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interests / sci.anthropology.paleo / Re: Fresh water near coast

SubjectAuthor
* Fresh water near coastPaul Crowley
+* Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
|+* Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
||`* Re: Fresh water near coastDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|| `- Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
|`* Re: Fresh water near coastPaul Crowley
| `* Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
|  `* Re: Fresh water near coastPaul Crowley
|   `* Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
|    +* Re: Fresh water near coastPaul Crowley
|    |`* Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
|    | `* Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
|    |  `* Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
|    |   `* Re: Fresh water near coastPaul Crowley
|    |    `* Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
|    |     `* Re: Fresh water near coastPaul Crowley
|    |      +- Re: Fresh water near coastI Envy JTEM
|    |      `* Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
|    |       `* Re: Fresh water near coastPaul Crowley
|    |        `- Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
|    `* Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
|     `* Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
|      `* Re: Fresh water near coastDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
|       `- Re: Fresh water near coastMario Petrinovic
`- Re: Fresh water near coastlittor...@gmail.com

1
Fresh water near coast

<af4a447b-3357-49fd-9e8a-9e1d12c57567n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Fresh water near coast
From: yelwo...@gmail.com (Paul Crowley)
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 by: Paul Crowley - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 09:49 UTC

Humans sweat a lot. Presumably their ancestors have
been much the same, possibly going right back to the
origin of the bipedal taxon after the split from chimps.

Replenishing the various salts in sweat would not have
been a problem for a coastal-living species. But where
would they have got their fresh water? No species
would evolve sweating (especially heavy sweating)
without a constant supply of fresh water.

Google "water table" "sea water", or go to
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Diagram-showing-the-relationship-between-freshwater-and-saltwater_fig1_329337045

They would have dug down (preferring to do so in
loose sandy soils) and found the water table.

Re: Fresh water near coast

<t3rlet$14n$1@sunce.iskon.hr>

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:16:14 +0200
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:16 UTC

On 21.4.2022. 11:49, Paul Crowley wrote:
> Humans sweat a lot. Presumably their ancestors have
> been much the same, possibly going right back to the
> origin of the bipedal taxon after the split from chimps.
>
> Replenishing the various salts in sweat would not have
> been a problem for a coastal-living species. But where
> would they have got their fresh water? No species
> would evolve sweating (especially heavy sweating)
> without a constant supply of fresh water.
>
> Google "water table" "sea water", or go to
> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Diagram-showing-the-relationship-between-freshwater-and-saltwater_fig1_329337045
>
> They would have dug down (preferring to do so in
> loose sandy soils) and found the water table.

You didn't see this properly. Notice how water table is high deeper
inland. Well, there is no reason why this water table shouldn't be as
high on the coast. The reason why it is lower is because at the coast it
goes out of the cliff, in the form of springs. Yes, right at the
coastline there are a lot of fresh water springs. [Notice, it isn't sea
that feeds fresh water with water, it is rain, from above that feeds it,
the larger the mountain, the more water it collects.]
In Croatia we have a lot of islands. If island doesn't have high
mountain, it has droughts. But those with high mountains don't have
droughts. I believe if mountain is something like 500 m high, then you
have a lot of springs.
Once I spent whole spring (of course, this word again, I wander if I
could make a whole sentence in English using only one word, like "Two to
two.", :). ) on some remote beach (with my friends). The shop was, like,
half an hour away, and I thought, we have everything on that beach,
there's actually no need to go to the shop. Figs were abundant around
(figs are the staple primate food, because they grow all year round),
and we had a spring of fresh water emerging out from the cliffside right
at 1 meter height, just ideal for humans to drink it. Cool, filtered (it
went through rocks, so it was filtered) fresh water, just ideal for
humans. We could just eat figs all day long, and drink that water, and
that's it.
BTW, I wrote about this something like 10 times, and nobody cares. I
believe I wrote it in discussion with you something like 3 times.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

Re: Fresh water near coast

<t3rlte$1ac$1@sunce.iskon.hr>

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:23:59 +0200
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:23 UTC

On 21.4.2022. 15:16, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 21.4.2022. 11:49, Paul Crowley wrote:
>> Humans sweat a lot.  Presumably their ancestors have
>> been much the same, possibly going right back to the
>> origin of the bipedal taxon after the split from chimps.
>>
>> Replenishing the various salts in sweat would not have
>> been a problem for a coastal-living species.  But where
>> would they have got their fresh water?  No species
>> would evolve sweating (especially heavy sweating)
>> without a constant supply of fresh water.
>>
>> Google "water table" "sea water", or go to
>> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Diagram-showing-the-relationship-between-freshwater-and-saltwater_fig1_329337045
>>
>>
>> They would have dug down (preferring to do so in
>> loose sandy soils) and found the water table.
>
>         You didn't see this properly. Notice how water table is high
> deeper inland. Well, there is no reason why this water table shouldn't
> be as high on the coast. The reason why it is lower is because at the
> coast it goes out of the cliff, in the form of springs. Yes, right at
> the coastline there are a lot of fresh water springs. [Notice, it isn't
> sea that feeds fresh water with water, it is rain, from above that feeds
> it, the larger the mountain, the more water it collects.]
>         In Croatia we have a lot of islands. If island doesn't have
> high mountain, it has droughts. But those with high mountains don't have
> droughts. I believe if mountain is something like 500 m high, then you
> have a lot of springs.
>         Once I spent whole spring (of course, this word again, I wander
> if I could make a whole sentence in English using only one word, like
> "Two to two.", :). ) on some remote beach (with my friends). The shop
> was, like, half an hour away, and I thought, we have everything on that
> beach, there's actually no need to go to the shop. Figs were abundant
> around (figs are the staple primate food, because they grow all year
> round), and we had a spring of fresh water emerging out from the
> cliffside right at 1 meter height, just ideal for humans to drink it.
> Cool, filtered (it went through rocks, so it was filtered) fresh water,
> just ideal for humans. We could just eat figs all day long, and drink
> that water, and that's it.
>         BTW, I wrote about this something like 10 times, and nobody
> cares. I believe I wrote it in discussion with you something like 3 times.

https://youtu.be/tdO3HZLDUcQ

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

Re: Fresh water near coast

<0fbf85ec-ca43-4ac2-9604-4f5268598b87n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves)
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 by: DD'eDeN aka not - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:36 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 9:24:00 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 21.4.2022. 15:16, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> > On 21.4.2022. 11:49, Paul Crowley wrote:
> >> Humans sweat a lot. Presumably their ancestors have
> >> been much the same, possibly going right back to the
> >> origin of the bipedal taxon after the split from chimps.
> >>
> >> Replenishing the various salts in sweat would not have
> >> been a problem for a coastal-living species. But where
> >> would they have got their fresh water? No species
> >> would evolve sweating (especially heavy sweating)
> >> without a constant supply of fresh water.
> >>
> >> Google "water table" "sea water", or go to
> >> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Diagram-showing-the-relationship-between-freshwater-and-saltwater_fig1_329337045
> >>
> >>
> >> They would have dug down (preferring to do so in
> >> loose sandy soils) and found the water table.
> >
> > You didn't see this properly. Notice how water table is high
> > deeper inland. Well, there is is no reason why this water table shouldn't
> > be as high on the coast. The reason why it is lower is because at the
> > coast it goes out of the cliff, in the form of springs. Yes, right at
> > the coastline there are a lot of fresh water springs. [Notice, it isn't
> > sea that feeds fresh water with water, it is rain, from above that feeds
> > it, the larger the mountain, the more water it collects.]
> > In Croatia we have a lot of islands. If island doesn't have
> > high mountain, it has droughts. But those with high mountains don't have
> > droughts. I believe if mountain is something like 500 m high, then you
> > have a lot of springs.
> > Once I spent whole spring (of course, this word again, I wander
> > if I could make a whole sentence in English using only one word, like
> > "Two to two.", :). ) on some remote beach (with my friends). The shop
> > was, like, half an hour away, and I thought, we have everything on that
> > beach, there's actually no need to go to the shop. Figs were abundant
> > around (figs are the staple primate food, because they grow all year
> > round), and we had a spring of fresh water emerging out from the
> > cliffside right at 1 meter height, just ideal for humans to drink it.
> > Cool, filtered (it went through rocks, so it was filtered) fresh water,
> > just ideal for humans. We could just eat figs all day long, and drink
> > that water, and that's it.
> > BTW, I wrote about this something like 10 times, and nobody
> > cares. I believe I wrote it in discussion with you something like 3 times.
> https://youtu.be/tdO3HZLDUcQ
>
> --
> https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
> human-e...@googlegroups.com

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=11257&catId=32360&id=3865253&ind=188&objTypeID=17

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Main-submarine-or-coastal-karst-springs-in-the-Mediterranean-Sea-after-Fleury-2005-The_fig5_270580872

Jul 2015
Eric Gilli
On the Mediterranean coast, submarine karst springs are common. Most of them are brackish and various unsuccessful attempts in France, Greece, and Italy indicate that it is impossible to diminish the salinity at the spring. Based on studies on the shores of south-eastern France and in Kefalonia (Greece), we propose a working model that explains...

Some coastal mountain ranges which accumulate seasonal rainfall/snowfall drain subsurface freshwater towards the sea. Some surfaces as terrestrial spring-fed shallow crystalline streams which feed rivers/lakes/swamps before flowing aboveground into the sea. Others pour into the sea at great depths, plumes 200m below the sea surface, where they mix with seawater. More rarely, some springs flow out of crevices just below or just above the sea surface along the shoreline, where the waters are easily gathered and consumed. Depending on the type of rock layers penetrated, springs can be saline, brackish, fresh, acidic, alkaline.

Re: Fresh water near coast

<t3sbtv$hri$1@sunce.iskon.hr>

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:39:43 +0200
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 19:39 UTC

On 21.4.2022. 20:36, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 9:24:00 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> On 21.4.2022. 15:16, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>> On 21.4.2022. 11:49, Paul Crowley wrote:
>>>> Humans sweat a lot. Presumably their ancestors have
>>>> been much the same, possibly going right back to the
>>>> origin of the bipedal taxon after the split from chimps.
>>>>
>>>> Replenishing the various salts in sweat would not have
>>>> been a problem for a coastal-living species. But where
>>>> would they have got their fresh water? No species
>>>> would evolve sweating (especially heavy sweating)
>>>> without a constant supply of fresh water.
>>>>
>>>> Google "water table" "sea water", or go to
>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Diagram-showing-the-relationship-between-freshwater-and-saltwater_fig1_329337045
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They would have dug down (preferring to do so in
>>>> loose sandy soils) and found the water table.
>>>
>>> You didn't see this properly. Notice how water table is high
>>> deeper inland. Well, there is is no reason why this water table shouldn't
>>> be as high on the coast. The reason why it is lower is because at the
>>> coast it goes out of the cliff, in the form of springs. Yes, right at
>>> the coastline there are a lot of fresh water springs. [Notice, it isn't
>>> sea that feeds fresh water with water, it is rain, from above that feeds
>>> it, the larger the mountain, the more water it collects.]
>>> In Croatia we have a lot of islands. If island doesn't have
>>> high mountain, it has droughts. But those with high mountains don't have
>>> droughts. I believe if mountain is something like 500 m high, then you
>>> have a lot of springs.
>>> Once I spent whole spring (of course, this word again, I wander
>>> if I could make a whole sentence in English using only one word, like
>>> "Two to two.", :). ) on some remote beach (with my friends). The shop
>>> was, like, half an hour away, and I thought, we have everything on that
>>> beach, there's actually no need to go to the shop. Figs were abundant
>>> around (figs are the staple primate food, because they grow all year
>>> round), and we had a spring of fresh water emerging out from the
>>> cliffside right at 1 meter height, just ideal for humans to drink it.
>>> Cool, filtered (it went through rocks, so it was filtered) fresh water,
>>> just ideal for humans. We could just eat figs all day long, and drink
>>> that water, and that's it.
>>> BTW, I wrote about this something like 10 times, and nobody
>>> cares. I believe I wrote it in discussion with you something like 3 times.
>> https://youtu.be/tdO3HZLDUcQ
>
> https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=11257&catId=32360&id=3865253&ind=188&objTypeID=17
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Main-submarine-or-coastal-karst-springs-in-the-Mediterranean-Sea-after-Fleury-2005-The_fig5_270580872
>
> Jul 2015
> Eric Gilli
> On the Mediterranean coast, submarine karst springs are common. Most of them are brackish and various unsuccessful attempts in France, Greece, and Italy indicate that it is impossible to diminish the salinity at the spring. Based on studies on the shores of south-eastern France and in Kefalonia (Greece), we propose a working model that explains...
>
> Some coastal mountain ranges which accumulate seasonal rainfall/snowfall drain subsurface freshwater towards the sea. Some surfaces as terrestrial spring-fed shallow crystalline streams which feed rivers/lakes/swamps before flowing aboveground into the sea. Others pour into the sea at great depths, plumes 200m below the sea surface, where they mix with seawater. More rarely, some springs flow out of crevices just below or just above the sea surface along the shoreline, where the waters are easily gathered and consumed. Depending on the type of rock layers penetrated, springs can be saline, brackish, fresh, acidic, alkaline.
>

I wouldn't say that this is accurate. Where mountain is high (and
there are a lot of high mountains on a rocky coast, this is that kind of
environment where earth crest folds), those high mountains collect
water. If you take a stroll on a coastline below high mountain, you will
see spring one after the other, one spring something like every 100
meters, if not less.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

Re: Fresh water near coast

<bfb68c82-a82f-4030-9258-56f04a6f5317n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
From: yelwo...@gmail.com (Paul Crowley)
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 by: Paul Crowley - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:10 UTC

On Thursday 21 April 2022 at 14:16:15 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

> You didn't see this properly. Notice how water table is high deeper
> inland. Well, there is no reason why this water table shouldn't be as
> high on the coast. The reason why it is lower is because at the coast it
> goes out of the cliff, in the form of springs. Yes, right at the
> coastline there are a lot of fresh water springs. [Notice, it isn't sea
> that feeds fresh water with water, it is rain, from above that feeds it,
> the larger the mountain, the more water it collects.]

We are living in an unusual time when the sea
often butts up against cliffs, and the world has
plenty of rias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ria

That's only applied for the past 12 Kyr or so.
Before seas began to rise (~16 ka), and since
ice-ages began 2.6 ma, most coastal areas were,
for most of the time (i.e. excluding inter-glacials),
relatively flat landscapes, with shallow seas and
low islands, or low mainland margins. (Before
2.6 ma seas were higher but there had been
long periods of stability, with relatively small
changes in sea-level.)

So what should concern us is how hominins
obtained fresh water when living in low-
profile low-elevation landscapes, with few
surface streams and rivers.

I'm saying that they must have dug down
to the fresh-water table. The closer to the
sea, and the lower the elevation, the less
they had to dig. In many places they could
find soft sandy soil.

Re: Fresh water near coast

<t3u1o7$1mk$1@sunce.iskon.hr>

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 12:58:15 +0200
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 10:58 UTC

On 22.4.2022. 0:10, Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Thursday 21 April 2022 at 14:16:15 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> You didn't see this properly. Notice how water table is high deeper
>> inland. Well, there is no reason why this water table shouldn't be as
>> high on the coast. The reason why it is lower is because at the coast it
>> goes out of the cliff, in the form of springs. Yes, right at the
>> coastline there are a lot of fresh water springs. [Notice, it isn't sea
>> that feeds fresh water with water, it is rain, from above that feeds it,
>> the larger the mountain, the more water it collects.]
>
> We are living in an unusual time when the sea
> often butts up against cliffs, and the world has
> plenty of rias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ria
>
> That's only applied for the past 12 Kyr or so.
> Before seas began to rise (~16 ka), and since
> ice-ages began 2.6 ma, most coastal areas were,
> for most of the time (i.e. excluding inter-glacials),
> relatively flat landscapes, with shallow seas and
> low islands, or low mainland margins. (Before
> 2.6 ma seas were higher but there had been
> long periods of stability, with relatively small
> changes in sea-level.)
>
> So what should concern us is how hominins
> obtained fresh water when living in low-
> profile low-elevation landscapes, with few
> surface streams and rivers.
>
> I'm saying that they must have dug down
> to the fresh-water table. The closer to the
> sea, and the lower the elevation, the less
> they had to dig. In many places they could
> find soft sandy soil.

By that time people already had stone tools. Hand axe was used for
digging (says me).
But, this time period isn't a problem, people evolved before that. You
know, Australopithecus is already evolved biped. Actually, as you should
know, we had completely evolved biped on Crete, 5.7 mya. And human-like
fossils going back all the way to 9.6 mya (Ouranopithecus).
First, the higher the mountain, the bigger the chance that spring will
be above sea level.
The second thing, the bigger the precipitation, the bigger the chance
to have fresh water everywhere.
Third thing, the higher the temp, the bigger the precipitation.
Are you following me?

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

Re: Fresh water near coast

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Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
From: yelwo...@gmail.com (Paul Crowley)
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 by: Paul Crowley - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:21 UTC

On Friday 22 April 2022 at 11:58:16 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

>> I'm saying that they must have dug down
>> to the fresh-water table. The closer to the
>> sea, and the lower the elevation, the less
>> they had to dig. In many places they could
>> find soft sandy soil.
>
> By that time people already had stone tools. Hand axe was used for
> digging (says me).

"Hand-axes" varied enormously in size. They
are found in vast quantities in water-courses
nearly always with sharp edges, showing
that they had not been used for any kind
of rough handling.

https://twitter.com/MartaMLahr/status/1513573362160840704

> But, this time period isn't a problem, people evolved before that.

Agreed. But IMO they didn't change their
core niche --- which was coastal. They were
often on off-shore islands (the only way to
avoid predation on their slow-growing
children).

> You know, Australopithecus is already evolved biped.

> Actually, as you should know, we had completely evolved biped on Crete,
> 5.7 mya. And human-like fossils going back all the way to 9.6 mya
> (Ouranopithecus).

Dubiously bipedal, Very unlikely to be ancestral.

> First, the higher the mountain, the bigger the chance that spring will
> be above sea level.
> The second thing, the bigger the precipitation, the bigger the chance
> to have fresh water everywhere.
> Third thing, the higher the temp, the bigger the precipitation.
> Are you following me?

For the past 2.6 Myr, coasts have usually been
a long way from mountains -- and even cliffs.
Take a look at a map of the Adriatic in an
ice-age. If any hominins lived on cliffs, they
would have had difficulty getting salt, and
would not have evolved sweating (or they
would have lost the capacity to sweat if
they had it to start with).

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1040618220306285-gr1.jpg

Re: Fresh water near coast

<t3v9b0$v52$1@sunce.iskon.hr>

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 00:13:52 +0200
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 22:13 UTC

On 22.4.2022. 22:21, Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Friday 22 April 2022 at 11:58:16 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>
>>> I'm saying that they must have dug down
>>> to the fresh-water table. The closer to the
>>> sea, and the lower the elevation, the less
>>> they had to dig. In many places they could
>>> find soft sandy soil.
>>
>> By that time people already had stone tools. Hand axe was used for
>> digging (says me).
>
> "Hand-axes" varied enormously in size. They
> are found in vast quantities in water-courses
> nearly always with sharp edges, showing
> that they had not been used for any kind
> of rough handling.
>
> https://twitter.com/MartaMLahr/status/1513573362160840704

Humans vary in size, too. From little children to strong adults.
Digging soil is about the least rough thing a tool can do.

>> But, this time period isn't a problem, people evolved before that.
>
> Agreed. But IMO they didn't change their
> core niche --- which was coastal. They were
> often on off-shore islands (the only way to
> avoid predation on their slow-growing
> children).

How many times do I have to tell you, humans don't have predators in
sea. Sharks don't eat terrestrial flesh, salty crocodiles need to live
near fresh water (for breading). Terrestrial predators are useless in
water (except sabre toothed cats, of course, but I wouldn't say that
they are adapted to sea). The only predators should be raptor birds. We
had hyraxes to warn us about them (the alarm call of hyraxes is about
the most scary sound to humans). We also have prominent brow ridges and
eyebrows which help us looking at the sun (those birds attack from the
direction of sun), just like hyraxes have eyes adapted to look at the
sun. Plus, those birds nestle on cliffs, and we are experts in climbing
cliffs, our young men are brave, and they prove their bravery by
climbing up on the cliff, destroying raptor bird's nest, and coming back
with a feather of a raptor bird in their hair.

>> You know, Australopithecus is already evolved biped.
>
>> Actually, as you should know, we had completely evolved biped on Crete,
>> 5.7 mya. And human-like fossils going back all the way to 9.6 mya
>> (Ouranopithecus).
>
> Dubiously bipedal, Very unlikely to be ancestral.
>
>> First, the higher the mountain, the bigger the chance that spring will
>> be above sea level.
>> The second thing, the bigger the precipitation, the bigger the chance
>> to have fresh water everywhere.
>> Third thing, the higher the temp, the bigger the precipitation.
>> Are you following me?
>
> For the past 2.6 Myr, coasts have usually been
> a long way from mountains -- and even cliffs.
> Take a look at a map of the Adriatic in an
> ice-age. If any hominins lived on cliffs, they
> would have had difficulty getting salt, and
> would not have evolved sweating (or they
> would have lost the capacity to sweat if
> they had it to start with).
>
> https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1040618220306285-gr1.jpg

Of course they didn't live at the Adriatic sea at that time. But to
claim that there were no places to live would be too much. Greece,
Turkey, Italy, Spain, of course there were a lot of rocky coasts back then.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

Re: Fresh water near coast

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Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
From: yelwo...@gmail.com (Paul Crowley)
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 by: Paul Crowley - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 22:58 UTC

On Friday 22 April 2022 at 23:13:53 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

>> For the past 2.6 Myr, coasts have usually been
>> a long way from mountains -- and even cliffs.
>> Take a look at a map of the Adriatic in an
>> ice-age. If any hominins lived on cliffs, they
>> would have had difficulty getting salt, and
>> would not have evolved sweating (or they
>> would have lost the capacity to sweat if
>> they had it to start with).
>>
>> https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1040618220306285-gr1.jpg
>
> Of course they didn't live at the Adriatic sea at that time.

The Adriatic is exactly the kind of space
they lived in -- the land would be fertile
with plenty of trees, shrubs and grassland.
But it would be pretty flat. No hills, few
cliffs, few rocky coasts.

> But to claim that there were no places to live would be too much.
> Greece, Turkey, Italy, Spain, of course there were a lot of rocky coasts
> back then.

Rocky coasts were rare --- too rare to provide
a viable habitat for a species.

Go into Google Earth. Select a coastline
that you'd expect to be rocky -- in Greece,
Turkey, Italy, Spain -- go down (or up) so
the scale bar on the left is about 1 km.
Move the cursor along the coast to see
the depth. It will be nearly always be
shallow --indicating sand or mud

Re: Fresh water near coast

<t3vc51$1ct$1@sunce.iskon.hr>

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
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Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 23:01 UTC

On 23.4.2022. 0:13, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 22.4.2022. 22:21, Paul Crowley wrote:
>> On Friday 22 April 2022 at 11:58:16 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>
>>>> I'm saying that they must have dug down
>>>> to the fresh-water table. The closer to the
>>>> sea, and the lower the elevation, the less
>>>> they had to dig. In many places they could
>>>> find soft sandy soil.
>>>
>>> By that time people already had stone tools. Hand axe was used for
>>> digging (says me).
>>
>> "Hand-axes" varied enormously in size.  They
>> are found in vast quantities in water-courses
>> nearly always with sharp edges, showing
>> that they had not been used for any kind
>> of rough handling.
>>
>> https://twitter.com/MartaMLahr/status/1513573362160840704
>
>         Humans vary in size, too. From little children to strong
> adults. Digging soil is about the least rough thing a tool can do.
>
>>> But, this time period isn't a problem, people evolved before that.
>>
>> Agreed.  But IMO they didn't change their
>> core niche --- which was coastal.  They were
>> often on off-shore islands (the only way to
>> avoid predation on their slow-growing
>> children).
>
>         How many times do I have to tell you, humans don't have
> predators in sea. Sharks don't eat terrestrial flesh, salty crocodiles
> need to live near fresh water (for breading). Terrestrial predators are
> useless in water (except sabre toothed cats, of course, but I wouldn't
> say that they are adapted to sea). The only predators should be raptor
> birds. We had hyraxes to warn us about them (the alarm call of hyraxes
> is about the most scary sound to humans). We also have prominent brow
> ridges and eyebrows which help us looking at the sun (those birds attack
> from the direction of sun), just like hyraxes have eyes adapted to look
> at the sun. Plus, those birds nestle on cliffs, and we are experts in
> climbing cliffs, our young men are brave, and they prove their bravery
> by climbing up on the cliff, destroying raptor bird's nest, and coming
> back with a feather of a raptor bird in their hair.
>
>>> You know, Australopithecus is already evolved biped.
>>
>>> Actually, as you should know, we had completely evolved biped on Crete,
>>> 5.7 mya. And human-like fossils going back all the way to 9.6 mya
>>> (Ouranopithecus).
>>
>> Dubiously bipedal, Very unlikely to be ancestral.
>>
>>> First, the higher the mountain, the bigger the chance that spring will
>>> be above sea level.
>>> The second thing, the bigger the precipitation, the bigger the chance
>>> to have fresh water everywhere.
>>> Third thing, the higher the temp, the bigger the precipitation.
>>> Are you following me?
>>
>> For the past 2.6 Myr, coasts have usually been
>> a long way from mountains -- and even cliffs.
>> Take a look at a map of the Adriatic in an
>> ice-age.  If any hominins lived on cliffs, they
>> would have had difficulty getting salt, and
>> would not have evolved sweating (or they
>> would have lost the capacity to sweat if
>> they had it to start with).
>>
>> https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1040618220306285-gr1.jpg
>
>         Of course they didn't live at the Adriatic sea at that time.
> But to claim that there were no places to live would be too much.
> Greece, Turkey, Italy, Spain, of course there were a lot of rocky coasts
> back then.

And regarding Ouranopithecus, it is *very* similar to Graecopithecus,
which is in our ancestral line:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils#Late_Miocene_(7.2%E2%80%935.5_million_years_old)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graecopithecus#Re-examination_and_reinterpretation

As far as I know, Ouranopithecus lived in the same ecological niche as
Graecopithecus, this niche is different than ape niche, and, out of all
apes, liveable only for humans. This is niche of "impoverished" ecology,
completely unsuitable for other apes, which need very rich ecology. It
isn't strange that it is *very* similar to Graecopithecus, although
placed in separate taxon. The placement in separate taxon doesn't
exclude similarity. Plus, it is placed in separate taxon only after the
emergence of Trachilos footprints. So, there was a strong pressure to
place it in different taxon, since Trachilos footprints undoubtedly
place Graecopithecus into our taxon (which means, after Homo-chimp
split), and if Ouranopithecus is the same as Gaecopithecus, then
Homo-chimp split would be much earlier than the popular genetic clock
suggests, so, the separation of Graecopithecus from Ouranopithecus
*obviously* was a forced one, one of doubtful motives (the motive,
obviously, was to not place Homo-chimp split too early, :), which is
shameful, just as a lot of things in this science is also shameful,
nothing new).

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Re: Fresh water near coast

<t3vdvt$2pn$1@sunce.iskon.hr>

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 01:33:18 +0200
Organization: Iskon Internet d.d.
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 23:33 UTC

On 23.4.2022. 0:58, Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Friday 22 April 2022 at 23:13:53 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>> For the past 2.6 Myr, coasts have usually been
>>> a long way from mountains -- and even cliffs.
>>> Take a look at a map of the Adriatic in an
>>> ice-age. If any hominins lived on cliffs, they
>>> would have had difficulty getting salt, and
>>> would not have evolved sweating (or they
>>> would have lost the capacity to sweat if
>>> they had it to start with).
>>>
>>> https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1040618220306285-gr1.jpg
>>
>> Of course they didn't live at the Adriatic sea at that time.
>
> The Adriatic is exactly the kind of space
> they lived in -- the land would be fertile
> with plenty of trees, shrubs and grassland.
> But it would be pretty flat. No hills, few
> cliffs, few rocky coasts.
>
>> But to claim that there were no places to live would be too much.
>> Greece, Turkey, Italy, Spain, of course there were a lot of rocky coasts
>> back then.
>
> Rocky coasts were rare --- too rare to provide
> a viable habitat for a species.
>
> Go into Google Earth. Select a coastline
> that you'd expect to be rocky -- in Greece,
> Turkey, Italy, Spain -- go down (or up) so
> the scale bar on the left is about 1 km.
> Move the cursor along the coast to see
> the depth. It will be nearly always be
> shallow --indicating sand or mud

Oh, this isn't a good representation. Find in YouTube videos of sea
kayaking. Those sea cliffs form at the coastline, those aren't cliffs
that are formed by tectonics (like rift cliffs), but by action of sea
currents.
For example, see that all those "shallowly" hills are folded, and
those folds protrude into sea, so, the coastline isn't like a straight
line, but it is wavy. Well, all those tips which protrude into sea can
be eroded by the force of sea currents, this is how coastline forms. So,
you can have intermittently, cliffs (which are eroded tips), and shallow
coves. So, cliff - shallow cove - cliff - shallow cove.
See Sydney:
https://youtu.be/cO59-P6dXh8

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Re: Fresh water near coast

<t3veql$3e7$1@sunce.iskon.hr>

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 01:47:34 +0200
Organization: Iskon Internet d.d.
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 23:47 UTC

On 23.4.2022. 1:33, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 23.4.2022. 0:58, Paul Crowley wrote:
>> On Friday 22 April 2022 at 23:13:53 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>> For the past 2.6 Myr, coasts have usually been
>>>> a long way from mountains -- and even cliffs.
>>>> Take a look at a map of the Adriatic in an
>>>> ice-age. If any hominins lived on cliffs, they
>>>> would have had difficulty getting salt, and
>>>> would not have evolved sweating (or they
>>>> would have lost the capacity to sweat if
>>>> they had it to start with).
>>>>
>>>> https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1040618220306285-gr1.jpg
>>>
>>> Of course they didn't live at the Adriatic sea at that time.
>>
>> The Adriatic is exactly the kind of space
>> they lived in -- the land would be fertile
>> with plenty of trees, shrubs and grassland.
>> But it would be pretty flat.  No hills, few
>> cliffs, few rocky coasts.
>>
>>> But to claim that there were no places to live would be too much.
>>> Greece, Turkey, Italy, Spain, of course there were a lot of rocky coasts
>>> back then.
>>
>> Rocky coasts were rare --- too rare to provide
>> a viable habitat for a species.
>>
>> Go into Google Earth.  Select a coastline
>> that you'd expect to be rocky -- in Greece,
>> Turkey,  Italy, Spain -- go down (or up) so
>> the scale bar on the left is about 1 km.
>> Move the cursor along the coast to see
>> the depth. It will be nearly always be
>> shallow --indicating sand or mud
>
>         Oh, this isn't a good representation. Find in YouTube videos of
> sea kayaking. Those sea cliffs form at the coastline, those aren't
> cliffs that are formed by tectonics (like rift cliffs), but by action of
> sea currents.
>         For example, see that all those "shallowly" hills are folded,
> and those folds protrude into sea, so, the coastline isn't like a
> straight line, but it is wavy. Well, all those tips which protrude into
> sea can be eroded by the force of sea currents, this is how coastline
> forms. So, you can have intermittently, cliffs (which are eroded tips),
> and shallow coves. So, cliff - shallow cove - cliff - shallow cove.
>         See Sydney:
> https://youtu.be/cO59-P6dXh8

This picture shows what I am talking about:
https://opentextbc.ca/geology/chapter/17-2-landforms-of-coastal-erosion/

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Re: Fresh water near coast

<t3vevb$3e7$2@sunce.iskon.hr>

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 01:50:05 +0200
Organization: Iskon Internet d.d.
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 23:50 UTC

On 23.4.2022. 1:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 23.4.2022. 1:33, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> On 23.4.2022. 0:58, Paul Crowley wrote:
>>> On Friday 22 April 2022 at 23:13:53 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>> For the past 2.6 Myr, coasts have usually been
>>>>> a long way from mountains -- and even cliffs.
>>>>> Take a look at a map of the Adriatic in an
>>>>> ice-age. If any hominins lived on cliffs, they
>>>>> would have had difficulty getting salt, and
>>>>> would not have evolved sweating (or they
>>>>> would have lost the capacity to sweat if
>>>>> they had it to start with).
>>>>>
>>>>> https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1040618220306285-gr1.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Of course they didn't live at the Adriatic sea at that time.
>>>
>>> The Adriatic is exactly the kind of space
>>> they lived in -- the land would be fertile
>>> with plenty of trees, shrubs and grassland.
>>> But it would be pretty flat.  No hills, few
>>> cliffs, few rocky coasts.
>>>
>>>> But to claim that there were no places to live would be too much.
>>>> Greece, Turkey, Italy, Spain, of course there were a lot of rocky
>>>> coasts
>>>> back then.
>>>
>>> Rocky coasts were rare --- too rare to provide
>>> a viable habitat for a species.
>>>
>>> Go into Google Earth.  Select a coastline
>>> that you'd expect to be rocky -- in Greece,
>>> Turkey,  Italy, Spain -- go down (or up) so
>>> the scale bar on the left is about 1 km.
>>> Move the cursor along the coast to see
>>> the depth. It will be nearly always be
>>> shallow --indicating sand or mud
>>
>>          Oh, this isn't a good representation. Find in YouTube videos
>> of sea kayaking. Those sea cliffs form at the coastline, those aren't
>> cliffs that are formed by tectonics (like rift cliffs), but by action
>> of sea currents.
>>          For example, see that all those "shallowly" hills are folded,
>> and those folds protrude into sea, so, the coastline isn't like a
>> straight line, but it is wavy. Well, all those tips which protrude
>> into sea can be eroded by the force of sea currents, this is how
>> coastline forms. So, you can have intermittently, cliffs (which are
>> eroded tips), and shallow coves. So, cliff - shallow cove - cliff -
>> shallow cove.
>>          See Sydney:
>> https://youtu.be/cO59-P6dXh8
>
>         This picture shows what I am talking about:
> https://opentextbc.ca/geology/chapter/17-2-landforms-of-coastal-erosion/

Oops, the very last picture on this page (I thought that the link will
present only the picture).

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Re: Fresh water near coast

<t3vidm$642$1@sunce.iskon.hr>

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 02:48:55 +0200
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 00:48 UTC

On 23.4.2022. 1:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 23.4.2022. 0:13, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> On 22.4.2022. 22:21, Paul Crowley wrote:
>>> On Friday 22 April 2022 at 11:58:16 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I'm saying that they must have dug down
>>>>> to the fresh-water table. The closer to the
>>>>> sea, and the lower the elevation, the less
>>>>> they had to dig. In many places they could
>>>>> find soft sandy soil.
>>>>
>>>> By that time people already had stone tools. Hand axe was used for
>>>> digging (says me).
>>>
>>> "Hand-axes" varied enormously in size.  They
>>> are found in vast quantities in water-courses
>>> nearly always with sharp edges, showing
>>> that they had not been used for any kind
>>> of rough handling.
>>>
>>> https://twitter.com/MartaMLahr/status/1513573362160840704
>>
>>          Humans vary in size, too. From little children to strong
>> adults. Digging soil is about the least rough thing a tool can do.
>>
>>>> But, this time period isn't a problem, people evolved before that.
>>>
>>> Agreed.  But IMO they didn't change their
>>> core niche --- which was coastal.  They were
>>> often on off-shore islands (the only way to
>>> avoid predation on their slow-growing
>>> children).
>>
>>          How many times do I have to tell you, humans don't have
>> predators in sea. Sharks don't eat terrestrial flesh, salty crocodiles
>> need to live near fresh water (for breading). Terrestrial predators
>> are useless in water (except sabre toothed cats, of course, but I
>> wouldn't say that they are adapted to sea). The only predators should
>> be raptor birds. We had hyraxes to warn us about them (the alarm call
>> of hyraxes is about the most scary sound to humans). We also have
>> prominent brow ridges and eyebrows which help us looking at the sun
>> (those birds attack from the direction of sun), just like hyraxes have
>> eyes adapted to look at the sun. Plus, those birds nestle on cliffs,
>> and we are experts in climbing cliffs, our young men are brave, and
>> they prove their bravery by climbing up on the cliff, destroying
>> raptor bird's nest, and coming back with a feather of a raptor bird in
>> their hair.
>>
>>>> You know, Australopithecus is already evolved biped.
>>>
>>>> Actually, as you should know, we had completely evolved biped on Crete,
>>>> 5.7 mya. And human-like fossils going back all the way to 9.6 mya
>>>> (Ouranopithecus).
>>>
>>> Dubiously bipedal, Very unlikely to be ancestral.
>>>
>>>> First, the higher the mountain, the bigger the chance that spring will
>>>> be above sea level.
>>>> The second thing, the bigger the precipitation, the bigger the chance
>>>> to have fresh water everywhere.
>>>> Third thing, the higher the temp, the bigger the precipitation.
>>>> Are you following me?
>>>
>>> For the past 2.6 Myr, coasts have usually been
>>> a long way from mountains -- and even cliffs.
>>> Take a look at a map of the Adriatic in an
>>> ice-age.  If any hominins lived on cliffs, they
>>> would have had difficulty getting salt, and
>>> would not have evolved sweating (or they
>>> would have lost the capacity to sweat if
>>> they had it to start with).
>>>
>>> https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1040618220306285-gr1.jpg
>>
>>          Of course they didn't live at the Adriatic sea at that time.
>> But to claim that there were no places to live would be too much.
>> Greece, Turkey, Italy, Spain, of course there were a lot of rocky
>> coasts back then.
>
>         And regarding Ouranopithecus, it is *very* similar to
> Graecopithecus, which is in our ancestral line:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils#Late_Miocene_(7.2%E2%80%935.5_million_years_old)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graecopithecus#Re-examination_and_reinterpretation
>
>
>         As far as I know, Ouranopithecus lived in the same ecological
> niche as Graecopithecus, this niche is different than ape niche, and,
> out of all apes, liveable only for humans. This is niche of
> "impoverished" ecology, completely unsuitable for other apes, which need
> very rich ecology. It isn't strange that it is *very* similar to
> Graecopithecus, although placed in separate taxon. The placement in
> separate taxon doesn't exclude similarity. Plus, it is placed in
> separate taxon only after the emergence of Trachilos footprints. So,
> there was a strong pressure to place it in different taxon, since
> Trachilos footprints undoubtedly place Graecopithecus into our taxon
> (which means, after Homo-chimp split), and if Ouranopithecus is the same
> as Gaecopithecus, then Homo-chimp split would be much earlier than the
> popular genetic clock suggests, so, the separation of Graecopithecus
> from Ouranopithecus *obviously* was a forced one, one of doubtful
> motives (the motive, obviously, was to not place Homo-chimp split too
> early, :), which is shameful, just as a lot of things in this science is
> also shameful, nothing new).

And also, the "impoverished" environment of Ouranopithecus and
Graecopithecus was created after "Vallesian crisis", 9.6 mya, by the way
of fire, at exactly the same places Graecopithecus and Ouranopithecus
were found. And, look at that, humans are the prime users of fire. Now,
who would say so?
Also, the question is, why then, why 9.6 mya? Why not 150 mya, why not
140 mya, why not 40 mya, why not 35 mya, why not 25 mya, why not 265
mya? So, why we have it 9.6 mya? What's wrong with 9.6 mya? Up till then
the whole world was forested, so why 9.6 mya? And humans are the prime
users of fire, and deforestation was made by the way of fire, and ...,
and ...
So, the real question here is how no human scientist can make a
connection here, this is the *real* question. He doesn't even have to
claim that this was because of humans, but, for sure, he has to say that
there is a strong possibility that it could be humans. But no, I see no
references anywhere, anywhen, by anybody. Not even close to that.
So, the actual question is, not what's wrong with 9.6 mya, but what's
wrong with those bloody *stupid* humans, who think that they are the
smartest things in the Universe.

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Re: Fresh water near coast

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Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
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 by: DD'eDeN aka not - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 03:03 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 8:48:56 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 23.4.2022. 1:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> > On 23.4.2022. 0:13, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >> On 22.4.2022. 22:21, Paul Crowley wrote:
> >>> On Friday 22 April 2022 at 11:58:16 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> I'm saying that they must have dug down
> >>>>> to the fresh-water table. The closer to the
> >>>>> sea, and the lower the elevation, the less
> >>>>> they had to dig. In many places they could
> >>>>> find soft sandy soil.
> >>>>
> >>>> By that time people already had stone tools. Hand axe was used for
> >>>> digging (says me).
> >>>
> >>> "Hand-axes" varied enormously in size. They
> >>> are found in vast quantities in water-courses
> >>> nearly always with sharp edges, showing
> >>> that they had not been used for any kind
> >>> of rough handling.
> >>>
> >>> https://twitter.com/MartaMLahr/status/1513573362160840704
> >>
> >> Humans vary in size, too. From little children to strong
> >> adults. Digging soil is about the least rough thing a tool can do.
> >>
> >>>> But, this time period isn't a problem, people evolved before that.
> >>>
> >>> Agreed. But IMO they didn't change their
> >>> core niche --- which was coastal. They were
> >>> often on off-shore islands (the only way to
> >>> avoid predation on their slow-growing
> >>> children).
> >>
> >> How many times do I have to tell you, humans don't have
> >> predators in sea. Sharks don't eat terrestrial flesh, salty crocodiles
> >> need to live near fresh water (for breading). Terrestrial predators
> >> are useless in water (except sabre toothed cats, of course, but I
> >> wouldn't say that they are adapted to sea). The only predators should
> >> be raptor birds. We had hyraxes to warn us about them (the alarm call
> >> of hyraxes is about the most scary sound to humans). We also have
> >> prominent brow ridges and eyebrows which help us looking at the sun
> >> (those birds attack from the direction of sun), just like hyraxes have
> >> eyes adapted to look at the sun. Plus, those birds nestle on cliffs,
> >> and we are experts in climbing cliffs, our young men are brave, and
> >> they prove their bravery by climbing up on the cliff, destroying
> >> raptor bird's nest, and coming back with a feather of a raptor bird in
> >> their hair.
> >>
> >>>> You know, Australopithecus is already evolved biped.
> >>>
> >>>> Actually, as you should know, we had completely evolved biped on Crete,
> >>>> 5.7 mya. And human-like fossils going back all the way to 9.6 mya
> >>>> (Ouranopithecus).
> >>>
> >>> Dubiously bipedal, Very unlikely to be ancestral.
> >>>
> >>>> First, the higher the mountain, the bigger the chance that spring will
> >>>> be above sea level.
> >>>> The second thing, the bigger the precipitation, the bigger the chance
> >>>> to have fresh water everywhere.
> >>>> Third thing, the higher the temp, the bigger the precipitation.
> >>>> Are you following me?
> >>>
> >>> For the past 2.6 Myr, coasts have usually been
> >>> a long way from mountains -- and even cliffs.
> >>> Take a look at a map of the Adriatic in an
> >>> ice-age. If any hominins lived on cliffs, they
> >>> would have had difficulty getting salt, and
> >>> would not have evolved sweating (or they
> >>> would have lost the capacity to sweat if
> >>> they had it to start with).
> >>>
> >>> https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1040618220306285-gr1.jpg
> >>
> >> Of course they didn't live at the Adriatic sea at that time.
> >> But to claim that there were no places to live would be too much.
> >> Greece, Turkey, Italy, Spain, of course there were a lot of rocky
> >> coasts back then.
> >
> > And regarding Ouranopithecus, it is *very* similar to
> > Graecopithecus, which is in our ancestral line:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils#Late_Miocene_(7.2%E2%80%935.5_million_years_old)
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graecopithecus#Re-examination_and_reinterpretation
> >
> >
> > As far as I know, Ouranopithecus lived in the same ecological
> > niche as Graecopithecus, this niche is different than ape niche, and,
> > out of all apes, liveable only for humans. This is niche of
> > "impoverished" ecology, completely unsuitable for other apes, which need
> > very rich ecology. It isn't strange that it is *very* similar to
> > Graecopithecus, although placed in separate taxon. The placement in
> > separate taxon doesn't exclude similarity. Plus, it is placed in
> > separate taxon only after the emergence of Trachilos footprints. So,
> > there was a strong pressure to place it in different taxon, since
> > Trachilos footprints undoubtedly place Graecopithecus into our taxon
> > (which means, after Homo-chimp split), and if Ouranopithecus is the same
> > as Gaecopithecus, then Homo-chimp split would be much earlier than the
> > popular genetic clock suggests, so, the separation of Graecopithecus
> > from Ouranopithecus *obviously* was a forced one, one of doubtful
> > motives (the motive, obviously, was to not place Homo-chimp split too
> > early, :), which is shameful, just as a lot of things in this science is
> > also shameful, nothing new).
> And also, the "impoverished" environment of Ouranopithecus and
> Graecopithecus was created after "Vallesian crisis", 9.6 mya, by the way
> of fire, at exactly the same places Graecopithecus and Ouranopithecus
> were found. And, look at that, humans are the prime users of fire. Now,
> who would say so?
> Also, the question is, why then, why 9.6 mya? Why not 150 mya, why not
> 140 mya, why not 40 mya, why not 35 mya, why not 25 mya, why not 265
> mya? So, why we have it 9.6 mya? What's wrong with 9.6 mya? Up till then
> the whole world was forested, so why 9.6 mya? And humans are the prime
> users of fire, and deforestation was made by the way of fire, and ...,
> and ...
> So, the real question here is how no human scientist can make a
> connection here, this is the *real* question. He doesn't even have to
> claim that this was because of humans, but, for sure, he has to say that
> there is a strong possibility that it could be humans. But no, I see no
> references anywhere, anywhen, by anybody. Not even close to that.
> So, the actual question is, not what's wrong with 9.6 mya, but what's
> wrong with those bloody *stupid* humans, who think that they are the
> smartest things in the Universe.
>
> --
> https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
> human-e...@googlegroups.com

Unlike previous analyses, which observed an abrupt extinction at the Lower/Upper Vallesian boundary, our results show that this pattern actually results from uneven sampling. We rather propose a slow decrease in taxonomic richness from the Upper Vallesian, the consequence of a series of extinctions affecting, in priority, forest species.

Re: Fresh water near coast

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 10:22:39 +0200
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 08:22 UTC

On 23.4.2022. 5:03, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 8:48:56 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> On 23.4.2022. 1:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>> On 23.4.2022. 0:13, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>> On 22.4.2022. 22:21, Paul Crowley wrote:
>>>>> On Friday 22 April 2022 at 11:58:16 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm saying that they must have dug down
>>>>>>> to the fresh-water table. The closer to the
>>>>>>> sea, and the lower the elevation, the less
>>>>>>> they had to dig. In many places they could
>>>>>>> find soft sandy soil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By that time people already had stone tools. Hand axe was used for
>>>>>> digging (says me).
>>>>>
>>>>> "Hand-axes" varied enormously in size. They
>>>>> are found in vast quantities in water-courses
>>>>> nearly always with sharp edges, showing
>>>>> that they had not been used for any kind
>>>>> of rough handling.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://twitter.com/MartaMLahr/status/1513573362160840704
>>>>
>>>> Humans vary in size, too. From little children to strong
>>>> adults. Digging soil is about the least rough thing a tool can do.
>>>>
>>>>>> But, this time period isn't a problem, people evolved before that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. But IMO they didn't change their
>>>>> core niche --- which was coastal. They were
>>>>> often on off-shore islands (the only way to
>>>>> avoid predation on their slow-growing
>>>>> children).
>>>>
>>>> How many times do I have to tell you, humans don't have
>>>> predators in sea. Sharks don't eat terrestrial flesh, salty crocodiles
>>>> need to live near fresh water (for breading). Terrestrial predators
>>>> are useless in water (except sabre toothed cats, of course, but I
>>>> wouldn't say that they are adapted to sea). The only predators should
>>>> be raptor birds. We had hyraxes to warn us about them (the alarm call
>>>> of hyraxes is about the most scary sound to humans). We also have
>>>> prominent brow ridges and eyebrows which help us looking at the sun
>>>> (those birds attack from the direction of sun), just like hyraxes have
>>>> eyes adapted to look at the sun. Plus, those birds nestle on cliffs,
>>>> and we are experts in climbing cliffs, our young men are brave, and
>>>> they prove their bravery by climbing up on the cliff, destroying
>>>> raptor bird's nest, and coming back with a feather of a raptor bird in
>>>> their hair.
>>>>
>>>>>> You know, Australopithecus is already evolved biped.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, as you should know, we had completely evolved biped on Crete,
>>>>>> 5.7 mya. And human-like fossils going back all the way to 9.6 mya
>>>>>> (Ouranopithecus).
>>>>>
>>>>> Dubiously bipedal, Very unlikely to be ancestral.
>>>>>
>>>>>> First, the higher the mountain, the bigger the chance that spring will
>>>>>> be above sea level.
>>>>>> The second thing, the bigger the precipitation, the bigger the chance
>>>>>> to have fresh water everywhere.
>>>>>> Third thing, the higher the temp, the bigger the precipitation.
>>>>>> Are you following me?
>>>>>
>>>>> For the past 2.6 Myr, coasts have usually been
>>>>> a long way from mountains -- and even cliffs.
>>>>> Take a look at a map of the Adriatic in an
>>>>> ice-age. If any hominins lived on cliffs, they
>>>>> would have had difficulty getting salt, and
>>>>> would not have evolved sweating (or they
>>>>> would have lost the capacity to sweat if
>>>>> they had it to start with).
>>>>>
>>>>> https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1040618220306285-gr1.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Of course they didn't live at the Adriatic sea at that time.
>>>> But to claim that there were no places to live would be too much.
>>>> Greece, Turkey, Italy, Spain, of course there were a lot of rocky
>>>> coasts back then.
>>>
>>> And regarding Ouranopithecus, it is *very* similar to
>>> Graecopithecus, which is in our ancestral line:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils#Late_Miocene_(7.2%E2%80%935.5_million_years_old)
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graecopithecus#Re-examination_and_reinterpretation
>>>
>>>
>>> As far as I know, Ouranopithecus lived in the same ecological
>>> niche as Graecopithecus, this niche is different than ape niche, and,
>>> out of all apes, liveable only for humans. This is niche of
>>> "impoverished" ecology, completely unsuitable for other apes, which need
>>> very rich ecology. It isn't strange that it is *very* similar to
>>> Graecopithecus, although placed in separate taxon. The placement in
>>> separate taxon doesn't exclude similarity. Plus, it is placed in
>>> separate taxon only after the emergence of Trachilos footprints. So,
>>> there was a strong pressure to place it in different taxon, since
>>> Trachilos footprints undoubtedly place Graecopithecus into our taxon
>>> (which means, after Homo-chimp split), and if Ouranopithecus is the same
>>> as Gaecopithecus, then Homo-chimp split would be much earlier than the
>>> popular genetic clock suggests, so, the separation of Graecopithecus
>>> from Ouranopithecus *obviously* was a forced one, one of doubtful
>>> motives (the motive, obviously, was to not place Homo-chimp split too
>>> early, :), which is shameful, just as a lot of things in this science is
>>> also shameful, nothing new).
>> And also, the "impoverished" environment of Ouranopithecus and
>> Graecopithecus was created after "Vallesian crisis", 9.6 mya, by the way
>> of fire, at exactly the same places Graecopithecus and Ouranopithecus
>> were found. And, look at that, humans are the prime users of fire. Now,
>> who would say so?
>> Also, the question is, why then, why 9.6 mya? Why not 150 mya, why not
>> 140 mya, why not 40 mya, why not 35 mya, why not 25 mya, why not 265
>> mya? So, why we have it 9.6 mya? What's wrong with 9.6 mya? Up till then
>> the whole world was forested, so why 9.6 mya? And humans are the prime
>> users of fire, and deforestation was made by the way of fire, and ...,
>> and ...
>> So, the real question here is how no human scientist can make a
>> connection here, this is the *real* question. He doesn't even have to
>> claim that this was because of humans, but, for sure, he has to say that
>> there is a strong possibility that it could be humans. But no, I see no
>> references anywhere, anywhen, by anybody. Not even close to that.
>> So, the actual question is, not what's wrong with 9.6 mya, but what's
>> wrong with those bloody *stupid* humans, who think that they are the
>> smartest things in the Universe.
>
> Unlike previous analyses, which observed an abrupt extinction at the Lower/Upper Vallesian boundary, our results show that this pattern actually results from uneven sampling. We rather propose a slow decrease in taxonomic richness from the Upper Vallesian, the consequence of a series of extinctions affecting, in priority, forest species.

Exactly. It wasn't one geological, or climatic event, that caused
global change, it is the fact that humans started to burn forest, more
and more, not all forest at the same time, but gradually.
For this you need to be bipedal, and you need to be able to use fire.
So both of those happened earlier. So, the split from chimps was much
earlier, and, of course, this split happened in Africa.
So, our ancestors split from chimps in Africa, went to Europe
(northern coast of Africa is less likely, since it isn't a rocky coast),
went all the way to Portugal, along a shore. There (in Portugal) they
met Mediterranean ecology, a pyrophytic ecology, and learnt about the
benefits of fire. Of course, initially the benefits were strictly for
safety reasons. But soon they found out that burning is additional
source of meat. Well, that's good, but we are talking about coastal
species. Then they, very gradually, started to move away from the coast,
burning more and more, burning and eating other species, particularly
other apes, which lived on trees, and which weren't able to easily move
from tree to tree (just like orangutan cannot). But there were other
"burnable" species as well, like piglets (who are living in nests).
So, some of us moved away from the coast, those became
Australopithecuses. Our direct ancestors stayed at the coast, where they
perfected language (coastline living is good for developing language),
until our language became so good that we were able to manufacture
tools. At that time we (Homo) also moved away from coastline, and
replaced Australopithecuses there.
But, even before all this, before the use of fire, before reaching
Portugal, another split happened. This was the split between adducted
big toe, and abducted big toe species. You know, in the beginning we
were rocky coast species, eating shellfish on rocky coast. But, there
are shellfish on shallow coasts, as well. So, some of us ate shellfish
on shallow coast. But, you cannot use cliffs as a safe sleeping place on
those coasts, since there are no cliffs. So, you have to use trees. So,
this is where abducted big toe emerged. So, out of this branch emerged
Oreopithecus and Ardipithecus. Those didn't use fire, since fire use
isn't beneficial if you are living on trees, you burn your own house.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Fresh water near coast

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Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
From: yelwo...@gmail.com (Paul Crowley)
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 by: Paul Crowley - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 10:47 UTC

On Saturday 23 April 2022 at 00:50:05 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

>>> For example, see that all those "shallowly" hills are folded,
>>> and those folds protrude into sea, so, the coastline isn't like a
>>> straight line, but it is wavy. Well, all those tips which protrude
>>> into sea can be eroded by the force of sea currents, this is how
>>> coastline forms. So, you can have intermittently, cliffs (which are
>>> eroded tips), and shallow coves. So, cliff - shallow cove - cliff -
>>> shallow cove.
>>> See Sydney:
>>> https://youtu.be/cO59-P6dXh8
.. .
Sydney harbour is a classic 'ria' -- possible
only after a large and recent rise in sea level.
.. .
>> This picture shows what I am talking about:
>> https://opentextbc.ca/geology/chapter/17-2-landforms-of-coastal-erosion/
> . .
> Oops, the very last picture on this page (I thought that the link will
> present only the picture).

That sequence shows 'a', 'b', 'c', and 'd'.
.. .
We're familiar with 'a' -- it's the time we
live in. -- loads of rocky coasts and plenty
of sea cliffs.
.. .
But 2.6 ma nearly all coasts would have
been like 'd' -- with rocks and promontories
ground down by millions of years of wave
action.

Then sea levels fell -- up to 100 metres.
There were virtually NO rocky coasts.
Hardly any cliffs.

Re: Fresh water near coast

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
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Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 11:17 UTC

On 23.4.2022. 12:47, Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Saturday 23 April 2022 at 00:50:05 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>
>>>> For example, see that all those "shallowly" hills are folded,
>>>> and those folds protrude into sea, so, the coastline isn't like a
>>>> straight line, but it is wavy. Well, all those tips which protrude
>>>> into sea can be eroded by the force of sea currents, this is how
>>>> coastline forms. So, you can have intermittently, cliffs (which are
>>>> eroded tips), and shallow coves. So, cliff - shallow cove - cliff -
>>>> shallow cove.
>>>> See Sydney:
>>>> https://youtu.be/cO59-P6dXh8
> . .
> Sydney harbour is a classic 'ria' -- possible
> only after a large and recent rise in sea level.
> . .
>>> This picture shows what I am talking about:
>>> https://opentextbc.ca/geology/chapter/17-2-landforms-of-coastal-erosion/
>> . .
>> Oops, the very last picture on this page (I thought that the link will
>> present only the picture).
>
> That sequence shows 'a', 'b', 'c', and 'd'.
> . .
> We're familiar with 'a' -- it's the time we
> live in. -- loads of rocky coasts and plenty
> of sea cliffs.
> . .
> But 2.6 ma nearly all coasts would have
> been like 'd' -- with rocks and promontories
> ground down by millions of years of wave
> action.
>
> Then sea levels fell -- up to 100 metres.
> There were virtually NO rocky coasts.
> Hardly any cliffs.

Those folds are normal consequences of crest uplifting. Africa and
Europe collide, which produces uplifting of Europe, and sinking of
Africa below Europe. So, Europe has rocky coast, while Africa has
shallow coast, which sinks below Europe. Even in Adriatic you have
something similar. Italy sinks below Croatia. Croatian coast uplifts,
and this is why we have those hills on Croatian coast, while Italy
sinks, and Italy has shallow, straight coast of Adriatic, while it also
has hills on the opposite side of the Italian "boot" (Tyrrhenian and
Ligurian Seas).

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

Re: Fresh water near coast

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Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
From: yelwo...@gmail.com (Paul Crowley)
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 by: Paul Crowley - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 20:23 UTC

On Saturday 23 April 2022 at 12:17:11 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

>> But 2.6 ma nearly all coasts would have
>> been like 'd' -- with rocks and promontories
>> ground down by millions of years of wave
>> action.
>> . .
>> Then sea levels fell -- up to 100 metres.
>> There were virtually NO rocky coasts.
>> Hardly any cliffs.
> . .
> Those folds are normal consequences of crest uplifting.

Geological uplifts are usually slow.
Wave action is fast, and sea-level rises
(at the end of glacials) and sea-level falls
(at the start of glacials) are effectively
instantaneous (on geological timescales).

A fall of 10 or 20 metres in sea-levels
will -- in nearly all cases -- remove the
coast from rocky shores and cliffs by
at least a kilometre, and often by
dozens of km.

> Africa and Europe collide, which produces uplifting of Europe, and
> sinking of Africa below Europe. So, Europe has rocky coast, while
> Africa has shallow coast, which sinks below Europe.

All that is 'temporary'. It's like looking
at Durban after the recent floods. Go
back to 15 ka to see the situation our
ancestors faced most of the time -- no
(or very few) rocky coasts.

Re: Fresh water near coast

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Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
From: jte...@gmail.com (I Envy JTEM)
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 by: I Envy JTEM - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 20:43 UTC

Paul Crowley wrote:

> A fall of 10 or 20 metres in sea-levels
> will -- in nearly all cases -- remove the
> coast from rocky shores and cliffs by
> at least a kilometre, and often by
> dozens of km.

Sea level fell more than 100 meters during the last glacial period.

I mean, it's usually described as about 100 meters lower, but that's
just a round about number, not exact. Secondly, it's comparing the
right now to the glacial period, when the actual fall should be measured
from the Eemian, which was warmer and saw higher sea levels.

This is why I used to call it a "Pump": The glacial/interglacial cycle.

Lengthy glacial periods dropped sea level, created this coastal highways
which not only drew our ancestors out, but allowed them to travel between
continents. Then the interglacial would arrive, swallowing up these
highways, pushing whole populations inland and in many cases isolating
them from other groups... only for sea level to drop again, pulling them
out... only to rise again, pushing them in...

It's how Aquatic Ape and Multi Regionalism (Regional Continuity) fit like
a glove.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/682298035633553408

Re: Fresh water near coast

<t41pcn$pqr$1@sunce.iskon.hr>

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 23:00:06 +0200
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 21:00 UTC

On 23.4.2022. 22:23, Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Saturday 23 April 2022 at 12:17:11 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>
>>> But 2.6 ma nearly all coasts would have
>>> been like 'd' -- with rocks and promontories
>>> ground down by millions of years of wave
>>> action.
>>> . .
>>> Then sea levels fell -- up to 100 metres.
>>> There were virtually NO rocky coasts.
>>> Hardly any cliffs.
>> . .
>> Those folds are normal consequences of crest uplifting.
>
> Geological uplifts are usually slow.
> Wave action is fast, and sea-level rises
> (at the end of glacials) and sea-level falls
> (at the start of glacials) are effectively
> instantaneous (on geological timescales).
>
> A fall of 10 or 20 metres in sea-levels
> will -- in nearly all cases -- remove the
> coast from rocky shores and cliffs by
> at least a kilometre, and often by
> dozens of km.
>
>> Africa and Europe collide, which produces uplifting of Europe, and
>> sinking of Africa below Europe. So, Europe has rocky coast, while
>> Africa has shallow coast, which sinks below Europe.
>
> All that is 'temporary'. It's like looking
> at Durban after the recent floods. Go
> back to 15 ka to see the situation our
> ancestors faced most of the time -- no
> (or very few) rocky coasts.

Please, first set things with yourself. Now you are saying that this
goes quickly, at the beginning you've said that we are still at the
phase "a", today. Notice, after "a" it comes to "b", which has cliffs.
After "b" it comes to "c", which also has cliffs. And after "c" it comes
to "d", which also has cliffs (if you have noticed). So, quickly is
better than slowly, in regards to cliffs. Whichever way you turn it, it
always resolves into cliffs.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

Re: Fresh water near coast

<f6b5b925-9c90-470b-94c1-5778ec05fac0n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
From: yelwo...@gmail.com (Paul Crowley)
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 by: Paul Crowley - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 10:46 UTC

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 10:00:09 PM UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

> Please, first set things with yourself. Now you are saying that this
> goes quickly, at the beginning you've said that we are still at the
> phase "a", today. Notice, after "a" it comes to "b", which has cliffs.
> After "b" it comes to "c", which also has cliffs. And after "c" it comes
> to "d", which also has cliffs (if you have noticed).

This model is largely theoretical, since it
disregards changes in sea-level. We are
in Stage 'a' at the moment, since the
seas rose between 16ka and 12 ka.

https://opentextbc.ca/geology/chapter/17-2-landforms-of-coastal-erosion/

But the next stage (now a bit overdue) is
a new ice-age, where sea-levels fall by
around 50 metres. In most locations the
seas vanish over the horizon and are 100
+ km away. The stages 'b', 'c' and 'd' in
that model just never happen.

The model has some application before
ice-ages began 2.6 ma. When sea-levels
were fairly stable for millions of years, the
sea would have erased promontories, and
coasts would have become long straight
beaches, with cliffs set well back and few
rocky foreshores.

This is important for Aquatic Ape
theories or any (such as myself) who
propose that early hominins occupied a
coastal niche. Before 2.6 ma there's little
chance of diving in rock pools, or of
consuming barnacles. The shellfish
available would be those found on
exposed (storm-ridden) sandy beaches,
possibly cockles, clams, oysters, best
obtained by walking at low tide.

Re: Fresh water near coast

<t43ake$tp3$1@sunce.iskon.hr>

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From: mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr (Mario Petrinovic)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Subject: Re: Fresh water near coast
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 13:00:30 +0200
Organization: Iskon Internet d.d.
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 by: Mario Petrinovic - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 11:00 UTC

On 24.4.2022. 12:46, Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 10:00:09 PM UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>
>> Please, first set things with yourself. Now you are saying that this
>> goes quickly, at the beginning you've said that we are still at the
>> phase "a", today. Notice, after "a" it comes to "b", which has cliffs.
>> After "b" it comes to "c", which also has cliffs. And after "c" it comes
>> to "d", which also has cliffs (if you have noticed).
>
> This model is largely theoretical, since it
> disregards changes in sea-level. We are
> in Stage 'a' at the moment, since the
> seas rose between 16ka and 12 ka.
>
> https://opentextbc.ca/geology/chapter/17-2-landforms-of-coastal-erosion/
>
> But the next stage (now a bit overdue) is
> a new ice-age, where sea-levels fall by
> around 50 metres. In most locations the
> seas vanish over the horizon and are 100
> + km away. The stages 'b', 'c' and 'd' in
> that model just never happen.
>
> The model has some application before
> ice-ages began 2.6 ma. When sea-levels
> were fairly stable for millions of years, the
> sea would have erased promontories, and
> coasts would have become long straight
> beaches, with cliffs set well back and few
> rocky foreshores.
>
> This is important for Aquatic Ape
> theories or any (such as myself) who
> propose that early hominins occupied a
> coastal niche. Before 2.6 ma there's little
> chance of diving in rock pools, or of
> consuming barnacles. The shellfish
> available would be those found on
> exposed (storm-ridden) sandy beaches,
> possibly cockles, clams, oysters, best
> obtained by walking at low tide.

Hm, this is purely theoretical model, since you assume that there was
a sea, more than 10 kya. Do you have any evidence for that?

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

Re: Fresh water near coast

<f42505c7-0fa8-4c3a-bda5-8b26391d3c38n@googlegroups.com>

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 by: littor...@gmail.com - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 15:07 UTC

Op donderdag 21 april 2022 om 11:49:55 UTC+2 schreef Paul Crowley:
> Humans sweat a lot.

What is the problem??

Early-Pleist.H.erectus was littoral-diving: had to get rid of Na+.
Google "Pleistocene Homo coastal dispersal PPT".

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