The arsehole John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:

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> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 03:33:18 +0000
> From: John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Win11 repair
> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 20:33:14 -0700
> Organization: Highland Tech
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In article <0rpeiid4qmutj96f8apnj33bbpv35t45tl@4ax.com>, jl@
997PotHill.com says...
> >
> >> A new PC is a traumatic life event.
> >
> >REALLY? Win SEVEN?? I think you need to upgrade your computers more than once a decade!
>
> They finally started breaking. Otherwise, my old Win7 machines worked
> fine. I'm typing this on the last one, at home. After, whenever, I get
> one Win11 machine properly set up, we'll clone three copies.
>
> Win11 is really a horror.
>
>
>

For many users the only need to upgrade from the win XT is because
programs will not run on the older system. Main reason I first went to
win 10 was Turbo Tax needed it. Now just what real feature of TT would
be needed that it takes win 10 ? Same as for older software for many
users. Office 98 will do for most home users. Then win 10 'broke' some
of my older programs so I had to buy newer versions of them. So now to
do things I have to have old laptops and desk tops with win 98, xt and
win 10 on them. I just bought a used win 11 computer off ebay as an
older computer quit on me and I feel that in a year or two win 10 will
not run TT.

On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 15:04:57 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

>
>I just "upgraded" from Windows 7 to 11. The new PC is a lot faster
>running Spice.
>
>But the File Explorer is a horror. When I drag/drop a file, the cursor
>becomes a giant ugly icon. When I copy a file where a copy already
>exists, I have to go through a secondary dialog to compare file
>attributes.
>
>If I right-click on a file, simple things like delete and rename are a
>secondary operation!
>
>So, does anyone use a Classic Shell type add-on to get things back to
>simple? Our IT consultant doesn't want me to do that, but the W11
>stuff is a horror.
>
>A new PC is a traumatic life event.
>

Got my mother's W7 to W11 'upgrade' to fairly resemble
previous GUI prefs using the shell and other powershell
manipulations, last October.

I thought that Edge had been expunged, only to find it
has self-reinstalled itself almost exactly 12 months later.
Previous uninstall work still exist and uninstall mthod finds
later version (117.0.2045.60) doesn't seem to want to
cooperate.

While present, it nobbles all non-MS browser activity.
Perhaps I should take out Chrome too - left it in as a
last resort in negotiating chrome-only web sites.

This is definitely NOT a new PC.

RL

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 11:43:39 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 15:04:57 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>I just "upgraded" from Windows 7 to 11. The new PC is a lot faster
>>running Spice.
>>
>>But the File Explorer is a horror. When I drag/drop a file, the cursor
>>becomes a giant ugly icon. When I copy a file where a copy already
>>exists, I have to go through a secondary dialog to compare file
>>attributes.
>>
>>If I right-click on a file, simple things like delete and rename are a
>>secondary operation!
>>
>>So, does anyone use a Classic Shell type add-on to get things back to
>>simple? Our IT consultant doesn't want me to do that, but the W11
>>stuff is a horror.
>>
>>A new PC is a traumatic life event.
>>
>
>Got my mother's W7 to W11 'upgrade' to fairly resemble
>previous GUI prefs using the shell and other powershell
>manipulations, last October.

I'd be interested in what all you did. My new W11 machine is getting
to be mostly usable, after a lot of work.

>
>I thought that Edge had been expunged, only to find it
>has self-reinstalled itself almost exactly 12 months later.
>Previous uninstall work still exist and uninstall mthod finds
>later version (117.0.2045.60) doesn't seem to want to
>cooperate.

It is tempting to turn off updates. I hate Microsoft.

>
>While present, it nobbles all non-MS browser activity.
>Perhaps I should take out Chrome too - left it in as a
>last resort in negotiating chrome-only web sites.

I'm running Firefox and it works. I have enough RAM on my new machines
to handle the 30ish processes that it runs.

Irfanview works, but I can't associate it to jpeg files. Windows has
some dreadful jpeg viewer that it won't give up.

I installed Foxit as a rational pdf viewer.

Edrawings, useful bloatware, works fine.

PADS works!

LT Spice works fine. It got a little buggy on the Win7 boxes.

My homebrew compiled PowerBasic engineering apps work, once I found
the proper console emulation choice. Out of the box, they were really
weird.

Image files on cameras are somehow locked to not allow any
unauthorized viewers to open them. Did I mention that I hate
Microsoft?

torsdag den 12. oktober 2023 kl. 16.37.44 UTC+2 skrev Ralph Mowery:
> In article <0rpeiid4qmutj96f8...@4ax.com>, jl@
> 997PotHill.com says...
> > >
> > >> A new PC is a traumatic life event.
> > >
> > >REALLY? Win SEVEN?? I think you need to upgrade your computers more than once a decade!
> >
> > They finally started breaking. Otherwise, my old Win7 machines worked
> > fine. I'm typing this on the last one, at home. After, whenever, I get
> > one Win11 machine properly set up, we'll clone three copies.
> >
> > Win11 is really a horror.
> >
> >
> >
> For many users the only need to upgrade from the win XT is because
> programs will not run on the older system. Main reason I first went to
> win 10 was Turbo Tax needed it. Now just what real feature of TT would
> be needed that it takes win 10 ? Same as for older software for many
> users. Office 98 will do for most home users. Then win 10 'broke' some
> of my older programs so I had to buy newer versions of them. So now to
> do things I have to have old laptops and desk tops with win 98, xt and
> win 10 on them. I just bought a used win 11 computer off ebay as an
> older computer quit on me and I feel that in a year or two win 10 will
> not run TT.

no such thing as windows XT you must mean XP, and you must be joking
to think that they are a usable option, support ended almost 20 years ago
if connected to the internet you'll be hijacked in hours

The arsehole Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

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The idiot legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

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> From: legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Win11 repair
> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 11:43:39 -0400
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The idiot John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:

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> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:12:19 +0000
> From: John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Win11 repair
> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 09:12:15 -0700
> Organization: Highland Tech
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The arsehole Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Win11 repair
> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 10:37:35 -0400
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In article <f0648c0c-c344-4f29-bebf-2696aa6d8de0n@googlegroups.com>,
langwadt@fonz.dk says...
>
> no such thing as windows XT you must mean XP, and you must be joking
> to think that they are a usable option, support ended almost 20 years ago
> if connected to the internet you'll be hijacked in hours
>
>
>

Yes, typo should be XP. I have an XP that was connected to the
internet for many years up to about a week ago when something hapened to
it. Never hijacked.

Outside of newer programs that required a newer operating system it did
all I neded it to. Then Chrome quit updating and some web sites would
not work and Turbo Tax would not work. I just wonder what great feature
was added to TT that it woukd not work under XP.

The idiot Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Win11 repair
> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:07:35 -0400
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On 11/10/2023 22:13, john larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 02:24:40 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:
>
>> john larkin wrote:
>>>
>>> I just "upgraded" from Windows 7 to 11. The new PC is a lot faster
>>> running Spice.
>>>
>>> But the File Explorer is a horror. When I drag/drop a file, the cursor
>>> becomes a giant ugly icon. When I copy a file where a copy already
>>> exists, I have to go through a secondary dialog to compare file
>>> attributes.
>>>
>>> If I right-click on a file, simple things like delete and rename are a
>>> secondary operation!
>>
>> reg.exe add "HKCU\Software\Classes\CLSID\{86ca1aa0-34aa-4e8b-a509-50c905bae2a2}\InprocServer32" /f /ve
>>
>> restores the familiar <right click> popup menu, for the current user.
>> The popup menu adjustment and additional alterations are available at:
>>
>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/worst-windows-11-features-fix-them>
>>
>> Danke,
>
> The registry patch worked!
>
> 1e6 thanks.

It is a bit sad that you have to attack the registry with a flint axe to
make Win11 more comfortable to use though. Some of their "improvements"
make things much harder to do and for no good reason.

My pet hate was the ribbon interface on Office 2007 it drove experienced
users nuts! Give me that annoying "clippy" thing back any day!

--
Martin Brown

The arsehole Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Win11 repair
> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 20:23:28 +0100
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On 12/10/2023 17:18, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> torsdag den 12. oktober 2023 kl. 16.37.44 UTC+2 skrev Ralph Mowery:
>> In article <0rpeiid4qmutj96f8...@4ax.com>, jl@
>> 997PotHill.com says...
>>>>
>>>>> A new PC is a traumatic life event.
>>>>
>>>> REALLY? Win SEVEN?? I think you need to upgrade your computers more than once a decade!
>>>
>>> They finally started breaking. Otherwise, my old Win7 machines worked
>>> fine. I'm typing this on the last one, at home. After, whenever, I get
>>> one Win11 machine properly set up, we'll clone three copies.
>>>
>>> Win11 is really a horror.

I don't find it that bad actually and the support for performance core
scheduling is much better than in Win7. I got a Win11 machine because it
was blisteringly fast and I really needed the speed up.

I have a Win8.x (bad OS version think Picasso on a bad acid trip)
portable for testing on that OS (bought for that very purpose). And I
managed to skip Win10 entirely.

Throughout my working life I have only ever upgraded when a new machine
would be 3x faster at handling the workload than its predecessor. That
used to be roughly every 3 years for decades.

Now it is more like once a decade if that! My normal office machine is
just over a decade old hardware now and apart from replacing the
spinning rust with an SSD and adding more ram when prices fell has been
more than adequate for all but the most demanding tasks.

>> For many users the only need to upgrade from the win XT is because
>> programs will not run on the older system. Main reason I first went to

I still have an XP machine but no longer connected to any network for
legacy testing and also for ancient programmers that require bit bashing
on a physical parallel printer port. I boot it every once in a while
just to make sure the disk heads don't stick.

>> win 10 was Turbo Tax needed it. Now just what real feature of TT would
>> be needed that it takes win 10 ? Same as for older software for many
>> users. Office 98 will do for most home users. Then win 10 'broke' some

Office 97 was a fairly good vintage, the next decent one after that was
2002/2003. Then there was the abortion of 2007 which out of the box had
so many bugs it was unusable. Launched about the same time as Vista
Office 2007 never took all the flak that it deserved and Vista did.

>> of my older programs so I had to buy newer versions of them. So now to
>> do things I have to have old laptops and desk tops with win 98, xt and
>> win 10 on them. I just bought a used win 11 computer off ebay as an
>> older computer quit on me and I feel that in a year or two win 10 will
>> not run TT.

The pro version of the OS will let you run a convincing enough virtual
machine for most of XP onwards to be satisfied with their lot. The only
ting you can't do is run legacy code in the x64 environment (for obvious
reasons). Right click, Properties, Compatibility usually works.

The things that don't work tend to be doing naughty things in code.

> no such thing as windows XT you must mean XP, and you must be joking
> to think that they are a usable option, support ended almost 20 years ago
> if connected to the internet you'll be hijacked in hours

There is still plenty of big scientific kit (20 year lifetime) running
on XP era PCs some of them with bespoke hardware that doesn't get on
with modern faster CPUs so certain machines have higher than book value.
(as do certain memory upgrades used in particular kit)

Manufacturers almost never release drivers for such old equipment when
new OS's are released so the poor users are stuck in a time warp.

It annoys the hell out of corporate IT because the laboratory network
containing a mix of modern kit and antiques has to be very carefully
firewalled from the rest of the enterprise. Old and unsupported OS's are
very vulnerable if connected to the internet.

--
Martin Brown

The arsehole Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Win11 repair
> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 21:43:25 +0100
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On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 20:23:28 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 11/10/2023 22:13, john larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 02:24:40 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>
>>> john larkin wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I just "upgraded" from Windows 7 to 11. The new PC is a lot faster
>>>> running Spice.
>>>>
>>>> But the File Explorer is a horror. When I drag/drop a file, the cursor
>>>> becomes a giant ugly icon. When I copy a file where a copy already
>>>> exists, I have to go through a secondary dialog to compare file
>>>> attributes.
>>>>
>>>> If I right-click on a file, simple things like delete and rename are a
>>>> secondary operation!
>>>
>>> reg.exe add "HKCU\Software\Classes\CLSID\{86ca1aa0-34aa-4e8b-a509-50c905bae2a2}\InprocServer32" /f /ve
>>>
>>> restores the familiar <right click> popup menu, for the current user.
>>> The popup menu adjustment and additional alterations are available at:
>>>
>>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/worst-windows-11-features-fix-them>
>>>
>>> Danke,
>>
>> The registry patch worked!
>>
>> 1e6 thanks.
>
>It is a bit sad that you have to attack the registry with a flint axe to
>make Win11 more comfortable to use though. Some of their "improvements"
>make things much harder to do and for no good reason.

Clearly some of the old ui stuff is still there. They just make them
hard to enable.

>
>My pet hate was the ribbon interface on Office 2007 it drove experienced
>users nuts! Give me that annoying "clippy" thing back any day!

I can't get W11 to associate Jpegs with Irfanview. Microsoft insists
that I use their ugly viewer.

I can drag/drop a jpeg onto the Irfanview icon, now that I actually
have an Irfanview icon.

But not from a pic on a phone.

All too weird.

torsdag den 12. oktober 2023 kl. 22.43.36 UTC+2 skrev Martin Brown:
> There is still plenty of big scientific kit (20 year lifetime) running
> on XP era PCs some of them with bespoke hardware that doesn't get on
> with modern faster CPUs so certain machines have higher than book value.
> (as do certain memory upgrades used in particular kit)
>
> Manufacturers almost never release drivers for such old equipment when
> new OS's are released so the poor users are stuck in a time warp.
>
> It annoys the hell out of corporate IT because the laboratory network
> containing a mix of modern kit and antiques has to be very carefully
> firewalled from the rest of the enterprise. Old and unsupported OS's are
> very vulnerable if connected to the internet.

that is a special case, no ones doing that for a home/office computer and it would be pointless

The arsehole Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

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The idiot john larkin <jl@650pot.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
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> From: john larkin <jl@650pot.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: Win11 repair
> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 14:09:46 -0700
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On 10/12/2023 7:37 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> For many users the only need to upgrade from the win XT is because
> programs will not run on the older system.

Or, drivers for particular "new" I/O devices (scanners, printers, etc.)
W7 has replaced XP as the "legacy system that folks cling to".
Statistics are misleading as there are many "customers" who are really
single *users* (e.g., businesses that have thousands of seats where
the REAL users have no say in the OS they use; that decision made by a
group that has an interest in perpetually changing things -- IT!)

> Main reason I first went to
> win 10 was Turbo Tax needed it. Now just what real feature of TT would
> be needed that it takes win 10 ?

All of our (Windows) machines, here, run W7. But, none (save this one)
are routed so not vulnerable to remote exploit (and no "new" software
ever gets installed so as long as you view PDFs in a sandbox, you're
pretty safe even WITHOUT AV products running)

[I prove this, to myself, by periodically imagine each system -- including
this one -- and running a current AV scan on the current and PREVIOUS
images; thinking even if a virus escaped detection "in the wild" for 6
months, it would eventually show up on the CURRENT scan of the "previous"
image. So far, no hits.]

We have a separate laptop that is ONLY used for ecommerce (with only
a few sites bookmarked, no email, no "general" browsing). This is
slightly tedious as some sites will want to email a code -- which
we can't receive on the laptop (no MUA). But, 5 steps away and
this machine can cough up the pertinent email.

We have a short stack of laptops from years when SWMBO wanted to use TT
for her taxes (no, we don't want ANY of that data to reside on a routed
machine). Each time TT decided they "needed" the latest and greatest OS,
I dragged out a "new" laptop JUST for the current version of TT.

I've finally convinced her to let me do her taxes as it is less hassle
(no, we don't need to answer hundreds of questions for TT to decide
which deductions we can take; we KNOW them).

[I will image the laptops, this winter, and build VMs of eaach in case
she needs to consult those older versions of TT. Then, recycle the
laptops (part of an ongoing effort to cut down on the amount of kit, here)]

> Same as for older software for many users. Office 98 will do for most home
> users.

Drivers are a big factor for "normal" users. I have no desire my
dirt-cheap-to-operate laserjets just because MS wants a fresh
injection of revenue. I suspect they will become increasingly desperate
as phones replace the laptops that replaced the desktops.

> Then win 10 'broke' some
> of my older programs so I had to buy newer versions of them.

I have been perpetually assured that my old tools will continue to
work on some new MS OS. Nope. You always "lose" something.
So, there's a lot of effort required to reinstall (and relicense!)
all that software -- only to discover which no longer work -- and
this is offset by what OS-related gains, exactly?

The monetary cost of application updates is usually not an issue.
But, the time required to install, the risk that something won't
work "properly", AND the learning curve as they inevitably dick
with things that already worked (why?) is just not worth the
cost of installing them.

E.g., I use FrameMaker from 2015 -- despite having purchased more
current upgrades (where it is better "integrated" with other tools;
what does that "integration" buy me??)

[Actually, 2015-2016 is probably the vintage for most of my tools,
with the exception of compilers and the like (that don't run under
Windows). Has photo image processing changed in any earth-shattering
ways that would REQUIRE me to update those tools to something more
recent? Ditto DTP? Schematic capture? CAD? Video editing?
Music composition/Sound processing/DAWs?]

> So now to
> do things I have to have old laptops and desk tops with win 98, xt and
> win 10 on them. I just bought a used win 11 computer off ebay as an
> older computer quit on me and I feel that in a year or two win 10 will
> not run TT.

You can set up VMs and run them under some common machine. I have an
archive of VMDKs and VDIs that I can access from my ESXi server
(or from VMware/VirtuaBox). It's not quite as fast as running on
real hardware but the advantage of being able to run the code
at all makes allowances for that.

Pick the OS that most of your performance-related apps support
(or, the hardware that you are most happy with) and deal with the
others as "exceptions".

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 14:09:46 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 20:23:28 +0100, Martin Brown
><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 11/10/2023 22:13, john larkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 02:24:40 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> john larkin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I just "upgraded" from Windows 7 to 11. The new PC is a lot faster
>>>>> running Spice.
>>>>>
>>>>> But the File Explorer is a horror. When I drag/drop a file, the cursor
>>>>> becomes a giant ugly icon. When I copy a file where a copy already
>>>>> exists, I have to go through a secondary dialog to compare file
>>>>> attributes.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I right-click on a file, simple things like delete and rename are a
>>>>> secondary operation!
>>>>
>>>> reg.exe add "HKCU\Software\Classes\CLSID\{86ca1aa0-34aa-4e8b-a509-50c905bae2a2}\InprocServer32" /f /ve
>>>>
>>>> restores the familiar <right click> popup menu, for the current user.
>>>> The popup menu adjustment and additional alterations are available at:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/worst-windows-11-features-fix-them>
>>>>
>>>> Danke,
>>>
>>> The registry patch worked!
>>>
>>> 1e6 thanks.
>>
>>It is a bit sad that you have to attack the registry with a flint axe to
>>make Win11 more comfortable to use though. Some of their "improvements"
>>make things much harder to do and for no good reason.
>
>Clearly some of the old ui stuff is still there. They just make them
>hard to enable.
>
>
>>
>>My pet hate was the ribbon interface on Office 2007 it drove experienced
>>users nuts! Give me that annoying "clippy" thing back any day!
>
>I can't get W11 to associate Jpegs with Irfanview. Microsoft insists
>that I use their ugly viewer.
>
>I can drag/drop a jpeg onto the Irfanview icon, now that I actually
>have an Irfanview icon.
>
>But not from a pic on a phone.
>
>All too weird.

I just took some whiteboard pics with my phone. The Win11 jpeg viewer
says they are corrupt and won't open them. Irfanview works fine.

If I rename an icon on my desktop, it jumps around the screen.

Don't those idiots at Microsoft use their own OS? Masybe not!

On 10/12/2023 1:43 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
> I don't find it that bad actually and the support for performance core
> scheduling is much better than in Win7. I got a Win11 machine because it was
> blisteringly fast and I really needed the speed up.

How much did you have "invested" in older apps and drivers?

> I have a Win8.x (bad OS version think Picasso on a bad acid trip) portable for
> testing on that OS (bought for that very purpose). And I managed to skip Win10
> entirely.

I have VMs of all the Windows releases (make a copy of the VM, install
whatever is needed, save as new VM). And laptops with *a* version of
each major Windows release (which may not have the most recent updates
available for their apps/OS/drivers).

They rarely see any use.

[I recall having to run an instance of SBS to upgrade some firmware in some
rescued kit -- why the upgrade needed that as a host OS is beyond me!]

> Throughout my working life I have only ever upgraded when a new machine would
> be 3x faster at handling the workload than its predecessor. That used to be
> roughly every 3 years for decades.

I no longer BUY new hardware; there is just too much of it in the
3-yr-old range available for free. I long ago realized that *I* was
the critical path in any such operations and, as there are always
other things that can benefit from my attention, if it takes some
time to run a particular app (e.g., make world), then I just swivel
to a different workstation *or* another application while it grinds
along.

My current workstations are probably a decade old (3+GHz 12 core Xeons)
and the idea of replacing them sends shudders down my spine -- even for
FREE hardware! Reinstalling (and relicensing) applications is just
too much of a productivity hit.

[And, having identical machines -- and identical spares -- is a great
boost to availability]

> Now it is more like once a decade if that! My normal office machine is just
> over a decade old hardware now and apart from replacing the spinning rust with
> an SSD and adding more ram when prices fell has been more than adequate for all
> but the most demanding tasks.

I rescue RAM to flesh out each machine as machines of the same
vintage of my workstations becomes more readily available.
At 144GB/workstation, the disk falls out of the equation (load
app and then let the disk spin down). No "surprises" from
SSDs that have odd bugs that manifest at inopportune times!

[Single apps work quite well in such a memory pool -- with the
exception of some complex SfM renderings that eventually
need to swap due to teh number of points involved]

>>> win 10 was Turbo Tax needed it. Now just what real feature of TT would
>>> be needed that it takes win 10 ? Same as for older software for many
>>> users. Office 98 will do for most home users. Then win 10 'broke' some
>
> Office 97 was a fairly good vintage, the next decent one after that was
> 2002/2003. Then there was the abortion of 2007 which out of the box had so many
> bugs it was unusable. Launched about the same time as Vista Office 2007 never
> took all the flak that it deserved and Vista did.

SWMBO runs O2K on her machine. She had developed a comprehensive set of
relational databases under MSAccess (for $WORK) to track capital
expenditures at the local hospital. She has repurposed these to track
our expenses, here (want to know when we bought the new garage door? or,
how much we spent at Costco, by year -- to determine the value of
their "executive" membership?)

Apparently, O2K3 changed the way MSAccess worked (web based?) so
she refuses to let me upgrade that -- or move to other RDBMSs.

>>> of my older programs so I had to buy newer versions of them. So now to
>>> do things I have to have old laptops and desk tops with win 98, xt and
>>> win 10 on them. I just bought a used win 11 computer off ebay as an
>>> older computer quit on me and I feel that in a year or two win 10 will
>>> not run TT.
>
> The pro version of the OS will let you run a convincing enough virtual machine
> for most of XP onwards to be satisfied with their lot. The only ting you can't
> do is run legacy code in the x64 environment (for obvious reasons). Right
> click, Properties, Compatibility usually works.
>
> The things that don't work tend to be doing naughty things in code.

There are also changes to the Windows API (esp video drivers) that
make older software built on those APIs incompatible with newer
implementations.

E.g., I used to love AfterDark as a screen saver but it isn't
really compatible with newer APIs (and not worth my time to
design a wedge)

> There is still plenty of big scientific kit (20 year lifetime) running on XP
> era PCs some of them with bespoke hardware that doesn't get on with modern
> faster CPUs so certain machines have higher than book value.
> (as do certain memory upgrades used in particular kit)

A colleague eagerly rescues old Sun iron as his employer's enterprise
runs on it, exclusively. Cheaper to find (inexpensive) old hardware
than to incur the cost of reimplementing all of their business
software to run on some other hardware/software... that will likely
want to be revised every few years.

I rely on older laptops to run some of my hardware emulators (the
software for which will likely never be upgraded and the hardware
*ports* required now deemed obsolescent). Making floppies for
legacy kit isn't possible on any of my Windows PCs; use a laptop
OR dual boot one of my servers to run a compatible windows version
for just that task.

> Manufacturers almost never release drivers for such old equipment when new OS's
> are released so the poor users are stuck in a time warp.
>
> It annoys the hell out of corporate IT because the laboratory network
> containing a mix of modern kit and antiques has to be very carefully firewalled
> from the rest of the enterprise. Old and unsupported OS's are very vulnerable
> if connected to the internet.

Most businesses give control of ALL the kit to IT. So, you need
lots of leverage to be able to justify clinging to something older.
And, IT likely canplay the trump card of isolating your internet
from the rest of the corporation. (and, as most higher ups
are ignorant of the actual issues involved, each time "you" want
something that requires access that network, IT will have the ear of
management in driving FUD: "See? This is why we SHOULDN'T have
let them install that old software!"

On 10/12/2023 4:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> Then win 10 'broke' some
>> of my older programs so I had to buy newer versions of them.
>
> I have been perpetually assured that my old tools will continue to
> work on some new MS OS.  Nope.  You always "lose" something.
> So, there's a lot of effort required to reinstall (and relicense!)
> all that software -- only to discover which no longer work -- and
> this is offset by what OS-related gains, exactly?
>
> The monetary cost of application updates is usually not an issue.
> But, the time required to install, the risk that something won't
> work "properly", AND the learning curve as they inevitably dick
> with things that already worked (why?) is just not worth the
> cost of installing them.

Similarly, but a slightly different issue:

I designed and laid out a board for a client in OrCAD 7 many
years ago. As is the case of all of my projects, I saved an
image of my development system at the time of delivery.

Some time later, got a frantic call from the client; they
wanted to make some changes to the design (and layout)
but had upgraded ("at a good price!") to OrCAD 9.

And, it couldn't read the old 7 files!

Hoping to exploit my "lifetime free bug fixes" guarantee,
they were hoping I could (would?) make the changes for them
(they didn't realize that I had a saved image; just wanted
to guilt me into solving THEIR problem).

As it clearly wasn't within the scope of a free bug fix,
I told them I was under no obligation to do so. They
agreed, grudgingly. For an outrageous amount of money,
I made the changes (pausing my current project) and
made it very clear that THEY needed to figure out how
THEY were going to support THEIR product, going forward
(i.e., this was a one-time favor -- despite the outrageous
price!)

Yet another example of businesses with poor procedures
and processes in place. (imagine how much more productive
they could be with such improvements??)

On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 10:10:04 PM UTC+1, john larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 20:23:28 +0100, Martin Brown
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On 11/10/2023 22:13, john larkin wrote:
> >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 02:24:40 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> john larkin wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I just "upgraded" from Windows 7 to 11. The new PC is a lot faster
> >>>> running Spice.
> >>>>
> >>>> But the File Explorer is a horror. When I drag/drop a file, the cursor
> >>>> becomes a giant ugly icon. When I copy a file where a copy already
> >>>> exists, I have to go through a secondary dialog to compare file
> >>>> attributes.
> >>>>
> >>>> If I right-click on a file, simple things like delete and rename are a
> >>>> secondary operation!
> >>>
> >>> reg.exe add "HKCU\Software\Classes\CLSID\{86ca1aa0-34aa-4e8b-a509-50c905bae2a2}\InprocServer32" /f /ve
> >>>
> >>> restores the familiar <right click> popup menu, for the current user.
> >>> The popup menu adjustment and additional alterations are available at:
> >>>
> >>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/worst-windows-11-features-fix-them>
> >>>
> >>> Danke,
> >>
> >> The registry patch worked!
> >>
> >> 1e6 thanks.
> >
> >It is a bit sad that you have to attack the registry with a flint axe to
> >make Win11 more comfortable to use though. Some of their "improvements"
> >make things much harder to do and for no good reason.
> Clearly some of the old ui stuff is still there. They just make them
> hard to enable.
> >
> >My pet hate was the ribbon interface on Office 2007 it drove experienced
> >users nuts! Give me that annoying "clippy" thing back any day!
> I can't get W11 to associate Jpegs with Irfanview. Microsoft insists
> that I use their ugly viewer.
>
> I can drag/drop a jpeg onto the Irfanview icon, now that I actually
> have an Irfanview icon.
>
> But not from a pic on a phone.
>
> All too weird.

Search google and download FileTypesMan or Types. They will allow you to edit file type associations (and a few other things).

On 12/10/2023 22:09, john larkin wrote:

> I can't get W11 to associate Jpegs with Irfanview. Microsoft insists
> that I use their ugly viewer.

Didn't Irfanview offer you the option to make it the default viewer for
various file types as it installed?

If anything Win11 is more configurable than any previous version it is
just that they have hidden the interface more thoroughly!

> I can drag/drop a jpeg onto the Irfanview icon, now that I actually
> have an Irfanview icon.
>
> But not from a pic on a phone.

You want settings apps>default apps

Change windows naff viewer to the one you prefer.
Likewise for any other file types you want.
I use VLC instead of Meeja viewer

--
Martin Brown