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tech / sci.electronics.design / SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES

SubjectAuthor
* SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLESFred Bloggs
+* Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLESJohn Larkin
|+- Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLESFred Bloggs
|+- Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLESJeroen Belleman
|`* Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLESFred Bloggs
| `* Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLESJohn Larkin
|  `- Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLESFred Bloggs
`* Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLESJohn Larkin
 `- Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLESFred Bloggs

1
SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES

<2311723f-67b3-4b46-b9d6-dead3cfb08cfn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
From: bloggs.f...@gmail.com (Fred Bloggs)
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 by: Fred Bloggs - Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:23 UTC

Main advantage is a major reduction in physical size and carbon footprint of components. Efficiency is better too, but not radically so.

DOE page with breakdown of technology:

SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES

https://netl.doe.gov/node/7548

Mass science media overview quick read:

A Tiny Supercritical Carbon Dioxide Turbine Can Power 10,000 Homes

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/10/30/a-tiny-supercritical-carbon-dioxide-turbine-can-power-10000-homes/

Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES

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From: jl...@997PotHill.com (John Larkin)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:54:34 -0700
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 by: John Larkin - Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:54 UTC

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:23:49 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>Main advantage is a major reduction in physical size and carbon footprint of components. Efficiency is better too, but not radically so.
>
>DOE page with breakdown of technology:
>
>SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
>
>https://netl.doe.gov/node/7548
>
>Mass science media overview quick read:
>
>A Tiny Supercritical Carbon Dioxide Turbine Can Power 10,000 Homes
>
>https://cleantechnica.com/2023/10/30/a-tiny-supercritical-carbon-dioxide-turbine-can-power-10000-homes/

There's no shortage of working fluids for driving turbines. For a
while, mercury vapor was the next big thing.

Why does the article include a political rant?

Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES

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From: jl...@997PotHill.com (John Larkin)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:58:19 -0700
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 by: John Larkin - Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:58 UTC

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:23:49 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>Main advantage is a major reduction in physical size and carbon footprint of components. Efficiency is better too, but not radically so.
>
>DOE page with breakdown of technology:
>
>SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
>
>https://netl.doe.gov/node/7548
>
>Mass science media overview quick read:
>
>A Tiny Supercritical Carbon Dioxide Turbine Can Power 10,000 Homes
>
>https://cleantechnica.com/2023/10/30/a-tiny-supercritical-carbon-dioxide-turbine-can-power-10000-homes/

That's a hilarious web site.

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/10/31/solar-cannonball-continues-at-a-record-snails-pace/

Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES

<8154d469-949d-42e4-a0de-21badfc4ead8n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
From: bloggs.f...@gmail.com (Fred Bloggs)
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 by: Fred Bloggs - Tue, 31 Oct 2023 16:57 UTC

On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 10:55:06 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:23:49 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Main advantage is a major reduction in physical size and carbon footprint of components. Efficiency is better too, but not radically so.
> >
> >DOE page with breakdown of technology:
> >
> >SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
> >
> >https://netl.doe.gov/node/7548
> >
> >Mass science media overview quick read:
> >
> >A Tiny Supercritical Carbon Dioxide Turbine Can Power 10,000 Homes
> >
> >https://cleantechnica.com/2023/10/30/a-tiny-supercritical-carbon-dioxide-turbine-can-power-10000-homes/
> There's no shortage of working fluids for driving turbines. For a
> while, mercury vapor was the next big thing.
>
> Why does the article include a political rant?

Politics is part of their coverage.

Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES

<b8079153-cb8f-4484-ab67-3ef4617295een@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
From: bloggs.f...@gmail.com (Fred Bloggs)
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 by: Fred Bloggs - Tue, 31 Oct 2023 17:00 UTC

On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 10:58:53 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:23:49 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Main advantage is a major reduction in physical size and carbon footprint of components. Efficiency is better too, but not radically so.
> >
> >DOE page with breakdown of technology:
> >
> >SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
> >
> >https://netl.doe.gov/node/7548
> >
> >Mass science media overview quick read:
> >
> >A Tiny Supercritical Carbon Dioxide Turbine Can Power 10,000 Homes
> >
> >https://cleantechnica.com/2023/10/30/a-tiny-supercritical-carbon-dioxide-turbine-can-power-10000-homes/
> That's a hilarious web site.
>
> https://cleantechnica.com/2023/10/31/solar-cannonball-continues-at-a-record-snails-pace/

He should have just simulated it. There are real time irradiation readings available:

https://solcast.com/solar-radiation-map/north-america/2023-10-18

Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES

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 by: Jeroen Belleman - Tue, 31 Oct 2023 18:26 UTC

On 10/31/23 15:54, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:23:49 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Main advantage is a major reduction in physical size and carbon footprint of components. Efficiency is better too, but not radically so.
>>
>> DOE page with breakdown of technology:
>>
>> SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
>>
>> https://netl.doe.gov/node/7548
>>
>> Mass science media overview quick read:
>>
>> A Tiny Supercritical Carbon Dioxide Turbine Can Power 10,000 Homes
>>
>> https://cleantechnica.com/2023/10/30/a-tiny-supercritical-carbon-dioxide-turbine-can-power-10000-homes/
>
>
> There's no shortage of working fluids for driving turbines. For a
> while, mercury vapor was the next big thing.
>
> Why does the article include a political rant?
>

Better CO2 than mercury. A mercury leak would be a nightmare.

That said, I don't know why CO2 would be so much better than
steam. The article doesn't really say why, just that it is.
Given that CO2 is cheap and plentiful, I have trouble believing
that it hasn't been tried before. If it's so good, why did
nobody use it until now? A 10% gain in efficiency and a factor
of ten in size is a big deal! Electricity generating companies
are no fools. If it's so much better, why weren't they doing it?

Jeroen Belleman

Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES

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Subject: Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
From: bloggs.f...@gmail.com (Fred Bloggs)
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 by: Fred Bloggs - Tue, 31 Oct 2023 19:09 UTC

On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 10:55:06 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:23:49 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Main advantage is a major reduction in physical size and carbon footprint of components. Efficiency is better too, but not radically so.
> >
> >DOE page with breakdown of technology:
> >
> >SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
> >
> >https://netl.doe.gov/node/7548
> >
> >Mass science media overview quick read:
> >
> >A Tiny Supercritical Carbon Dioxide Turbine Can Power 10,000 Homes
> >
> >https://cleantechnica.com/2023/10/30/a-tiny-supercritical-carbon-dioxide-turbine-can-power-10000-homes/
> There's no shortage of working fluids for driving turbines. For a
> while, mercury vapor was the next big thing.
>
> Why does the article include a political rant?

More background on sCO2:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercritical_fluid

You can see CO2 is one of the easier gases to work with from Table 1.

Interesting application to refrigeration generally, heat pumps specifically:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EcoCute

Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES

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From: jl...@997PotHill.com (John Larkin)
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Subject: Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 13:29:55 -0700
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 by: John Larkin - Tue, 31 Oct 2023 20:29 UTC

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 12:09:17 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 10:55:06?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:23:49 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Main advantage is a major reduction in physical size and carbon footprint of components. Efficiency is better too, but not radically so.
>> >
>> >DOE page with breakdown of technology:
>> >
>> >SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
>> >
>> >https://netl.doe.gov/node/7548
>> >
>> >Mass science media overview quick read:
>> >
>> >A Tiny Supercritical Carbon Dioxide Turbine Can Power 10,000 Homes
>> >
>> >https://cleantechnica.com/2023/10/30/a-tiny-supercritical-carbon-dioxide-turbine-can-power-10000-homes/
>> There's no shortage of working fluids for driving turbines. For a
>> while, mercury vapor was the next big thing.
>>
>> Why does the article include a political rant?
>
>More background on sCO2:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercritical_fluid
>
>You can see CO2 is one of the easier gases to work with from Table 1.
>
>Interesting application to refrigeration generally, heat pumps specifically:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EcoCute

10 Mpa is about 1500 PSI. Freon systems run around 200.

Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES

<e628d3d7-001f-4138-bfbf-649d1fafb7cen@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=131462&group=sci.electronics.design#131462

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Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 16:49:34 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
From: bloggs.f...@gmail.com (Fred Bloggs)
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 by: Fred Bloggs - Tue, 31 Oct 2023 23:49 UTC

On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 4:30:28 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 12:09:17 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 10:55:06?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:23:49 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Main advantage is a major reduction in physical size and carbon footprint of components. Efficiency is better too, but not radically so.
> >> >
> >> >DOE page with breakdown of technology:
> >> >
> >> >SUPERCRITICAL CO2 POWER CYCLES
> >> >
> >> >https://netl.doe.gov/node/7548
> >> >
> >> >Mass science media overview quick read:
> >> >
> >> >A Tiny Supercritical Carbon Dioxide Turbine Can Power 10,000 Homes
> >> >
> >> >https://cleantechnica.com/2023/10/30/a-tiny-supercritical-carbon-dioxide-turbine-can-power-10000-homes/
> >> There's no shortage of working fluids for driving turbines. For a
> >> while, mercury vapor was the next big thing.
> >>
> >> Why does the article include a political rant?
> >
> >More background on sCO2:
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercritical_fluid
> >
> >You can see CO2 is one of the easier gases to work with from Table 1.
> >
> >Interesting application to refrigeration generally, heat pumps specifically:
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EcoCute
> 10 Mpa is about 1500 PSI. Freon systems run around 200.

It's 7.38 MPa which is a little over 1000 psi. Standard test pressures for conventional a/c refrigerant systems is 500 psi, so sCO2 is in the neighborhood. I don't like the sound of calling this a 'solvent'.

Looks like the oil dissolved in the sCO2 ends up interfering with heat transfer, and that obviously should be minimized.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0140700712000734

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