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interests / sci.anthropology.paleo / Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

SubjectAuthor
* SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltI Envy JTEM
+- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
+* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltPaul Crowley
|+- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|`* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltI Envy JTEM
| `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|  `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltPaul Crowley
|   `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|    +* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltPaul Crowley
|    |`* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|    | `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|    |  `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltPaul Crowley
|    |   `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|    |    +* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|    |    |`- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|    |    `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltPaul Crowley
|    |     `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|    |      `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltPaul Crowley
|    |       `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|    |        +- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|    |        `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltPaul Crowley
|    |         +- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltI Envy JTEM
|    |         `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|    |          +- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltPaul Crowley
|    |          +- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|    |          +- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltPaul Crowley
|    |          +- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltI Envy JTEM
|    |          +- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltPaul Crowley
|    |          +- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltI Envy JTEM
|    |          `- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|    `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|     `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|      +- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salthesho...@gmail.com
|      `- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
`* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltlittor...@gmail.com
 `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltJTEM is so reasonable
  `* Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltlittor...@gmail.com
   `- Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess saltlittor...@gmail.com

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Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

<0196d168-c026-465e-b3ea-a434d7762c82n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt
From: yelwo...@gmail.com (Paul Crowley)
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 by: Paul Crowley - Fri, 8 Apr 2022 22:42 UTC

On Friday 8 April 2022 at 05:50:24 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

>>> Not necessary, since they lived along shallow crystalline streams.
>>> . .
>> The professionals have also made the subject
>> much easier -- by ruling out of existence all
>> those nasty predators.
>
> Irrelevant.
> . .
Highly relevant. Would you try to raise children
"along shallow streams" in the presence of large
dangerous predators. This is one kind of prey
animal that can cope -- it can produce 16
offspring in a litter, with frequent litters:

https://www.facebook.com/100071714702312/posts/160297796370710/?sfnsn=scwspwa

> Forgot about the elephantids with 6 years worth of salt...

Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein is a modest 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight

"Most research indicates that eating more than 2 g per kg of body weight
daily of protein for a long time can cause health problems."
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322825
> . .
So, given that, in tropical conditions, the
elephant corpse would start to rot within
a few days, how many local people could it
feed?
>> . .
>>> MV claims fur seals eccrine sweat at the rear
>>> flippers while on land exposed to sun, they also (maybe) drink seawater
>>> while in water.
>>> . .
>> Fish need to reduce the salt in the sea-
>> water that they drink. Seals probably
>> get all the fresh water they need by
>> consuming fish.
>>> . .
>> https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/water-h2o-life/life-in-water/surviving-in-salt-water
>>> . .
> Mermaids? You are saying archaic Homo got their freshwater from eating saltwater fish?
> . .
NO. I'm suggesting that seals don't need to
drink sea-water (or use special mechanisms
to remove its salt) -- they get the fresh water
they need from the fish they eat.
> . .

> Salt in sweat gets recycled while in aqueous solution. Thus the eccrines can
> indeed intake saltwater through the interstitium organ.
. .
Presumably there's some kind of pumping
mechanism that pushes the salty sweat
through filters which can remove some of
the salt. Theoretically, salty sea-water
could be sucked in, and then pushed out
again, through those filters so that the
animal got fresh water in that manner.
BUT it's not seen in nature, not in any
animal. One reason is that sea-water is
nearly always a lot colder; this tightens
all the pores on the skin, preventing the
ingress of fluid. No one will sweats in
normal sea-water. Maybe it could --
theoretically -- work in a hot sea-water
bath, or in a heated spa.
. .

>>> Salt, extraction tools, diggings.
>>>. .
>> Such evidence could be there,
.. .
> You are claiming incompetence of Berger's team?
. .
Caves with accessible salt deposits would
be relatively uncommon. I haven't seen
any reference to them in the Dinaledi
system. H.naledi used that cave for
different purposes.
. .
> All ancient salt mines contain obvious evidence, not these caves.
> . .
All identified ancient salt caves are large,
and late in the fossil record. These caves,
and others like them, are labyrinthine.
> . .
An asteroid collision ~200 ka made a
crater around 75km northwest of the
Dinaledi cave. It hammered through
to a salt layer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tswaing_crater
> . .
This event no doubt had some effect
on the local hominin population.
> . .
>>>> IF they had done what you imagine, there
>>>> would have been numerous (recently and
>>>> recorded) modern stone-age H/G tribes in
>>>> Africa living like that.
>> . .
>>> Planting and herding have dominated Africa for 1000's of years, except in
>>> the deep rainforest, the deserts, the mountains, the swampy coasts and the
>>> arid coasts, where H&G survived marginally.
>> Planting occurred only in the river valleys.
>
> Too vague, Central Africa is a river valley, like the US midwest.
> . .
Central Africa is largely high plateau -- quite
unlike the US midwest. Agricultural land
is scarce.
> . .
>> Herding was ruled out by the tsetse fly
>> until recently (<100 years).
> . .
> Tsetse flies have a preferred range. Most of Africa was not inside that range.
> . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tsetse_distribution.png

Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

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Subject: Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt
From: jte...@gmail.com (I Envy JTEM)
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 by: I Envy JTEM - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 04:10 UTC

Paul Crowley wrote:

> "Most research indicates that eating more than 2 g per kg of body weight
> daily of protein for a long time can cause health problems."

#1. Who cares? If they lived to 30 they exceeded the need.

Life expectancy in 17th century London was like 27 years, and even that
was longer than necessary to overpopulate the dump.

#2. What the hell does "Most" mean?

Clearly there's other opinions out there, it's not settled.

#3. We're different.

We're not erectus, we're certainly not habilis or anything that came earlier.
What we need or don't need isn't necessarily what our pre modern ancestors
needed.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/680945749980250112

Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

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Subject: Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt
From: yelwo...@gmail.com (Paul Crowley)
Injection-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2022 15:30:04 +0000
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 by: Paul Crowley - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 15:30 UTC

On Saturday 9 April 2022 at 05:10:44 UTC+1, I Envy JTEM wrote:

> Life expectancy in 17th century London was like 27 years, and even that
> was longer than necessary to overpopulate the dump.
.. .
Anyone so ignorant should not be on any
forum concerned with evolution (nor on
one concerned with anything else).
.. .
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20181002-how-long-did-ancient-people-live-life-span-versus-longevity

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Subject: Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt
From: jte...@gmail.com (I Envy JTEM)
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 by: I Envy JTEM - Mon, 11 Apr 2022 03:59 UTC

Paul Crowley wrote:

> Anyone so ignorant should not be on any
> forum concerned with evolution (nor on
> one concerned with anything else).
> . .
> https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20181002-how-long-did-ancient-people-live-life-span-versus-longevity

You are indeed a raging idiot, and I congratulate you for that achievement, but
if you had bothered to read your own cite for comprehension instead of
confirmation of your bias...

: In 2016, Gazzaniga published her research on more than 2,000 ancient Roman skeletons, all
: working-class people who were buried in common graves. The average age of death was 30,
: and that wasn’t a mere statistical quirk: a high number of the skeletons were around that age.

Now would you say that lifestyles differed as much for our paleo ancestors as they did in
ancient Rome? There was as much difference in labor, access to food & clothing amongst
erectus as there was moving from the Senatorial class of ancient Rome down to the most
humble plebs?

Of course that's what you're saying. Here. Right now. Because if you're not saying that then
you're an idiot who chose a "Cite" that he never bothered to read, and wouldn't have been
able to understand it anyway....

So you read your cite, you grasped it, the implications were clear to you and you understood
that it proved you were wrong. And that's why you posted it.

I'm glad we had this talk. We shared a moment. I will treasure it always. Kisses.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/680945749980250112

Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

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Subject: Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves)
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 by: DD'eDeN aka not - Thu, 14 Apr 2022 01:40 UTC

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 6:42:42 PM UTC-4, Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Friday 8 April 2022 at 05:50:24 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
>
> >>> Not necessary, since they lived along shallow crystalline streams.
> >>> . .
> >> The professionals have also made the subject
> >> much easier -- by ruling out of existence all
> >> those nasty predators.
> >
> > Irrelevant.
> > . .
> Highly relevant. Would you try to raise children
> "along shallow streams" in the presence of large
> dangerous predators.

Whole bands camp 50m from shallow streams in the Congo uplands, they are most dangerous predators on earth.
Hippos are more dangerous than lions, leopards, crocs & snakes to humans, they are not prefators, nor are African Cape buffaloes.

This is one kind of prey
> animal that can cope -- it can produce 16
> offspring in a litter, with frequent litters:
>
> https://www.facebook.com/100071714702312/posts/160297796370710/?sfnsn=scwspwa

> > Forgot about the elephantids with 6 years worth of salt...
> Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein is a modest 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight
So?
> "Most research indicates that eating more than 2 g per kg of body weight
> daily of protein for a long time can cause health problems."
> https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322825
So?
> So, given that, in tropical conditions, the
> elephant corpse would start to rot within
> a few days, how many local people could it
> feed?
Hundreds in the Congo, or in the mammoth steppe (freezing winters).
> >> . .
> >>> MV claims fur seals eccrine sweat at the rear
> >>> flippers while on land exposed to sun, they also (maybe) drink seawater
> >>> while in water.
> >>> . .
> >> Fish need to reduce the salt in the sea-
> >> water that they drink. Seals probably
> >> get all the fresh water they need by
> >> consuming fish.
> >>> . .
I'd guess most drink brackish water in harbors and from submarine springs.

> >> https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/water-h2o-life/life-in-water/surviving-in-salt-water
> >>> . .
> > Mermaids? You are saying archaic Homo got their freshwater from eating saltwater fish?
> > . .
> NO. I'm suggesting that seals don't need to
> drink sea-water (or use special mechanisms
> to remove its salt) -- they get the fresh water
> they need from the fish they eat.
> > . .
> > Salt in sweat gets recycled while in aqueous solution. Thus the eccrines can
> > indeed intake saltwater through the interstitium organ.
> . .
> Presumably there's some kind of pumping
> mechanism that pushes the salty sweat
> through filters which can remove some of
> the salt. Theoretically, salty sea-water
> could be sucked in, and then pushed out
> again, through those filters so that the
> animal got fresh water in that manner.
> BUT it's not seen in nature, not in any
> animal.

Perhaps fur seals. Sweating rear flippers (extended paws) while sunning on the beach, might conversely intake saltwater and diluteit in the body.

One reason is that sea-water is
> nearly always a lot colder; this tightens
> all the pores on the skin, preventing the
> ingress of fluid. No one will sweats in
> normal sea-water. Maybe it could --
> theoretically -- work in a hot sea-water
> bath, or in a heated spa.
> . .
Seals are arctic-adapted.

>
> >>> Salt, extraction tools, diggings.
> >>>. .
> >> Such evidence could be there,
> . .
> > You are claiming incompetence of Berger's team?
> . .
> Caves with accessible salt deposits would
> be relatively uncommon. I haven't seen
> any reference to them in the Dinaledi
> system. H.naledi used that cave for
> different purposes.
> . .
> > All ancient salt mines contain obvious evidence, not these caves.
> > . .
> All identified ancient salt caves are large,
> and late in the fossil record. These caves,
> and others like them, are labyrinthine.
> > . .
> An asteroid collision ~200 ka made a
> crater around 75km northwest of the
> Dinaledi cave. It hammered through
> to a salt layer:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tswaing_crater
> > . .
> This event no doubt had some effect
> on the local hominin population.
> > . .
No tools or salt found at dinaledi caves.

> >>>> IF they had done what you imagine, there
> >>>> would have been numerous (recently and
> >>>> recorded) modern stone-age H/G tribes in
> >>>> Africa living like that.
> >> . .
> >>> Planting and herding have dominated Africa for 1000's of years, except in
> >>> the deep rainforest, the deserts, the mountains, the swampy coasts and the
> >>> arid coasts, where H&G survived marginally.
> >> Planting occurred only in the river valleys.
> >
> > Too vague, Central Africa is a river valley, like the US midwest.
> > . .
> Central Africa is largely high plateau -- quite
> unlike the US midwest. Agricultural land
> is scarce.
> > . .
Thats the uplands. Congo is lowlands.

> >> Herding was ruled out by the tsetse fly
> >> until recently (<100 years).
> > . .
> > Tsetse flies have a preferred range. Most of Africa was not inside that range.
> > . .
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tsetse_distribution.png
That's today.

Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

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Subject: Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves)
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 by: DD'eDeN aka not - Tue, 15 Nov 2022 10:57 UTC

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 7:17:51 PM UTC-4, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 5:37:49 PM UTC-4, Paul Crowley wrote:
> > On Tuesday 29 March 2022 at 12:45:02 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> >
> > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6773238/
> > > An important point is that the absolute rate of Na reabsorption
> > > actually increased continuously with increases in sweating rate.
> > > However, the percentage of secreted Na that was reabsorbed in the
> > > duct decreased with a rise in sweating rate. That is, at the lowest
> > > sweating rate 86 ± 3% of the secreted Na was reabsorbed, while at
> > > the highest sweating rate only 65 ± 6% of Na was reabsorbed from
> > > the duct. Therefore, the faster the primary sweat travels along the
> > > duct the smaller the percentage of Na that can be reabsorbed.
> > Light sweating is effective and common
> > in H.sap. It cools the skin when it
> > evaporates and does not lose excessive
> > quantities of vital salts. It still uses
> > some (100% - 86% = 14%) which is
> > why it is not seen among fauna that
> > evolved in salt-poor habitats.
> >
> > Heavy sweating much less effective at
> > cooling. Drops of sweat that drop to
> > the ground do not cool the skin by
> > evaporation. It loses large quantities
> > of vital salts (100%-65%=35%).
> >
> > It can only have evolved in a habitat
> > with plentiful supplies of vital salts
> > and a good supply of fresh water.
> >
> > Since its commonly assumed purpose
> > of cooling is so ineffective, it would
> > seem to have had some other one:
> > such as dumping excess salts.
> Alternatively, or additionally, per Gareth Morgan, eccrine sweat glands may have been surface reverse osmotic channels which converted seawater to freshwater in the body via absorption and filtration, especially during dry season, perhaps in the Red Sea region. See "A Day at the Beach" at academia..edu where he explains and tests his hypothesis.
Better explained by Gareth on this video:
https://youtu.be/zEQr4DSeYx4

Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

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Subject: Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves)
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 by: DD'eDeN aka not - Tue, 15 Nov 2022 17:59 UTC

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:57:58 AM UTC-5, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 7:17:51 PM UTC-4, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 5:37:49 PM UTC-4, Paul Crowley wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 29 March 2022 at 12:45:02 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> > >
> > > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6773238/
> > > > An important point is that the absolute rate of Na reabsorption
> > > > actually increased continuously with increases in sweating rate.
> > > > However, the percentage of secreted Na that was reabsorbed in the
> > > > duct decreased with a rise in sweating rate. That is, at the lowest
> > > > sweating rate 86 ± 3% of the secreted Na was reabsorbed, while at
> > > > the highest sweating rate only 65 ± 6% of Na was reabsorbed from
> > > > the duct. Therefore, the faster the primary sweat travels along the
> > > > duct the smaller the percentage of Na that can be reabsorbed.
> > > Light sweating is effective and common
> > > in H.sap. It cools the skin when it
> > > evaporates and does not lose excessive
> > > quantities of vital salts. It still uses
> > > some (100% - 86% = 14%) which is
> > > why it is not seen among fauna that
> > > evolved in salt-poor habitats.
> > >
> > > Heavy sweating much less effective at
> > > cooling. Drops of sweat that drop to
> > > the ground do not cool the skin by
> > > evaporation. It loses large quantities
> > > of vital salts (100%-65%=35%).
> > >
> > > It can only have evolved in a habitat
> > > with plentiful supplies of vital salts
> > > and a good supply of fresh water.
> > >
> > > Since its commonly assumed purpose
> > > of cooling is so ineffective, it would
> > > seem to have had some other one:
> > > such as dumping excess salts.
> > Alternatively, or additionally, per Gareth Morgan, eccrine sweat glands may have been surface reverse osmotic channels which converted seawater to freshwater in the body via absorption and filtration, especially during dry season, perhaps in the Red Sea region. See "A Day at the Beach" at academia.edu where he explains and tests his hypothesis.
> Better explained by Gareth on this video:
> https://youtu.be/zEQr4DSeYx4

There is an interesting parallel regarding human sweat glands and plant pores (stomata) in leaves: in green plant photosynthesis (intake CO2 -> O2 belched out, H2O sweated out) & respiration (intake O2 x glucose in mitochondrial battery -> CO2 exhaled out + H2O + energy)

https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/basics-of-plant-respiration/

The process of respiration in plants involves using the sugars produced during photosynthesis plus oxygen to produce energy for plant growth. In many ways, respiration is the opposite of photosynthesis. In the natural environment, plants produce their own food to survive.

They use the carbon dioxide (CO2) from the environment to produce sugars and oxygen (O2), which can later be utilized as a source of energy. While photosynthesis takes place in the leaves and stems only, respiration occurs in the leaves, stems and roots of the plant. The process of respiration is represented as follows:

C6H12O6 + 6O2 → 6CO2 + 6H2O + 32 ATP (energy)

As with photosynthesis, plants get oxygen from the air through the stomata. Respiration takes place in the mitochondria of the cell in the presence of oxygen, which is called "aerobic respiration". In plants, there are two types of respiration: dark respiration and photo respiration. The first kind occurs in the presence or absence of light, while the second occurs exclusively in the presence of light.

One wonders if there might be a connection between plant breathing-eating (in opposition) and human eccrine sweating-reverse osmosis. Too early to tell...

Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

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Subject: Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt
From: heshoot...@gmail.com (hesho...@gmail.com)
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 by: hesho...@gmail.com - Tue, 15 Nov 2022 18:56 UTC

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:59:50 PM UTC-5, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:57:58 AM UTC-5, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 7:17:51 PM UTC-4, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> > > On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 5:37:49 PM UTC-4, Paul Crowley wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday 29 March 2022 at 12:45:02 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6773238/
> > > > > An important point is that the absolute rate of Na reabsorption
> > > > > actually increased continuously with increases in sweating rate.
> > > > > However, the percentage of secreted Na that was reabsorbed in the
> > > > > duct decreased with a rise in sweating rate. That is, at the lowest
> > > > > sweating rate 86 ± 3% of the secreted Na was reabsorbed, while at
> > > > > the highest sweating rate only 65 ± 6% of Na was reabsorbed from
> > > > > the duct. Therefore, the faster the primary sweat travels along the
> > > > > duct the smaller the percentage of Na that can be reabsorbed.
> > > > Light sweating is effective and common
> > > > in H.sap. It cools the skin when it
> > > > evaporates and does not lose excessive
> > > > quantities of vital salts. It still uses
> > > > some (100% - 86% = 14%) which is
> > > > why it is not seen among fauna that
> > > > evolved in salt-poor habitats.
> > > >
> > > > Heavy sweating much less effective at
> > > > cooling. Drops of sweat that drop to
> > > > the ground do not cool the skin by
> > > > evaporation. It loses large quantities
> > > > of vital salts (100%-65%=35%).
> > > >
> > > > It can only have evolved in a habitat
> > > > with plentiful supplies of vital salts
> > > > and a good supply of fresh water.
> > > >
> > > > Since its commonly assumed purpose
> > > > of cooling is so ineffective, it would
> > > > seem to have had some other one:
> > > > such as dumping excess salts.
> > > Alternatively, or additionally, per Gareth Morgan, eccrine sweat glands may have been surface reverse osmotic channels which converted seawater to freshwater in the body via absorption and filtration, especially during dry season, perhaps in the Red Sea region. See "A Day at the Beach" at academia.edu where he explains and tests his hypothesis.
> > Better explained by Gareth on this video:
> > https://youtu.be/zEQr4DSeYx4
> There is an interesting parallel regarding human sweat glands and plant pores (stomata) in leaves: in green plant photosynthesis (intake CO2 -> O2 belched out, H2O sweated out) & respiration (intake O2 x glucose in mitochondrial battery -> CO2 exhaled out + H2O + energy)
>
> https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/basics-of-plant-respiration/
>
> The process of respiration in plants involves using the sugars produced during photosynthesis plus oxygen to produce energy for plant growth. In many ways, respiration is the opposite of photosynthesis. In the natural environment, plants produce their own food to survive.
>
> They use the carbon dioxide (CO2) from the environment to produce sugars and oxygen (O2), which can later be utilized as a source of energy. While photosynthesis takes place in the leaves and stems only, respiration occurs in the leaves, stems and roots of the plant. The process of respiration is represented as follows:
>
> C6H12O6 + 6O2 → 6CO2 + 6H2O + 32 ATP (energy)
>
> As with photosynthesis, plants get oxygen from the air through the stomata. Respiration takes place in the mitochondria of the cell in the presence of oxygen, which is called "aerobic respiration". In plants, there are two types of respiration: dark respiration and photo respiration. The first kind occurs in the presence or absence of light, while the second occurs exclusively in the presence of light.
>
> One wonders if there might be a connection between plant breathing-eating (in opposition) and human eccrine sweating-reverse osmosis. Too early to tell
i sweat lots.

Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

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Subject: Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves)
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 by: DD'eDeN aka not - Tue, 15 Nov 2022 19:32 UTC

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:59:50 PM UTC-5, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:57:58 AM UTC-5, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 7:17:51 PM UTC-4, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> > > On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 5:37:49 PM UTC-4, Paul Crowley wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday 29 March 2022 at 12:45:02 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6773238/
> > > > > An important point is that the absolute rate of Na reabsorption
> > > > > actually increased continuously with increases in sweating rate.
> > > > > However, the percentage of secreted Na that was reabsorbed in the
> > > > > duct decreased with a rise in sweating rate. That is, at the lowest
> > > > > sweating rate 86 ± 3% of the secreted Na was reabsorbed, while at
> > > > > the highest sweating rate only 65 ± 6% of Na was reabsorbed from
> > > > > the duct. Therefore, the faster the primary sweat travels along the
> > > > > duct the smaller the percentage of Na that can be reabsorbed.
> > > > Light sweating is effective and common
> > > > in H.sap. It cools the skin when it
> > > > evaporates and does not lose excessive
> > > > quantities of vital salts. It still uses
> > > > some (100% - 86% = 14%) which is
> > > > why it is not seen among fauna that
> > > > evolved in salt-poor habitats.
> > > >
> > > > Heavy sweating much less effective at
> > > > cooling. Drops of sweat that drop to
> > > > the ground do not cool the skin by
> > > > evaporation. It loses large quantities
> > > > of vital salts (100%-65%=35%).
> > > >
> > > > It can only have evolved in a habitat
> > > > with plentiful supplies of vital salts
> > > > and a good supply of fresh water.
> > > >
> > > > Since its commonly assumed purpose
> > > > of cooling is so ineffective, it would
> > > > seem to have had some other one:
> > > > such as dumping excess salts.
> > > Alternatively, or additionally, per Gareth Morgan, eccrine sweat glands may have been surface reverse osmotic channels which converted seawater to freshwater in the body via absorption and filtration, especially during dry season, perhaps in the Red Sea region. See "A Day at the Beach" at academia.edu where he explains and tests his hypothesis.
> > Better explained by Gareth on this video:
> > https://youtu.be/zEQr4DSeYx4
> There is an interesting parallel regarding human sweat glands and plant pores (stomata) in leaves: in green plant photosynthesis (intake CO2 -> O2 belched out, H2O sweated out) & respiration (intake O2 x glucose in mitochondrial battery -> CO2 exhaled out + H2O + energy)
>
> https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/basics-of-plant-respiration/
>
> The process of respiration in plants involves using the sugars produced during photosynthesis plus oxygen to produce energy for plant growth. In many ways, respiration is the opposite of photosynthesis. In the natural environment, plants produce their own food to survive.
>
> They use the carbon dioxide (CO2) from the environment to produce sugars and oxygen (O2), which can later be utilized as a source of energy. While photosynthesis takes place in the leaves and stems only, respiration occurs in the leaves, stems and roots of the plant. The process of respiration is represented as follows:
>
> C6H12O6 + 6O2 → 6CO2 + 6H2O + 32 ATP (energy)
>
> As with photosynthesis, plants get oxygen from the air through the stomata. Respiration takes place in the mitochondria of the cell in the presence of oxygen, which is called "aerobic respiration". In plants, there are two types of respiration: dark respiration and photo respiration. The first kind occurs in the presence or absence of light, while the second occurs exclusively in the presence of light.
>
> One wonders if there might be a connection between plant breathing-eating (in opposition) and human eccrine sweating-reverse osmosis. Too early to tell...
___

Aldosterone vs ANP
Vasopressin vs Oxycontin
Testosterone vs Estrogen
Photosynthesis vs Photo Respiration

Atrial natriuretic peptide-induced inhibition of aldosterone secretion: a quest for mediator(s)
A Ganguly
PMID: 1355332 DOI: 10.1152/ajpendo.1992.263.2.E181
Abstract
Atrial natriuretic peptide (ANP) inhibits aldosterone secretion evoked by its physiological secretagogues by a mechanism(s) likely to involve intracellular messengers. When one examines the results of various investigations so far, this premise, although not definitive yet, seems to be supported. Therefore a brief perspective on the cellular messengers of the various secretagogues is provided before the inquiry into the possible mechanism of action of ANP. The receptors of ANP in the adrenal cells have been identified and characterized. ANP inhibits adenylate cyclase in various tissues through an inhibitory G protein, which appears to explain in part the inhibitory effect of ANP on adrenocorticotropin-induced aldosterone secretion. However, there could be other possible effects of ANP as discussed. ANP probably inhibits aldosterone secretion evoked by angiotensin II and potassium by interfering with the appropriate changes in calcium flux and cell calcium concentration, concomitants of stimulation by these secretagogues. The potential modes of these effects are probed. The role of guanosine 3',5'-cyclic monophosphate, which is increased by receptor activation of guanylate cyclase by ANP and is thought to play a major role in the biological effects of ANP in some other tissues, remains controversial in the aldosterone-lowering effect of ANP, and this is also discussed extensively in this review.

Oxytocin and vasopressin are pituitary neuropeptides that have been shown to affect social processes in mammals. Oxytocin and VP are genetic and biochemical siblings. Both originated from a single ancestral gene that produced vasotocin (1, 2). Vasotocin is found in reptiles and other vertebrates and can be measured in the mammalian fetus. OT and VP differ from vasotocin by one amino acid and from each other by two amino acids.

Vasopressin or antidiuretic hormone (ADH) or arginine vasopressin (AVP) is a nonapeptide synthesized in the hypothalamus. Science has known it to play essential roles in the control of the body's osmotic balance, blood pressure regulation, sodium homeostasis, and kidney functioning. Human vasopressin, also called antidiuretic hormone (ADH), arginine vasopressin (AVP) or argipressin,[5] is a hormone synthesized from the AVP gene as a peptide prohormone in neurons in the hypothalamus,[6] and is converted to AVP. It then travels down the axon terminating in the posterior pituitary, and is released from vesicles into the circulation in response to extracellular fluid hypertonicity (hyperosmolality). AVP has two primary functions. First, it increases the amount of solute-free water reabsorbed back into the circulation from the filtrate in the kidney tubules of the nephrons. Second, AVP constricts arterioles, which increases peripheral vascular resistance and raises arterial blood pressure.[7][8][9] A third function is possible. Some AVP may be released directly into the brain from the hypothalamus, and may play an important role in social behavior, sexual motivation and pair bonding, and maternal responses to stress.[10]

Oxytocin is a hormone that’s produced in the hypothalamus and released into the bloodstream by the pituitary gland. Its main function is to facilitate childbirth, which is one of the reasons it is called the "love drug" or "love hormone." Oxytocin both stimulates the muscles of the uterus to contract, and boosts the production of prostaglandins, which also increase uterine contractions. Women whose labor is slow to proceed are sometimes given oxytocin to speed the process. Once the baby is born, oxytocin helps to move milk from the ducts in the breast to the nipple, and foster a bond between mom and baby. Our bodies also produce oxytocin when we’re excited by our sexual partner, and when we fall in love. That’s why it has earned the nicknames, "love hormone" and "cuddle hormone." Low oxytocin levels have been linked to symptoms of depression, including postpartum depression. Researchers have been studying whether giving oxytocin in a pill or nasal spray might help to ease anxiety and depression, but so far the results have been disappointing. In part, that’s because it’s hard for this hormone to slip across the blood-brain barrier. A more promising way to boost oxytocin naturally is with exercise. [DD: Activating eccrine glands?] One study noted a jump in oxytocin levels measured in participants’ saliva after high-intensity martial arts training. Music also seems to have the ability to increase oxytocin levels, especially when people sing in a group, which adds the element of bonding. Just the simple act of touch seems boost oxytocin release. Giving someone a massage, cuddling, making love, or giving someone a hug leads to higher levels of this hormone and a greater sense of well-being. [DD: Human Language = social grooming gestures + song-breathing rhythm?] https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/oxytocin-the-love-hormone


Click here to read the complete article
Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

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Subject: Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt
From: littoral...@gmail.com (littor...@gmail.com)
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 by: littor...@gmail.com - Wed, 16 Nov 2022 15:48 UTC

Op zondag 27 maart 2022 om 23:04:42 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

> My favorite example: Rabbit ears!
> They're great for cooling. Big ears are great
> for cooling.
> They're also great for hearing but, it's their
> cooling that probably makes them so
> successful.
> Think of it. If big ears for hearing was such
> an awesome adaptation, pretty much every
> animal should have them. But if an animal
> can exploit big ears for hearing AND for cooling,
> it's more likely to stick. Right? The adaption?
> So sweating is good for cooling, yeah, but it
> literally expels water & salt. So if an animal is
> living primarily off of shellfish, filled with water
> and salt amongst other things, sweating would
> be a great adaptation...

Yes, very likely:
-palmar & volar eccrine glands (also in other primates) were important for grasping?
-the original function of our body eccrines was salt excretion?

No doubt, molluscivory was extremely imporant for archaic Homo:
huge brain, stone tools, shell engravings, pachyosteosclerosis, ear exostoses, island colonizations etc.etc.

And what do you think think of Gareth Morgan's (google) "reverse osmosis" hypothesis of human eccrines?

Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

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Subject: Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt
From: jte...@gmail.com (JTEM is so reasonable)
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 by: JTEM is so reasonabl - Thu, 17 Nov 2022 04:16 UTC

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> And what do you think think of Gareth Morgan's (google) "reverse osmosis" hypothesis of human eccrines?

Out of my area of knowledge, for certain, but it seems like it should be
so easy to test and thus prove. Does it not? Kind of steers me away
from it.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/701137037768753152

Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

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 by: littor...@gmail.com - Thu, 17 Nov 2022 10:59 UTC

Op donderdag 17 november 2022 om 05:16:09 UTC+1 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

....
> > And what do you think think of Gareth Morgan's (google) "reverse osmosis" hypothesis of human eccrines?

> Out of my area of knowledge, for certain, but it seems like it should be
> so easy to test and thus prove. Does it not? Kind of steers me away
> from it.

Yes.
AFAICS, Gareth's preliminary tests strongly support his idea, but it still needs a lot of investigations, e.g. the effects of aldosterone, ADH etc. on body eccrines.
In any case, very interesting & relevant for human evolution IMO.

Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt

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Subject: Re: SWEATING is an adaptation to expel excess salt
From: littoral...@gmail.com (littor...@gmail.com)
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 by: littor...@gmail.com - Thu, 17 Nov 2022 11:42 UTC

Op donderdag 17 november 2022 om 11:59:01 UTC+1 schreef littor...@gmail.com:
> Op donderdag 17 november 2022 om 05:16:09 UTC+1 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

Perhaps I already sent this?
https://youtu.be/zEQr4DSeYx4

> > > And what do you think think of Gareth Morgan's (google) "reverse osmosis" hypothesis of human eccrines?

> > Out of my area of knowledge, for certain, but it seems like it should be
> > so easy to test and thus prove. Does it not? Kind of steers me away from it.

> Yes.
> AFAICS, Gareth's preliminary tests strongly support his idea, but it still needs a lot of investigations, e.g. the effects of aldosterone, ADH etc. on body eccrines.
> In any case, very interesting & relevant for human evolution IMO.

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