I was at the hardware store, today. A guy walked in with a
propane tank from a BBQ grill. The staff went ballistic!
"You have to take that around the back!"
"I already did. No one answered the door."
"You can't carry it through the store. It's *illegal*..."
which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth
or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store
policy)

Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are
always stored outside due to convenience and safety. So, it
*may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in*
the store, regardless of duration.

[I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor
what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine
and the fuel source is immediately behind your back). I expected
some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc.

He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible. Call the fire
department. AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE. When
they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!"

I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?]

So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local
requirement or just "store policy"?

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 16:24:52 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>I was at the hardware store, today. A guy walked in with a
>propane tank from a BBQ grill. The staff went ballistic!
> "You have to take that around the back!"
> "I already did. No one answered the door."
> "You can't carry it through the store. It's *illegal*..."
>which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth
>or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store
>policy)
>
>Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are
>always stored outside due to convenience and safety. So, it
>*may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in*
>the store, regardless of duration.
>
>[I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor
>what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine
>and the fuel source is immediately behind your back). I expected
>some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc.
>
>He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible. Call the fire
>department. AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE. When
>they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!"
>
>I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?]
>
>So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local
>requirement or just "store policy"?

I used to work with a fire alarm company in Freehold, New Jersey. They
had a sign on the wall

IN CASE OF FIRE
RUN, YELL "FIRE"

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 16:05:11 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 6:53:42?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> I used to work with a fire alarm company in Freehold, New Jersey. They
>> had a sign on the wall
>>
>> IN CASE OF FIRE
>> RUN, YELL "FIRE"
>
>Propane burns VERY HOT, something like 4,000oF. Just being near it will burn you to death. When those big gas pipelines go up, they burn to a crisp everything within 500 ft. It must be extinguished from a distance. An empty propane tank really shouldn't burn at all.

Freehold wouldn't be a great loss to the world.

On 2023-12-16 00:24, Don Y wrote:
> I was at the hardware store, today.  A guy walked in with a
> propane tank from a BBQ grill.  The staff went ballistic!
>    "You have to take that around the back!"
>    "I already did.  No one answered the door."
>    "You can't carry it through the store.  It's *illegal*..."
> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth
> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store
> policy)
>
> Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are
> always stored outside due to convenience and safety.  So, it
> *may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in*
> the store, regardless of duration.
>
> [I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor
> what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine
> and the fuel source is immediately behind your back).  I expected
> some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc.
>
> He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible.  Call the fire
> department.  AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE.  When
> they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!"
>
> I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?]
>
> So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local
> requirement or just "store policy"?

I guess that if the flames hit the container, it can explode, and that
is a big problem. The fire itself, maybe not so much.

Where I live, propane containers are rare; butane containers are much
more "popular". So I'm not familiar with them. I heard they are more
common in colder climates (because butane doesn't gasify that easily
when cold).

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 12:06:49 PM UTC+11, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-12-16 00:24, Don Y wrote:
> > I was at the hardware store, today. A guy walked in with a
> > propane tank from a BBQ grill. The staff went ballistic!
> > "You have to take that around the back!"
> > "I already did. No one answered the door."
> > "You can't carry it through the store. It's *illegal*..."
> > which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth
> > or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store
> > policy)
> >
> > Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are
> > always stored outside due to convenience and safety. So, it
> > *may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in*
> > the store, regardless of duration.
> >
> > [I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor
> > what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine
> > and the fuel source is immediately behind your back). I expected
> > some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc.
> >
> > He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible. Call the fire
> > department. AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE. When
> > they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!"
> >
> > I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?]
> >
> > So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local
> > requirement or just "store policy"?
> I guess that if the flames hit the container, it can explode, and that
> is a big problem. The fire itself, maybe not so much.
>
>
> Where I live, propane containers are rare; butane containers are much
> more "popular". So I'm not familiar with them. I heard they are more
> common in colder climates (because butane doesn't gasify that easily
> when cold).

The boiling point of propane is -42C, of butane -1C (so it gasifies very slightly more easily than water). The process takes heat.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 2023-12-16 00:24, Don Y wrote:
> I was at the hardware store, today.  A guy walked in with a
> propane tank from a BBQ grill.  The staff went ballistic!
>    "You have to take that around the back!"
>    "I already did.  No one answered the door."
>    "You can't carry it through the store.  It's *illegal*..."
> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth
> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store
> policy)

It looks to me as if this situation is covered by Code 58 of the
National Fire Prevention Association code (which is probably
incorporated "by reference" into most local codes).

"In NFPA 58, buildings frequented by the public are limited to
cylinders with a propane capacity of 1 pound. The total quantity
stored is limited to 200 pounds of propane. Buildings not frequented
by the public are limited to a maximum quantity of 300 pounds of
propane. The cylinder size is not restricted"

In article <rm9v4kxk33.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>,
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>I guess that if the flames hit the container, it can explode, and that
>is a big problem. The fire itself, maybe not so much.

Yup. It's a double-acting bomb.

The first boom is when the cylinder ruptures from overpressure. It's
like any metal tank exploding - it could throw metal shrapnel for
quite some distance. If the valve fails before the cylinder wall
does, it can turn the cylinder into a jet-propelled projectile.

The second boom is when the propane (or butane or etc.) mixes with the
air sufficiently and then flashes into flame. It becomes a fuel/air
bomb, which does damage both by the force of the explosion, and by the
huge amount of heat released by a large flame-front.

One of the big hazards of storing fuel-gas indoors is that effect #2
can happen as a result of any leak from the storage cylinder. It
doesn't take an external fire or flame. A leaking valve, or a big
cylinder which falls over and damages or breaks off the valve
assembly, can convert a building into a time-bomb in very short order.
Any spark then sets off the explosion... flipping a wall light
switch on or off can be all it takes. Demolished buildings are
the result.

Youtube has plenty of clips - for example see

https://youtu.be/BUJPvoped2M?si=PYlIBIbX6tFn6xY3

On 12/15/2023 6:04 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-12-16 00:24, Don Y wrote:
>> I was at the hardware store, today.  A guy walked in with a
>> propane tank from a BBQ grill.  The staff went ballistic!
>>     "You have to take that around the back!"
>>     "I already did.  No one answered the door."
>>     "You can't carry it through the store.  It's *illegal*..."
>> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth
>> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store
>> policy)
>>
>> Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are
>> always stored outside due to convenience and safety.  So, it
>> *may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in*
>> the store, regardless of duration.
>>
>> [I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor
>> what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine
>> and the fuel source is immediately behind your back).  I expected
>> some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc.
>>
>> He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible.  Call the fire
>> department.  AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE.  When
>> they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!"
>>
>> I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?]
>>
>> So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local
>> requirement or just "store policy"?
>
> I guess that if the flames hit the container, it can explode, and that is a big
> problem. The fire itself, maybe not so much.

I think it's more than just being exposed to fire. Tanks can leak.
Customers can fail to completely close the valve. Tanks can degrade
over time (who knows how long the customer had it and how he cared
for it).

In the forklift scenario, there are other components involved
(hoses, connections, engine, etc.)

> Where I live, propane containers are rare; butane containers are much more
> "popular". So I'm not familiar with them. I heard they are more common in
> colder climates (because butane doesn't gasify that easily when cold).

I know some folks heat with propane on this side of the pond -- likely
places where natural gas isn't available via "neighborhood pipeline".
(I think my sister used it at one of her homes).

Some businesses will refill these small (BBQ) propane tanks from
a large tank on the premises. Others apparently outsource that
to some other firm that swaps out the collected empties for
newly-filled containers.

But, in each of these cases, it seems like the transaction occurs
outdoors. I just don't know if that is mandated by law or just
done out of an abundance of caution.

(Imagine an indoor supply developing a leak over a weekend
when the store is "closed up tight" and fresh air and an
ignition source introduced...)

On 12/15/2023 6:27 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
> On 2023-12-16 00:24, Don Y wrote:
>> I was at the hardware store, today.  A guy walked in with a
>> propane tank from a BBQ grill.  The staff went ballistic!
>>    "You have to take that around the back!"
>>    "I already did.  No one answered the door."
>>    "You can't carry it through the store.  It's *illegal*..."
>> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth
>> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store
>> policy)
>
> It looks to me as if this situation is covered by Code 58 of the
> National Fire Prevention Association code (which is probably
> incorporated "by reference" into most local codes).
>
> "In NFPA 58, buildings frequented by the public are limited to
> cylinders with a propane capacity of 1 pound.

OK. That would explain how small propane tanks (for torches)
are tolerated. And, apparently limit the NUMBER of them that
can be on shelves for purchase.

But, that seems to apply to the owner/operator of the building.
How does it extend to "guests/customers entering the facility"?
Esp as the state of the tank (contents) is indeterminate.

> The total quantity
> stored is limited to 200 pounds of propane. Buildings not frequented
> by the public are limited to a maximum quantity of 300 pounds of
> propane. The cylinder size is not restricted"

On 12/15/2023 6:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
<snip>
>
> [I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor
> what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine
> and the fuel source is immediately behind your back).  I expected
> some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc.
>
> He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible.  Call the fire
> department.  AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE.  When
> they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!"
>
> I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?]

The problem is that propane gas is heavier than air,
so it doesn't readily dissipate like natural gas would.

>
> So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local
> requirement or just "store policy"?
>

Dunno.
Ed

On 12/15/23 18:24, Don Y wrote:
> I was at the hardware store, today.  A guy walked in with a
> propane tank from a BBQ grill.  The staff went ballistic!
>    "You have to take that around the back!"
>    "I already did.  No one answered the door."
>    "You can't carry it through the store.  It's *illegal*..."
> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth
> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store
> policy)
>
> Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are
> always stored outside due to convenience and safety.  So, it
> *may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in*
> the store, regardless of duration.
<snip>
More info....

Virginian Fire code:

6109.15 LP-Gas Cylinder Exchange for Resale
In addition to other applicable requirements of this chapter, facilities
operating LP-gas cylinder exchange stations that are accessible to the
public shall comply with the following requirements.

Cylinders shall be secured in a lockable, ventilated metal cabinet
or other approved enclosure.
Cylinders shall be accessible only by authorized personnel or by
use of an automated exchange system in accordance with Section 6109.15.1.
A sign shall be posted on the entry door of the business operating
the cylinder exchange stating "DO NOT BRING LP-GAS CYLINDERS INTO THE
BUILDING" or similar approved wording.
An emergency contact information sign shall be posted within 10
feet (3048 mm) of the cylinder storage cabinet. The content, lettering,
size, color and location of the required sign shall be as required by
the fire code official.

On 2023-12-16 02:27, Dave Platt wrote:
> On 2023-12-16 00:24, Don Y wrote:
>> I was at the hardware store, today.  A guy walked in with a
>> propane tank from a BBQ grill.  The staff went ballistic!
>>    "You have to take that around the back!"
>>    "I already did.  No one answered the door."
>>    "You can't carry it through the store.  It's *illegal*..."
>> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth
>> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store
>> policy)
>
> It looks to me as if this situation is covered by Code 58 of the
> National Fire Prevention Association code (which is probably
> incorporated "by reference" into most local codes).
>
> "In NFPA 58, buildings frequented by the public are limited to
> cylinders with a propane capacity of 1 pound. The total quantity
> stored is limited to 200 pounds of propane. Buildings not frequented
> by the public are limited to a maximum quantity of 300 pounds of
> propane. The cylinder size is not restricted"
>
> In article <rm9v4kxk33.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>,
> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I guess that if the flames hit the container, it can explode, and that
>> is a big problem. The fire itself, maybe not so much.
>
> Yup. It's a double-acting bomb.
>
> The first boom is when the cylinder ruptures from overpressure. It's
> like any metal tank exploding - it could throw metal shrapnel for
> quite some distance. If the valve fails before the cylinder wall
> does, it can turn the cylinder into a jet-propelled projectile.
>
> The second boom is when the propane (or butane or etc.) mixes with the
> air sufficiently and then flashes into flame. It becomes a fuel/air
> bomb, which does damage both by the force of the explosion, and by the
> huge amount of heat released by a large flame-front.
>
> One of the big hazards of storing fuel-gas indoors is that effect #2
> can happen as a result of any leak from the storage cylinder. It
> doesn't take an external fire or flame. A leaking valve, or a big
> cylinder which falls over and damages or breaks off the valve
> assembly, can convert a building into a time-bomb in very short order.
> Any spark then sets off the explosion... flipping a wall light
> switch on or off can be all it takes. Demolished buildings are
> the result.

There is a difference.

If the container bursts, the gas is not mixed with sufficient oxygen to
burn very fast or explosively (not as big as it could be). On the other
hand, a bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and oxygen that is
indeed explosive.

My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel tanks
were more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a mixture of fuel
and air, they could explode.

> Youtube has plenty of clips - for example see
>
> https://youtu.be/BUJPvoped2M?si=PYlIBIbX6tFn6xY3

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 12/15/2023 10:47 PM, jim whitby wrote:
> On 12/15/23 18:24, Don Y wrote:
>> I was at the hardware store, today.  A guy walked in with a
>> propane tank from a BBQ grill.  The staff went ballistic!
>>     "You have to take that around the back!"
>>     "I already did.  No one answered the door."
>>     "You can't carry it through the store.  It's *illegal*..."
>> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth
>> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store
>> policy)
>>
>> Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are
>> always stored outside due to convenience and safety.  So, it
>> *may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in*
>> the store, regardless of duration.
> <snip>
> More info....
>
> Virginian Fire code:
>
> 6109.15 LP-Gas Cylinder Exchange for Resale
> In addition to other applicable requirements of this chapter, facilities
> operating LP-gas cylinder exchange stations that are accessible to the public
> shall comply with the following requirements.
>
>     Cylinders shall be secured in a lockable, ventilated metal cabinet or
> other approved enclosure.
>     Cylinders shall be accessible only by authorized personnel or by use of an
> automated exchange system in accordance with Section 6109.15.1.
>     A sign shall be posted on the entry door of the business operating the
> cylinder exchange stating "DO NOT BRING LP-GAS CYLINDERS INTO THE BUILDING" or
> similar approved wording.
>     An emergency contact information sign shall be posted within 10 feet (3048
> mm) of the cylinder storage cabinet. The content, lettering, size, color and
> location of the required sign shall be as required by the fire code official.

So, would you ASSUME this puts the onus on the "facility" to enforce
the requirement? I.e., the guy (in my example) who walked *through*
the hardware store, cussing the staff, carrying the tank to the back
of the store is not "at fault" (legally) for his "noncompliance".
Rather, if "someone of authority" happened to witness the event,
the "facility" would be cited for a violation for failing to
prevent the guy from walking through the store, as such?

I.e., an underage customer purchasing tobacco would result in
the proprietor being cited, not the "customer"...

If this is the case, then it poses an interesting dilemma for
the business owner: if you're a hardass with the customer who
is "misbehaving", you protect yourself legally -- at the risk
of pissing off the customer!

[In my example, the customer walked all the way to the rear of the store,
encountered some other staff (besides the cashier who had told him he
couldn't come in with the tank), "had words"...

Then, *that* staff member came back to the front of the store, tank
in HIS hand, to set the tank outside the front door. I.e., as if
the customer had never caused the violation.

Some time later -- after more "words" -- the customer left the
building... leaving his tank /where the employee had left it/.
The employee returned to pick up the tank and carry it around
to the back of the building -- as expected. (one has to wonder
if the employee would have taken a shortcut through the store
had the customer's actions not drawn so much attention to the event!)

Too funny!]

On 12/16/2023 6:09 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> There is a difference.
>
> If the container bursts, the gas is not mixed with sufficient oxygen to burn
> very fast or explosively (not as big as it could be).

... until someone opens a door, Monday morning, and the room fills with
fresh air just in time for the ignition spark from the light switch.

> On the other hand, a
> bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and oxygen that is indeed explosive.
>
> My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel tanks were
> more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a mixture of fuel and air,
> they could explode.

When a customer returns a tank for refill, you have no idea as to how much
propane is present. If it developed a fault with the valve, it may never
have had ANY gas consumed. Or, it may be bone dry. Or, empty *enough*
that the customer didn't want to dick around with getting halfway through
a meal prep only to discover the tank was finally exhausted.

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 00:47:28 -0500, jim whitby <jim@afraid.org> wrote:

>On 12/15/23 18:24, Don Y wrote:
>> I was at the hardware store, today.  A guy walked in with a
>> propane tank from a BBQ grill.  The staff went ballistic!
>>    "You have to take that around the back!"
>>    "I already did.  No one answered the door."
>>    "You can't carry it through the store.  It's *illegal*..."
>> which, immediately got me wondering if that's a truth
>> or just an exaggerated belief (illegal == not tolerated by store
>> policy)
>>
>> Of course, such tanks (empty and full-ready-for-resale) are
>> always stored outside due to convenience and safety.  So, it
>> *may* be true that local ordinances prevent them from being *in*
>> the store, regardless of duration.
><snip>
>More info....
>
>Virginian Fire code:
>
>6109.15 LP-Gas Cylinder Exchange for Resale
>In addition to other applicable requirements of this chapter, facilities
>operating LP-gas cylinder exchange stations that are accessible to the
>public shall comply with the following requirements.
>
> Cylinders shall be secured in a lockable, ventilated metal cabinet
>or other approved enclosure.
> Cylinders shall be accessible only by authorized personnel or by
>use of an automated exchange system in accordance with Section 6109.15.1.
> A sign shall be posted on the entry door of the business operating
>the cylinder exchange stating "DO NOT BRING LP-GAS CYLINDERS INTO THE
>BUILDING" or similar approved wording.
> An emergency contact information sign shall be posted within 10
>feet (3048 mm) of the cylinder storage cabinet. The content, lettering,
>size, color and location of the required sign shall be as required by
>the fire code official.

We have a similar regulation in Mass.

And don't forget the Insurance Company. After your business vanishes
in a big explosion, your friendly Insurance Agent is suddenly
unfriendly.

Joe Gwinn

On 2023-12-16, Don Y wrote:
> [...]
> So, would you ASSUME this puts the onus on the "facility" to enforce
> the requirement? I.e., the guy (in my example) who walked *through*
> the hardware store, cussing the staff, carrying the tank to the back
> of the store is not "at fault" (legally) for his "noncompliance".
> Rather, if "someone of authority" happened to witness the event,
> the "facility" would be cited for a violation for failing to
> prevent the guy from walking through the store, as such?

Depends on how the fire marshal feels that day; there do tend to be
different options they have in that regard.

> I.e., an underage customer purchasing tobacco would result in
> the proprietor being cited, not the "customer"...

Well, both. Different citations, though. ("Sale to a minor" and "Minor
in possession of...")

> If this is the case, then it poses an interesting dilemma for
> the business owner: if you're a hardass with the customer who
> is "misbehaving", you protect yourself legally -- at the risk
> of pissing off the customer!

Better to "lose" one moron semi-customer than the store.

>
> [In my example, the customer walked all the way to the rear of the store,
> encountered some other staff (besides the cashier who had told him he
> couldn't come in with the tank), "had words"...
>
> Then, *that* staff member came back to the front of the store, tank
> in HIS hand, to set the tank outside the front door. I.e., as if
> the customer had never caused the violation.

Tank has to get *out* of the store somehow; and if the "customer" is
being a petulant little brat about it, then it's most likely gonna be a
store employee getting it out ...

> Some time later -- after more "words" -- the customer left the
> building... leaving his tank /where the employee had left it/.
> The employee returned to pick up the tank and carry it around
> to the back of the building -- as expected. (one has to wonder
> if the employee would have taken a shortcut through the store
> had the customer's actions not drawn so much attention to the event!)

If it was the smaller places around here (True-Value affiliates), the
employee would probably be fired on the spot (or at least we would've
been back when I was a kid working at one...)

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

On 2023-12-16 22:29, Don Y wrote:
> On 12/16/2023 6:09 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> There is a difference.
>>
>> If the container bursts, the gas is not mixed with sufficient oxygen
>> to burn very fast or explosively (not as big as it could be).
>
> .. until someone opens a door, Monday morning, and the room fills with
> fresh air just in time for the ignition spark from the light switch.

Woshhhh! :-) Big flame or explosion.

You know that if the room is totally filled with gas, it can not
explode? :-)

There is a proportion of gas and air that explodes. If the proportion is
not met, it burns fast, or very very fast, but doesn't explode.

You may remember that a carburettor car with the motor soaked in
gasoline doesn't start. You had to let the car stand for half an hour
before trying again. Or push the accelerator to the end, not moving it,
then turn the key, so that it ventilated. After a while you could try to
start it for real.

>
>> On the other hand, a bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and
>> oxygen that is indeed explosive.
>>
>> My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel
>> tanks were more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a mixture
>> of fuel and air, they could explode.
>
> When a customer returns a tank for refill, you have no idea as to how much
> propane is present.  If it developed a fault with the valve, it may never
> have had ANY gas consumed.  Or, it may be bone dry.  Or, empty *enough*
> that the customer didn't want to dick around with getting halfway through
> a meal prep only to discover the tank was finally exhausted.

Here, we have two bottles of butane on the kitchen, one connected, one
spare. If the bottle gives way in the middle of cooking, we just switch
the bottle, which here is a minute, 15" if you are on a hurry. We have a
quick disconnect/connect device :-)

Then we replace the empty bottle at a leisure.

Things get interesting with the shower hot water if the bottle gives way
just in mid shower, you are alone, and you have to get out to the garden
to switch the bottles with your hair full of shampoo in winter ;-)

Yeah, BTDT.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 04:39:59 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2023-12-16 22:29, Don Y wrote:
>> On 12/16/2023 6:09 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> There is a difference.
>>>
>>> If the container bursts, the gas is not mixed with sufficient oxygen
>>> to burn very fast or explosively (not as big as it could be).
>>
>> .. until someone opens a door, Monday morning, and the room fills with
>> fresh air just in time for the ignition spark from the light switch.
>
>Woshhhh! :-) Big flame or explosion.
>
>
>You know that if the room is totally filled with gas, it can not
>explode? :-)
>
>There is a proportion of gas and air that explodes. If the proportion is
>not met, it burns fast, or very very fast, but doesn't explode.
>
>You may remember that a carburettor car with the motor soaked in
>gasoline doesn't start. You had to let the car stand for half an hour
>before trying again. Or push the accelerator to the end, not moving it,
>then turn the key, so that it ventilated. After a while you could try to
>start it for real.
>
>>
>>> On the other hand, a bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and
>>> oxygen that is indeed explosive.
>>>
>>> My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel
>>> tanks were more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a mixture
>>> of fuel and air, they could explode.
>>
>> When a customer returns a tank for refill, you have no idea as to how much
>> propane is present.  If it developed a fault with the valve, it may never
>> have had ANY gas consumed.  Or, it may be bone dry.  Or, empty *enough*
>> that the customer didn't want to dick around with getting halfway through
>> a meal prep only to discover the tank was finally exhausted.
>
>Here, we have two bottles of butane on the kitchen, one connected, one
>spare. If the bottle gives way in the middle of cooking, we just switch
>the bottle, which here is a minute, 15" if you are on a hurry. We have a
>quick disconnect/connect device :-)
>
>Then we replace the empty bottle at a leisure.
>
>Things get interesting with the shower hot water if the bottle gives way
>just in mid shower, you are alone, and you have to get out to the garden
>to switch the bottles with your hair full of shampoo in winter ;-)
>
>Yeah, BTDT.

Water failure mid-shower is a terrifying thought.

On 12/16/2023 8:39 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-12-16 22:29, Don Y wrote:
>> On 12/16/2023 6:09 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> There is a difference.
>>>
>>> If the container bursts, the gas is not mixed with sufficient oxygen to burn
>>> very fast or explosively (not as big as it could be).
>>
>> .. until someone opens a door, Monday morning, and the room fills with
>> fresh air just in time for the ignition spark from the light switch.
>
> Woshhhh!  :-)  Big flame or explosion.
>
> You know that if the room is totally filled with gas, it can not explode? :-)

Yes -- but "adding air" to a room is a relatively common occurrence...
done without deliberate consideration!

> There is a proportion of gas and air that explodes. If the proportion is not
> met, it burns fast, or very very fast, but doesn't explode.
>
> You may remember that a carburettor car with the motor soaked in gasoline
> doesn't start. You had to let the car stand for half an hour before trying
> again. Or push the accelerator to the end, not moving it, then turn the key, so
> that it ventilated. After a while you could try to start it for real.

Yes. The idiots who'd pump the pedal endlessly thinking it would
*help* things...

I used to have a home-brewed "spark indicator" in the dash on one of
my cars on the premis that failure to start is either fuel or ignition... :>

>>> On the other hand, a bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and oxygen
>>> that is indeed explosive.
>>>
>>> My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel tanks
>>> were more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a mixture of fuel and
>>> air, they could explode.
>>
>> When a customer returns a tank for refill, you have no idea as to how much
>> propane is present.  If it developed a fault with the valve, it may never
>> have had ANY gas consumed.  Or, it may be bone dry.  Or, empty *enough*
>> that the customer didn't want to dick around with getting halfway through
>> a meal prep only to discover the tank was finally exhausted.
>
> Here, we have two bottles of butane on the kitchen, one connected, one spare.
> If the bottle gives way in the middle of cooking, we just switch the bottle,
> which here is a minute, 15" if you are on a hurry. We have a quick
> disconnect/connect device :-)
>
> Then we replace the empty bottle at a leisure.

I suspect folks who use "propane grills" (outdoor cooking) likely only
have a single tank (they are large and seldom used... why keep *two*?)

> Things get interesting with the shower hot water if the bottle gives way just
> in mid shower, you are alone, and you have to get out to the garden to switch
> the bottles with your hair full of shampoo in winter ;-)
>
> Yeah, BTDT.

Growing up, we had oil-fired domestic hot water. The supply was quite limited.
And, subject to "dropouts" if someone flushed a toilet, started a load of
laundry, etc. It was common sense to ANNOUNCE your desire to take a shower
before putting yourself at the mercy of others' "activities".

Going off to school, we had a 5,000G hot water tank for the dorm. ENDLESS
supplies of hot water!

On 12/16/2023 6:54 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-12-16, Don Y wrote:
>> [...]
>> So, would you ASSUME this puts the onus on the "facility" to enforce
>> the requirement? I.e., the guy (in my example) who walked *through*
>> the hardware store, cussing the staff, carrying the tank to the back
>> of the store is not "at fault" (legally) for his "noncompliance".
>> Rather, if "someone of authority" happened to witness the event,
>> the "facility" would be cited for a violation for failing to
>> prevent the guy from walking through the store, as such?
>
> Depends on how the fire marshal feels that day; there do tend to be
> different options they have in that regard.

The point being that the *customer* wouldn't be cited.

>> I.e., an underage customer purchasing tobacco would result in
>> the proprietor being cited, not the "customer"...
>
> Well, both. Different citations, though. ("Sale to a minor" and "Minor
> in possession of...")

When I was a kid, smoking was legal at 16. So, 15 years and younger
to be "in possession of". NO ONE was ever thus cited. Worse case,
a cop would drive you home and "tattle" to your folks.

[Or, given the size of the town, word would get to them through
the grapevine, eventually]

>> If this is the case, then it poses an interesting dilemma for
>> the business owner: if you're a hardass with the customer who
>> is "misbehaving", you protect yourself legally -- at the risk
>> of pissing off the customer!
>
> Better to "lose" one moron semi-customer than the store.

But there are different ways to handle a "customer complaint".
The fact that the store employee took the tank and walked it back
out to the FRONT of the store, depositing it there, likely had
a more negative impact on the customer than if he had ACCEPTED
the tank, refilled it and (politely) LECTURED the customer
as to WHY his action was objectionable.

There are hardware stores (and places to refill propane tanks)
every mile or so, here, making it really easy for a customer to
decide to take his business (propane and otherwise) elsewhere.

>> [In my example, the customer walked all the way to the rear of the store,
>> encountered some other staff (besides the cashier who had told him he
>> couldn't come in with the tank), "had words"...
>>
>> Then, *that* staff member came back to the front of the store, tank
>> in HIS hand, to set the tank outside the front door. I.e., as if
>> the customer had never caused the violation.
>
> Tank has to get *out* of the store somehow; and if the "customer" is
> being a petulant little brat about it, then it's most likely gonna be a
> store employee getting it out ...

Store employee could have just walked it out the BACK door
which was imediately adjacent to his location. I'm sure that's
how the customer saw it, too.

In the customer's mind, he likely thought he'd a /fait accompli/
(who the hell would carry the tank back out the FRONT door when
the BACK door -- that he was supposed to use -- was just 3 ft away?)
So, the customer likely saw the employee's actions as that of a
ball-buster.

>> Some time later -- after more "words" -- the customer left the
>> building... leaving his tank /where the employee had left it/.
>> The employee returned to pick up the tank and carry it around
>> to the back of the building -- as expected. (one has to wonder
>> if the employee would have taken a shortcut through the store
>> had the customer's actions not drawn so much attention to the event!)
>
> If it was the smaller places around here (True-Value affiliates), the
> employee would probably be fired on the spot (or at least we would've
> been back when I was a kid working at one...)

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 11:56:58 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 12/16/2023 8:39 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-12-16 22:29, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 12/16/2023 6:09 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> There is a difference.
>>>>
>>>> If the container bursts, the gas is not mixed with sufficient oxygen to burn
>>>> very fast or explosively (not as big as it could be).
>>>
>>> .. until someone opens a door, Monday morning, and the room fills with
>>> fresh air just in time for the ignition spark from the light switch.
>>
>> Woshhhh!  :-)  Big flame or explosion.
>>
>> You know that if the room is totally filled with gas, it can not explode? :-)
>
>Yes -- but "adding air" to a room is a relatively common occurrence...
>done without deliberate consideration!
>
>> There is a proportion of gas and air that explodes. If the proportion is not
>> met, it burns fast, or very very fast, but doesn't explode.
>>
>> You may remember that a carburettor car with the motor soaked in gasoline
>> doesn't start. You had to let the car stand for half an hour before trying
>> again. Or push the accelerator to the end, not moving it, then turn the key, so
>> that it ventilated. After a while you could try to start it for real.
>
>Yes. The idiots who'd pump the pedal endlessly thinking it would
>*help* things...
>
>I used to have a home-brewed "spark indicator" in the dash on one of
>my cars on the premis that failure to start is either fuel or ignition... :>
>
>>>> On the other hand, a bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and oxygen
>>>> that is indeed explosive.
>>>>
>>>> My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel tanks
>>>> were more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a mixture of fuel and
>>>> air, they could explode.
>>>
>>> When a customer returns a tank for refill, you have no idea as to how much
>>> propane is present.  If it developed a fault with the valve, it may never
>>> have had ANY gas consumed.  Or, it may be bone dry.  Or, empty *enough*
>>> that the customer didn't want to dick around with getting halfway through
>>> a meal prep only to discover the tank was finally exhausted.
>>
>> Here, we have two bottles of butane on the kitchen, one connected, one spare.
>> If the bottle gives way in the middle of cooking, we just switch the bottle,
>> which here is a minute, 15" if you are on a hurry. We have a quick
>> disconnect/connect device :-)
>>
>> Then we replace the empty bottle at a leisure.
>
>I suspect folks who use "propane grills" (outdoor cooking) likely only
>have a single tank (they are large and seldom used... why keep *two*?)
>

So that when one runs out, you don't ruin the salmon and steaks.

And so that you don't have to drive to the refill place so often.

>> Things get interesting with the shower hot water if the bottle gives way just
>> in mid shower, you are alone, and you have to get out to the garden to switch
>> the bottles with your hair full of shampoo in winter ;-)
>>
>> Yeah, BTDT.
>
>Growing up, we had oil-fired domestic hot water. The supply was quite limited.
>And, subject to "dropouts" if someone flushed a toilet, started a load of
>laundry, etc. It was common sense to ANNOUNCE your desire to take a shower
>before putting yourself at the mercy of others' "activities".
>
>Going off to school, we had a 5,000G hot water tank for the dorm. ENDLESS
>supplies of hot water!
>

We have 80 gal NG-fired water heaters at our house and cabin. Lots of
nice hot water.

On 12/15/2023 7:42 PM, ehsjr wrote:
> On 12/15/2023 6:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> [I recall, when getting forklift certified, asking the instructor
>> what to do in the event of a fire (cuz you are sitting ON the engine
>> and the fuel source is immediately behind your back).  I expected
>> some PRACTICAL sort of advice -- like how to put it out, etc.
>>
>> He ended up saying, "Get as far away as possible.  Call the fire
>> department.  AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A PROPANE FORKLIFT FIRE.  When
>> they arrive, they will likely park A BLOCK AWAY!"
>>
>> I guess propane explosions are spectacular! ?]
>
> The problem is that propane gas is heavier than air,
> so it doesn't readily dissipate like natural gas would.

Possibly. But, we operated the truck outdoors so
less likely for it to "pool" anywhere. I think the
fear is a hose melting leading to uncontrolled flame...
leading to tank heating... leading to explosion.
In an enclosed space, there might be a different
failure mode.

I'd feel much safer on an electric truck but they are
more of a (daily) maintenance issue (important when
you can't count on having staff available every day).

>> So, anyone know if this is a universal prohibition, a local
>> requirement or just "store policy"?
>>
>
> Dunno.
> Ed

On 2023-12-17 19:56, Don Y wrote:
> On 12/16/2023 8:39 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-12-16 22:29, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 12/16/2023 6:09 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

.....

>> You may remember that a carburettor car with the motor soaked in
>> gasoline doesn't start. You had to let the car stand for half an hour
>> before trying again. Or push the accelerator to the end, not moving
>> it, then turn the key, so that it ventilated. After a while you could
>> try to start it for real.
>
> Yes.  The idiots who'd pump the pedal endlessly thinking it would
> *help* things...
>
> I used to have a home-brewed "spark indicator" in the dash on one of
> my cars on the premis that failure to start is either fuel or
> ignition... :>

What was that? :-?

>
>>>> On the other hand, a bottle leaking can produce a mixture of gas and
>>>> oxygen that is indeed explosive.
>>>>
>>>> My father, who worked on a refinery, said that the huge empty fuel
>>>> tanks were more dangerous than the full ones. The former had a
>>>> mixture of fuel and air, they could explode.
>>>
>>> When a customer returns a tank for refill, you have no idea as to how
>>> much
>>> propane is present.  If it developed a fault with the valve, it may
>>> never
>>> have had ANY gas consumed.  Or, it may be bone dry.  Or, empty *enough*
>>> that the customer didn't want to dick around with getting halfway
>>> through
>>> a meal prep only to discover the tank was finally exhausted.
>>
>> Here, we have two bottles of butane on the kitchen, one connected, one
>> spare. If the bottle gives way in the middle of cooking, we just
>> switch the bottle, which here is a minute, 15" if you are on a hurry.
>> We have a quick disconnect/connect device :-)
>>
>> Then we replace the empty bottle at a leisure.
>
> I suspect folks who use "propane grills" (outdoor cooking) likely only
> have a single tank (they are large and seldom used... why keep *two*?)

Quite possibly.

>
>> Things get interesting with the shower hot water if the bottle gives
>> way just in mid shower, you are alone, and you have to get out to the
>> garden to switch the bottles with your hair full of shampoo in winter ;-)
>>
>> Yeah, BTDT.
>
> Growing up, we had oil-fired domestic hot water.  The supply was quite
> limited.
> And, subject to "dropouts" if someone flushed a toilet, started a load of
> laundry, etc.  It was common sense to ANNOUNCE your desire to take a shower
> before putting yourself at the mercy of others' "activities".

Oh, yes!

Some modern water flash heaters have automatic regulation. They increase
or decrease the gas output automatically to try keep the water
temperature constant.

I don't have that in this place. I did a mistake when I purchased the
last one when replacing the previous (broken) one. It is not only the
problem of someone using the water at the same time, but that the temp
varies a lot if you try to use less water.

>
> Going off to school, we had a 5,000G hot water tank for the dorm.  ENDLESS
> supplies of hot water!

:-)

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 12/17/2023 12:18 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> I used to have a home-brewed "spark indicator" in the dash on one of
>> my cars on the premis that failure to start is either fuel or ignition... :>
>
> What was that? :-?

Just a wire wrapped around a plug wire (coil wire is a better choice)
and fed to a neon. You aren't looking for anything more than "do I
have spark" -- back in the days wit distributors, points, condenser, etc.

>>> Then we replace the empty bottle at a leisure.
>>
>> I suspect folks who use "propane grills" (outdoor cooking) likely only
>> have a single tank (they are large and seldom used... why keep *two*?)
>
> Quite possibly.

It's relatively easy to find a source of refill/replacement. Once out
of my subdivision, it's 1/3 mi to one source, a 5/4 mi the other way to
another source, 2 mi the first direction to yet another, then again at
3 mi, etc.

As long as you aren't grilling at midnight, you can likely find
a refill/replacement.

But, it's not *convenient*.

OTOH, it's not convenient to store an ExTRA 25lb propane tank just
to cover for the case where you failed to check your supply BEFORE
grilling.

>> Growing up, we had oil-fired domestic hot water.  The supply was quite limited.
>> And, subject to "dropouts" if someone flushed a toilet, started a load of
>> laundry, etc.  It was common sense to ANNOUNCE your desire to take a shower
>> before putting yourself at the mercy of others' "activities".
>
> Oh, yes!
>
> Some modern water flash heaters have automatic regulation. They increase or
> decrease the gas output automatically to try keep the water temperature constant.

No substitute for *mass*, in that case.

> I don't have that in this place. I did a mistake when I purchased the last one
> when replacing the previous (broken) one. It is not only the problem of someone
> using the water at the same time, but that the temp varies a lot if you try to
> use less water.

I'd prefer smaller heaters at point of use (to minimize transport delay).
But, also like the fact that the *single* water heater can be out of the
living space (whereas all points of use are *in* that space).

We tend not to fret our DOMESTIC energy usage (which is likely far
above most folks). We don't consume as much commuting (5000 *shared*
miles on the road) or travel (aside from offsites, we don't do any
long distance traveling -- too tedious nowadays!) so rationalize our
OTHER excesses...

>> Going off to school, we had a 5,000G hot water tank for the dorm.  ENDLESS
>> supplies of hot water!
>
> :-)

Yes. Shower sex can be really distressing if you run out of hot/warm water
in the act! :-/