On 12/5/21 1:39 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 11:39:01 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks. They aren't nearly as far away as I thought, more like 500 feet
>> not half a mi as I guessed originally. If I get a night of no cars or
>> TV's, I'll get further improvement for sure.
>
> I hesitate to suggest, but how much would you have to pay for 500ft of
> mic cable?
>
> d
>

Actually, they seem to be behind where the local neighborhood
groundskeeper parks his mowing equipment. I might ask him if I could
couple the H2 to the back of the fence protecting the equipment. That
would put me a LOT closer. I use a lithium ion pack with the H2 that
could power it for several days, of course the SD would be used up by
morning. I had to use something other than the AA's because with them,
I only have power for about 6 hours.

On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 13:55:14 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:

>On 12/5/21 1:39 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 11:39:01 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks. They aren't nearly as far away as I thought, more like 500 feet
>>> not half a mi as I guessed originally. If I get a night of no cars or
>>> TV's, I'll get further improvement for sure.
>>
>> I hesitate to suggest, but how much would you have to pay for 500ft of
>> mic cable?
>>
>> d
>>
>
>Actually, they seem to be behind where the local neighborhood
>groundskeeper parks his mowing equipment. I might ask him if I could
>couple the H2 to the back of the fence protecting the equipment. That
>would put me a LOT closer. I use a lithium ion pack with the H2 that
>could power it for several days, of course the SD would be used up by
>morning. I had to use something other than the AA's because with them,
>I only have power for about 6 hours.

An external power feed - car battery maybe. Does the zoom not feature
VOX switching? (sound activation).

d

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On 12/5/2021 8:05 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 07:50:33 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
>
>> On 12/5/2021 2:54 AM, Jake T wrote:
>>> So after several days of tinkering around with the umbrella, waiting
>>> for the right timing (the coyotes I'm listening for don't seem to
>>> howl on cloudy or inclement nights), and trying to navigate around
>>> the neighborly noises, I finally achieved a workable result:
>>
>> Wow that's not too bad at all given your distance. I still think
>> an appreciable amount of the hiss is coming from the H2 internals.
>>
>>
>> Toby
>
> I would be surprised if the H2's own hiss came even close to an
> outdoor noise level.
>
> d
>

The white noise I hear is so uniform and constant that it
makes me think of the preamp noise I've heard from the H2.
I get that there is a ton of ambient noise, but I'll bet the
H2 is at or near full gain, and it just doesn't have the
preamps and/or maybe the mics to run that way without stomping
over the content a bit with some hiss.

On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 16:38:51 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:

>On 12/5/2021 8:05 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 07:50:33 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/5/2021 2:54 AM, Jake T wrote:
>>>> So after several days of tinkering around with the umbrella, waiting
>>>> for the right timing (the coyotes I'm listening for don't seem to
>>>> howl on cloudy or inclement nights), and trying to navigate around
>>>> the neighborly noises, I finally achieved a workable result:
>>>
>>> Wow that's not too bad at all given your distance. I still think
>>> an appreciable amount of the hiss is coming from the H2 internals.
>>>
>>>
>>> Toby
>>
>> I would be surprised if the H2's own hiss came even close to an
>> outdoor noise level.
>>
>> d
>>
>
>The white noise I hear is so uniform and constant that it
>makes me think of the preamp noise I've heard from the H2.
>I get that there is a ton of ambient noise, but I'll bet the
>H2 is at or near full gain, and it just doesn't have the
>preamps and/or maybe the mics to run that way without stomping
>over the content a bit with some hiss.
>
>
I just had a listen, and you are right. There's a lot of electronic
hiss in there.

But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
contributing essentially nothing to this recording.

d

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On Mon, 06 Dec 2021 10:22:18 GMT, spam@spam.com (Don Pearce) wrote:

>On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 16:38:51 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
>
>>On 12/5/2021 8:05 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 07:50:33 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/5/2021 2:54 AM, Jake T wrote:
>>>>> So after several days of tinkering around with the umbrella, waiting
>>>>> for the right timing (the coyotes I'm listening for don't seem to
>>>>> howl on cloudy or inclement nights), and trying to navigate around
>>>>> the neighborly noises, I finally achieved a workable result:
>>>>
>>>> Wow that's not too bad at all given your distance. I still think
>>>> an appreciable amount of the hiss is coming from the H2 internals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Toby
>>>
>>> I would be surprised if the H2's own hiss came even close to an
>>> outdoor noise level.
>>>
>>> d
>>>
>>
>>The white noise I hear is so uniform and constant that it
>>makes me think of the preamp noise I've heard from the H2.
>>I get that there is a ton of ambient noise, but I'll bet the
>>H2 is at or near full gain, and it just doesn't have the
>>preamps and/or maybe the mics to run that way without stomping
>>over the content a bit with some hiss.
>>
>>
>I just had a listen, and you are right. There's a lot of electronic
>hiss in there.
>
>But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
>microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
>clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
>can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
>contributing essentially nothing to this recording.
>
>d

Typo - stereo sound field

d

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Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:

[...]
> Well, looks like I was wrong about the tests. This makeshift umbrella I
> covered with aluminum tape I believe is still too transparent. Although
> it is reflecting and concentrating some of the sound, I still find a lot
> coming in from the rear side. So, either the single layered aluminum
> tape coating isn't enough, or....

It needs to be made of something solid enough that it won't move (even
microscopically) at the lowest frequency you are trying to reflect. It
also needs to be at least as big as the longest wavelength to obstruct
any sound from the back. A metal dustbin lid or a solid satellite dish
is a better proposition.

If you have problems with the metal 'ringing', you can damp it with
something lossy, such as bituminised roofing felt. Either you will need
a single thick layer or a thin layer as the 'filling' in a sandwich
between two stiff materials, such as sheet steel, aluminium or thin
plywood. It does not have to cover the whole dish evenly, but can be
applied in large patches with gaps between.

>
> Maybe I should switch out the H2 for a small electret.

It would be better to use a large diaphragm electret (or a cluster of
small capsules if you want to build your own). The smaller an electret
diaphragm, the more susceptible it is to Brownian noise and the lower
the signal it delivers to its internal pre-amp. You need to capture as
much of the energy in the air as possible to get above the unavoidable
noise level.

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www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 12/6/21 5:24 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Dec 2021 10:22:18 GMT, spam@spam.com (Don Pearce) wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 16:38:51 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/5/2021 8:05 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 07:50:33 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/5/2021 2:54 AM, Jake T wrote:
>>>>>> So after several days of tinkering around with the umbrella, waiting
>>>>>> for the right timing (the coyotes I'm listening for don't seem to
>>>>>> howl on cloudy or inclement nights), and trying to navigate around
>>>>>> the neighborly noises, I finally achieved a workable result:
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow that's not too bad at all given your distance. I still think
>>>>> an appreciable amount of the hiss is coming from the H2 internals.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Toby
>>>>
>>>> I would be surprised if the H2's own hiss came even close to an
>>>> outdoor noise level.
>>>>
>>>> d
>>>>
>>>
>>> The white noise I hear is so uniform and constant that it
>>> makes me think of the preamp noise I've heard from the H2.
>>> I get that there is a ton of ambient noise, but I'll bet the
>>> H2 is at or near full gain, and it just doesn't have the
>>> preamps and/or maybe the mics to run that way without stomping
>>> over the content a bit with some hiss.
>>>
>>>
>> I just had a listen, and you are right. There's a lot of electronic
>> hiss in there.

That's because I had to use noise reduction on the original. If I had
eliminated any more, there would have been a lot more artifacts. That
was about the most I could do.

>>
>> But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
>> microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
>> clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
>> can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
>> contributing essentially nothing to this recording.

Take a listen to my frequency sweep file I posted.
https://sndup.net/7vms There's definitely gain with most in the 2-3 Khz
range and drops off below and above that. No compression was used on
that file (or NR) with gain at around 70%. During coyote capture with
the H2, I did use compressor 1 with gain about 70% of max. It was set
at the 90 degree pattern with the front facing the dish. Still somewhat
of a strain, but a lot better than any of my earlier efforts without the
dish and also without realizing the coyote bearing.

>> d
>
> Typo - stereo sound field
>
> d
>

On 06/12/2021 10:22, Don Pearce wrote:

> But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
> microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
> clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
> can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
> contributing essentially nothing to this recording.
>
As he is using very nearly coincident cardioids, both will be nearly at
the sweet spot, but pointing in different directions. This may be what
is causing your confusion. Both should be "seeing" a slightly reduced
centre signal, as well as what they "see" along their axes.

While the reflector will concentrate a direct line along the axis more
than sound coming in from an angle, it is not a sharp cutoff, especially
if the mic is pointing off axis.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

> But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
> microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
> clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
> can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
> contributing essentially nothing to this recording.

The H2 has a stereo pair on the front and another on the back. The pair
on the LCD side is supposed to be a 90 degree pickup pattern while it's
said to be 120 degrees on the back. Jake, which are you using?

On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 08:56:42 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:

>> But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
>> microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
>> clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
>> can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
>> contributing essentially nothing to this recording.
>
>The H2 has a stereo pair on the front and another on the back. The pair
>on the LCD side is supposed to be a 90 degree pickup pattern while it's
>said to be 120 degrees on the back. Jake, which are you using?

I know all about the H2. But to make a reflector work you need one
microphone pointing into it, not two microphones aimed off to the
sides. Doing that results in virtually zero gain and directivity.

d

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On 12/6/21 2:16 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 08:56:42 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
>
>>> But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
>>> microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
>>> clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
>>> can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
>>> contributing essentially nothing to this recording.
>>
>> The H2 has a stereo pair on the front and another on the back. The pair
>> on the LCD side is supposed to be a 90 degree pickup pattern while it's
>> said to be 120 degrees on the back. Jake, which are you using?
>
> I know all about the H2. But to make a reflector work you need one
> microphone pointing into it, not two microphones aimed off to the
> sides. Doing that results in virtually zero gain and directivity.
>
> d
>

I don't know, Don, it seems to work for me. Last night, I was
attempting another capture even though it was cloudy (the coyotes tend
not to howl if cloudy or inclement). Where I have the dish pointed
right now is between two houses (one has a driveway), the best I can
get. As i was monitoring, one neighbor came out and stood around his
car. He began to talk on his cell. Unintentionally of course, I could
hear both him and everything the person he was talking to said. He was
a good 100 feet away. By ear, I could hear him but not make out
anything the cell person was saying.

I was having trouble late last week when it did seem like I wasn't doing
any better with the dish. Someone had suggested reorienting the H2
vertically instead of horizontally like I had it and a world of
difference. I admit there probably isn't ideal gain, especially since
the umbrella is far from a true parabola, but it has a made a difference
for me with this set up. Birds, especially are amplified many times!

On 11/30/21 12:57 PM, Jake T wrote:
> Hi,  I have a question for this knowledgeable group.  I'm attempting to
> capture some coyote barks and howls using my old Zoom H2 recorder.  The
> problem I'm having is that these animals are probably at least 1/2 mi
> away.  I have captured some howls last evening, but the sound is not
> much above the background noise and has been difficult to filter so far.
>  Unfortunately, they are located on private properly and I wouldn't be
> able to get any closer.  What could I do on my end?  Thank you.

Bit the bullet and asked the lawn mower man if I could attach the H2 to
his fence and he said yes! Of course, it won't be clear again for a
week but not important. This will put me a lot closer to the coyotes.

Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:

> On 12/6/21 2:16 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
> > On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 08:56:42 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
> >
> >>> But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
> >>> microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
> >>> clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
> >>> can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
> >>> contributing essentially nothing to this recording.
> >>
> >> The H2 has a stereo pair on the front and another on the back. The pair
> >> on the LCD side is supposed to be a 90 degree pickup pattern while it's
> >> said to be 120 degrees on the back. Jake, which are you using?
> >
> > I know all about the H2. But to make a reflector work you need one
> > microphone pointing into it, not two microphones aimed off to the
> > sides. Doing that results in virtually zero gain and directivity.
> >
> > d
> >
>
> I don't know, Don, it seems to work for me. Last night, I was
> attempting another capture even though it was cloudy (the coyotes tend
> not to howl if cloudy or inclement). Where I have the dish pointed
> right now is between two houses (one has a driveway), the best I can
> get. As i was monitoring, one neighbor came out and stood around his
> car. He began to talk on his cell. Unintentionally of course, I could
> hear both him and everything the person he was talking to said. He was
> a good 100 feet away. By ear, I could hear him but not make out
> anything the cell person was saying.
>
> I was having trouble late last week when it did seem like I wasn't doing
> any better with the dish. Someone had suggested reorienting the H2
> vertically instead of horizontally like I had it and a world of
> difference. I admit there probably isn't ideal gain, especially since
> the umbrella is far from a true parabola, but it has a made a difference
> for me with this set up. Birds, especially are amplified many times!

It's reflecting high frequencies and letting through low ones. You need
something more solid for the frequency range you are trying to capture.

--
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(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:16:24 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:

>On 12/6/21 2:16 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 08:56:42 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
>>>> microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
>>>> clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
>>>> can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
>>>> contributing essentially nothing to this recording.
>>>
>>> The H2 has a stereo pair on the front and another on the back. The pair
>>> on the LCD side is supposed to be a 90 degree pickup pattern while it's
>>> said to be 120 degrees on the back. Jake, which are you using?
>>
>> I know all about the H2. But to make a reflector work you need one
>> microphone pointing into it, not two microphones aimed off to the
>> sides. Doing that results in virtually zero gain and directivity.
>>
>> d
>>
>
>I don't know, Don, it seems to work for me. Last night, I was
>attempting another capture even though it was cloudy (the coyotes tend
>not to howl if cloudy or inclement). Where I have the dish pointed
>right now is between two houses (one has a driveway), the best I can
>get. As i was monitoring, one neighbor came out and stood around his
>car. He began to talk on his cell. Unintentionally of course, I could
>hear both him and everything the person he was talking to said. He was
>a good 100 feet away. By ear, I could hear him but not make out
>anything the cell person was saying.
>
>I was having trouble late last week when it did seem like I wasn't doing
>any better with the dish. Someone had suggested reorienting the H2
>vertically instead of horizontally like I had it and a world of
>difference. I admit there probably isn't ideal gain, especially since
>the umbrella is far from a true parabola, but it has a made a difference
>for me with this set up. Birds, especially are amplified many times!

I think it's time for a more objective experiment. Set up things your
normal way and record for a minute or so. Make sure you have disabled
any automatic gain control. Then turn the H2 round so it is facing the
coyotes, not the umbrella. Furl the umbrella if you can, but don't let
anything else move. Now record another minute.
If you could do that and post the result, that would be great.

d

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On 12/7/21 4:51 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:16:24 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12/6/21 2:16 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 08:56:42 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
>>>>> microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
>>>>> clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
>>>>> can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
>>>>> contributing essentially nothing to this recording.
>>>>
>>>> The H2 has a stereo pair on the front and another on the back. The pair
>>>> on the LCD side is supposed to be a 90 degree pickup pattern while it's
>>>> said to be 120 degrees on the back. Jake, which are you using?
>>>
>>> I know all about the H2. But to make a reflector work you need one
>>> microphone pointing into it, not two microphones aimed off to the
>>> sides. Doing that results in virtually zero gain and directivity.
>>>
>>> d
>>>
>>
>> I don't know, Don, it seems to work for me. Last night, I was
>> attempting another capture even though it was cloudy (the coyotes tend
>> not to howl if cloudy or inclement). Where I have the dish pointed
>> right now is between two houses (one has a driveway), the best I can
>> get. As i was monitoring, one neighbor came out and stood around his
>> car. He began to talk on his cell. Unintentionally of course, I could
>> hear both him and everything the person he was talking to said. He was
>> a good 100 feet away. By ear, I could hear him but not make out
>> anything the cell person was saying.
>>
>> I was having trouble late last week when it did seem like I wasn't doing
>> any better with the dish. Someone had suggested reorienting the H2
>> vertically instead of horizontally like I had it and a world of
>> difference. I admit there probably isn't ideal gain, especially since
>> the umbrella is far from a true parabola, but it has a made a difference
>> for me with this set up. Birds, especially are amplified many times!
>
> I think it's time for a more objective experiment. Set up things your
> normal way and record for a minute or so. Make sure you have disabled
> any automatic gain control. Then turn the H2 round so it is facing the
> coyotes, not the umbrella. Furl the umbrella if you can, but don't let
> anything else move. Now record another minute.
> If you could do that and post the result, that would be great.
>
> d
>

Ok, just to be sure I'm reading this right, you want me to do testing
first with the H2 mics facing into the umbrella as I have been doing,
then with the H2 mics facing away from the umbrella? Since the coyotes
only sound off once a night and only for about a minute, I could set up
the frequency sweep and do it sometime today if the weather cooperates
or tomorrow.

On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 07:00:53 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:

>On 12/7/21 4:51 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:16:24 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/6/21 2:16 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 08:56:42 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
>>>>>> microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
>>>>>> clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
>>>>>> can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
>>>>>> contributing essentially nothing to this recording.
>>>>>
>>>>> The H2 has a stereo pair on the front and another on the back. The pair
>>>>> on the LCD side is supposed to be a 90 degree pickup pattern while it's
>>>>> said to be 120 degrees on the back. Jake, which are you using?
>>>>
>>>> I know all about the H2. But to make a reflector work you need one
>>>> microphone pointing into it, not two microphones aimed off to the
>>>> sides. Doing that results in virtually zero gain and directivity.
>>>>
>>>> d
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know, Don, it seems to work for me. Last night, I was
>>> attempting another capture even though it was cloudy (the coyotes tend
>>> not to howl if cloudy or inclement). Where I have the dish pointed
>>> right now is between two houses (one has a driveway), the best I can
>>> get. As i was monitoring, one neighbor came out and stood around his
>>> car. He began to talk on his cell. Unintentionally of course, I could
>>> hear both him and everything the person he was talking to said. He was
>>> a good 100 feet away. By ear, I could hear him but not make out
>>> anything the cell person was saying.
>>>
>>> I was having trouble late last week when it did seem like I wasn't doing
>>> any better with the dish. Someone had suggested reorienting the H2
>>> vertically instead of horizontally like I had it and a world of
>>> difference. I admit there probably isn't ideal gain, especially since
>>> the umbrella is far from a true parabola, but it has a made a difference
>>> for me with this set up. Birds, especially are amplified many times!
>>
>> I think it's time for a more objective experiment. Set up things your
>> normal way and record for a minute or so. Make sure you have disabled
>> any automatic gain control. Then turn the H2 round so it is facing the
>> coyotes, not the umbrella. Furl the umbrella if you can, but don't let
>> anything else move. Now record another minute.
>> If you could do that and post the result, that would be great.
>>
>> d
>>
>
>Ok, just to be sure I'm reading this right, you want me to do testing
>first with the H2 mics facing into the umbrella as I have been doing,
>then with the H2 mics facing away from the umbrella? Since the coyotes
>only sound off once a night and only for about a minute, I could set up
>the frequency sweep and do it sometime today if the weather cooperates
>or tomorrow.

That's it. - I don't know what frequency sweep you are talking about
though. The idea of this experiment is to make two recordings, one
with the umbrella and one without. Obviously for the one without, the
H2 needs to be facing the coyotes. No problem with doing this on
successive nights. Disabling automatic gain is vital though, as is
making sure the level setting is identical both times - maybe just max
it.

d

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On 12/7/21 7:32 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 07:00:53 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12/7/21 4:51 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:16:24 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/6/21 2:16 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 08:56:42 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
>>>>>>> microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
>>>>>>> clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
>>>>>>> can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
>>>>>>> contributing essentially nothing to this recording.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The H2 has a stereo pair on the front and another on the back. The pair
>>>>>> on the LCD side is supposed to be a 90 degree pickup pattern while it's
>>>>>> said to be 120 degrees on the back. Jake, which are you using?
>>>>>
>>>>> I know all about the H2. But to make a reflector work you need one
>>>>> microphone pointing into it, not two microphones aimed off to the
>>>>> sides. Doing that results in virtually zero gain and directivity.
>>>>>
>>>>> d
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know, Don, it seems to work for me. Last night, I was
>>>> attempting another capture even though it was cloudy (the coyotes tend
>>>> not to howl if cloudy or inclement). Where I have the dish pointed
>>>> right now is between two houses (one has a driveway), the best I can
>>>> get. As i was monitoring, one neighbor came out and stood around his
>>>> car. He began to talk on his cell. Unintentionally of course, I could
>>>> hear both him and everything the person he was talking to said. He was
>>>> a good 100 feet away. By ear, I could hear him but not make out
>>>> anything the cell person was saying.
>>>>
>>>> I was having trouble late last week when it did seem like I wasn't doing
>>>> any better with the dish. Someone had suggested reorienting the H2
>>>> vertically instead of horizontally like I had it and a world of
>>>> difference. I admit there probably isn't ideal gain, especially since
>>>> the umbrella is far from a true parabola, but it has a made a difference
>>>> for me with this set up. Birds, especially are amplified many times!
>>>
>>> I think it's time for a more objective experiment. Set up things your
>>> normal way and record for a minute or so. Make sure you have disabled
>>> any automatic gain control. Then turn the H2 round so it is facing the
>>> coyotes, not the umbrella. Furl the umbrella if you can, but don't let
>>> anything else move. Now record another minute.
>>> If you could do that and post the result, that would be great.
>>>
>>> d
>>>
>>
>> Ok, just to be sure I'm reading this right, you want me to do testing
>> first with the H2 mics facing into the umbrella as I have been doing,
>> then with the H2 mics facing away from the umbrella? Since the coyotes
>> only sound off once a night and only for about a minute, I could set up
>> the frequency sweep and do it sometime today if the weather cooperates
>> or tomorrow.
>
> That's it. - I don't know what frequency sweep you are talking about
> though. The idea of this experiment is to make two recordings, one
> with the umbrella and one without. Obviously for the one without, the
> H2 needs to be facing the coyotes. No problem with doing this on
> successive nights. Disabling automatic gain is vital though, as is
> making sure the level setting is identical both times - maybe just max
> it.
>
> d
>

The frequency sweep would come from an oscillator placed 100 feet or so
away and sweeping from around 200 Hz to 10 Khz. I'll try the experiment
today, but I doubt the wind's going to cooperate but will get to it when
I can. I could try it indoors, but I don't think I can achieve enough
distance as I live in a small rancher so the most I could achieve would
be 15 feet or so.

On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 08:08:53 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com> wrote:

>>>>
>>>
>>> Ok, just to be sure I'm reading this right, you want me to do testing
>>> first with the H2 mics facing into the umbrella as I have been doing,
>>> then with the H2 mics facing away from the umbrella? Since the coyotes
>>> only sound off once a night and only for about a minute, I could set up
>>> the frequency sweep and do it sometime today if the weather cooperates
>>> or tomorrow.
>>
>> That's it. - I don't know what frequency sweep you are talking about
>> though. The idea of this experiment is to make two recordings, one
>> with the umbrella and one without. Obviously for the one without, the
>> H2 needs to be facing the coyotes. No problem with doing this on
>> successive nights. Disabling automatic gain is vital though, as is
>> making sure the level setting is identical both times - maybe just max
>> it.
>>
>> d
>>
>
>The frequency sweep would come from an oscillator placed 100 feet or so
>away and sweeping from around 200 Hz to 10 Khz. I'll try the experiment
>today, but I doubt the wind's going to cooperate but will get to it when
>I can. I could try it indoors, but I don't think I can achieve enough
>distance as I live in a small rancher so the most I could achieve would
>be 15 feet or so.

Got you. No, do it outside - indoors won't work because of all the
reflections off the walls. The swept oscillator is a good idea.

d

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On 12/6/21 11:16 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 08:56:42 -0800, Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> wrote:
>
>>> But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
>>> microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
>>> clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
>>> can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
>>> contributing essentially nothing to this recording.
>>
>> The H2 has a stereo pair on the front and another on the back. The pair
>> on the LCD side is supposed to be a 90 degree pickup pattern while it's
>> said to be 120 degrees on the back. Jake, which are you using?
>
> I know all about the H2. But to make a reflector work you need one
> microphone pointing into it, not two microphones aimed off to the
> sides. Doing that results in virtually zero gain and directivity.
>
> d
>

I don't think you necessarily need just one mic
pointed toward the center of the parabola. Think
about a parabolic reflector used in a flashlight.
The source of light goes out in all directions from the bulb, but
any light that hits the parabola bounces off in the same unified
direction.

The same should work for the mics in reverse. Any sound that
comes straight into the parabola would get focused
down to the focal point, but from all of the different points
of the dish at once. The sound would be coming in
from many different directions. The H2 professes 90 degree
pickup from the front, which should be ok. Now I'm
thinking even using the rear pair with the 120 degree
pickup would be interesting to compare as well.

Toby

On 07/12/2021 16:54, Tobiah wrote:

>
> I don't think you necessarily need just one mic
> pointed toward the center of the parabola. Think
> about a parabolic reflector used in a flashlight.
> The source of light goes out in all directions from the bulb, but
> any light that hits the parabola bounces off in the same unified
> direction.
>
A better analogy would be a pair of filaments in two closely spaced
bulbs. You get an elliptical cross section beam with the longest axis
defined by the locations of the bulbs.

In the OP's case, if the recorder were mounted on its side with the mics
aimed at the subject, the sky and the ground would form a larger part of
the sound field, so while aircraft may be a slightly larger problem, it
would slightly reduce the gain for cars and TVs which are off axis.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 7:33:37 AM UTC-5, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 07:00:53 -0500, Jake T <jake...@steak.com> wrote:
>
> >On 12/7/21 4:51 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
> >> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:16:24 -0500, Jake T <jake...@steak.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 12/6/21 2:16 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 08:56:42 -0800, Tobiah <to...@tobiah.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> But I don't understand why I'm seeing a stereo signal. Only one
> >>>>>> microphone from the pair can be pointed into the reflector and it is
> >>>>>> clear that both are getting about the same amount of signal. And as I
> >>>>>> can hear a stereo sound filed I'm going to say that the reflector is
> >>>>>> contributing essentially nothing to this recording.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The H2 has a stereo pair on the front and another on the back. The pair
> >>>>> on the LCD side is supposed to be a 90 degree pickup pattern while it's
> >>>>> said to be 120 degrees on the back. Jake, which are you using?
> >>>>
> >>>> I know all about the H2. But to make a reflector work you need one
> >>>> microphone pointing into it, not two microphones aimed off to the
> >>>> sides. Doing that results in virtually zero gain and directivity.
> >>>>
> >>>> d
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I don't know, Don, it seems to work for me. Last night, I was
> >>> attempting another capture even though it was cloudy (the coyotes tend
> >>> not to howl if cloudy or inclement). Where I have the dish pointed
> >>> right now is between two houses (one has a driveway), the best I can
> >>> get. As i was monitoring, one neighbor came out and stood around his
> >>> car. He began to talk on his cell. Unintentionally of course, I could
> >>> hear both him and everything the person he was talking to said. He was
> >>> a good 100 feet away. By ear, I could hear him but not make out
> >>> anything the cell person was saying.
> >>>
> >>> I was having trouble late last week when it did seem like I wasn't doing
> >>> any better with the dish. Someone had suggested reorienting the H2
> >>> vertically instead of horizontally like I had it and a world of
> >>> difference. I admit there probably isn't ideal gain, especially since
> >>> the umbrella is far from a true parabola, but it has a made a difference
> >>> for me with this set up. Birds, especially are amplified many times!
> >>
> >> I think it's time for a more objective experiment. Set up things your
> >> normal way and record for a minute or so. Make sure you have disabled
> >> any automatic gain control. Then turn the H2 round so it is facing the
> >> coyotes, not the umbrella. Furl the umbrella if you can, but don't let
> >> anything else move. Now record another minute.
> >> If you could do that and post the result, that would be great.
> >>
> >> d
> >>
> >
> >Ok, just to be sure I'm reading this right, you want me to do testing
> >first with the H2 mics facing into the umbrella as I have been doing,
> >then with the H2 mics facing away from the umbrella? Since the coyotes
> >only sound off once a night and only for about a minute, I could set up
> >the frequency sweep and do it sometime today if the weather cooperates
> >or tomorrow.
> That's it. - I don't know what frequency sweep you are talking about
> though. The idea of this experiment is to make two recordings, one
> with the umbrella and one without. Obviously for the one without, the
> H2 needs to be facing the coyotes. No problem with doing this on
> successive nights. Disabling automatic gain is vital though, as is
> making sure the level setting is identical both times - maybe just max
> it.
> d
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
_________________________

"maybe just max it."

That's the worst thing to do

On 07/12/2021 19:34, John Williamson wrote:

> In the OP's case, if the recorder were mounted on its side with the mics
> aimed at the subject

"aimed at the parabola"

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 07/12/2021 19:48, Chris K-Man wrote:
"maybe just max it."
>
> That's the worst thing to do
>
In this case, "maxing it" refers to setting the gain of the recorder
preamplifiers at maximum to make the best of a very low level signal.

What would also help slightly would be to make the recordings on a cold
night to minimise thermal and Brownian motion noise.

Maximising the gain of the pre-amps reduces the amount of noise being
amplified when editing the result.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 19:59:36 +0000, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On 07/12/2021 19:48, Chris K-Man wrote:
>"maybe just max it."
>>
>> That's the worst thing to do
>>
>In this case, "maxing it" refers to setting the gain of the recorder
>preamplifiers at maximum to make the best of a very low level signal.
>
>What would also help slightly would be to make the recordings on a cold
>night to minimise thermal and Brownian motion noise.
>
>Maximising the gain of the pre-amps reduces the amount of noise being
>amplified when editing the result.

I really said max the gain as n easy way of making sure it hadn't
changed between runs.

d

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On 07/12/2021 20:03, Don Pearce wrote:

> I really said max the gain as n easy way of making sure it hadn't
> changed between runs.
>
> d
>
That too, but the k-man got the wrong end of the stick as usual.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.