<eom>

['jOrd@nvAnFOr'e:st]

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:25:34 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>['jOrd@nvAnFOr'e:st]

https://nl.forvo.com/word/foreest/
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 8:31:52 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:25:34 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> scribeva:
> >['jOrd@nvAnFOr'e:st]
>
> https://nl.forvo.com/word/foreest/
> --
> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Thanks.

Is it related to the regular word forest (13th cent.)?

does "forrest" differ from the regular word in tone,stress,length or all of them?

Op 12/07/2021 om 16:44 schreef S K:
> On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 8:31:52 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:25:34 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>> scribeva:
>>> ['jOrd@nvAnFOr'e:st]
>> https://nl.forvo.com/word/foreest/
>> --
>> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
> Is it related to the regular word forest (13th cent.)?

Yes, obviously. It is a later, or if not, a more conservative, borrowing
than the dutchifieder form *vorst*. The etymology of the latter is
somewhat unsure though. (There are also other etymologies of homonyms
*vorst*, monarch (~ first), and *vorst*, frost.)

There is a suburb of Brussels called *Vorst* (D.), *Forest* (F.) ~
forêt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest,_Belgium. The etymology
'wants' to let it derive from L. forestis (for which I see etymologies
*foris*, wether 'from outside' or from some royalty-privileged *forum*).
But then it explains, at least in the French wiki-page of this link, the
original name *Vorstbos(ch)* not as a "silva forestis" but as a "forest
(bos) of the prince (vorst)".

So, is *vorst* to be linked with L. *forestis* or with our *vorst*,
monarch ~ first? Or, did the medieval "silva forestis" already imply a
royal meaning for "forestis", given that such forests were the privilege
of nobility or royalty?

Worse yet, other etymo-sources want to link our *vorst* with
old-Germanic words of the L. *quercus* family ~ *fir* (trees)! See
https://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vorst4.

Who can undo this mess? Some mutual contagion in form and meaning would
not seem unlikely to me though.

> does "forrest" differ from the regular word in tone,stress,length or all of them?

Dunno of any forrest.

--

guido wugi

On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 5:09:16 PM UTC-4, wugi wrote:
> Op 12/07/2021 om 16:44 schreef S K:
> > On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 8:31:52 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:25:34 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> >> scribeva:
> >>> ['jOrd@nvAnFOr'e:st]
> >> https://nl.forvo.com/word/foreest/
> >> --
> >> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Is it related to the regular word forest (13th cent.)?
> Yes, obviously. It is a later, or if not, a more conservative, borrowing
> than the dutchifieder form *vorst*. The etymology of the latter is
> somewhat unsure though. (There are also other etymologies of homonyms
> *vorst*, monarch (~ first), and *vorst*, frost.)
>
> There is a suburb of Brussels called *Vorst* (D.), *Forest* (F.) ~
> forêt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest,_Belgium. The etymology
> 'wants' to let it derive from L. forestis (for which I see etymologies
> *foris*, wether 'from outside' or from some royalty-privileged *forum*).
> But then it explains, at least in the French wiki-page of this link, the
> original name *Vorstbos(ch)* not as a "silva forestis" but as a "forest
> (bos) of the prince (vorst)".
>
> So, is *vorst* to be linked with L. *forestis* or with our *vorst*,
> monarch ~ first? Or, did the medieval "silva forestis" already imply a
> royal meaning for "forestis", given that such forests were the privilege
> of nobility or royalty?
>
> Worse yet, other etymo-sources want to link our *vorst* with
> old-Germanic words of the L. *quercus* family ~ *fir* (trees)! See
> https://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vorst4.
>
> Who can undo this mess? Some mutual contagion in form and meaning would
> not seem unlikely to me though.
> > does "forrest" differ from the regular word in tone,stress,length or all of them?
> Dunno of any forrest.
>
>
> --
>
> guido wugi

What a bloody mess.

Wald@Grm
Woud@Dut
Hutan@Mly: forest
Sylva@Ltn
Forest
Bosque@Spn
Ndula/endura@Mbuti
Kaynta@Somali
Ghaba@Arb
Basoa, oihan@Bsq
Suma@Croat

The meaning diverges between 'in the forest' and 'out of the community, wild, dangerous'

Foster: surname from forester(?)

On 13/07/2021 3:03 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 5:09:16 PM UTC-4, wugi wrote:
>> Op 12/07/2021 om 16:44 schreef S K:
>>> On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 8:31:52 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>> Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:25:34 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>>>> scribeva:
>>>>> ['jOrd@nvAnFOr'e:st]
>>>> https://nl.forvo.com/word/foreest/
>>>> --
>>>> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is it related to the regular word forest (13th cent.)?
>> Yes, obviously. It is a later, or if not, a more conservative, borrowing
>> than the dutchifieder form *vorst*. The etymology of the latter is
>> somewhat unsure though. (There are also other etymologies of homonyms
>> *vorst*, monarch (~ first), and *vorst*, frost.)
>>
>> There is a suburb of Brussels called *Vorst* (D.), *Forest* (F.) ~
>> forêt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest,_Belgium. The etymology
>> 'wants' to let it derive from L. forestis (for which I see etymologies
>> *foris*, wether 'from outside' or from some royalty-privileged *forum*).
>> But then it explains, at least in the French wiki-page of this link, the
>> original name *Vorstbos(ch)* not as a "silva forestis" but as a "forest
>> (bos) of the prince (vorst)".
>>
>> So, is *vorst* to be linked with L. *forestis* or with our *vorst*,
>> monarch ~ first? Or, did the medieval "silva forestis" already imply a
>> royal meaning for "forestis", given that such forests were the privilege
>> of nobility or royalty?
>>
>> Worse yet, other etymo-sources want to link our *vorst* with
>> old-Germanic words of the L. *quercus* family ~ *fir* (trees)! See
>> https://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vorst4.
>>
>> Who can undo this mess? Some mutual contagion in form and meaning would
>> not seem unlikely to me though.
>>> does "forrest" differ from the regular word in tone,stress,length or all of them?
>> Dunno of any forrest.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> guido wugi
>
> What a bloody mess.
>
> Wald@Grm
> Woud@Dut
> Hutan@Mly: forest
> Sylva@Ltn
> Forest
> Bosque@Spn
> Ndula/endura@Mbuti
> Kaynta@Somali
> Ghaba@Arb
> Basoa, oihan@Bsq
> Suma@Croat
>
> The meaning diverges between 'in the forest' and 'out of the community, wild, dangerous'
>
>
> Foster: surname from forester(?)

Maybe. Or 'shearer, cutler, scissors-maker' or 'maker of saddletrees'.
Foster Lane (City, London) is none of these, but commemorates St
Vedast/Vaast, Bishop of Arras.
- Basil Cottle, Penguin Dictionary of Surnames

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 6:59:08 AM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 13/07/2021 3:03 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 5:09:16 PM UTC-4, wugi wrote:
> >> Op 12/07/2021 om 16:44 schreef S K:
> >>> On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 8:31:52 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >>>> Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:25:34 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> >>>> scribeva:
> >>>>> ['jOrd@nvAnFOr'e:st]
> >>>> https://nl.forvo.com/word/foreest/
> >>>> --
> >>>> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
> >>> Thanks.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Is it related to the regular word forest (13th cent.)?
> >> Yes, obviously. It is a later, or if not, a more conservative, borrowing
> >> than the dutchifieder form *vorst*. The etymology of the latter is
> >> somewhat unsure though. (There are also other etymologies of homonyms
> >> *vorst*, monarch (~ first), and *vorst*, frost.)
> >>
> >> There is a suburb of Brussels called *Vorst* (D.), *Forest* (F.) ~
> >> forêt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest,_Belgium. The etymology
> >> 'wants' to let it derive from L. forestis (for which I see etymologies
> >> *foris*, wether 'from outside' or from some royalty-privileged *forum*).
> >> But then it explains, at least in the French wiki-page of this link, the
> >> original name *Vorstbos(ch)* not as a "silva forestis" but as a "forest
> >> (bos) of the prince (vorst)".
> >>
> >> So, is *vorst* to be linked with L. *forestis* or with our *vorst*,
> >> monarch ~ first? Or, did the medieval "silva forestis" already imply a
> >> royal meaning for "forestis", given that such forests were the privilege
> >> of nobility or royalty?
> >>
> >> Worse yet, other etymo-sources want to link our *vorst* with
> >> old-Germanic words of the L. *quercus* family ~ *fir* (trees)! See
> >> https://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vorst4.
> >>
> >> Who can undo this mess? Some mutual contagion in form and meaning would
> >> not seem unlikely to me though.
> >>> does "forrest" differ from the regular word in tone,stress,length or all of them?
> >> Dunno of any forrest.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> guido wugi
> >
> > What a bloody mess.
> >
> > Wald@Grm
> > Woud@Dut
> > Hutan@Mly: forest
> > Sylva@Ltn
> > Forest
> > Bosque@Spn
> > Ndula/endura@Mbuti
> > Kaynta@Somali
> > Ghaba@Arb
> > Basoa, oihan@Bsq
> > Suma@Croat
> >
> > The meaning diverges between 'in the forest' and 'out of the community, wild, dangerous'
> >
> >
> > Foster: surname from forester(?)
> Maybe. Or 'shearer, cutler, scissors-maker' or 'maker of saddletrees'.
> Foster Lane (City, London) is none of these, but commemorates St
> Vedast/Vaast, Bishop of Arras.
> - Basil Cottle, Penguin Dictionary of Surnames

Ok, I was told by Jim Foster, a machinist & tool bit maker.

On 2021-07-12, wugi <brol@wugi.be> wrote:

>> Is it related to the regular word forest (13th cent.)?
>
> Yes, obviously. It is a later, or if not, a more conservative, borrowing
> than the dutchifieder form *vorst*. The etymology of the latter is
> somewhat unsure though. (There are also other etymologies of homonyms
> *vorst*, monarch (~ first), and *vorst*, frost.)

Forst, Fürst, and Frost in German, respectively.

> Worse yet, other etymo-sources want to link our *vorst* with
> old-Germanic words of the L. *quercus* family ~ *fir* (trees)! See
> https://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vorst4.

> Who can undo this mess?

Indeed, there appears to be some disagreement whether forest and
Forst are a chance resemblance or from the same etymon, and if the
latter, in which direction the loan went. Gallo-Romance could have
picked up the word from Frankish.

TLFi says the French word is from "[silva] forestis", from "forum"
(court of law), and that the early meanings of 'forest reserved for
the pleasure of the king' support this. Französisches Etymologisches
Wörterbuch suggests that the first attested meaning is 'large forest
full of game and belonging to the king' and that the restriction
to sole use by the king is clarified in the late 8th century. For
"forestis", FEW points out that it could be either from "foras"
(outside) or "forum".

> Some mutual contagion in form and meaning would not seem unlikely
> to me though.

Yes, forest < silva forestis and Forst < the "fir" family, with its
meaning shaped by the French word, is another possibility.

*throws up hands in despair*

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Op 13/07/2021 om 18:10 schreef Christian Weisgerber:
> On 2021-07-12, wugi <brol@wugi.be> wrote:
>
>>> Is it related to the regular word forest (13th cent.)?
>> Yes, obviously. It is a later, or if not, a more conservative, borrowing
>> than the dutchifieder form *vorst*. The etymology of the latter is
>> somewhat unsure though. (There are also other etymologies of homonyms
>> *vorst*, monarch (~ first), and *vorst*, frost.)
> Forst, Fürst, and Frost in German, respectively.
>
>> Worse yet, other etymo-sources want to link our *vorst* with
>> old-Germanic words of the L. *quercus* family ~ *fir* (trees)! See
>> https://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vorst4.
>> Who can undo this mess?
> Indeed, there appears to be some disagreement whether forest and
> Forst are a chance resemblance or from the same etymon, and if the
> latter, in which direction the loan went. Gallo-Romance could have
> picked up the word from Frankish.
>
> TLFi says the French word is from "[silva] forestis", from "forum"
> (court of law), and that the early meanings of 'forest reserved for
> the pleasure of the king' support this. Französisches Etymologisches
> Wörterbuch suggests that the first attested meaning is 'large forest
> full of game and belonging to the king' and that the restriction
> to sole use by the king is clarified in the late 8th century. For
> "forestis", FEW points out that it could be either from "foras"
> (outside) or "forum".
>
>> Some mutual contagion in form and meaning would not seem unlikely
>> to me though.
> Yes, forest < silva forestis and Forst < the "fir" family, with its
> meaning shaped by the French word, is another possibility.

Thank you.

> *throws up hands in despair*

Idem dictu :-)

--

guido wugi

On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 11:03:51 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 5:09:16 PM UTC-4, wugi wrote:
> > Op 12/07/2021 om 16:44 schreef S K:
> > > On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 8:31:52 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > >> Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:25:34 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> > >> scribeva:
> > >>> ['jOrd@nvAnFOr'e:st]
> > >> https://nl.forvo.com/word/foreest/
> > >> --
> > >> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Is it related to the regular word forest (13th cent.)?
> > Yes, obviously. It is a later, or if not, a more conservative, borrowing
> > than the dutchifieder form *vorst*. The etymology of the latter is
> > somewhat unsure though. (There are also other etymologies of homonyms
> > *vorst*, monarch (~ first), and *vorst*, frost.)
> >
> > There is a suburb of Brussels called *Vorst* (D.), *Forest* (F.) ~
> > forêt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest,_Belgium. The etymology
> > 'wants' to let it derive from L. forestis (for which I see etymologies
> > *foris*, wether 'from outside' or from some royalty-privileged *forum*)..
> > But then it explains, at least in the French wiki-page of this link, the
> > original name *Vorstbos(ch)* not as a "silva forestis" but as a "forest
> > (bos) of the prince (vorst)".
> >
> > So, is *vorst* to be linked with L. *forestis* or with our *vorst*,
> > monarch ~ first? Or, did the medieval "silva forestis" already imply a
> > royal meaning for "forestis", given that such forests were the privilege
> > of nobility or royalty?
> >
> > Worse yet, other etymo-sources want to link our *vorst* with
> > old-Germanic words of the L. *quercus* family ~ *fir* (trees)! See
> > https://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vorst4.
> >
> > Who can undo this mess? Some mutual contagion in form and meaning would
> > not seem unlikely to me though.
> > > does "forrest" differ from the regular word in tone,stress,length or all of them?
> > Dunno of any forrest.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > guido wugi
> What a bloody mess.
>
> Wald@Grm
> Woud@Dut
Cuautla@Azt: forest, the woods, wilds
> Hutan@Mly: forest
> Kaynta@Somali: forest
> Sylva@Ltn
> Suma@Croat
> Ghaba@Arb
All above words could derive from xyua(mb)uatlua/quatla/ghaba, probably originally referring to the transit through the woods rather than a legal/tribal definition of land area.

Bosque & dasos may link to Basque basoa, possibly via buatlua?

Ndula perhaps from (xyua)(mb/ND)UatLA = enter/interior/under canopy.
Njama means thicket. NJAMbuA.NgDUatLuA ~ thicket interior,

> Bosque@Spn
> Basoa, oihan@Bsq
Dasos@Grk

Ndula/endura@Mbuti

forest (n.)
late 13c., "extensive tree-covered district," especially one set aside for royal hunting and under the protection of the king, from Old French forest "forest, wood, woodland" (Modern French forêt), probably ultimately from Late Latin/Medieval Latin forestem silvam "the outside woods," a term from the Capitularies of Charlemagne denoting "the royal forest." This word comes to Medieval Latin, perhaps via a Germanic source akin to Old High German forst, from Latin foris "outside" (see foreign). If so, the sense is "beyond the park," the park (Latin parcus; see park (n.)) being the main or central fenced woodland.

Another theory traces it through Medieval Latin forestis, originally "forest preserve, game preserve," from Latin forum in legal sense "court, judgment;" in other words "land subject to a ban" [Buck]. Replaced Old English wudu (see wood (n.)). Spanish and Portuguese floresta have been influenced by flor "flower".

> The meaning diverges between 'in the forest' and 'out of the community, wild, dangerous'
>
>
> Foster: surname from forester(?)

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 12:30:06 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2021-07-12, wugi <br...@wugi.be> wrote:
>
> >> Is it related to the regular word forest (13th cent.)?
> >
> > Yes, obviously. It is a later, or if not, a more conservative, borrowing
> > than the dutchifieder form *vorst*. The etymology of the latter is
> > somewhat unsure though. (There are also other etymologies of homonyms
> > *vorst*, monarch (~ first), and *vorst*, frost.)
> Forst, Fürst, and Frost in German, respectively.
> > Worse yet, other etymo-sources want to link our *vorst* with
> > old-Germanic words of the L. *quercus* family ~ *fir* (trees)! See
> > https://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vorst4.
>
> > Who can undo this mess?
> Indeed, there appears to be some disagreement whether forest and
> Forst are a chance resemblance or from the same etymon, and if the
> latter, in which direction the loan went. Gallo-Romance could have
> picked up the word from Frankish.
>
> TLFi says the French word is from "[silva] forestis", from "forum"
> (court of law), and that the early meanings of 'forest reserved for
> the pleasure of the king' support this. Französisches Etymologisches
> Wörterbuch suggests that the first attested meaning is 'large forest
> full of game and belonging to the king' and that the restriction
> to sole use by the king is clarified in the late 8th century. For
> "forestis", FEW points out that it could be either from "foras"
> (outside) or "forum".
> > Some mutual contagion in form and meaning would not seem unlikely
> > to me though.
> Yes, forest < silva forestis and Forst < the "fir" family, with its
> meaning shaped by the French word, is another possibility.
>
> *throws up hands in despair*
>
> --
> Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

forest
forrest (of the gump variety)
forster
forester
forrester

and the dutch foreest.

Op 14/07/2021 om 22:16 schreef S K:
> On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 12:30:06 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> On 2021-07-12, wugi <br...@wugi.be> wrote:
>>
>>>> Is it related to the regular word forest (13th cent.)?
>>> Yes, obviously. It is a later, or if not, a more conservative, borrowing
>>> than the dutchifieder form *vorst*. The etymology of the latter is
>>> somewhat unsure though. (There are also other etymologies of homonyms
>>> *vorst*, monarch (~ first), and *vorst*, frost.)
>> Forst, Fürst, and Frost in German, respectively.
>>> Worse yet, other etymo-sources want to link our *vorst* with
>>> old-Germanic words of the L. *quercus* family ~ *fir* (trees)! See
>>> https://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vorst4.
>>> Who can undo this mess?
>> Indeed, there appears to be some disagreement whether forest and
>> Forst are a chance resemblance or from the same etymon, and if the
>> latter, in which direction the loan went. Gallo-Romance could have
>> picked up the word from Frankish.
>>
>> TLFi says the French word is from "[silva] forestis", from "forum"
>> (court of law), and that the early meanings of 'forest reserved for
>> the pleasure of the king' support this. Französisches Etymologisches
>> Wörterbuch suggests that the first attested meaning is 'large forest
>> full of game and belonging to the king' and that the restriction
>> to sole use by the king is clarified in the late 8th century. For
>> "forestis", FEW points out that it could be either from "foras"
>> (outside) or "forum".
>>> Some mutual contagion in form and meaning would not seem unlikely
>>> to me though.
>> Yes, forest < silva forestis and Forst < the "fir" family, with its
>> meaning shaped by the French word, is another possibility.
>>
>> *throws up hands in despair*
>>
>> --
>> Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
> forest
> forrest (of the gump variety)
> forster
> forester
> forrester
>
> and the dutch foreest.

and the Flemish vorst (one of them:)

--

guido wugi