It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

I've encountered ND9's and M8's/M12's on some kit but
primarily industrial applications.

Any other alternatives that are in "widespread" use
(i.e., an application domain with which I might have to
interact so "plan ahead")?

For daughtercard connections, I imagine anything will do
(assuming careful layout).

On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
> It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
> acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

If you're talking about "standard" 10/100/1000BASE-T over copper, yep.

But then there's always fiber / DAC / WiFi as well, if you choose to use
them as L1 interconnection media.

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On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 19:44:40 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
>acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.
>
>I've encountered ND9's and M8's/M12's on some kit but
>primarily industrial applications.
>
>Any other alternatives that are in "widespread" use
>(i.e., an application domain with which I might have to
>interact so "plan ahead")?
>
>For daughtercard connections, I imagine anything will do
>(assuming careful layout).

Pity that the "universal" bus isn't ethernet using the USBC connector.

On 10/15/2023 7:54 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
>> It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
>> acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.
>
> If you're talking about "standard" 10/100/1000BASE-T over copper, yep.

Yes. I see a few "oddball" alternatives (MD8 & 12 and ND9) but only in
special instances... nothing that seems to approach a new sort of
"standard".

I'm looking to see if there are differential stuffing options that
might make sense for "spare" network interfaces on boards with an
eye towards "other" interconnects.

E.g., if you have a USB interface, you have to make a decision as
to which USB connector best fits your targeted applications.
For the most part, they are interchangeable.

Likewise, for legacy 422/232/423/485/etc. connections.

For ethernet connections, there only seem to be two in widespread
use: 8P8Cs and punchdown blocks.

(There are some MII connectors but only for external PHYs)

> But then there's always fiber / DAC / WiFi as well, if you choose to use
> them as L1 interconnection media.
>
>

On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/15/2023 7:54 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
>>> It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
>>> acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.
>>
>> If you're talking about "standard" 10/100/1000BASE-T over copper, yep.
> [...]
> I'm looking to see if there are differential stuffing options that
> might make sense for "spare" network interfaces on boards with an
> eye towards "other" interconnects.

Not for 802.3-compliant ethernet networking there isn't.

> E.g., if you have a USB interface, you have to make a decision as
> to which USB connector best fits your targeted applications.
> For the most part, they are interchangeable.

USB was designed that way though, unlike 802.3 networks over copper.

>
> For ethernet connections, there only seem to be two in widespread
> use: 8P8Cs and punchdown blocks.

If you're limiting yourself to 10/100/1000BASE-T ethernet, since the
physical medium is part of the spec. As I mentioned, there's a handful
of other options if you really want to use them.

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On 10/15/2023 2:49 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/15/2023 7:54 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
>>>> It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
>>>> acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.
>>>
>>> If you're talking about "standard" 10/100/1000BASE-T over copper, yep.
>> [...]
>> I'm looking to see if there are differential stuffing options that
>> might make sense for "spare" network interfaces on boards with an
>> eye towards "other" interconnects.
>
> Not for 802.3-compliant ethernet networking there isn't.

ND-9s are now finding a place in industrial networking -- at
up to CAT6 and PoE++ applications.

While I don't need that speed or power level, PHYSICAL compatibility
(for the cost of an additional set of pads) has some value. Esp if
I can just interface to such a device without having to redesign
a board and/or packaging.

>> E.g., if you have a USB interface, you have to make a decision as
>> to which USB connector best fits your targeted applications.
>> For the most part, they are interchangeable.
>
> USB was designed that way though, unlike 802.3 networks over copper.

People (industries) have a habit of revising connectors to accommodate
their own particular needs -- without wanting to reinvent an entire
standard.

Cisco routed power on "unused" pins of CAT5 cables for THEIR version
of PoE. Big enough market and name and it becomes a /de facto/
standard.

"RS232" is available on all sorts of connectors -- with varying degrees
of compliance to The Standard (*pick* a standard). 10P10C, 8P8C, TRS,
TRRS, DB9, DB25, RJ11, etc.

A Sun SCSI cable is more like a fire hose. Apple uses a *square*
connector. You can even find DB25's as "accepted terminations".

Video cables come in all different flavors as befitting the
mechanical constraints of one or both ends of the cable (I
have some that are VHDCI -- but a "regular" VGA cable thereafter).

The trick is to anticipate how connector use may evolve.

>> For ethernet connections, there only seem to be two in widespread
>> use: 8P8Cs and punchdown blocks.
>
> If you're limiting yourself to 10/100/1000BASE-T ethernet, since the
> physical medium is part of the spec. As I mentioned, there's a handful
> of other options if you really want to use them.

On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
> It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
> acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.
>
> I've encountered ND9's and M8's/M12's on some kit but
> primarily industrial applications.
>
> Any other alternatives that are in "widespread" use
> (i.e., an application domain with which I might have to
> interact so "plan ahead")?
>
> For daughtercard connections, I imagine anything will do
> (assuming careful layout).
>

Search google images "IEC 61076-3-124".

Arie

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 4:08:48 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/15/2023 2:49 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> > On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 10/15/2023 7:54 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> >>> On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
> >>>> It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
> >>>> acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.
> >>>
> >>> If you're talking about "standard" 10/100/1000BASE-T over copper, yep..
> >> [...]
> >> I'm looking to see if there are differential stuffing options that
> >> might make sense for "spare" network interfaces on boards with an
> >> eye towards "other" interconnects.

> The trick is to anticipate how connector use may evolve.

> >> For ethernet connections, there only seem to be two in widespread
> >> use: 8P8Cs and punchdown blocks.

> > If you're limiting yourself to 10/100/1000BASE-T ethernet, since the
> > physical medium is part of the spec. As I mentioned, there's a handful
> > of other options if you really want to use them.

No mention yet of SFP? That'll open up lots of possibilities, optical and wired (fiber channel)
and it's likely flexible enough to suit the whatever-comes-next.

On 10/16/2023 7:50 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
> On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
>> It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
>> acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.
>>
>> I've encountered ND9's and M8's/M12's on some kit but
>> primarily industrial applications.
>>
>> Any other alternatives that are in "widespread" use
>> (i.e., an application domain with which I might have to
>> interact so "plan ahead")?
>>
>> For daughtercard connections, I imagine anything will do
>> (assuming careful layout).
>
> Search google images "IEC 61076-3-124".

Yes, but, as I said above (wrt the ND9, M8/12) they only
seem to see use in industrial applications (which is the
market my colleague -- who suggested them to me -- serves).

I was wondering (worrying?) that there may be some
set of more ubiquitous kit that used an alternative
(in much the same way that we see lots of "RS232"
alternatives addressing portions of markets)

It's interesting that the flimsy connectors in widespread use
haven't found a more robust replacement, esp as more and more
"casual" users have (bad?) experiences with them!

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/16/2023 7:50 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
> > On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
> >> It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
> >> acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

> It's interesting that the flimsy connectors in widespread use
> haven't found a more robust replacement, esp as more and more
> "casual" users have (bad?) experiences with them!

As a semi-casual user, I've had bad experiences, then got a bag of replacement
connectors and a crimp tool... that fixed all my problems. A different connector
would just be... a new bunch of problems.

On 10/18/2023 12:17 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/16/2023 7:50 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
>>> On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
>>>> It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
>>>> acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.
>
>> It's interesting that the flimsy connectors in widespread use
>> haven't found a more robust replacement, esp as more and more
>> "casual" users have (bad?) experiences with them!
>
> As a semi-casual user, I've had bad experiences, then got a bag of replacement
> connectors and a crimp tool... that fixed all my problems. A different connector
> would just be... a new bunch of problems.

Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.

One can buy "hooded" (and equivalent) connector shells.
But, often they are poorly made (even made of HARD plastic
so you can't deform them to release the latch).

As most casual users don't have a box of spare cables on hand
(of the appropriate length), a broken connector means a trip to
the store to be operational, again.

On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/18/2023 12:17 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 10/16/2023 7:50 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
>>>> On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
>>>>> acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.
>>
>>> It's interesting that the flimsy connectors in widespread use
>>> haven't found a more robust replacement, esp as more and more
>>> "casual" users have (bad?) experiences with them!
>>
>> As a semi-casual user, I've had bad experiences, then got a bag of replacement
>> connectors and a crimp tool... that fixed all my problems. A different connector
>> would just be... a new bunch of problems.
>
> Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.

So then they buy a new one, or call their friend / relative who can fix
it for them.

--
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|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On 10/18/2023 3:13 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/18/2023 12:17 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 10/16/2023 7:50 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
>>>>>> acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.
>>>
>>>> It's interesting that the flimsy connectors in widespread use
>>>> haven't found a more robust replacement, esp as more and more
>>>> "casual" users have (bad?) experiences with them!
>>>
>>> As a semi-casual user, I've had bad experiences, then got a bag of replacement
>>> connectors and a crimp tool... that fixed all my problems. A different connector
>>> would just be... a new bunch of problems.
>>
>> Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.
>
> So then they buy a new one, or call their friend / relative who can fix
> it for them.

Which is how my supply of spares has been exhausted.

Note that no one ever calls looking for a spare printer cable,
audio cable, USB cable, etc. as they don't fail like network
cables do.

On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/18/2023 3:13 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.
>>
>> So then they buy a new one, or call their friend / relative who can fix
>> it for them.
>
> Which is how my supply of spares has been exhausted.
>
> Note that no one ever calls looking for a spare printer cable,
> audio cable, USB cable, etc. as they don't fail like network
> cables do.

Or people just have a glut of USB cables these days, because
/everything/ comes with it's new (USB) charger & charging cable ... so,
drawer full already.

I've still got the same network cables as I used in college, albeit cut
in half because I didn't need to run 50 foot of cable around the
perimeter of the (dorm) room :)

--
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|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On 10/18/2023 5:45 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/18/2023 3:13 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>> Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.
>>>
>>> So then they buy a new one, or call their friend / relative who can fix
>>> it for them.
>>
>> Which is how my supply of spares has been exhausted.
>>
>> Note that no one ever calls looking for a spare printer cable,
>> audio cable, USB cable, etc. as they don't fail like network
>> cables do.
>
> Or people just have a glut of USB cables these days, because
> /everything/ comes with it's new (USB) charger & charging cable ... so,
> drawer full already.

And every THING needs the cable that came with it!
How often do you buy something and get a "spare cable"
in the package?

> I've still got the same network cables as I used in college, albeit cut
> in half because I didn't need to run 50 foot of cable around the
> perimeter of the (dorm) room :)

Orange hose when I was in college...

On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Oct 2023 12:17:46 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
<whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
<bbee0cf8-7548-4de4-99d0-f37e9ebabc7cn@googlegroups.com>:

>On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/16/2023 7:50 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
>> > On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
>> >> It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
>> >> acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.
>
>> It's interesting that the flimsy connectors in widespread use
>> haven't found a more robust replacement, esp as more and more
>> "casual" users have (bad?) experiences with them!
>
>As a semi-casual user, I've had bad experiences, then got a bag of replacem=
>ent
>connectors and a crimp tool... that fixed all my problems. A different co=
>nnector
>would just be... a new bunch of problems.

Same here, replaced 2 RJ45 connectors last few days, always takes time to get the colors aligned...
I also modified a RJ45 PCB female one for POE, it had a few hundred Ohm resistor between the power lines....
Was easy to take apart, cut the tracks to the resistors, make an extra hole and solder 2 power wires.

On 2023-10-19, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/18/2023 5:45 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 10/18/2023 3:13 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>> On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.
>>>>
>>>> So then they buy a new one, or call their friend / relative who can fix
>>>> it for them.
>>>
>>> Which is how my supply of spares has been exhausted.
>>>
>>> Note that no one ever calls looking for a spare printer cable,
>>> audio cable, USB cable, etc. as they don't fail like network
>>> cables do.
>>
>> Or people just have a glut of USB cables these days, because
>> /everything/ comes with it's new (USB) charger & charging cable ... so,
>> drawer full already.
>
> And every THING needs the cable that came with it!
> How often do you buy something and get a "spare cable"
> in the package?

I don't need my new phone's USB-C charger (and corresponding cable), the
old one still works fine (so, yay, spare). Likewise, my wireless game
controllers that charge over mini- or micro-B -- all of them came with a
USB cable, but they don't all need to charge simultaneously. Or the
printer, where I replaced an old one (so already had the right USB A/B
printer cable -- TBH, I was surprised to find a cable in the box).

--
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|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On 10/19/2023 3:00 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-10-19, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/18/2023 5:45 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 10/18/2023 3:13 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.
>>>>>
>>>>> So then they buy a new one, or call their friend / relative who can fix
>>>>> it for them.
>>>>
>>>> Which is how my supply of spares has been exhausted.
>>>>
>>>> Note that no one ever calls looking for a spare printer cable,
>>>> audio cable, USB cable, etc. as they don't fail like network
>>>> cables do.
>>>
>>> Or people just have a glut of USB cables these days, because
>>> /everything/ comes with it's new (USB) charger & charging cable ... so,
>>> drawer full already.
>>
>> And every THING needs the cable that came with it!
>> How often do you buy something and get a "spare cable"
>> in the package?
>
> I don't need my new phone's USB-C charger (and corresponding cable), the
> old one still works fine (so, yay, spare). Likewise, my wireless game
> controllers that charge over mini- or micro-B -- all of them came with a
> USB cable, but they don't all need to charge simultaneously. Or the
> printer, where I replaced an old one (so already had the right USB A/B
> printer cable -- TBH, I was surprised to find a cable in the box).

I have each chargeable USB device with its own cable so they can all
sit on chargers until needed (phones, BT speakers, tablets, headphones,
earpieces, eReaders, etc.). I've found labeling the cables is the
easiest way for me to keep track of when one "goes missing".

Three of my scanners have a "USB option" (in addition to being network
or SCSI accessible) so each is cabled to a host -- for the settings that
aren't adjustable over the network.

Each external (USB) disk drive is cabled to a host so all I have
to do is apply power to access its contents. (I've had to purchase
several miniUSB cables as some of the drives have misplaced theirs).
I have SATA docks on several machines, each connected to a nearby host.
Each UPS is tethered to its corresponding host along with the network.

My monitors are (USB) cabled to their hosts to make use of the
hubs/card readers embedded in them.

I have "extension" cables (MaleA to FemaleA) on any devices where the
"real" connector is hard to access (e.g., the rear USB connections on
kit that's not located *on* my workbench which likely has OTHER kit
piled atop it making moving it -- to access the rear panel -- difficult).

I don't like having to "dig out" cables (or any other kit, for that
matter -- external disks, mice, monitors, digitizers, motion controllers,
etc.) so leave them "stored" where they will actually be used.
(How does storing them save any space or make their use any easier?)

My "spare cables" are LONG video cables, LONG network cables, LONG
SCSI cables, LONG "coax" cables and LONG serial/parallel cables. In
a pinch, one will suffice -- until I can make arrangements to get others.
It also discourages "borrowers" as no one likes to have a *pile* of wire
lying around!

SHORT cables leave less slack around here so THEY see use instead of
longer ones (e.g., there's ~700 ft of CAT5e in my tiny little office...
in ~60 modest length pieces!)

[I currently need 8 2m network cables so I'll go chase them down in
the next week or so]