On Wednesday 29 December 2021 at 12:16:36 UTC, littor...@gmail.com wrote:

>>>> When a small monkey evolved into a gibbon,
>>>> around 25 ma,
>
> No monkey ever evolved into a gibbon.

I presume you're implying "not directly
evolved". Gibbons had (at some point)
ancestors that were monkeys.

> Cercopithecoid/hominoid ? c 30 Ma.

Not a sentence in English. Are you trying to
say something?

> early hominoids were much larger.

How do you know? Or is this just an evidence-free
belief?

>> The slow maturation and slow
>> gestation suggest that the necessary levels
>> of skill (and knowledge?) are much harder
>> to acquire.
>
> Wishful thinking.

Not so. Maturation periods are a part of
the normal selection process, and are as long
as they need to be. A family (or population)
that can have successful offspring, which
mature in (say) 6 years, will do better than
one that takes 6.5 years. It will produce
more grandchildren, and more in successive
generations.

>> 1. From studies of both wild and captive animals, gibbons are thought
>> to reach sexual maturity at about 6 to 8 years of age, and the siamang
>> (Hylobates syndactylus) at about 8 to 9 years.
>> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31952414/ >
>> 2. Age at puberty is given, and some variation discussed. The talapoin,
>> a very small monkey, becomes adult at 4½ years for females, 1 or 2
>> years later for males. The patas, a rather large monkey, becomes adult
>> at 2½ years, for females, and 1 or 2 years later for males.
>> https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/155792
>
> Fine, confirms my view.

Every paragraph in every publication (incl
https://weeklyworldnews.com/
will 'confirm your view'. It's what happens
when you stop trying to be objective.

>>>> This didn't matter much
>>>> at the time, since it was in the high canopy,
>
>>> No, no, Pauli, it was in the very low canopy.
>
>> If they'd lived in the low canopy, they'd have
>> encountered bodies of water much more
>> often and retained their ability to swim.
>
> Homonid/pongid c 15 Ma (= Mesopotamian Seaway closure??):

Is that supposed to be an answer?

> hylobatids had >10 My to lose swimming abilities.

We are not talking only about hylobatids,
but about apes generally (including humans).
A distinctive feature of every species of
Hominoidea is the lack of an instinctive
capacity to swim. It's present in almost all
other terrestrial animals, including primates.
It was lost at some point -- most likely at the
origin of the taxon.

Why was it lost?

>>> Hylobatid brachiation evolved probably much later, after contact with
>>> pongids
>
>> Since this is what you've always assumed,
>> why then, it must be true.

No answer.

> Of course, obvious to anybody with a little bit of biological insight:
> hominoids (vs monkeys):
> -tail loss (coccyx in pelvic bottom)
> -central (not dorsal) spine
> -very wide sternum (Latisternalia)
> -very wide thorax = upright
> -very wide pelvis
> -arms & legs laterally-directed (not ventrally)
> -found on islands
> -etc.
> IOW, they were not pronograde,
> the trunk didn't hang from the spine as in cercopiths,
> but a centrally-placed spine held the body upright:
> early hominoids were often vertical & not exclusively arboreal (e.g. no tail):

Why recite all this again?
Prayers are not a part of normal science.

.... snipped Pauli's usual blabla

> > Of course, obvious to anybody with a little bit of biological insight:
> > hominoids (vs monkeys):
> > -tail loss (coccyx in pelvic bottom)
> > -central (not dorsal) spine
> > -very wide sternum (Latisternalia)
> > -very wide thorax = upright
> > -very wide pelvis
> > -arms & legs laterally-directed (not ventrally)
> > -found on islands
> > -etc.
> > IOW, they were not pronograde,
> > the trunk didn't hang from the spine as in cercopiths,
> > but a centrally-placed spine held the body upright:
> > early hominoids were often vertical & not exclusively arboreal (e.g. no tail):

> Why recite all this again?

Because you're miserably incapable of answering this. :-D

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 6:09:57 PM UTC-5, Paul Crowley wrote:

> See vertical climber: https://youtu.be/Gregory

Darn, video not available anymore.

> Lateral swinging habitually selected against pronograde swimming, and supplanted it over wooded streams.
> Laryngeal air sacs may have enlarged as upright floats to keep head above surface and grasping branches became an alternative to swimming in larger apes.

On Sunday 26 December 2021 at 14:20:31 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

>> So our monkey ancestors certainly could
>> swim -- as well as any monkeys today. But apes can't.
>> So when and why did that happen? What were the
>> selective advantages in losing that ability?
>
> See vertical climber: https://youtu.be/Gregory

Has been removed from youtube

> Lateral swinging habitually selected against pronograde
> swimming, and supplanted it over wooded streams.

This is nonsense. The loss of an inherited
ability (going back to the first mammals)
is a major event. 'Lateral swinging' is not
going to remove it.

There was a major evolutionary event in
the ape taxon which selected against
swimming. What was it?

> Laryngeal air sacs may have enlarged as upright floats to keep
> head above surface and grasping branches became an alternative
> to swimming in larger apes.

Just silly. Larger apes will encounter bodies of
water regularly in their daily lives. Often there
will be food (and other resources) on an island
in a lake or river, or on the other side of a river.
Often there will be plants in the water they find
edible, or which contain vital elements (such a
iodine). When populations need to move,
migration over a river or other body of water is
often highly desirable. They'll fall into water
(by accident) at least once in their lifetimes, on
average.

> Crocs.

All other primates can see, and usually avoid
crocs.

> The European miocene apes (quasi-hylobatids) could
> probably still swim while evolving slow brachiation, but those in
> tropical Africa/Asia became non-swimmers.

Why the difference?

On Tuesday, January 4, 2022 at 4:01:04 PM UTC-5, Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Sunday 26 December 2021 at 14:20:31 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
>
> >> So our monkey ancestors certainly could
> >> swim -- as well as any monkeys today. But apes can't.
> >> So when and why did that happen? What were the
> >> selective advantages in losing that ability?
> >
> > See vertical climber: https://youtu.be/Gregory
> Has been removed from youtube
> > Lateral swinging habitually selected against pronograde
> > swimming, and supplanted it over wooded streams.
> This is nonsense. The loss of an inherited
> ability (going back to the first mammals)
> is a major event. 'Lateral swinging' is not
> going to remove it.

Vertical climbing requires lateral mobility: qpal/bpal walk or swim or swing.

> There was a major evolutionary event in
> the ape taxon which selected against
> swimming. What was it?
Slow swinging, loss of arb. leaping/terr. walking laterally.

> > Laryngeal air sacs may have enlarged as upright floats to keep
> > head above surface and grasping branches became an alternative
> > to swimming in larger apes.
> Just silly. Larger apes will encounter bodies of
> water regularly in their daily lives.

Swinging reduced swimming in miocene apes.

Often there
> will be food (and other resources) on an island
> in a lake or river, or on the other side of a river.

They did not eat them.

> Often there will be plants in the water they find
> edible, or which contain vital elements (such a
> iodine). When populations need to move,
> migration over a river or other body of water is
> often highly desirable. They'll fall into water
> (by accident) at least once in their lifetimes, on
> average.
>
> > Crocs.
>
> All other primates can see, and usually avoid
> crocs.

So?

> > The European miocene apes (quasi-hylobatids) could
> > probably still swim while evolving slow brachiation, but those in
> > tropical Africa/Asia became non-swimmers.
> Why the difference?

Increased arbor-aerial locomotion = decreased aquatic locomotion.

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

> I realized I wasn't really answering your deeper question about brachiation and swimming. I've got a new Motorola cell phone coming, I'll respond when its activated. My current phone is corrupted, constantly need to fix keyboard errors.

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/677696735946145792

On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 7:12:28 PM UTC-5, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 2:44:47 AM UTC-5, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> > On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 11:09:56 AM UTC-5, Paul Crowley wrote:
> > > On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 1:07:18 AM UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> > >
> > > >> So you're saying
> > > >> A) That European miocene apes evolved from
> > > >> monkeys and were the first apes, and that
> > > >> they were first primates to develop
> > > >> brachiation . . . ?
> > > >>
> > > >> B) That this was SLOW brachiation . . .?
> > > >>
> > > >> C) That they did this BEFORE some migrated
> > > >> to SE Asia, where some descendants evolved
> > > >> FAST brachiation and became gibbons . . . ?
> > > >>
> > > >> D) That those remaining in Europe were the
> > > >> ancestors of gorillas and chimps, while those
> > > >> moving to SE Asia were the ancestors of
> > > >> orangutans . . . ?
> > > >
> > > > That is one logical possibility, but put the miocene ape expansion center around the southern Black Sea
> > > The exact geographical location of this supposed
> > > event is entirely beside the point.
> > No, not in Swiss Alps nor Norway, but Germany, Austria, Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece, Spain had fossils but the expansion probably spread out from the Black Sea region.
> > Which is that
> > > species do not evolve -- for no particular reason --
> > > at great cost and over much time, new body
> > > plans.
> > They do when it is advantageous.
> > >
> > > Giraffes didn't get long necks so that they could
> > > survey the country better, and then discover
> > > that they could eat the leaves of high trees.
> > > Scorpions didn't evolve stinging tails to impress
> > > potential mates, and then discover that they
> > > were handy for killing prey and scaring off
> > > potential predators . . etc., etc.
> I realized I wasn't really answering your deeper question about brachiation and swimming. I've got a new Motorola cell phone coming, I'll respond when its activated. My current phone is corrupted, constantly need to fix keyboard errors.
I'll let PC re-ask the question. My phone is great.

On Thursday 3 March 2022 at 17:40:39 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

>> > > Which is that
> > > > species do not evolve -- for no particular reason --
> > > > at great cost and over much time, new body
> > > > plans.
> > >
> > > They do when it is advantageous.
> > >
> > > > Giraffes didn't get long necks so that they could
> > > > survey the country better, and then discover
> > > > that they could eat the leaves of high trees

>> I realized I wasn't really answering your deeper question about brachiation
>> and swimming. I've got a new Motorola cell phone coming, I'll respond
>> when its activated. My current phone is corrupted, constantly need to fix
>> keyboard errors.
>
> I'll let PC re-ask the question. My phone is great.

The initial question was "Why can't apes swim?"
That leads to others, such as: "How did the ape
taxon form?"

Unlike nearly every other terrestrial vertebrate,
they are not born with that capacity. Some
(e.g. humans) can acquire the skill with
training.

You say that 'slow climbing' (or some such)
did it -- while admitting that those behaviours
are common among monkeys none of which
lost their ability to swim (nor evolved
brachiation, centralised spines,flat chests, etc.).

The loss of swimming abiilty might seem fairly
minor but, since it's virtually unknown among
reptiles and mammals, it can't be. I suggest
that it arose in apes in a similar manner to the
loss of flying ability in many species of island
birds. They evolve a distaste for flying over
water since, in strong winds, they can get
blown away over the sea and can't get back.
Likewise, gibbons almost certainly evolved on
an island in South-East Asia surrounded by
fast-flowing rivers. Swimming was likely to
have the same effect. They learnt to avoid
bodies of water.

Clearly the loss of this ability came in at the
inception of the ape taxon, along with the
large number of radical morphological changes
(including -- as a minor matter --the loss of the
tail). Chests became wide and flat instead of
narrow and deep; shoulder joints moved to the
top corners of the chest, the scapulae moved
from the side of the chest to the back.
Shoulder joints became much stronger and
more flexible.

As the rivers changed course, the first
population of gibbons was able to spread to
other areas, and become a diverse taxon. Some
of its species became larger (as we see with
modern siamangs) and found new niches lower
in the canopy, eventually finding their way to
Europe and Africa.

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 3:49:48 PM UTC-5, Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Thursday 3 March 2022 at 17:40:39 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
>
> >> > > Which is that
> > > > > species do not evolve -- for no particular reason --
> > > > > at great cost and over much time, new body
> > > > > plans.
> > > >
> > > > They do when it is advantageous.
> > > >
> > > > > Giraffes didn't get long necks so that they could
> > > > > survey the country better, and then discover
> > > > > that they could eat the leaves of high trees
> >> I realized I wasn't really answering your deeper question about brachiation
> >> and swimming. I've got a new Motorola cell phone coming, I'll respond
> >> when its activated. My current phone is corrupted, constantly need to fix
> >> keyboard errors.
> >
> > I'll let PC re-ask the question. My phone is great.
> The initial question was "Why can't apes swim?"

Apes /hominoids evolved vertical upright climbing and lateral upright slow brachiation and arboreal upright bipedal locomotion, their hands and feet specialized for grasping, hook-like features gradually increased but weren't present yet, and swimming became less and less useful. Laryngeal air sacs developed as a result of panic-stimuli (dominance upper body inflated, vocal hyperventilation prevention, and probably arboreal falls producing water upper-body/face-up flotation rather than pronograde swimming posture.

> That leads to others, such as: "How did the ape
> taxon form?"
>
> Unlike nearly every other terrestrial vertebrate,
> they are not born with that capacity. Some
> (e.g. humans) can acquire the skill with
> training.

Homo split from other hominoids ~6ma becoming forest floor dwellers due to the chromosome inversion and inverted their shelters and their body's limb lengths, and lost their small? air sacs because loud vocal & upper-body displays became less significant than quiet speech and leg power in lateral upright bipedalism with carrying toddlers/shelters/tools.
>
> You say that 'slow climbing'

I never mentioned 'slow climbing' before, just upright vertical climbing and slow brachiation in early hominoids, further specialized by today's great apes. No Old World Monkey had these traits, being primarily pronograde terrestrially, arboreally and aquatically

(or some such)
> did it -- while admitting that those behaviours
> are common among monkeys none of which
> lost their ability to swim (nor evolved
> brachiation, centralised spines,flat chests, etc.).
>
> The loss of swimming abiilty might seem fairly
> minor but, since it's virtually unknown among
> reptiles and mammals, it can't be. I suggest
> that it arose in apes in a similar manner to the
> loss of flying ability in many species of island
> birds. They evolve a distaste for flying over
> water since, in strong winds, they can get
> blown away over the sea and can't get back.
> Likewise, gibbons almost certainly evolved on
> an island in South-East Asia surrounded by
> fast-flowing rivers. Swimming was likely to
> have the same effect. They learnt to avoid
> bodies of water.

Gibbons primary habitat is rainforest along shallow streams, not large rivers, though that may be a result of immigration of monkey troops foraging along rivers.

Contd

>
> Clearly the loss of this ability came in at the
> inception of the ape taxon, along with the
> large number of radical morphological changes
> (including -- as a minor matter --the loss of the
> tail). Chests became wide and flat instead of
> narrow and deep; shoulder joints moved to the
> top corners of the chest, the scapulae moved
> from the side of the chest to the back.
> Shoulder joints became much stronger and
> more flexible.
>
> As the rivers changed course, the first
> population of gibbons was able to spread to
> other areas, and become a diverse taxon. Some
> of its species became larger (as we see with
> modern siamangs) and found new niches lower
> in the canopy, eventually finding their way to
> Europe and Africa.

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 5:10:38 PM UTC-5, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 3:49:48 PM UTC-5, Paul Crowley wrote:
> > On Thursday 3 March 2022 at 17:40:39 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> >
> > >> > > Which is that
> > > > > > species do not evolve -- for no particular reason --
> > > > > > at great cost and over much time, new body
> > > > > > plans.
> > > > >
> > > > > They do when it is advantageous.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Giraffes didn't get long necks so that they could
> > > > > > survey the country better, and then discover
> > > > > > that they could eat the leaves of high trees
> > >> I realized I wasn't really answering your deeper question about brachiation
> > >> and swimming. I've got a new Motorola cell phone coming, I'll respond
> > >> when its activated. My current phone is corrupted, constantly need to fix
> > >> keyboard errors.
> > >
> > > I'll let PC re-ask the question. My phone is great.
> > The initial question was "Why can't apes swim?"
> Apes /hominoids evolved vertical upright climbing and lateral upright slow brachiation and arboreal upright bipedal locomotion, their hands and feet specialized for grasping, hook-like features gradually increased but weren't present yet, and swimming became less and less useful. Laryngeal air sacs developed as a result of panic-stimuli (dominance upper body inflated, vocal hyperventilation prevention, and probably arboreal falls producing water upper-body/face-up flotation rather than pronograde swimming posture.
> > That leads to others, such as: "How did the ape
> > taxon form?"
> >
> > Unlike nearly every other terrestrial vertebrate,
> > they are not born with that capacity. Some
> > (e.g. humans) can acquire the skill with
> > training.
> Homo split from other hominoids ~6ma becoming forest floor dwellers due to the chromosome inversion and inverted their shelters and their body's limb lengths, and lost their small? air sacs because loud vocal & upper-body displays became less significant than quiet speech and leg power in lateral upright bipedalism with carrying toddlers/shelters/tools.
> >
> > You say that 'slow climbing'
> I never mentioned 'slow climbing' before, just upright vertical climbing and slow brachiation in early hominoids, further specialized by today's great apes. No Old World Monkey had these traits, being primarily pronograde terrestrially, arboreally and aquatically
> (or some such)
> > did it -- while admitting that those behaviours
> > are common among monkeys none of which
> > lost their ability to swim (nor evolved
> > brachiation, centralised spines,flat chests, etc.).
> >
> > The loss of swimming abiilty might seem fairly
> > minor but, since it's virtually unknown among
> > reptiles and mammals, it can't be. I suggest
> > that it arose in apes in a similar manner to the
> > loss of flying ability in many species of island
> > birds. They evolve a distaste for flying over
> > water since, in strong winds, they can get
> > blown away over the sea and can't get back.
> > Likewise, gibbons almost certainly evolved on
> > an island in South-East Asia surrounded by
> > fast-flowing rivers. Swimming was likely to
> > have the same effect. They learnt to avoid
> > bodies of water.
> Gibbons primary habitat is rainforest along shallow streams, not large rivers, though that may be a result of immigration of monkey troops foraging along rivers.
>
> Contd

You contend that isolated/islanded apes and avians were selected against transit through (fast/strong) (air/water) currents, and this resulted in morphological/behavioral/genetic evolution diverging from their ancestral patterns.
There are many species of flightless cranes occupying islands, though they resemble each other, their closest kin are flighted cranes, not similar flightless cranes on other islands (usually, some exceptions). Afaik, gibbon species have different chromosome counts, so at least there, this might agree with your claim. But great apes share the same count of 48 chromosomes, suggesting a non-islanded situation.

> > Clearly the loss of this ability came in at the
> > inception of the ape taxon, along with the
> > large number of radical morphological changes
> > (including -- as a minor matter --the loss of the
> > tail).

The crab eating macaque, the oyster eating capuchin, the brachiating spider monkey and the swimming proboscis monkey all have very long tails.

Chests became wide and flat instead of
> > narrow and deep;

Many semi-aquatics partly share this, not deep nor flat, but rounded and broad

shoulder joints moved to the
> > top corners of the chest, the scapulae moved
> > from the side of the chest to the back.
> > Shoulder joints became much stronger and
> > more flexible.

Surely adaptations selected for by vertical upright climbing & slow brachiation, arboreal foraging and sleeping. But plausibly associated with anti-swimming evolution. (Complementing laryngeal air sac enlargement not seen in monkeys).

> > As the rivers changed course, the first
> > population of gibbons was able to spread to
> > other areas, and become a diverse taxon. Some
> > of its species became larger (as we see with
> > modern siamangs) and found new niches lower
> > in the canopy, eventually finding their way to
> > Europe and Africa.

The oldest fossil gibbon is from India iirc, and some similar (later?) fossils in Europe.
At this time, due to paucity of fossils, it is hard to accept or test any claims.
Yours is not merely fantasy, there is logical structure and some potentially supporting evidence.
DD