?
> >>
> >> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
> >
> > I wonder if arboreal male apes with large laryngeal airsacs filled with exhaled air which make loud long calls produce such ejectives.
> No.

-
I don't know if mountain gorilla vocalizations differ from lowland gorilla vocalizations, I'd expect so.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12775758/

The human larynx descends during infancy and the early juvenile periods, and this greatly contributes to the morphological foundations of speech development. This developmental phenomenon is believed to be unique to humans. This concept has formed a basis for paleoanthropological studies on the origin and evolution of human speech. We used magnetic resonance imaging to study the development of three living chimpanzees and found that their larynges also descend during infancy, as in human infants. This descent was completed primarily through the rapid descent of the laryngeal skeleton relative to the hyoid, but it was not accompanied by the descent of the hyoid itself [DD: which occurs in humans].

Recall:
Tratz and Heck's eight-point list of behavioral differences between the two Pan species still stands as the first outline of the areas of greatest contrast: sexual behavior, intensity of aggression, and vocal expression. Here follows their list in slightly compressed form:

5. The bonobo voice contains a and e vowels, whereas the chimpanzee uses more u and o vowels.

6. Bonobos are more vocal than chimpanzees.

7. Bonobos stretch their arms and shake their hands when calling, whereas chimpanzees do not.

8. Bonobos copulate more hominum and chimpanzees more canum.

Given what we know now, points 1 through 4 are undoubtedly correct. Even though the difference in aggressivity is one of degree only, it cannot be denied that the treatment to which chimpanzees occasionally subject one another, including biting and full-force hitting, is rare among bonobos. Chimpanzees also erect their hair at the slightest provocation, pick up a branch, and challenge and intimidate anyone perceived as weaker than themselves: they are very much into status. By bonobo standards, the chimpanzee is a wild and untamed beast, or as Tratz and Heck put it: "The bonobo is an extraordinarily sensitive, gentle creature, far removed from the demoniacal primitive force [Urkraft] of the adult chimpanzee."

As regards point 5, Blanche Learned's pioneer (albeit unwitting) comparison of vocal repertoires is worth noting. Before the species difference was established, she listened with a musical ear to Yerkes's two apes, Chim and Panzee. According to my calculations from Learned's phonetic transcriptions of hundreds of vocalizations, Chim mostly uttered a (48%), ae (38%), and oo (10%) sounds, whereas Panzee mostly uttered oo (68%), o (12%), and oa (7%) sounds. There is indeed no quicker way to distinguish the two ape species than by their voices. When Heck, who was the director of Hellabrunn Zoo, first heard bonobo calls coming out of a cloth-covered crate, he was convinced that he had received the wrong animals. Their calls are so high-pitched and penetrating that they do not even remind one of the typical drawn-out "huu ... huu" hooting of the chimpanzee. The difference in timbre between the voices of the two species may well be of the same magnitude as that between a small child and a grown man.

It is also true that bonobos tend to gesticulate when calling, and that vocal activity among them is high. Bonobos are excitable creatures who frequently "comment" on minor events around them through high-pitched peeps and barks. Even if most of these vocalizations are noticeable only at close range, one definitely hears more vocal exchange in a group of bonobos than in a group of chimpanzees. Chimpanzees call when seriously alarmed, aroused by food, or in order to intimidate one another. Few animals can produce the din characteristic of chimpanzees, but much of it occurs on well-circumscribed occasions.
-

The position of the main air-sacs relative to the glottis would make
> an egressive glottalic airstream far more difficult to achieve, and
> that's ignoring the fact that non-human apes don't even have a descended
> larynx.
>
> André

>
> --
> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
> service.

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

<s9oob3$82t$1@dont-email.me>

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From: benli...@ihug.co.nz (Ross Clark)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 09:43:56 +1200
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 by: Ross Clark - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 21:43 UTC

On 9/06/2021 12:12 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?
>>
>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
>
> It's not true?
>
> Pre-Nazi (to put it bluntly) ethnological "theory" postulated all sorts
> of connections between race, geography,, culture, and language
> features. None of them are legitimate.
>
> Aha/ The "lead researcher" is one Caleb Everett, whose name came
> up in this ng just the other day.

Well, that simplifies everything, doesn't it? You've decided his father
is a charlatan, so he must be, too. God forbid you should actually have
to look at the evidence.

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 00:42:41 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 22:42 UTC

Wed, 9 Jun 2021 09:43:56 +1200: Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
scribeva:

>On 9/06/2021 12:12 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
>>
>> It's not true?
>>
>> Pre-Nazi (to put it bluntly) ethnological "theory" postulated all sorts
>> of connections between race, geography,, culture, and language
>> features. None of them are legitimate.
>>
>> Aha/ The "lead researcher" is one Caleb Everett, whose name came
>> up in this ng just the other day.
>
>Well, that simplifies everything, doesn't it? You've decided his father
>is a charlatan, so he must be, too. God forbid you should actually have
>to look at the evidence.

LOL.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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From: agis...@gm.invalid (Ymir)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2021 17:25:11 -0600
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 by: Ymir - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 23:25 UTC

On 2021-06-08 12:42, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 12:31:00 PM UTC-4, Ymir wrote:
>> On 2021-06-07 18:44, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
>>>
>>> I wonder if arboreal male apes with large laryngeal airsacs filled with exhaled air which make loud long calls produce such ejectives.
>> No.
>
> -
> I don't know if mountain gorilla vocalizations differ from lowland gorilla vocalizations, I'd expect so.
Sure, because they belong to different populations. I highly doubt
altitude would have any relevance though.
And nothing you write below appears even remotely relevant to your
original query or my response.
André
> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12775758/
>
> The human larynx descends during infancy and the early juvenile periods, and this greatly contributes to the morphological foundations of speech development. This developmental phenomenon is believed to be unique to humans. This concept has formed a basis for paleoanthropological studies on the origin and evolution of human speech. We used magnetic resonance imaging to study the development of three living chimpanzees and found that their larynges also descend during infancy, as in human infants. This descent was completed primarily through the rapid descent of the laryngeal skeleton relative to the hyoid, but it was not accompanied by the descent of the hyoid itself [DD: which occurs in humans].
>
> Recall:
> Tratz and Heck's eight-point list of behavioral differences between the two Pan species still stands as the first outline of the areas of greatest contrast: sexual behavior, intensity of aggression, and vocal expression. Here follows their list in slightly compressed form:
>
> 5. The bonobo voice contains a and e vowels, whereas the chimpanzee uses more u and o vowels.
>
> 6. Bonobos are more vocal than chimpanzees.
>
> 7. Bonobos stretch their arms and shake their hands when calling, whereas chimpanzees do not.
>
> 8. Bonobos copulate more hominum and chimpanzees more canum.
>
> Given what we know now, points 1 through 4 are undoubtedly correct. Even though the difference in aggressivity is one of degree only, it cannot be denied that the treatment to which chimpanzees occasionally subject one another, including biting and full-force hitting, is rare among bonobos. Chimpanzees also erect their hair at the slightest provocation, pick up a branch, and challenge and intimidate anyone perceived as weaker than themselves: they are very much into status. By bonobo standards, the chimpanzee is a wild and untamed beast, or as Tratz and Heck put it: "The bonobo is an extraordinarily sensitive, gentle creature, far removed from the demoniacal primitive force [Urkraft] of the adult chimpanzee."
>
> As regards point 5, Blanche Learned's pioneer (albeit unwitting) comparison of vocal repertoires is worth noting. Before the species difference was established, she listened with a musical ear to Yerkes's two apes, Chim and Panzee. According to my calculations from Learned's phonetic transcriptions of hundreds of vocalizations, Chim mostly uttered a (48%), ae (38%), and oo (10%) sounds, whereas Panzee mostly uttered oo (68%), o (12%), and oa (7%) sounds. There is indeed no quicker way to distinguish the two ape species than by their voices. When Heck, who was the director of Hellabrunn Zoo, first heard bonobo calls coming out of a cloth-covered crate, he was convinced that he had received the wrong animals. Their calls are so high-pitched and penetrating that they do not even remind one of the typical drawn-out "huu ... huu" hooting of the chimpanzee. The difference in timbre between the voices of the two species may well be of the same magnitude as that between a small child and a grown man.
>
> It is also true that bonobos tend to gesticulate when calling, and that vocal activity among them is high. Bonobos are excitable creatures who frequently "comment" on minor events around them through high-pitched peeps and barks. Even if most of these vocalizations are noticeable only at close range, one definitely hears more vocal exchange in a group of bonobos than in a group of chimpanzees. Chimpanzees call when seriously alarmed, aroused by food, or in order to intimidate one another. Few animals can produce the din characteristic of chimpanzees, but much of it occurs on well-circumscribed occasions.
> -
>
> The position of the main air-sacs relative to the glottis would make
>> an egressive glottalic airstream far more difficult to achieve, and
>> that's ignoring the fact that non-human apes don't even have a descended
>> larynx.
>>
>> André
>
>>
>> --
>> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
>> service.

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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From: antonio...@sapo.pt (António Marques)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 01:58:50 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: António Marques - Wed, 9 Jun 2021 01:58 UTC

Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On 9/06/2021 12:12 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological
>>> characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a
>>> finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with
>>> high altitude. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
>>
>> It's not true?
>>
>> Pre-Nazi (to put it bluntly) ethnological "theory" postulated all sorts
>> of connections between race, geography,, culture, and language
>> features. None of them are legitimate.
>>
>> Aha/ The "lead researcher" is one Caleb Everett, whose name came
>> up in this ng just the other day.
>
> Well, that simplifies everything, doesn't it? You've decided his father
> is a charlatan, so he must be, too. God forbid you should actually have
> to look at the evidence.
>
>

According to the Internets, Caleb isn't a linguist.

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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From: benli...@ihug.co.nz (Ross Clark)
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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
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 by: Ross Clark - Wed, 9 Jun 2021 02:49 UTC

On 9/06/2021 1:58 p.m., António Marques wrote:
> Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>> On 9/06/2021 12:12 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological
>>>> characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a
>>>> finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with
>>>> high altitude. Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
>>>
>>> It's not true?
>>>
>>> Pre-Nazi (to put it bluntly) ethnological "theory" postulated all sorts
>>> of connections between race, geography,, culture, and language
>>> features. None of them are legitimate.
>>>
>>> Aha/ The "lead researcher" is one Caleb Everett, whose name came
>>> up in this ng just the other day.
>>
>> Well, that simplifies everything, doesn't it? You've decided his father
>> is a charlatan, so he must be, too. God forbid you should actually have
>> to look at the evidence.
>>
>>
>
> According to the Internets, Caleb isn't a linguist.

Well, his job is in an anthropology department, but he calls himself an
anthropological linguist.

https://theconversation.com/profiles/caleb-everett-357129

Judging from the range of subjects he's published on, I don't see any
good reason to refuse to call him a linguist.

http://www.calebeverett.org/publications.html

And if one did so refuse, what of interest would follow from that?

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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
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 by: António Marques - Wed, 9 Jun 2021 03:51 UTC

Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On 9/06/2021 1:58 p.m., António Marques wrote:
>> Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>> On 9/06/2021 12:12 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological
>>>>> characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a
>>>>> finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with
>>>>> high altitude. Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
>>>>
>>>> It's not true?
>>>>
>>>> Pre-Nazi (to put it bluntly) ethnological "theory" postulated all sorts
>>>> of connections between race, geography,, culture, and language
>>>> features. None of them are legitimate.
>>>>
>>>> Aha/ The "lead researcher" is one Caleb Everett, whose name came
>>>> up in this ng just the other day.
>>>
>>> Well, that simplifies everything, doesn't it? You've decided his father
>>> is a charlatan, so he must be, too. God forbid you should actually have
>>> to look at the evidence.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> According to the Internets, Caleb isn't a linguist.
>
> Well, his job is in an anthropology department, but he calls himself an
> anthropological linguist.
>
> https://theconversation.com/profiles/caleb-everett-357129

Others here call themselves 'paleo-etymologists'.

> Judging from the range of subjects he's published on, I don't see any
> good reason to refuse to call him a linguist.
>
> http://www.calebeverett.org/publications.html
>
> And if one did so refuse, what of interest would follow from that?

I apologise for not lending immediate linguistic credence to someone who
registers his own name as a domain like a businessperson would do and
self-describes as a practitioner of a field that may or may not be
recognisable as linguistics depending on the time of day.

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Wed, 9 Jun 2021 04:43 UTC

On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 7:25:13 PM UTC-4, Ymir wrote:
> On 2021-06-08 12:42, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 12:31:00 PM UTC-4, Ymir wrote:
> >> On 2021-06-07 18:44, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
> >>>> Hello,
> >>>>
> >>>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
> >>>
> >>> I wonder if arboreal male apes with large laryngeal airsacs filled with exhaled air which make loud long calls produce such ejectives.
> >> No.
> >
> > -
> > I don't know if mountain gorilla vocalizations differ from lowland gorilla vocalizations, I'd expect so.
> Sure, because they belong to different populations. I highly doubt
> altitude would have any relevance though.

You claim that different populations produce different vocalizations, but doubt elevation is relevant.
I see no reason to agree.

> And nothing you write below appears even remotely relevant to your
> original query or my response.

You missed this blunder:

that's ignoring the fact that non-human apes don't even have a descended
> >> larynx.
> >>
> >> André

We used magnetic resonance imaging to study the development of three living chimpanzees and found that their larynges also descend during infancy, as in human infants.

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Wed, 9 Jun 2021 04:46 UTC

On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 11:51:52 PM UTC-4, António Marques wrote:
> Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > On 9/06/2021 1:58 p.m., António Marques wrote:
> >> Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> >>> On 9/06/2021 12:12 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological
> >>>>> characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a
> >>>>> finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with
> >>>>> high altitude. Thoughts?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
> >>>>
> >>>> It's not true?
> >>>>
> >>>> Pre-Nazi (to put it bluntly) ethnological "theory" postulated all sorts
> >>>> of connections between race, geography,, culture, and language
> >>>> features. None of them are legitimate.
> >>>>
> >>>> Aha/ The "lead researcher" is one Caleb Everett, whose name came
> >>>> up in this ng just the other day.
> >>>
> >>> Well, that simplifies everything, doesn't it? You've decided his father
> >>> is a charlatan, so he must be, too. God forbid you should actually have
> >>> to look at the evidence.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> According to the Internets, Caleb isn't a linguist.
> >
> > Well, his job is in an anthropology department, but he calls himself an
> > anthropological linguist.
> >
> > https://theconversation.com/profiles/caleb-everett-357129
> Others here call themselves 'paleo-etymologists'.

Plural? Name them.

> > Judging from the range of subjects he's published on, I don't see any
> > good reason to refuse to call him a linguist.
> >
> > http://www.calebeverett.org/publications.html
> >
> > And if one did so refuse, what of interest would follow from that?
> I apologise for not lending immediate linguistic credence to someone who
> registers his own name as a domain like a businessperson would do and
> self-describes as a practitioner of a field that may or may not be
> recognisable as linguistics depending on the time of day.

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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From: benli...@ihug.co.nz (Ross Clark)
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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 17:04:57 +1200
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 by: Ross Clark - Wed, 9 Jun 2021 05:04 UTC

On 9/06/2021 3:51 p.m., António Marques wrote:
> Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>> On 9/06/2021 1:58 p.m., António Marques wrote:
>>> Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>>> On 9/06/2021 12:12 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological
>>>>>> characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a
>>>>>> finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with
>>>>>> high altitude. Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not true?
>>>>>
>>>>> Pre-Nazi (to put it bluntly) ethnological "theory" postulated all sorts
>>>>> of connections between race, geography,, culture, and language
>>>>> features. None of them are legitimate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aha/ The "lead researcher" is one Caleb Everett, whose name came
>>>>> up in this ng just the other day.
>>>>
>>>> Well, that simplifies everything, doesn't it? You've decided his father
>>>> is a charlatan, so he must be, too. God forbid you should actually have
>>>> to look at the evidence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> According to the Internets, Caleb isn't a linguist.
>>
>> Well, his job is in an anthropology department, but he calls himself an
>> anthropological linguist.
>>
>> https://theconversation.com/profiles/caleb-everett-357129
>
> Others here call themselves 'paleo-etymologists'.

And why shouldn't he?

>> Judging from the range of subjects he's published on, I don't see any
>> good reason to refuse to call him a linguist.
>>
>> http://www.calebeverett.org/publications.html
>>
>> And if one did so refuse, what of interest would follow from that?
>
> I apologise for not lending immediate linguistic credence to someone who
> registers his own name as a domain like a businessperson would do and

Lots of people that age do that.

> self-describes as a practitioner of a field that may or may not be
> recognisable as linguistics depending on the time of day.

I didn't demand anybody's credence; I just questioned refusing credence
on the basis of rather flimsy prejudices.

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 08:51:38 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Wed, 9 Jun 2021 06:51 UTC

Wed, 9 Jun 2021 01:58:50 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:

>Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>> On 9/06/2021 12:12 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological
>>>> characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a
>>>> finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with
>>>> high altitude. Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
>>>
>>> It's not true?
>>>
>>> Pre-Nazi (to put it bluntly) ethnological "theory" postulated all sorts
>>> of connections between race, geography,, culture, and language
>>> features. None of them are legitimate.
>>>
>>> Aha/ The "lead researcher" is one Caleb Everett, whose name came
>>> up in this ng just the other day.
>>
>> Well, that simplifies everything, doesn't it? You've decided his father
>> is a charlatan, so he must be, too. God forbid you should actually have
>> to look at the evidence.
>>
>>
>
>According to the Internets, Caleb isn't a linguist.

But in the discussion, he himself says he deals with languages a lot.

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Wed, 9 Jun 2021 06:53 UTC

>Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>> Judging from the range of subjects he's published on, I don't see any
>> good reason to refuse to call him a linguist.
>>
>> http://www.calebeverett.org/publications.html
>>
>> And if one did so refuse, what of interest would follow from that?

Wed, 9 Jun 2021 03:51:49 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>I apologise for not lending immediate linguistic credence to someone who
>registers his own name as a domain like a businessperson would do and
>self-describes as a practitioner of a field that may or may not be
>recognisable as linguistics depending on the time of day.

Dot com is for business, dot org is not.

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Wed, 9 Jun 2021 06:57 UTC

>> Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>> Judging from the range of subjects he's published on, I don't see any
>>> good reason to refuse to call him a linguist.
>>>
>>> http://www.calebeverett.org/publications.html
>>>
>>> And if one did so refuse, what of interest would follow from that?
>On 9/06/2021 3:51 p.m., António Marques wrote:
>> I apologise for not lending immediate linguistic credence to someone who
>> registers his own name as a domain like a businessperson would do and

Wed, 9 Jun 2021 17:04:57 +1200: Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
scribeva:
>Lots of people that age do that.

There's even a special TLD (top level domain) for that now: '.name'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_top-level_domains#ICANN-era_generic_top-level_domains

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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From: agis...@gm.invalid (Ymir)
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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 09:01:43 -0600
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 by: Ymir - Wed, 9 Jun 2021 15:01 UTC

On 2021-06-08 22:43, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 7:25:13 PM UTC-4, Ymir wrote:
>> On 2021-06-08 12:42, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 12:31:00 PM UTC-4, Ymir wrote:
>>>> On 2021-06-07 18:44, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if arboreal male apes with large laryngeal airsacs filled with exhaled air which make loud long calls produce such ejectives.
>>>> No.
>>>
>>> -
>>> I don't know if mountain gorilla vocalizations differ from lowland gorilla vocalizations, I'd expect so.
>> Sure, because they belong to different populations. I highly doubt
>> altitude would have any relevance though.
>
> You claim that different populations produce different vocalizations, but doubt elevation is relevant.
> I see no reason to agree.

Why would it matter?

>> And nothing you write below appears even remotely relevant to your
>> original query or my response.
>
> You missed this blunder:
>
> that's ignoring the fact that non-human apes don't even have a descended
>>>> larynx.
>>>>
>>>> André
>
> We used magnetic resonance imaging to study the development of three living chimpanzees and found that their larynges also descend during infancy, as in human infants.

Chimpanzee's have a *partially* descended larynx. Why don't you actually
compare a sagittal section of an adult chimpanzee's vocal anatomy with
that of an adult human? The differences are fairly obvious, and make it
clear that the articulation of ejectives would be rather implausible in
a chimp.

And your original question concerned 'arboreal apes' which I took to
mean orangutans or hylobatidae, not chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are at best
semi-arboreal.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography

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Subject: Re: Unique Phonology due to Geography
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Mon, 14 Jun 2021 09:35 UTC

On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 11:01:48 AM UTC-4, Ymir wrote:
> On 2021-06-08 22:43, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 7:25:13 PM UTC-4, Ymir wrote:
> >> On 2021-06-08 12:42, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 12:31:00 PM UTC-4, Ymir wrote:
> >>>> On 2021-06-07 18:44, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:13:19 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
> >>>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Has anyone heard of other examples of unique phonological characteristics stemming from geography? This article summarizes a finding that claims ejective consonants have a strong correlation with high altitude. Thoughts?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01154-geography-languages.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I wonder if arboreal male apes with large laryngeal airsacs filled with exhaled air which make loud long calls produce such ejectives.
> >>>> No.
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> I don't know if mountain gorilla vocalizations differ from lowland gorilla vocalizations, I'd expect so.
> >> Sure, because they belong to different populations. I highly doubt
> >> altitude would have any relevance though.
> >
> > You claim that different populations produce different vocalizations, but doubt elevation is relevant.
> > I see no reason to agree.
> Why would it matter?
> >> And nothing you write below appears even remotely relevant to your
> >> original query or my response.
> >
> > You missed this blunder:
> >
> > that's ignoring the fact that non-human apes don't even have a descended
> >>>> larynx.
> >>>>
> >>>> André
> >
> > We used magnetic resonance imaging to study the development of three living chimpanzees and found that their larynges also descend during infancy, as in human infants.
> Chimpanzee's have a *partially* descended larynx. Why don't you actually
> compare a sagittal section of an adult chimpanzee's vocal anatomy with
> that of an adult human?

https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/groupsioattachments/41741/83498416/71454/1?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJECNKOVMCCU3ATNQ&Expires=1623662991&Signature=ag98QYea9XRXOizzqWXsRydjabg%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3D%22image1.png%22

Would need also pics of macaque and gibbon for comparison.

The differences are fairly obvious, and make it
> clear that the articulation of ejectives would be rather implausible in
> a chimp.
>
> And your original question concerned 'arboreal apes' which I took to
> mean orangutans or hylobatidae, not chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are at best
> semi-arboreal.
> André
>
> --
> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
> service.

I meant apes spending their lives mostly in trees, rather than spending almost none.

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