A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s

Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?

Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
fricatives do.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
> trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
> stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s
>
> Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?
>
> Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
> Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
> fricatives do.

If there aren't two phonemes, there's no neutralization.

If you can't figure out when she uses the one and when the other,
it's "free variation."

However, singing is a lousy source of phonetic/phonemic information.

Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
>> trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
>> stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s
>>
>> Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?
>>
>> Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
>> Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
>> fricatives do.
>
>If there aren't two phonemes, there's no neutralization.
>
>If you can't figure out when she uses the one and when the other,
>it's "free variation."

Yes and yes.

>However, singing is a lousy source of phonetic/phonemic information.

Untrue, also in this case. A very good and clear source.

Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
>> trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
>> stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s
>>
>> Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?
>>
>> Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
>> Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
>> fricatives do.
>
>If there aren't two phonemes, there's no neutralization.
>
>If you can't figure out when she uses the one and when the other,
>it's "free variation."

There more to it, not only is the 'when' indeterminable, much of the
what is, too.

>However, singing is a lousy source of phonetic/phonemic information.

Opera singing, yes. Natural singing is not.

On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 11:49:50 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> >> A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
> >> trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
> >> stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s
> >> Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?
> >> Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
> >> Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
> >> fricatives do.
> >If there aren't two phonemes, there's no neutralization.
> >If you can't figure out when she uses the one and when the other,
> >it's "free variation."
>
> Yes and yes.
> >However, singing is a lousy source of phonetic/phonemic information.
> Untrue, also in this case. A very good and clear source.

After all these years, you still haven't learned the slightest thing
about vocal production during singing.

And the gimmicks used by singers (even "natural" ones) to make
their sung texts more intelligible to the listener.

Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:15:04 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 11:49:50 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >> A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
>> >> trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
>> >> stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s
>> >> Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?
>> >> Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
>> >> Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
>> >> fricatives do.
>> >If there aren't two phonemes, there's no neutralization.
>> >If you can't figure out when she uses the one and when the other,
>> >it's "free variation."
>>
>> Yes and yes.
>> >However, singing is a lousy source of phonetic/phonemic information.
>> Untrue, also in this case. A very good and clear source.
>
>After all these years, you still haven't learned the slightest thing
>about vocal production during singing.
>
>And the gimmicks used by singers (even "natural" ones) to make
>their sung texts more intelligible to the listener.

Sung Greek and spoken Greek I've heard (since 1978 or so), and the
very detailed description I read, by Harry Koundalis (please wait
while I look up the site, https://www.foundalis.com/lan/greek.htm,
it's Foundalis, not Koundalis), they all match.

On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 2:05:14 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:15:04 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 11:49:50 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >> >On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> >> >> A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
> >> >> trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
> >> >> stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s
> >> >> Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?
> >> >> Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
> >> >> Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
> >> >> fricatives do.
> >> >If there aren't two phonemes, there's no neutralization.
> >> >If you can't figure out when she uses the one and when the other,
> >> >it's "free variation."
> >> Yes and yes.
> >> >However, singing is a lousy source of phonetic/phonemic information.
> >> Untrue, also in this case. A very good and clear source.
> >After all these years, you still haven't learned the slightest thing
> >about vocal production during singing.
> >And the gimmicks used by singers (even "natural" ones) to make
> >their sung texts more intelligible to the listener.
>
> Sung Greek and spoken Greek I've heard (since 1978 or so), and the
> very detailed description I read, by Harry Koundalis (please wait
> while I look up the site, https://www.foundalis.com/lan/greek.htm,
> it's Foundalis, not Koundalis), they all match.

Have you ever had a singing lesson?

Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:24:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 2:05:14 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:15:04 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 11:49:50 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> >On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >> >> A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
>> >> >> trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
>> >> >> stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
>> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s
>> >> >> Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?
>> >> >> Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
>> >> >> Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
>> >> >> fricatives do.
>> >> >If there aren't two phonemes, there's no neutralization.
>> >> >If you can't figure out when she uses the one and when the other,
>> >> >it's "free variation."
>> >> Yes and yes.
>> >> >However, singing is a lousy source of phonetic/phonemic information.
>> >> Untrue, also in this case. A very good and clear source.
>> >After all these years, you still haven't learned the slightest thing
>> >about vocal production during singing.
>> >And the gimmicks used by singers (even "natural" ones) to make
>> >their sung texts more intelligible to the listener.
>>
>> Sung Greek and spoken Greek I've heard (since 1978 or so), and the
>> very detailed description I read, by Harry Koundalis (please wait
>> while I look up the site, https://www.foundalis.com/lan/greek.htm,
>> it's Foundalis, not Koundalis), they all match.
>
>Have you ever had a singing lesson?

No, why?

Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:24:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 2:05:14 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:15:04 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 11:49:50 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> >On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >> >> A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
>> >> >> trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
>> >> >> stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
>> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s
>> >> >> Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?
>> >> >> Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
>> >> >> Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
>> >> >> fricatives do.
>> >> >If there aren't two phonemes, there's no neutralization.
>> >> >If you can't figure out when she uses the one and when the other,
>> >> >it's "free variation."
>> >> Yes and yes.
>> >> >However, singing is a lousy source of phonetic/phonemic information.
>> >> Untrue, also in this case. A very good and clear source.
>> >After all these years, you still haven't learned the slightest thing
>> >about vocal production during singing.
>> >And the gimmicks used by singers (even "natural" ones) to make
>> >their sung texts more intelligible to the listener.
>>
>> Sung Greek and spoken Greek I've heard (since 1978 or so), and the
>> very detailed description I read, by Harry Koundalis (please wait
>> while I look up the site, https://www.foundalis.com/lan/greek.htm,
>> it's Foundalis, not Koundalis), they all match.
>
>Have you ever had a singing lesson?

Did you listen to this song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXENIVm0h5M and read along with the
lyrics at
https://www.greekstixoi.gr/stixoi/%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AF-%CE%BD%CE%B1-%CF%86%CF%8D%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%82-%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%AC/
? I did.

Are there discrepancies between what she sings and what is written? If
so, which ones?
Are there discrepancies between what she sings and what would be said
in the spoken language, according to Harry Foundalis’ description? If
so, which ones?

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 7:01:09 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXENIVm0h5M
> lyrics at
> https://www.greekstixoi.gr/stixoi/γιατί-να-φύγεις-μακριά/

“Idiomas" is not languages, but Οι δυο μας, the-two-we, the two of us, we together. Says Google Translate.

ἰδίωμα is also Greek, but has a different stress pattern.

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 7:12:54 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 7:01:09 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXENIVm0h5M
> > lyrics at
> > https://www.greekstixoi.gr/stixoi/γιατί-να-φύγεις-μακριά/
>
> “Idiomas" is not languages, but Οι δυο μας, the-two-we, the two of us, we together. Says Google Translate.
>
> ἰδίωμα is also Greek, but has a different stress pattern.

συνηθίσει, with the vowel phoneme /i/ written in four different ways.

Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:24:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 2:05:14 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:15:04 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 11:49:50 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> >On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >> >> A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
>> >> >> trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
>> >> >> stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
>> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s
>> >> >> Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?
>> >> >> Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
>> >> >> Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
>> >> >> fricatives do.
>> >> >If there aren't two phonemes, there's no neutralization.
>> >> >If you can't figure out when she uses the one and when the other,
>> >> >it's "free variation."
>> >> Yes and yes.
>> >> >However, singing is a lousy source of phonetic/phonemic information.
>> >> Untrue, also in this case. A very good and clear source.
>> >After all these years, you still haven't learned the slightest thing
>> >about vocal production during singing.
>> >And the gimmicks used by singers (even "natural" ones) to make
>> >their sung texts more intelligible to the listener.
>>
>> Sung Greek and spoken Greek I've heard (since 1978 or so), and the
>> very detailed description I read, by Harry Koundalis (please wait
>> while I look up the site, https://www.foundalis.com/lan/greek.htm,
>> it's Foundalis, not Koundalis), they all match.
>
>Have you ever had a singing lesson?

Why would _I_ have to learn how to sing, in other to appreciate
somebody else's singing?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 12:32:14 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:24:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 2:05:14 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:15:04 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >> >On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 11:49:50 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >> >> >On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> >> >> >> A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
> >> >> >> trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
> >> >> >> stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
> >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s
> >> >> >> Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?
> >> >> >> Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
> >> >> >> Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
> >> >> >> fricatives do.
> >> >> >If there aren't two phonemes, there's no neutralization.
> >> >> >If you can't figure out when she uses the one and when the other,
> >> >> >it's "free variation."
> >> >> Yes and yes.
> >> >> >However, singing is a lousy source of phonetic/phonemic information.
> >> >> Untrue, also in this case. A very good and clear source.
> >> >After all these years, you still haven't learned the slightest thing
> >> >about vocal production during singing.
> >> >And the gimmicks used by singers (even "natural" ones) to make
> >> >their sung texts more intelligible to the listener.
> >> Sung Greek and spoken Greek I've heard (since 1978 or so), and the
> >> very detailed description I read, by Harry Koundalis (please wait
> >> while I look up the site, https://www.foundalis.com/lan/greek.htm,
> >> it's Foundalis, not Koundalis), they all match.
> >Have you ever had a singing lesson?
>
> No, why?

As I have been explaining to you for years, singers ARE TAUGHT TO
DISTORT SPEECH-SOUNDS TO MAKE THE LYRICS (somewhat) MORE
INTELLIGIBLE TO THE HEARER.

Not to mention, an entire generation or more of English pop singers
chose to imitate African American accents while singing, in a pretense
of authenticity, or something like that. (White American pop singers
seem not to have done that, or at least to the same extent. Some of
them came by their "Southern accent" naturally, of course.)

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 1:01:09 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:24:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 2:05:14 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:15:04 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >> >On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 11:49:50 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >> >> >On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> >> >> >> A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
> >> >> >> trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
> >> >> >> stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
> >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s
> >> >> >> Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?
> >> >> >> Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
> >> >> >> Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
> >> >> >> fricatives do.
> >> >> >If there aren't two phonemes, there's no neutralization.
> >> >> >If you can't figure out when she uses the one and when the other,
> >> >> >it's "free variation."
> >> >> Yes and yes.
> >> >> >However, singing is a lousy source of phonetic/phonemic information.
> >> >> Untrue, also in this case. A very good and clear source.
> >> >After all these years, you still haven't learned the slightest thing
> >> >about vocal production during singing.
> >> >And the gimmicks used by singers (even "natural" ones) to make
> >> >their sung texts more intelligible to the listener.
> >> Sung Greek and spoken Greek I've heard (since 1978 or so), and the
> >> very detailed description I read, by Harry Koundalis (please wait
> >> while I look up the site, https://www.foundalis.com/lan/greek.htm,
> >> it's Foundalis, not Koundalis), they all match.
> >Have you ever had a singing lesson?
>
> Did you listen to this song
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXENIVm0h5M and read along with the
> lyrics at
> https://www.greekstixoi.gr/stixoi/%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AF-%CE%BD%CE%B1-%CF%86%CF%8D%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%82-%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%AC/
> ? I did.
>
> Are there discrepancies between what she sings and what is written? If
> so, which ones?
> Are there discrepancies between what she sings and what would be said
> in the spoken language, according to Harry Foundalis’ description? If
> so, which ones?

If that's Greek (no, I have no interest in listening to random pop music),
how would I know?

>> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:24:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >Have you ever had a singing lesson?

>On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 12:32:14 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> No, why?

Wed, 23 Jun 2021 05:57:58 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels":
>As I have been explaining to you for years, singers ARE TAUGHT TO
>DISTORT SPEECH-SOUNDS TO MAKE THE LYRICS (somewhat) MORE
>INTELLIGIBLE TO THE HEARER.

Opera singers, yes, for performing in large theaters, accompanied by a
symphony orchestra.

Not Greek rebetika singers. Rempetika is an intimate kind of music,
for small cafés and street corners. Like fado and blues.

Did you even LISTEN to the clips I linked to?

>Not to mention, an entire generation or more of English pop singers
>chose to imitate African American accents while singing, in a pretense
>of authenticity, or something like that.

Yes. But that is irrelevant to Modern Greek.

> (White American pop singers
>seem not to have done that, or at least to the same extent. Some of
>them came by their "Southern accent" naturally, of course.)

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Wed, 23 Jun 2021 06:00:19 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 1:01:09 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:24:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 2:05:14 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:15:04 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> >On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 11:49:50 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> >> Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> >> >On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >> >> >> A nice example of what I think is called neutralisation of a phonetic
>> >> >> >> trait, but that would be the wrong term because it suggests an earlier
>> >> >> >> stage in which the phenomenon wasn't there yet:
>> >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyl1vgbW4U&t=149s
>> >> >> >> Does Maria Fasoulaki sing [triki] or [driki]? And [driki] or [drigi]?
>> >> >> >> Answer: it doesn't matter, the difference is irrelevant in Modern
>> >> >> >> Greek. Plosives do not have the voiced-voiceless opposition, only
>> >> >> >> fricatives do.
>> >> >> >If there aren't two phonemes, there's no neutralization.
>> >> >> >If you can't figure out when she uses the one and when the other,
>> >> >> >it's "free variation."
>> >> >> Yes and yes.
>> >> >> >However, singing is a lousy source of phonetic/phonemic information.
>> >> >> Untrue, also in this case. A very good and clear source.
>> >> >After all these years, you still haven't learned the slightest thing
>> >> >about vocal production during singing.
>> >> >And the gimmicks used by singers (even "natural" ones) to make
>> >> >their sung texts more intelligible to the listener.
>> >> Sung Greek and spoken Greek I've heard (since 1978 or so), and the
>> >> very detailed description I read, by Harry Koundalis (please wait
>> >> while I look up the site, https://www.foundalis.com/lan/greek.htm,
>> >> it's Foundalis, not Koundalis), they all match.
>> >Have you ever had a singing lesson?
>>
>> Did you listen to this song
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXENIVm0h5M and read along with the
>> lyrics at
>> https://www.greekstixoi.gr/stixoi/%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AF-%CE%BD%CE%B1-%CF%86%CF%8D%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%82-%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%AC/
>> ? I did.
>>
>> Are there discrepancies between what she sings and what is written? If
>> so, which ones?
>> Are there discrepancies between what she sings and what would be said
>> in the spoken language, according to Harry Foundalis’ description? If
>> so, which ones?
>
>If that's Greek
>(no, I have no interest in listening to random pop music),

Rebetika is NOT "random pop music".

>how would I know?

By clicking it, maybe? By seeing the script the lyrics are written in?

I may not understand your question, though.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Wed, 23 Jun 2021 16:58:48 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>>> Are there discrepancies between what she sings and what is written? If
>>> so, which ones?
>>> Are there discrepancies between what she sings and what would be said
>>> in the spoken language, according to Harry Foundalis’ description? If
>>> so, which ones?
>>
>>If that's Greek
>>(no, I have no interest in listening to random pop music),
>
>Rebetika is NOT "random pop music".
>
>>how would I know?
>
>By clicking it, maybe? By seeing the script the lyrics are written in?
>
>I may not understand your question, though.

O wait, now I do.

The mapping of Greek spelling to the modern pronunciation (barring
some intricate details) is quite straightforward. The reserve is not
true. So it is easy.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Wed, 23 Jun 2021 17:00:20 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Wed, 23 Jun 2021 16:58:48 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
>scribeva:
>>>> Are there discrepancies between what she sings and what is written? If
>>>> so, which ones?
>>>> Are there discrepancies between what she sings and what would be said
>>>> in the spoken language, according to Harry Foundalis’ description? If
>>>> so, which ones?
>>>
>>>If that's Greek
>>>(no, I have no interest in listening to random pop music),
>>
>>Rebetika is NOT "random pop music".
>>
>>>how would I know?
>>
>>By clicking it, maybe? By seeing the script the lyrics are written in?
>>
>>I may not understand your question, though.
>
>O wait, now I do.
>
>The mapping of Greek spelling to the modern pronunciation (barring
>some intricate details) is quite straightforward. The reserve

Reverse.

>is not true. So it is easy.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxUEZDhfywo
https://www.facebook.com/ruud.harmsen.7/posts/4618947438123721?comment_id=4630480206970444
SO beautiful.

Sometimes culture makes everything worthwhile, and up for anything
else.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com