I have this odd feeling that the French language is missing something...
I can't quite put my finger on it...
Oh, that's it: a recent, comprehensive, linguistically informed,
descriptive grammar. Like, say, Huddleston/Pullum for English.
Even German got a new Duden Grammar, rewritten from scratch by a
new generation of linguists.
All that French has got is Grevisse, which has been re-edited since
1936. (Though it has acquired a descriptive bent along the way,
if you actually bother to read it.)

Fret no more, the gap has been filled. Published on Oct 6, 2021,
there is now _La Grande Grammaire du Français_, edited by Anne
Abeillé and Danièle Godard. Just to prove that French *is* more
complex than English, it comes in at some 2,600 pages that had to
be split across two volumes for a combined 4.7 kg.

My copy arrived today. I have barely cracked it open yet. I'm
sure there are numerous reviews to be found in the French media.
They've even set up a public debate for December 9. I imagine some
pearl clutching at the idea that somebody dared to describe French
as she is spoke, rather than how it should be spoken. 90% of spoken
negations lack the "ne". The horror, THE HORROR! You know how it
goes.

Here's the main web site, which has been mostly unreachable for me
over the last few days:
http://www.llf.cnrs.fr/fr/ggf

The hardcover edition is 89 euros at FNAC, Amazon, etc.
You can also buy an online subscription at 39 euros per year.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 9:30:07 PM UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> Here's the main web site, which has been mostly unreachable for me
> over the last few days:
> http://www.llf.cnrs.fr/fr/ggf
>
> The hardcover edition is 89 euros at FNAC, Amazon, etc.
> You can also buy an online subscription at 39 euros per year.

You forgot to mention that it is also available "en versions numériques (epub,
pdf ". Publishing paper books this size in my opinion is crazy. And a crime
against treeanity.

Le mardi 12 octobre 2021 à 21:30:07 UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber a écrit :
> I have this odd feeling that the French language is missing something...
> I can't quite put my finger on it...
> Oh, that's it: a recent, comprehensive, linguistically informed,
> descriptive grammar. Like, say, Huddleston/Pullum for English.
> Even German got a new Duden Grammar, rewritten from scratch by a
> new generation of linguists.
> All that French has got is Grevisse, which has been re-edited since
> 1936. (Though it has acquired a descriptive bent along the way,
> if you actually bother to read it.)
>
> Fret no more, the gap has been filled. Published on Oct 6, 2021,
> there is now _La Grande Grammaire du Français_, edited by Anne
> Abeillé and Danièle Godard. Just to prove that French *is* more
> complex than English, it comes in at some 2,600 pages that had to
> be split across two volumes for a combined 4.7 kg.
>
> My copy arrived today. I have barely cracked it open yet. I'm
> sure there are numerous reviews to be found in the French media.
> They've even set up a public debate for December 9. I imagine some
> pearl clutching at the idea that somebody dared to describe French
> as she is spoke, rather than how it should be spoken. 90% of spoken
> negations lack the "ne". The horror, THE HORROR! You know how it
> goes.
>
> Here's the main web site, which has been mostly unreachable for me
> over the last few days:
> http://www.llf.cnrs.fr/fr/ggf
>
> The hardcover edition is 89 euros at FNAC, Amazon, etc.
> You can also buy an online subscription at 39 euros per year.

An interesting point is their framework.
It seems to use traditional terminology, possibly with more precision than usual.

Op 13/10/2021 om 8:10 schreef Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups
<google@rudhar.com>:
> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 9:30:07 PM UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> Here's the main web site, which has been mostly unreachable for me
>> over the last few days:
>> http://www.llf.cnrs.fr/fr/ggf
>>
>> The hardcover edition is 89 euros at FNAC, Amazon, etc.
>> You can also buy an online subscription at 39 euros per year.
>
> You forgot to mention that it is also available "en versions numériques (epub,
> pdf ". Publishing paper books this size in my opinion is crazy. And a crime > against treeanity.

Wood can be, should be renewable. Publishing in the cloud is also very
energy and equipment resources-consuming, and not all are renewable
and/or ecologically disposable.

--
guido wugi

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:10:12 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 9:30:07 PM UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> > Here's the main web site, which has been mostly unreachable for me
> > over the last few days:
> > http://www.llf.cnrs.fr/fr/ggf
> > The hardcover edition is 89 euros at FNAC, Amazon, etc.
> > You can also buy an online subscription at 39 euros per year.
>
> You forgot to mention that it is also available "en versions numériques (epub,

What else would an "online subscription" be?

> pdf ". Publishing paper books this size in my opinion is crazy. And a crime
> against treeanity.

2000 pages viewable only one at a time? Insanity.

Especially if it has endnotes.

And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
a term to get one that might be relevant.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:01:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:10:12 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 9:30:07 PM UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
> > > Here's the main web site, which has been mostly unreachable for me
> > > over the last few days:
> > > http://www.llf.cnrs.fr/fr/ggf
> > > The hardcover edition is 89 euros at FNAC, Amazon, etc.
> > > You can also buy an online subscription at 39 euros per year.
> >
> > You forgot to mention that it is also available "en versions numériques (epub,

> What else would an "online subscription" be?

The right to look things up on a website. That's very different
from downloading the whole book as an ePub, and reading
it on your own computer or e-book reader, whatever is most
convenient.

> > pdf ". Publishing paper books this size in my opinion is crazy. And a crime
> > against treeanity.
> 2000 pages viewable only one at a time? Insanity.

There are several options in e-book readers, like two
page side-by-side, four on one screen, six, etc.
> Especially if it has endnotes.

Endnotes are cumbersome in a paper book too. I don't know
how they work in ePub (I only ever read novels in that format),
but, as ePub is compressed XHTML, it's probably done by
clicking a link, and going back to where you came from
when done.

> And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
> not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
> a term to get one that might be relevant.

And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
anything is possible. I realised that here:
https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 11:30:31 AM UTC+2, wugi wrote:
> Op 13/10/2021 om 8:10 schreef Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups
> > You forgot to mention that it is also available "en versions numériques (epub,
> > pdf ". Publishing paper books this size in my opinion is crazy. And a crime > against treeanity.

> Wood can be, should be renewable. Publishing in the cloud is also very
> energy and equipment resources-consuming, and not all are renewable
> and/or ecologically disposable.

Keeping some e-books online for download, just a few megabyte each,
doesn't need to cost much electricity. Paper production, printing, binding,
and transport could only cost a lot more.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:58:53 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:01:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
> > not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
> > a term to get one that might be relevant.

> And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
> anything is possible. I realised that here:
> https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
> for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.

Note that the many references to for example §161 are all different,
and get the clicker directly to the relevant spot. So they do not have
to search for it themselves, in that lenghthy paragraph.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 10:58:53 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:01:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:10:12 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 9:30:07 PM UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> >
> > > > Here's the main web site, which has been mostly unreachable for me
> > > > over the last few days:
> > > > http://www.llf.cnrs.fr/fr/ggf
> > > > The hardcover edition is 89 euros at FNAC, Amazon, etc.
> > > > You can also buy an online subscription at 39 euros per year.
> > >
> > > You forgot to mention that it is also available "en versions numériques (epub,
>
> > What else would an "online subscription" be?
> The right to look things up on a website. That's very different
> from downloading the whole book as an ePub, and reading
> it on your own computer or e-book reader, whatever is most
> convenient.
> > > pdf ". Publishing paper books this size in my opinion is crazy. And a crime
> > > against treeanity.
> > 2000 pages viewable only one at a time? Insanity.
> There are several options in e-book readers, like two
> page side-by-side, four on one screen, six, etc.
> > Especially if it has endnotes.
> Endnotes are cumbersome in a paper book too. I don't know
> how they work in ePub (I only ever read novels in that format),
> but, as ePub is compressed XHTML, it's probably done by
> clicking a link, and going back to where you came from
> when done.
> > And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
> > not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
> > a term to get one that might be relevant.
> And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
> anything is possible. I realised that here:
> https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
> for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.

What all of that says is that whoever came up with this cockamamie
invention had no concept of the "glance."

For novels, fine.

For serious reading/research? No.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 11:07:02 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:58:53 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:01:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > > And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
> > > not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
> > > a term to get one that might be relevant.
> > And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
> > anything is possible. I realised that here:
> > https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
> > for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.
>
> Note that the many references to for example §161 are all different,
> and get the clicker directly to the relevant spot. So they do not have
> to search for it themselves, in that lenghthy paragraph.

You sent me to the first page of A's.

Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, ...

You have mentioned before that you do not use books. Maybe you
don't know any better.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 5:28:44 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 11:07:02 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:58:53 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:01:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > > > And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
> > > > not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
> > > > a term to get one that might be relevant.
> > > And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
> > > anything is possible. I realised that here:
> > > https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
> > > for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.
> >
> > Note that the many references to for example §161 are all different,
> > and get the clicker directly to the relevant spot. So they do not have
> > to search for it themselves, in that lenghthy paragraph.
> You sent me to the first page of A's.
>
> Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, ...

I have no idea what you are referring to. Can you be more accurate?
> You have mentioned before that you do not use books. Maybe you
> don't know any better.

Pity you can't see my working room. Some 5 yards of bookshelves,
from bottom to ceiling.

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:59:12 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 5:28:44 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 11:07:02 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:58:53 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:01:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > > > > And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
> > > > > not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
> > > > > a term to get one that might be relevant.
> > > > And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
> > > > anything is possible. I realised that here:
> > > > https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
> > > > for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.
> > >
> > > Note that the many references to for example §161 are all different,
> > > and get the clicker directly to the relevant spot. So they do not have
> > > to search for it themselves, in that lenghthy paragraph.
> > You sent me to the first page of A's.
> >
> > Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, ...
>
> I have no idea what you are referring to. Can you be more accurate?

I am referring to the fact that ebooks (pdfs) are NEVER preferable
to paper books for serious use. I print out chapters. Sometimes
entire books.

> > You have mentioned before that you do not use books. Maybe you
> > don't know any better.
> Pity you can't see my working room. Some 5 yards of bookshelves,
> from bottom to ceiling.

That's one bookcase.

(And we don't use "yards" the way you use "meters" -- we speak of
"feet" of shelving. Few distances are given in yards.)

Thu, 14 Oct 2021 04:49:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:59:12 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 5:28:44 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 11:07:02 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:58:53 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> > > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:01:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >
>> > > > > And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
>> > > > > not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
>> > > > > a term to get one that might be relevant.
>> > > > And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
>> > > > anything is possible. I realised that here:
>> > > > https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
>> > > > for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.
>> > >
>> > > Note that the many references to for example §161 are all different,
>> > > and get the clicker directly to the relevant spot. So they do not have
>> > > to search for it themselves, in that lenghthy paragraph.
>> > You sent me to the first page of A's.
>> >
>> > Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, ...
>>
>> I have no idea what you are referring to. Can you be more accurate?
>
>I am referring to the fact that ebooks (pdfs) are NEVER preferable
>to paper books for serious use. I print out chapters. Sometimes
>entire books.

How does that relate to "You sent me to the first page of A's." Did I?
How? Where?

>> > You have mentioned before that you do not use books. Maybe you
>> > don't know any better.
>> Pity you can't see my working room. Some 5 yards of bookshelves,
>> from bottom to ceiling.
>
>That's one bookcase.

So I should have had more of them?

>(And we don't use "yards" the way you use "meters" -- we speak of
>"feet" of shelving. Few distances are given in yards.)

I don't care. A yard is identical to a meter for inaccurate measures.
And a yard is three feet. I use it, in my kind of English.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Wed, 13 Oct 2021 08:26:56 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 10:58:53 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:01:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:10:12 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> > > On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 9:30:07 PM UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> >
>> > > > Here's the main web site, which has been mostly unreachable for me
>> > > > over the last few days:
>> > > > http://www.llf.cnrs.fr/fr/ggf
>> > > > The hardcover edition is 89 euros at FNAC, Amazon, etc.
>> > > > You can also buy an online subscription at 39 euros per year.
>> > >
>> > > You forgot to mention that it is also available "en versions numériques (epub,
>>
>> > What else would an "online subscription" be?
>> The right to look things up on a website. That's very different
>> from downloading the whole book as an ePub, and reading
>> it on your own computer or e-book reader, whatever is most
>> convenient.
>> > > pdf ". Publishing paper books this size in my opinion is crazy. And a crime
>> > > against treeanity.
>> > 2000 pages viewable only one at a time? Insanity.
>> There are several options in e-book readers, like two
>> page side-by-side, four on one screen, six, etc.
>> > Especially if it has endnotes.
>> Endnotes are cumbersome in a paper book too. I don't know
>> how they work in ePub (I only ever read novels in that format),
>> but, as ePub is compressed XHTML, it's probably done by
>> clicking a link, and going back to where you came from
>> when done.
>> > And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
>> > not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
>> > a term to get one that might be relevant.
>> And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
>> anything is possible. I realised that here:
>> https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
>> for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.
>
>What all of that says is that whoever came up with this cockamamie
>invention had no concept of the "glance."

I glance a lot to, every day. In Wikipedia and elsewhere. Always on my
laptop screen.

>For novels, fine.
>
>For serious reading/research? No.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Wed, 13 Oct 2021 08:26:56 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 10:58:53 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
>> anything is possible. I realised that here:
>> https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
>> for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.
>
>What all of that says is that whoever came up with this cockamamie
>invention had no concept of the "glance."
>
>For novels, fine.
>
>For serious reading/research? No.

I bet scientists younger than you do work differently. Electronic
searching, impossible in paper book, is also very valuable.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Thu, 14 Oct 2021 16:38:10 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>I glance a lot to, every day. In Wikipedia and elsewhere. Always on my
>laptop screen.

to > too.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 10:37:05 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 14 Oct 2021 04:49:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:59:12 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 5:28:44 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 11:07:02 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:58:53 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> > > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:01:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> >> > > > > And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
> >> > > > > not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
> >> > > > > a term to get one that might be relevant.
> >> > > > And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
> >> > > > anything is possible. I realised that here:
> >> > > > https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
> >> > > > for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.
> >> > > Note that the many references to for example §161 are all different,
> >> > > and get the clicker directly to the relevant spot. So they do not have
> >> > > to search for it themselves, in that lenghthy paragraph.
> >> > You sent me to the first page of A's.
> >> > Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, ...
> >> I have no idea what you are referring to. Can you be more accurate?
> >I am referring to the fact that ebooks (pdfs) are NEVER preferable
> >to paper books for serious use. I print out chapters. Sometimes
> >entire books.
>
> How does that relate to "You sent me to the first page of A's." Did I?
> How? Where?

You don't even know what that link you provided just up there links to?

> >> > You have mentioned before that you do not use books. Maybe you
> >> > don't know any better.
> >> Pity you can't see my working room. Some 5 yards of bookshelves,
> >> from bottom to ceiling.
> >That's one bookcase.
>
> So I should have had more of them?

If you were a serious scholar. you would have.

> >(And we don't use "yards" the way you use "meters" -- we speak of
> >"feet" of shelving. Few distances are given in yards.)
>
> I don't care. A yard is identical to a meter for inaccurate measures.
> And a yard is three feet. I use it, in my kind of English.

Some unscrupulous interior decorating firms sell "books by the yard"
for those who wish to have an impressive-looking library. People with
actual (functioning) libraries describe the shelving in feet. AUE has
discussed road signs that are given in (fractions of) miles and (for
very short distances) feet.

Have you ever noticed what IKEA displays on the shelves of its
model bookcases?

Thu, 14 Oct 2021 11:54:55 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 10:37:05 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 14 Oct 2021 04:49:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:59:12 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 5:28:44 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 11:07:02 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> >> > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:58:53 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> >> > > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:01:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> >> > > > > And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
>> >> > > > > not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
>> >> > > > > a term to get one that might be relevant.
>> >> > > > And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
>> >> > > > anything is possible. I realised that here:
>> >> > > > https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
>> >> > > > for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.
>> >> > > Note that the many references to for example §161 are all different,
>> >> > > and get the clicker directly to the relevant spot. So they do not have
>> >> > > to search for it themselves, in that lenghthy paragraph.
>> >> > You sent me to the first page of A's.
>> >> > Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, ...
>> >> I have no idea what you are referring to. Can you be more accurate?
>> >I am referring to the fact that ebooks (pdfs) are NEVER preferable
>> >to paper books for serious use. I print out chapters. Sometimes
>> >entire books.
>>
>> How does that relate to "You sent me to the first page of A's." Did I?
>> How? Where?
>
>You don't even know what that link you provided just up there links to?

I do, very well, I even clearly remember the circumstances while
setting that page. My problem is that it doesn't lead to "the first
page of A's", and that ...
O wait, you already object to having to scroll INSIDE the index. And
how's that in a paper book? You see it all in one glance?

>> >> > You have mentioned before that you do not use books. Maybe you
>> >> > don't know any better.
>> >> Pity you can't see my working room. Some 5 yards of bookshelves,
>> >> from bottom to ceiling.
>> >That's one bookcase.
>>
>> So I should have had more of them?
>
>If you were a serious scholar. you would have.

Good my wife doesn't read this.

>> >(And we don't use "yards" the way you use "meters" -- we speak of
>> >"feet" of shelving. Few distances are given in yards.)
>>
>> I don't care. A yard is identical to a meter for inaccurate measures.
>> And a yard is three feet. I use it, in my kind of English.
>
>Some unscrupulous interior decorating firms sell "books by the yard"
>for those who wish to have an impressive-looking library. People with
>actual (functioning) libraries describe the shelving in feet. AUE has
>discussed road signs that are given in (fractions of) miles and (for
>very short distances) feet.

OK, so mine is 13 feet and almost 10 inches wide, and 7 foot 3 inch
high. O, and there are some CDs. They don't count?

>Have you ever noticed what IKEA displays on the shelves of its
>model bookcases?

Yes, Swedish books. I sometimes try to read them, but it is a
difficult language for me.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On 2021-10-14, Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

> Some unscrupulous interior decorating firms sell "books by the yard"
> for those who wish to have an impressive-looking library. People with
> actual (functioning) libraries describe the shelving in feet. AUE has
> discussed road signs that are given in (fractions of) miles and (for
> very short distances) feet.

Why are you talking in 18th century units?

> Have you ever noticed what IKEA displays on the shelves of its
> model bookcases?

IKEA measures shelves in centimeters.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 3:21:20 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 14 Oct 2021 11:54:55 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
> >On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 10:37:05 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Thu, 14 Oct 2021 04:49:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >> >On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:59:12 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> >> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 5:28:44 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> >> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 11:07:02 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> >> > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:58:53 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> >> > > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:01:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> >> >> > > > > And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
> >> >> > > > > not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
> >> >> > > > > a term to get one that might be relevant.
> >> >> > > > And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
> >> >> > > > anything is possible. I realised that here:
> >> >> > > > https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
> >> >> > > > for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.
> >> >> > > Note that the many references to for example §161 are all different,
> >> >> > > and get the clicker directly to the relevant spot. So they do not have
> >> >> > > to search for it themselves, in that lenghthy paragraph.
> >> >> > You sent me to the first page of A's.
> >> >> > Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, ...
> >> >> I have no idea what you are referring to. Can you be more accurate?
> >> >I am referring to the fact that ebooks (pdfs) are NEVER preferable
> >> >to paper books for serious use. I print out chapters. Sometimes
> >> >entire books.
> >>
> >> How does that relate to "You sent me to the first page of A's." Did I?
> >> How? Where?
> >
> >You don't even know what that link you provided just up there links to?
> I do, very well, I even clearly remember the circumstances while
> setting that page. My problem is that it doesn't lead to "the first
> page of A's", and that ...
>
> O wait, you already object to having to scroll INSIDE the index. And
> how's that in a paper book? You see it all in one glance?

I can put my finger 10 pages later and flip to it, while keeping another
finger in the first spot. Maybe I want to see how the references to
"Phoneme" line up with the references to "Alphabet." How often do
they appear on the same page?

> >> >> > You have mentioned before that you do not use books. Maybe you
> >> >> > don't know any better.
> >> >> Pity you can't see my working room. Some 5 yards of bookshelves,
> >> >> from bottom to ceiling.
> >> >That's one bookcase.
> >> So I should have had more of them?
> >If you were a serious scholar. you would have.
>
> Good my wife doesn't read this.

Does she also think you're not a serious scholar?

> >> >(And we don't use "yards" the way you use "meters" -- we speak of
> >> >"feet" of shelving. Few distances are given in yards.)
> >> I don't care. A yard is identical to a meter for inaccurate measures.
> >> And a yard is three feet. I use it, in my kind of English.
> >Some unscrupulous interior decorating firms sell "books by the yard"
> >for those who wish to have an impressive-looking library. People with
> >actual (functioning) libraries describe the shelving in feet. AUE has
> >discussed road signs that are given in (fractions of) miles and (for
> >very short distances) feet.
>
> OK, so mine is 13 feet and almost 10 inches wide, and 7 foot 3 inch
> high. O, and there are some CDs. They don't count?

My CDs are in another room and have their own bookcases.

> >Have you ever noticed what IKEA displays on the shelves of its
> >model bookcases?
>
> Yes, Swedish books. I sometimes try to read them, but it is a
> difficult language for me.

Dozens of copies of each. My guess is that they're publishers'
remainders that didn't sell, so you're probably not missing much.

And old encyclopedias with pretty bindings.

They had no way of selling me an "A" volume that had a pretty
good article on "Alphabet."

On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2021-10-14, Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Some unscrupulous interior decorating firms sell "books by the yard"
> > for those who wish to have an impressive-looking library. People with
> > actual (functioning) libraries describe the shelving in feet. AUE has
> > discussed road signs that are given in (fractions of) miles and (for
> > very short distances) feet.
>
> Why are you talking in 18th century units?

Those are the units used in this country.

> > Have you ever noticed what IKEA displays on the shelves of its
> > model bookcases?
>
> IKEA measures shelves in centimeters.

My Billys are 36" (inches).

Thu, 14 Oct 2021 14:32:26 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>> O wait, you already object to having to scroll INSIDE the index. And
>> how's that in a paper book? You see it all in one glance?
>
>I can put my finger 10 pages later and flip to it, while keeping another
>finger in the first spot.

Yes. With hyperlinks, the computer does that for you. How convenient!

>Maybe I want to see how the references to "Phoneme" line up with the
>references to "Alphabet." How often do they appear on the same page?

In a browser, you can open each in a different tab. Unfortunately the
good old MDI (multi document interface), which let you see both side
by side, has been abandoned by most modern software including
browsers. I think Opera kept it around for quite a while. I never
understood why it had to go.

>> >> >> > You have mentioned before that you do not use books. Maybe you
>> >> >> > don't know any better.
>> >> >> Pity you can't see my working room. Some 5 yards of bookshelves,
>> >> >> from bottom to ceiling.
>> >> >That's one bookcase.
>> >> So I should have had more of them?
>> >If you were a serious scholar. you would have.
>>
>> Good my wife doesn't read this.
>
>Does she also think you're not a serious scholar?

She does, and doesn't care.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Thu, 14 Oct 2021 14:33:54 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:30:08 PM UTC-4, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> On 2021-10-14, Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Some unscrupulous interior decorating firms sell "books by the yard"
>> > for those who wish to have an impressive-looking library. People with
>> > actual (functioning) libraries describe the shelving in feet. AUE has
>> > discussed road signs that are given in (fractions of) miles and (for
>> > very short distances) feet.
>>
>> Why are you talking in 18th century units?
>
>Those are the units used in this country.
>
>> > Have you ever noticed what IKEA displays on the shelves of its
>> > model bookcases?
>>
>> IKEA measures shelves in centimeters.
>
>My Billys are 36" (inches).

Wow! I have the same bookcases as Peter T. Daniels. IKEA unites the
world, and creates a common and shared world-culture! Perhaps George
Soros should sponsor them!?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 2:54:56 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 10:37:05 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Thu, 14 Oct 2021 04:49:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> > <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> > >On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:59:12 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > >> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 5:28:44 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >> > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 11:07:02 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > >> > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 4:58:53 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> > >> > > > On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 2:01:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > >> > > > > And one might like to consult the bibliography and the index -- no,
> > >> > > > > not a "Find" command, so one has to look at 50 occurrences of
> > >> > > > > a term to get one that might be relevant.
> > >> > > > And why would an electronic book not have that? Technically,
> > >> > > > anything is possible. I realised that here:
> > >> > > > https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/gramiaan/gramiaan.htm#Index
> > >> > > > for what was originally a paper book published in 1951 and 1971.
> > >> > > Note that the many references to for example §161 are all different,
> > >> > > and get the clicker directly to the relevant spot. So they do not have
> > >> > > to search for it themselves, in that lenghthy paragraph.
> > >> > You sent me to the first page of A's.
> > >> > Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, ...
> > >> I have no idea what you are referring to. Can you be more accurate?
> > >I am referring to the fact that ebooks (pdfs) are NEVER preferable
> > >to paper books for serious use. I print out chapters. Sometimes
> > >entire books.
> >
> > How does that relate to "You sent me to the first page of A's." Did I?
> > How? Where?
> You don't even know what that link you provided just up there links to?
> > >> > You have mentioned before that you do not use books. Maybe you
> > >> > don't know any better.
> > >> Pity you can't see my working room. Some 5 yards of bookshelves,
> > >> from bottom to ceiling.
> > >That's one bookcase.
> >
> > So I should have had more of them?
> If you were a serious scholar. you would have.
> > >(And we don't use "yards" the way you use "meters" -- we speak of
> > >"feet" of shelving. Few distances are given in yards.)
> >
> > I don't care. A yard is identical to a meter for inaccurate measures.
> > And a yard is three feet. I use it, in my kind of English.
> Some unscrupulous interior decorating firms sell "books by the yard"
> for those who wish to have an impressive-looking library. People with
> actual (functioning) libraries describe the shelving in feet. AUE has
> discussed road signs that are given in (fractions of) miles and (for
> very short distances) feet.
>
> Have you ever noticed what IKEA displays on the shelves of its
> model bookcases?

Such linguistic silliness. Books are scrolls of words, immeasurable yet knowable. Counting the letters of a paragraph is meaningless, the feet/yard/cm of a good story is not equal to the feet/yard/cm of an uninteresting one. Stop trying to be Pete Olcott or Peter Nykkos, quality rather than quantity is key.

On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 3:40:56 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 14 Oct 2021 14:32:26 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >> O wait, you already object to having to scroll INSIDE the index. And
> >> how's that in a paper book? You see it all in one glance?
> >
> >I can put my finger 10 pages later and flip to it, while keeping another
> >finger in the first spot.
> Yes. With hyperlinks, the computer does that for you. How convenient!

No. Not one, then the other, then the first one, with pauses in between.
Both at the same time, and then another. And a whole page at once, not
a part of the page that I've had to enlarge to be able to read.

> >Maybe I want to see how the references to "Phoneme" line up with the
> >references to "Alphabet." How often do they appear on the same page?
>
> In a browser, you can open each in a different tab. Unfortunately the

And see one tab at a time. How helpful.

> good old MDI (multi document interface), which let you see both side
> by side, has been abandoned by most modern software including
> browsers. I think Opera kept it around for quite a while. I never
> understood why it had to go.

Because computer jocks have no understanding of research.

> >> >> >> > You have mentioned before that you do not use books. Maybe you
> >> >> >> > don't know any better.
> >> >> >> Pity you can't see my working room. Some 5 yards of bookshelves,
> >> >> >> from bottom to ceiling.
> >> >> >That's one bookcase.
> >> >> So I should have had more of them?
> >> >If you were a serious scholar. you would have.
> >> Good my wife doesn't read this.
> >Does she also think you're not a serious scholar?
>
> She does, and doesn't care.

Sounds like you were lucky.