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tech / sci.lang / Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

SubjectAuthor
* Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Dingbat
`* Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups
 +* Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Antonio Marques
 |+- Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Dingbat
 |+* Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Dingbat
 ||`* Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Dingbat
 || `* Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Dingbat
 ||  `- Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups
 |`* Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups
 | `* Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups
 |  `* Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups
 |   `* Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups
 |    `- Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups
 `* Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Tavi Alexandre
  `- Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups

1
Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

<bde85216-03dc-41de-bda8-3e77fca97203n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: ranjit_m...@yahoo.com (Dingbat)
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 by: Dingbat - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:22 UTC

Subject: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

This finds a video with more than one pronunciation, not a single one.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=gaztelugatxe+pronunciationh

Yet, there seems to be a standard pronunciation. Is that the Euskara
pronunciation? Is the pronunciation different in Spanish and other
languages?

The word gaztelugatxe [ɡas̻teluɡatʃe] comes from the Basque gaztelu "castle" and atx = "rock", forming "the rock castle". The word atx and its
derivatives are usual in Basque toponyms related to rocky summits:
Aketx, Untzillatx, Atxulo...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaztelugatxe

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

<76485256-2051-494c-9ce3-5139c6ecaabfn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: goo...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups)
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 by: Ruud Harmsen via Goo - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 19:46 UTC

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 5:22:15 PM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
> Subject: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
>
> This finds a video with more than one pronunciation, not a single one.
> https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=gaztelugatxe+pronunciation

(The last h does not belong in the URL.)

Many are by English speakers, it seems, so not valid, with the exception
of the first.

> Yet, there seems to be a standard pronunciation. Is that the Euskara
> pronunciation? Is the pronunciation different in Spanish and other
> languages?

Bask and Iberian Spanish has practically the same pronunciation. One
theory that Spanish sound the way it does as a result of a Basque substrate..

A notable, though small difference is that written z is an laminal s in Basque
(as opposed to <s>, which is apical), whereas in Iberian, non-southern
Spanish, it has further developped to an interdental like th in English think.

Northern Portuguese dialects also still have this the Basque way (also
voiced, they distinguish coser = to sew from cozer = to cook), and a few
hundred years ago, that was probably the norm everywhere in Iberia (and
possibly also Southern France).

> The word gaztelugatxe [ɡas̻teluɡatʃe] comes from the Basque gaztelu =
> "castle" and atx = "rock", forming "the rock castle". The word atx and its
> derivatives are usual in Basque toponyms related to rocky summits:
> Aketx, Untzillatx, Atxulo...
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaztelugatxe

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

<sidfp9$is5$1@dont-email.me>

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From: no_em...@invalid.invalid (Antonio Marques)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:36:57 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Antonio Marques - Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:36 UTC

"Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 5:22:15 PM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
>> Subject: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
>>
>> This finds a video with more than one pronunciation, not a single one.
>> https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=gaztelugatxe+pronunciation
>
> (The last h does not belong in the URL.)
>
> Many are by English speakers, it seems, so not valid, with the exception
> of the first.
>
>> Yet, there seems to be a standard pronunciation. Is that the Euskara
>> pronunciation? Is the pronunciation different in Spanish and other
>> languages?
>
> Bask and Iberian Spanish has practically the same pronunciation. One
> theory that Spanish sound the way it does as a result of a Basque substrate.
>
> A notable, though small difference is that written z is an laminal s in Basque
> (as opposed to <s>, which is apical), whereas in Iberian, non-southern
> Spanish, it has further developped to an interdental like th in English think.
>
> Northern Portuguese dialects also still have this the Basque way (also
> voiced, they distinguish coser = to sew from cozer = to cook),

Northeastern. And it's mostly gone, unfortunately.

In the Galician side of Gerês, they kept the voiced versions, so the 4-way
distinction is
s z
θ ð

> and a few
> hundred years ago, that was probably the norm everywhere in Iberia (and
> possibly also Southern France).

Cf
cosina 'cousin'
cozina 'kitchen'

>> The word gaztelugatxe [ɡas̻teluɡatʃe] comes from the Basque gaztelu =
>> "castle" and atx = "rock", forming "the rock castle". The word atx and its
>> derivatives are usual in Basque toponyms related to rocky summits:
>> Aketx, Untzillatx, Atxulo...
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaztelugatxe
>

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

<63a84330-6f98-4683-8e56-1b522d155827n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: ranjit_m...@yahoo.com (Dingbat)
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 by: Dingbat - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 00:57 UTC

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 1:36:59 PM UTC-7, Antonio Marques wrote:
> "Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:

> > Bask and Iberian Spanish have practically the same pronunciation. One
> > theory that Spanish sound the way it does as a result of a Basque substrate.
> >
> > A notable, though small difference is that written z is an laminal s in Basque
> > (as opposed to <s>, which is apical), whereas in Iberian, non-southern
> > Spanish, it has further developped to an interdental like th in English think.
> >
> > Northern Portuguese dialects also still have this the Basque way (also
> > voiced, they distinguish coser = to sew from cozer = to cook),
> Northeastern. And it's mostly gone, unfortunately.
>
> In the Galician side of Gerês, they kept the voiced versions, so the 4-way
> distinction is
> s z
> θ ð

Your examples of [s] vs [z] seem to be coser vs cozer and cosina vs cozina
What are examples of words where this Galego dialect has [θ] & [ð]?

> > and a few
> > hundred years ago, that was probably the norm everywhere in Iberia (and
> > possibly also Southern France).
> Cf
> cosina 'cousin'
> cozina 'kitchen'

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: ranjit_m...@yahoo.com (Dingbat)
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 by: Dingbat - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 01:05 UTC

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 1:36:59 PM UTC-7, Antonio Marques wrote:
> "Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:

> > Bask and Iberian Spanish have practically the same pronunciation. One
> > theory that Spanish sound the way it does as a result of a Basque substrate.
> >
> > A notable, though small difference is that written z is an laminal s in Basque
> > (as opposed to <s>, which is apical), whereas in Iberian, non-southern
> > Spanish, it has further developped to an interdental like th in English think.
> >
> > Northern Portuguese dialects also still have this the Basque way (also
> > voiced, they distinguish coser = to sew from cozer = to cook),
> Northeastern. And it's mostly gone, unfortunately.
>
> In the Galician side of Gerês, they kept the voiced versions, so the 4-way
> distinction is
> s z
> θ ð

Your examples of [s] vs [z] seem to be coser vs cozer and cosina vs cozina
What are examples of words where this Galego dialect has [θ] & [ð]?

> > and a few
> > hundred years ago, that was probably the norm everywhere in Iberia (and
> > possibly also Southern France).

"Southern France" must imply Gascony/ Aquitania that once had native
Euskara speakers. Or did you mean a larger area than that?

> Cf
> cosina 'cousin'
> cozina 'kitchen'

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

<fdd54413-1853-4f0b-87a3-f53ec1dbf682n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: ranjit_m...@yahoo.com (Dingbat)
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 by: Dingbat - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 03:49 UTC

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 6:05:08 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 1:36:59 PM UTC-7, Antonio Marques wrote:
> > "Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > > Bask and Iberian Spanish have practically the same pronunciation. One
> > > theory that Spanish sound the way it does as a result of a Basque substrate.
> > >
> > > A notable, though small difference is that written z is an laminal s in Basque
> > > (as opposed to <s>, which is apical), whereas in Iberian, non-southern
> > > Spanish, it has further developped to an interdental like th in English think.
> > >
> > > Northern Portuguese dialects also still have this the Basque way (also
> > > voiced, they distinguish coser = to sew from cozer = to cook),
> > Northeastern. And it's mostly gone, unfortunately.
> >
> > In the Galician side of Gerês, they kept the voiced versions, so the 4-way
> > distinction is
> > s z
> > θ ð
> Your examples of [s] vs [z] seem to be coser vs cozer and cosina vs cozina
> What are examples of words where this Galego dialect has [θ] & [ð]?

Omniglot says that in Galician, although perhaps not in the "East of Geres"
dialect you describe, these are the articulation to spelling correspondences:

[s] <s>
[θ] <z>, <c> apparently as an allophone of /c/
[ð] <d> apparently as an allophone of /d/
[z] is not listed as an articulation of anything
https://omniglot.com/writing/galician.htm

> > > and a few
> > > hundred years ago, that was probably the norm everywhere in Iberia (and
> > > possibly also Southern France).
> "Southern France" must imply Gascony/ Aquitania that once had native
> Euskara speakers. Or did you mean a larger area than that?
> > Cf
> > cosina 'cousin'
> > cozina 'kitchen'

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

<d724d0f0-6ec1-4c7c-b9c6-b784251b517cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: oalexand...@gmail.com (Tavi Alexandre)
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 by: Tavi Alexandre - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 04:14 UTC

El dia dimarts, 21 de setembre de 2021 a les 21:46:03 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> va escriure:
> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 5:22:15 PM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
> > Subject: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
>
> Bask and Iberian Spanish has practically the same pronunciation. One
> theory that Spanish sound the way it does as a result of a Basque substrate.
>
Actually, it's rather on the contrary: Basque pronounciation has been heavily influenced by Spanish and other Romance languages (Gascon and French on the North).

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: goo...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups)
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 by: Ruud Harmsen via Goo - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 07:10 UTC

On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:14:42 AM UTC+2, Tavi Alexandre wrote:
> El dia dimarts, 21 de setembre de 2021 a les 21:46:03 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> va escriure:
> > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 5:22:15 PM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
> > > Subject: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
> >
> > Bask and Iberian Spanish has practically the same pronunciation. One
> > theory that Spanish sound the way it does as a result of a Basque substrate.
> >
> Actually, it's rather on the contrary: Basque pronounciation has been heavily influenced by Spanish and other Romance languages (Gascon and French on the North).

How did it sound before that influence, and how do we know?

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: goo...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups)
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 by: Ruud Harmsen via Goo - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 08:04 UTC

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 10:36:59 PM UTC+2, Antonio Marques wrote:
> "Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 5:22:15 PM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
> >> Subject: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
> >>
> >> This finds a video with more than one pronunciation, not a single one.
> >> https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=gaztelugatxe+pronunciation
> >
> > (The last h does not belong in the URL.)
> >
> > Many are by English speakers, it seems, so not valid, with the exception
> > of the first.
> >
> >> Yet, there seems to be a standard pronunciation. Is that the Euskara
> >> pronunciation? Is the pronunciation different in Spanish and other
> >> languages?
> >
> > Bask and Iberian Spanish has practically the same pronunciation. One
> > theory that Spanish sound the way it does as a result of a Basque substrate.
> >
> > A notable, though small difference is that written z is an laminal s in Basque
> > (as opposed to <s>, which is apical), whereas in Iberian, non-southern
> > Spanish, it has further developped to an interdental like th in English think.
> >
> > Northern Portuguese dialects also still have this the Basque way (also
> > voiced, they distinguish coser = to sew from cozer = to cook),
> Northeastern. And it's mostly gone, unfortunately.
>
> In the Galician side of Gerês, they kept the voiced versions, so the 4-way
> distinction is
> s z
> θ ð

Yes, except that it's not θ ð, but really a laminal [s] and [z], as opposed
to the same apical. Listen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMmFGWVETA8&t=1210s
https://www.facebook.com/ruud.harmsen.7/posts/4618947438123721?comment_id=4623023127716152&reply_comment_id=4624595604225571

> > and a few
> > hundred years ago, that was probably the norm everywhere in Iberia (and
> > possibly also Southern France).
> Cf
> cosina 'cousin'
> cozina 'kitchen'

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: goo...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups)
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 by: Ruud Harmsen via Goo - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 08:15 UTC

On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 10:04:22 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 10:36:59 PM UTC+2, Antonio Marques wrote:
> > In the Galician side of Gerês, they kept the voiced versions, so the 4-way
> > distinction is
> > s z
> > θ ð
> Yes, except that it's not θ ð, but really a laminal [s] and [z], as opposed
> to the same apical. Listen here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMmFGWVETA8&t=1210s
> https://www.facebook.com/ruud.harmsen.7/posts/4618947438123721?comment_id=4623023127716152&reply_comment_id=4624595604225571
> > > and a few
> > > hundred years ago, that was probably the norm everywhere in Iberia (and
> > > possibly also Southern France).
> > Cf
> > cosina 'cousin'
> > cozina 'kitchen'

That film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMmFGWVETA8,
"A fronteira será escrita" (The border will be written) is about an
area that is officially divided between Spain and Portugul, but
the Portuguese and Galician dialects on either side of the border
are in fact essentially the same. The once small river between them,
(is the name Encoro de Lindoso?), but since 1992 is quite wide, due
to the building of the Lindoso Hydroelectric Dam (Barragem de Lindoso).
Parts of the village of Várzea were swallowed by the water.

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: goo...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups)
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 by: Ruud Harmsen via Goo - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 08:22 UTC

On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 10:15:04 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 10:04:22 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 10:36:59 PM UTC+2, Antonio Marques wrote:
> > > In the Galician side of Gerês, they kept the voiced versions, so the 4-way
> > > distinction is
> > > s z
> > > θ ð
> > Yes, except that it's not θ ð, but really a laminal [s] and [z], as opposed
> > to the same apical. Listen here:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMmFGWVETA8&t=1210s
> > https://www.facebook.com/ruud.harmsen.7/posts/4618947438123721?comment_id=4623023127716152&reply_comment_id=4624595604225571
> > > > and a few
> > > > hundred years ago, that was probably the norm everywhere in Iberia (and
> > > > possibly also Southern France).
> > > Cf
> > > cosina 'cousin'
> > > cozina 'kitchen'
> That film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMmFGWVETA8,
> "A fronteira será escrita" (The border will be written) is about an
> area that is officially divided between Spain and Portugul, but
> the Portuguese and Galician dialects on either side of the border
> are in fact essentially the same. The once small river between them,
> (is the name Encoro de Lindoso?), but since 1992 is quite wide, due
> to the building of the Lindoso Hydroelectric Dam (Barragem de Lindoso).
> Parts of the village of Várzea were swallowed by the water.

People from Olelas visiting what is left of Várzea. (Or Bárzea, as a local
inhabitant calls it.)

(BTW. I'm not a fan of this type of music, especially not when unskilled
singers start singing to it, which they often do in endless special programs
on local radio station, like Rádio Valdevez. Otherwise I love this region, one
of the most beautiful of Portugal.)

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: goo...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups)
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 by: Ruud Harmsen via Goo - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 08:25 UTC

On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 10:22:27 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 10:15:04 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 10:04:22 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 10:36:59 PM UTC+2, Antonio Marques wrote:
> > > > In the Galician side of Gerês, they kept the voiced versions, so the 4-way
> > > > distinction is
> > > > s z
> > > > θ ð
> > > Yes, except that it's not θ ð, but really a laminal [s] and [z], as opposed
> > > to the same apical. Listen here:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMmFGWVETA8&t=1210s
> > > https://www.facebook.com/ruud.harmsen.7/posts/4618947438123721?comment_id=4623023127716152&reply_comment_id=4624595604225571
> > > > > and a few
> > > > > hundred years ago, that was probably the norm everywhere in Iberia (and
> > > > > possibly also Southern France).
> > > > Cf
> > > > cosina 'cousin'
> > > > cozina 'kitchen'
> > That film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMmFGWVETA8,
> > "A fronteira será escrita" (The border will be written) is about an
> > area that is officially divided between Spain and Portugul, but
> > the Portuguese and Galician dialects on either side of the border
> > are in fact essentially the same. The once small river between them,
> > (is the name Encoro de Lindoso?), but since 1992 is quite wide, due
> > to the building of the Lindoso Hydroelectric Dam (Barragem de Lindoso).
> > Parts of the village of Várzea were swallowed by the water.
> People from Olelas visiting what is left of Várzea. (Or Bárzea, as a local
> inhabitant calls it.)
>
> (BTW. I'm not a fan of this type of music, especially not when unskilled
> singers start singing to it, which they often do in endless special programs
> on local radio station, like Rádio Valdevez. Otherwise I love this region, one
> of the most beautiful of Portugal.)

See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY4oEF6uBdY, about the sunken
village of Aceredo. Slightly difference region, but due the same Barragem (Dam).

We visited it in 2002: https://rudhar.com/fotoport/lindoso.htm . I didn't even
know the Dam was only 10 years old then. It looked older.

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: goo...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups)
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 by: Ruud Harmsen via Goo - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 08:28 UTC

> > > That film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMmFGWVETA8,

Political aside: note the headscarves the older women wear. They are
Christians, not Muslims, and have been for maybe 400 years or over.

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: ranjit_m...@yahoo.com (Dingbat)
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 by: Dingbat - Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:01 UTC

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 8:49:46 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 6:05:08 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 1:36:59 PM UTC-7, Antonio Marques wrote:
> > > "Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > > > Bask and Iberian Spanish have practically the same pronunciation. One
> > > > theory that Spanish sound the way it does as a result of a Basque substrate.
> > > >
> > > > A notable, though small difference is that written z is an laminal s in Basque
> > > > (as opposed to <s>, which is apical), whereas in Iberian, non-southern
> > > > Spanish, it has further developped to an interdental like th in English think.
> > > >
> > > > Northern Portuguese dialects also still have this the Basque way (also
> > > > voiced, they distinguish coser = to sew from cozer = to cook),
> > > Northeastern. And it's mostly gone, unfortunately.
> > >
> > > In the Galician side of Gerês, they kept the voiced versions, so the 4-way
> > > distinction is
> > > s z
> > > θ ð

> Omniglot says that in Galician, although perhaps not in the "East of Geres"
> dialect you describe, these are the articulation to spelling correspondences:
>
> [s] <s>
> [θ] <z>, <c> apparently as an allophone of /c/
> [ð] <d> apparently as an allophone of /d/
> [z] is not listed as an articulation of anything
> https://omniglot.com/writing/galician.htm

Portuguese has a [z] in Camisa. Is that an example of [z] in Galego too?

> > > > and a few
> > > > hundred years ago, that was probably the norm everywhere in Iberia (and
> > > > possibly also Southern France).
> > "Southern France" must imply Gascony/ Aquitania that once had native
> > Euskara speakers. Or did you mean a larger area than that?
> > > Cf
> > > cosina 'cousin'
> > > cozina 'kitchen'

Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?

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Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Gaztelugatxe?
From: goo...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups)
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 by: Ruud Harmsen via Goo - Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:46 UTC

On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 12:01:02 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 8:49:46 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 6:05:08 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 1:36:59 PM UTC-7, Antonio Marques wrote:
> > > > "Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > > > > Bask and Iberian Spanish have practically the same pronunciation. One
> > > > > theory that Spanish sound the way it does as a result of a Basque substrate.
> > > > >
> > > > > A notable, though small difference is that written z is an laminal s in Basque
> > > > > (as opposed to <s>, which is apical), whereas in Iberian, non-southern
> > > > > Spanish, it has further developped to an interdental like th in English think.
> > > > >
> > > > > Northern Portuguese dialects also still have this the Basque way (also
> > > > > voiced, they distinguish coser = to sew from cozer = to cook),
> > > > Northeastern. And it's mostly gone, unfortunately.
> > > >
> > > > In the Galician side of Gerês, they kept the voiced versions, so the 4-way
> > > > distinction is
> > > > s z
> > > > θ ð
> > Omniglot says that in Galician, although perhaps not in the "East of Geres"
> > dialect you describe, these are the articulation to spelling correspondences:
> >
> > [s] <s>
> > [θ] <z>, <c> apparently as an allophone of /c/
> > [ð] <d> apparently as an allophone of /d/
> > [z] is not listed as an articulation of anything
> > https://omniglot.com/writing/galician.htm

> Portuguese has a [z] in Camisa. Is that an example of [z] in Galego too?

Standard Galician hasn't. It only has voiceless sibilants. They write Jesus
as Xesus, pronounces Shay Soos. https://rudhar.com/etymolog/puxapush.htm
(photo in bottom).

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