St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
Where is this alphabet documented and is it used for
anything else?

Čhokáŋ Taŋka (the “big middle”)
Wakáŋ Tipi Cave
https://www.lowerphalencreek.org/lpcp-blog/2021/7/27/pollution-at-hok-taka-pigs-eye-regional-park

There's a consonant and vowel inventory here which
doesn't include á & ŋ; yet there's an example down below
of a word spelled using ŋ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:20:24 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names

St. Paul wrote in Greek. What are you referring to?

It's not a "phonetic alphabet" just because it adds a letter for ng.

> Where is this alphabet documented and is it used for
> anything else?
>
> Čhokáŋ Taŋka (the “big middle”)
> Wakáŋ Tipi Cave
> https://www.lowerphalencreek.org/lpcp-blog/2021/7/27/pollution-at-hok-taka-pigs-eye-regional-park
>
> There's a consonant and vowel inventory here which
> doesn't include á & ŋ; yet there's an example down below
> of a word spelled using ŋ.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language

There are obvious problems with the phonology chart (at least)
in that article, since a little lower you will see plenty of words
with ŋ. The acute accent could be used for length, for stress,
or for a tone. This article won't tell you which.

On 31/10/2021 8:35 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:20:24 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>
>> St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
>
> St. Paul wrote in Greek. What are you referring to?

Metonymically, the government of the state of Minnesota.

> It's not a "phonetic alphabet" just because it adds a letter for ng.
>
>> Where is this alphabet documented and is it used for
>> anything else

It's an orthography developed for a particular Native American language,
probably by some collaboration of linguists and speakers of the language
(or people who are both). Exactly where it came from? -- you would have
to look to St.Paul for the answer to that.

It would not be surprising if orthographies for related languages in the
region were similar. Of course things like á and ŋ are used all over the
world.

>> Čhokáŋ Taŋka (the “big middle”)
>> Wakáŋ Tipi Cave
>> https://www.lowerphalencreek.org/lpcp-blog/2021/7/27/pollution-at-hok-taka-pigs-eye-regional-park
>>
>> There's a consonant and vowel inventory here which
>> doesn't include á & ŋ; yet there's an example down below
>> of a word spelled using ŋ.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language
>
> There are obvious problems with the phonology chart (at least)
> in that article, since a little lower you will see plenty of words
> with ŋ. The acute accent could be used for length, for stress,
> or for a tone. This article won't tell you which.
>

But this one will:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_language

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 4:47:36 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 31/10/2021 8:35 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:20:24 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> >> St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
> > St. Paul wrote in Greek. What are you referring to?
>
> Metonymically, the government of the state of Minnesota.

Well duh, but I didn't see anything at that site to suggest it's a
state park or a government web page.

> > It's not a "phonetic alphabet" just because it adds a letter for ng.
> >> Where is this alphabet documented and is it used for
> >> anything else
>
> It's an orthography developed for a particular Native American language,
> probably by some collaboration of linguists and speakers of the language
> (or people who are both). Exactly where it came from? -- you would have
> to look to St.Paul for the answer to that.
>
> It would not be surprising if orthographies for related languages in the
> region were similar. Of course things like á and ŋ are used all over the
> world.
>
> >> Čhokáŋ Taŋka (the “big middle”)
> >> Wakáŋ Tipi Cave
> >> https://www.lowerphalencreek.org/lpcp-blog/2021/7/27/pollution-at-hok-taka-pigs-eye-regional-park
> >> There's a consonant and vowel inventory here which
> >> doesn't include á & ŋ; yet there's an example down below
> >> of a word spelled using ŋ.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language
> > There are obvious problems with the phonology chart (at least)
> > in that article, since a little lower you will see plenty of words
> > with ŋ. The acute accent could be used for length, for stress,
> > or for a tone. This article won't tell you which.
>
> But this one will:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_language

On 2021-10-30, Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>> There's a consonant and vowel inventory here which
>> doesn't include á & ŋ; yet there's an example down below
>> of a word spelled using ŋ.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language
>
> There are obvious problems with the phonology chart (at least)
> in that article, since a little lower you will see plenty of words
> with ŋ. The acute accent could be used for length, for stress,
> or for a tone. This article won't tell you which.

Just above the section "Phonology", there is "Writing systems", which
points to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sioux_language#Writing_systems

There you can find <á> and <aŋ> as part of the standard orthography,
representing /aː/ and /ã/, respectively.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 12:35:23 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:20:24 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>
> > St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
> St. Paul wrote in Greek. What are you referring to?
>
> It's not a "phonetic alphabet" just because it adds a letter for ng.

No, but because its alphabet was devised recently making it
unlikely that Dakota/ Lakota pronunciation has changed much since
it was devised, one may reasonably suspect that its alphabet was
and still is about as phonetic as the IPA in typical use which you once
said is phonemic transcription. I find it more likely that typical
transcriptions in IPA are subphonemic as Avestan writing is
claimed to be.

> > Where is this alphabet documented and is it used for
> > anything else?
> >
> > Čhokáŋ Taŋka (the “big middle”)
> > Wakáŋ Tipi Cave
> > https://www.lowerphalencreek.org/lpcp-blog/2021/7/27/pollution-at-hok-taka-pigs-eye-regional-park
> >
> > There's a consonant and vowel inventory here which
> > doesn't include á & ŋ; yet there's an example down below
> > of a word spelled using ŋ.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language
> There are obvious problems with the phonology chart (at least)
> in that article, since a little lower you will see plenty of words
> with ŋ. The acute accent could be used for length, for stress,
> or for a tone. This article won't tell you which.

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 3:20:24 PM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
> St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
> Where is this alphabet documented and is it used for
> anything else?
>
> Čhokáŋ Taŋka (the “big middle”)
> Wakáŋ Tipi Cave
> https://www.lowerphalencreek.org/lpcp-blog/2021/7/27/pollution-at-hok-taka-pigs-eye-regional-park
>
> There's a consonant and vowel inventory here which
> doesn't include á & ŋ; yet there's an example down below
> of a word spelled using ŋ.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language#Writing_systems
"Eastern and Western Dakota
[...]
The two dialects also differ in the diminutive suffix (-daŋ in
Santee, and -na in Yankton-Yanktonai and in Sisseton)"

The acute on á probably refers to tone?
No, it's length:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sioux_language#Writing_systems
<a> = /a/
<á> = /a:/

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 10:47:36 PM UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 31/10/2021 8:35 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:20:24 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> >
> >> St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
> >
> > St. Paul wrote in Greek. What are you referring to?
> Metonymically, the government of the state of Minnesota.
> > It's not a "phonetic alphabet" just because it adds a letter for ng.
> >
> >> Where is this alphabet documented and is it used for
> >> anything else
> It's an orthography developed for a particular Native American language,
> probably by some collaboration of linguists and speakers of the language
> (or people who are both). Exactly where it came from? -- you would have
> to look to St.Paul for the answer to that.
>
> It would not be surprising if orthographies for related languages in the
> region were similar. Of course things like á and ŋ are used all over the
> world.
> >> Čhokáŋ Taŋka (the “big middle”)
> >> Wakáŋ Tipi Cave
> >> https://www.lowerphalencreek.org/lpcp-blog/2021/7/27/pollution-at-hok-taka-pigs-eye-regional-park
> >>
> >> There's a consonant and vowel inventory here which
> >> doesn't include á & ŋ; yet there's an example down below
> >> of a word spelled using ŋ.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language
> >
> > There are obvious problems with the phonology chart (at least)
> > in that article, since a little lower you will see plenty of words
> > with ŋ. The acute accent could be used for length, for stress,
> > or for a tone. This article won't tell you which.
> >
> But this one will:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_language

Yes, and aha: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_language#Orthography
"The vowels are a, e, i, o, u; nasal vowels are aŋ, iŋ, uŋ. Pitch accent is marked with an acute accent: á, é, í, ó, ú, áŋ, íŋ, úŋ on stressed vowels (which receive a higher tone than non-stressed ones)"

This is for Lakota, obviously, so it could be different for related other languages.

On 31/10/2021 9:55 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 4:47:36 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>> On 31/10/2021 8:35 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:20:24 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>
>>>> St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
>>> St. Paul wrote in Greek. What are you referring to?
>>
>> Metonymically, the government of the state of Minnesota.
>
> Well duh, but I didn't see anything at that site to suggest it's a
> state park or a government web page.

Actually, it was a guess on my part, intended for the O.P. (I'm never
sure how much general knowledge to assume for him). Turns out, on closer
inspection, that it's probably the city of St.Paul in whose jurisdiction
the park is located.

>>> It's not a "phonetic alphabet" just because it adds a letter for ng.
>>>> Where is this alphabet documented and is it used for
>>>> anything else
>>
>> It's an orthography developed for a particular Native American language,
>> probably by some collaboration of linguists and speakers of the language
>> (or people who are both). Exactly where it came from? -- you would have
>> to look to St.Paul for the answer to that.
>>
>> It would not be surprising if orthographies for related languages in the
>> region were similar. Of course things like á and ŋ are used all over the
>> world.
>>
>>>> Čhokáŋ Taŋka (the “big middle”)
>>>> Wakáŋ Tipi Cave
>>>> https://www.lowerphalencreek.org/lpcp-blog/2021/7/27/pollution-at-hok-taka-pigs-eye-regional-park
>>>> There's a consonant and vowel inventory here which
>>>> doesn't include á & ŋ; yet there's an example down below
>>>> of a word spelled using ŋ.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language
>>> There are obvious problems with the phonology chart (at least)
>>> in that article, since a little lower you will see plenty of words
>>> with ŋ. The acute accent could be used for length, for stress,
>>> or for a tone. This article won't tell you which.
>>
>> But this one will:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_language

On 31/10/2021 6:57 p.m., Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups
<google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 3:20:24 PM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
>> St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
>> Where is this alphabet documented and is it used for
>> anything else?
>>
>> Čhokáŋ Taŋka (the “big middle”)
>> Wakáŋ Tipi Cave
>> https://www.lowerphalencreek.org/lpcp-blog/2021/7/27/pollution-at-hok-taka-pigs-eye-regional-park
>>
>> There's a consonant and vowel inventory here which
>> doesn't include á & ŋ; yet there's an example down below
>> of a word spelled using ŋ.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language#Writing_systems
> "Eastern and Western Dakota
> [...]
> The two dialects also differ in the diminutive suffix (-daŋ in
> Santee, and -na in Yankton-Yanktonai and in Sisseton)"
>
> The acute on á probably refers to tone?
> No, it's length:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sioux_language#Writing_systems
> <a> = /a/
> <á> = /a:/

But the "Lakota language" article describes it as pitch-accent.

Sun, 31 Oct 2021 22:59:25 +1300: Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
scribeva:

>On 31/10/2021 6:57 p.m., Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups
><google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 3:20:24 PM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
>>> St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
>>> Where is this alphabet documented and is it used for
>>> anything else?
>>>
>>> ?hoká? Ta?ka (the “big middle”)
>>> Waká? Tipi Cave
>>> https://www.lowerphalencreek.org/lpcp-blog/2021/7/27/pollution-at-hok-taka-pigs-eye-regional-park
>>>
>>> There's a consonant and vowel inventory here which
>>> doesn't include á & ?; yet there's an example down below
>>> of a word spelled using ?.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_language#Writing_systems
>> "Eastern and Western Dakota
>> [...]
>> The two dialects also differ in the diminutive suffix (-da? in
>> Santee, and -na in Yankton-Yanktonai and in Sisseton)"
>>
>> The acute on á probably refers to tone?
>> No, it's length:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sioux_language#Writing_systems
>> <a> = /a/
>> <á> = /a:/
>
>But the "Lakota language" article describes it as pitch-accent.

Probably depends on the language or dialect, or is a pit of both.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 12:53:42 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 12:35:23 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:20:24 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> > > St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
> > St. Paul wrote in Greek. What are you referring to?
> > It's not a "phonetic alphabet" just because it adds a letter for ng.
>
> No, but because its alphabet was devised recently making it
> unlikely that Dakota/ Lakota pronunciation has changed much since
> it was devised, one may reasonably suspect that its alphabet was
> and still is about as phonetic as the IPA in typical use which you once
> said is phonemic transcription. I find it more likely that typical
> transcriptions in IPA are subphonemic as Avestan writing is
> claimed to be.

Ah. It turns out you meant "phonemic alphabet," which is how just
about every alphabet starts out. English, French, Thai, and Tibetan
orthographies are as complicated as they ae because they became
fixed long ago and the languages have undergone centuries of change
while the orthography has not.

The only "subphonemic" orthographies I know of are pointed Biblical
Hebrew and the Avestan alphabet. Modern people are unable to
determine exactly what the devisers had in mind -- because some
of the distinctions recorded were not phonemic.

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 9:35:35 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 12:53:42 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 12:35:23 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:20:24 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>
> > > > St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
> > > St. Paul wrote in Greek. What are you referring to?
> > > It's not a "phonetic alphabet" just because it adds a letter for ng.
> >
> > No, but because its alphabet was devised recently making it
> > unlikely that Dakota/ Lakota pronunciation has changed much since
> > it was devised, one may reasonably suspect that its alphabet was
> > and still is about as phonetic as the IPA in typical use which you once
> > said is phonemic transcription. I find it more likely that typical
> > transcriptions in IPA are subphonemic as Avestan writing is
> > claimed to be.
> Ah. It turns out you meant "phonemic alphabet," which is how just
> about every alphabet starts out. English, French, Thai, and Tibetan
> orthographies are as complicated as they ae because they became
> fixed long ago and the languages have undergone centuries of change
> while the orthography has not.
>
> The only "subphonemic" orthographies I know of are pointed Biblical
> Hebrew and the Avestan alphabet. Modern people are unable to
> determine exactly what the devisers had in mind -- because some
> of the distinctions recorded were not phonemic.

"writing systems" expert lies through his fucking teeth but will never correct himself.

(1) Vedic Sanskrit accents are only fancifully phonemic but they are marked once the accented texts were written down

(2) Hindi flapped consonants ड़ and ढ़. are (mostly?) in complementary distribution with the stops ड and ढ (d,dh, retroflex) but careful transcriptions show the underdots and those without eyes to see wouldn't even notice them.

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 7:04:56 AM UTC-7, S K wrote:
> On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 9:35:35 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 12:53:42 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 12:35:23 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:20:24 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> >
> > > > > St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
> > > > St. Paul wrote in Greek. What are you referring to?
> > > > It's not a "phonetic alphabet" just because it adds a letter for ng..
> > >
> > > No, but because its alphabet was devised recently making it
> > > unlikely that Dakota/ Lakota pronunciation has changed much since
> > > it was devised, one may reasonably suspect that its alphabet was
> > > and still is about as phonetic as the IPA in typical use which you once
> > > said is phonemic transcription. I find it more likely that typical
> > > transcriptions in IPA are subphonemic as Avestan writing is
> > > claimed to be.
> > Ah. It turns out you meant "phonemic alphabet," which is how just
> > about every alphabet starts out. English, French, Thai, and Tibetan
> > orthographies are as complicated as they ae because they became
> > fixed long ago and the languages have undergone centuries of change
> > while the orthography has not.
> >
> > The only "subphonemic" orthographies I know of are pointed Biblical
> > Hebrew and the Avestan alphabet. Modern people are unable to
> > determine exactly what the devisers had in mind -- because some
> > of the distinctions recorded were not phonemic.
> "writing systems" expert lies through his fucking teeth but will never correct himself.
>
> (1) Vedic Sanskrit accents are only fancifully phonemic but they are marked once the accented texts were written down
>
> (2) Hindi flapped consonants ड़ and ढ़. are (mostly?) in complementary distribution with the stops ड and ढ (d,dh, retroflex) but careful transcriptions show the underdots and those without eyes to see wouldn't even notice them.

Those with ears trying to correlate pronunciation and spelling might notice them.
The place of articulation for a (cerebral) flap is retroflex (cacuminal?) whereas
the corresponding (cerebral) ungeminated stop is postalveolar, for typical native
Hindi speakers. Long (geminate) cerebral stops have about the same place of
articlulation as the flap. Tamil/ Malayalm speakers using Hindi tend to use only
retroflex, further back than postalveolar.

In Toda, postalveolar and retroflex are phonemically distinct. I wonder whether
its speakers would interpret a Hindi accent's postalveolars as postalveolar or
retroflex. They were a close knit tribe with little opportunity to interpret Hindi
when I saw them in the 70s but that might have changed.

On Tuesday, November 2, 2021 at 2:59:17 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 9:35:35 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 12:53:42 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 12:35:23 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:20:24 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> > > > > > St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
> > > > > St. Paul wrote in Greek. What are you referring to?
> > > > > It's not a "phonetic alphabet" just because it adds a letter for ng.
> > > > No, but because its alphabet was devised recently making it
> > > > unlikely that Dakota/ Lakota pronunciation has changed much since
> > > > it was devised, one may reasonably suspect that its alphabet was
> > > > and still is about as phonetic as the IPA in typical use which you once
> > > > said is phonemic transcription. I find it more likely that typical
> > > > transcriptions in IPA are subphonemic as Avestan writing is
> > > > claimed to be.
> > > Ah. It turns out you meant "phonemic alphabet," which is how just
> > > about every alphabet starts out. English, French, Thai, and Tibetan
> > > orthographies are as complicated as they ae because they became
> > > fixed long ago and the languages have undergone centuries of change
> > > while the orthography has not.
> > > The only "subphonemic" orthographies I know of are pointed Biblical
> > > Hebrew and the Avestan alphabet. Modern people are unable to
> > > determine exactly what the devisers had in mind -- because some
> > > of the distinctions recorded were not phonemic.
>
> Those with ears trying to correlate pronunciation and spelling might notice them.
> The place of articulation for a (cerebral) flap is retroflex (cacuminal?) whereas
> the corresponding (cerebral) ungeminated stop is postalveolar, for typical native
> Hindi speakers. Long (geminate) cerebral stops have about the same place of
> articlulation as the flap. Tamil/ Malayalm speakers using Hindi tend to use only
> retroflex, further back than postalveolar.
>
> In Toda, postalveolar and retroflex are phonemically distinct. I wonder whether
> its speakers would interpret a Hindi accent's postalveolars as postalveolar or
> retroflex. They were a close knit tribe with little opportunity to interpret Hindi
> when I saw them in the 70s but that might have changed.

Please stop feeding the skippy troll. If it stops getting attention, eventually
it might go away.

On Tuesday, November 2, 2021 at 10:59:51 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 2, 2021 at 2:59:17 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 9:35:35 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 12:53:42 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 12:35:23 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:20:24 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>
> > > > > > > St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
> > > > > > St. Paul wrote in Greek. What are you referring to?
> > > > > > It's not a "phonetic alphabet" just because it adds a letter for ng.
> > > > > No, but because its alphabet was devised recently making it
> > > > > unlikely that Dakota/ Lakota pronunciation has changed much since
> > > > > it was devised, one may reasonably suspect that its alphabet was
> > > > > and still is about as phonetic as the IPA in typical use which you once
> > > > > said is phonemic transcription. I find it more likely that typical
> > > > > transcriptions in IPA are subphonemic as Avestan writing is
> > > > > claimed to be.
> > > > Ah. It turns out you meant "phonemic alphabet," which is how just
> > > > about every alphabet starts out. English, French, Thai, and Tibetan
> > > > orthographies are as complicated as they ae because they became
> > > > fixed long ago and the languages have undergone centuries of change
> > > > while the orthography has not.
> > > > The only "subphonemic" orthographies I know of are pointed Biblical
> > > > Hebrew and the Avestan alphabet. Modern people are unable to
> > > > determine exactly what the devisers had in mind -- because some
> > > > of the distinctions recorded were not phonemic.
> >
> > Those with ears trying to correlate pronunciation and spelling might notice them.
> > The place of articulation for a (cerebral) flap is retroflex (cacuminal?) whereas
> > the corresponding (cerebral) ungeminated stop is postalveolar, for typical native
> > Hindi speakers. Long (geminate) cerebral stops have about the same place of
> > articlulation as the flap. Tamil/ Malayalm speakers using Hindi tend to use only
> > retroflex, further back than postalveolar.
> >
> > In Toda, postalveolar and retroflex are phonemically distinct. I wonder whether
> > its speakers would interpret a Hindi accent's postalveolars as postalveolar or
> > retroflex. They were a close knit tribe with little opportunity to interpret Hindi
> > when I saw them in the 70s but that might have changed.
> Please stop feeding the skippy troll. If it stops getting attention, eventually
> it might go away.

this chutzpah (on being caught in a stupid,egregious lie) ranks with

queen of the jews Golda Meier's “Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”

but Ranjit the Mallu kisses the butt of Westerners and lets them walk all over him, to claim collegiality with them.

On Tuesday, November 2, 2021 at 10:59:51 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 2, 2021 at 2:59:17 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 9:35:35 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 12:53:42 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 12:35:23 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:20:24 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>
> > > > > > > St Paul uses a phonetic alphabet for Dakota names
> > > > > > St. Paul wrote in Greek. What are you referring to?
> > > > > > It's not a "phonetic alphabet" just because it adds a letter for ng.
> > > > > No, but because its alphabet was devised recently making it
> > > > > unlikely that Dakota/ Lakota pronunciation has changed much since
> > > > > it was devised, one may reasonably suspect that its alphabet was
> > > > > and still is about as phonetic as the IPA in typical use which you once
> > > > > said is phonemic transcription. I find it more likely that typical
> > > > > transcriptions in IPA are subphonemic as Avestan writing is
> > > > > claimed to be.
> > > > Ah. It turns out you meant "phonemic alphabet," which is how just
> > > > about every alphabet starts out. English, French, Thai, and Tibetan
> > > > orthographies are as complicated as they ae because they became
> > > > fixed long ago and the languages have undergone centuries of change
> > > > while the orthography has not.
> > > > The only "subphonemic" orthographies I know of are pointed Biblical
> > > > Hebrew and the Avestan alphabet. Modern people are unable to
> > > > determine exactly what the devisers had in mind -- because some
> > > > of the distinctions recorded were not phonemic.
> >
> > Those with ears trying to correlate pronunciation and spelling might notice them.
> > The place of articulation for a (cerebral) flap is retroflex (cacuminal?) whereas
> > the corresponding (cerebral) ungeminated stop is postalveolar, for typical native
> > Hindi speakers. Long (geminate) cerebral stops have about the same place of
> > articlulation as the flap. Tamil/ Malayalm speakers using Hindi tend to use only
> > retroflex, further back than postalveolar.
> >
> > In Toda, postalveolar and retroflex are phonemically distinct. I wonder whether
> > its speakers would interpret a Hindi accent's postalveolars as postalveolar or
> > retroflex. They were a close knit tribe with little opportunity to interpret Hindi
> > when I saw them in the 70s but that might have changed.
> Please stop feeding the skippy troll. If it stops getting attention, eventually
> it might go away.

"the jew cries out in pain as he strikes you" - old Polish proverb.

On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 8:01:23 AM UTC-7, S K wrote:

> "the jew cries out in pain as he strikes you" - old Polish proverb.

.... vomits S K.

The banker cries out in pain as he strikes you - updated proverb

The proverb goes back to moneylenders, Jews at the time,
collecting debts by foreclosure in 16th century Poland. Bankers
have taken over that role, hence the update.

Oddly enough, I know a Pole in Sczecin who lost his commercial
property by foreclosure to an American, not Catholic or Jewish,
so possibly Protestant.

So, tune the proverb appropriately:

The American cries out ...
The Protestant cries out ...

But is there a reason why you don't say
"The Bania cries out as he strikes you"?
You can't be unaware that they, more than
any other caste in India, have a reputation
for lending money and foreclosing.

On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 1:07:59 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 8:01:23 AM UTC-7, S K wrote:
>
> > "the jew cries out in pain as he strikes you" - old Polish proverb.
> ... vomits S K.
>
> The banker cries out in pain as he strikes you - updated proverb
>
> The proverb goes back to moneylenders, Jews at the time,
> collecting debts by foreclosure in 16th century Poland. Bankers
> have taken over that role, hence the update.
>

Thanks for authenticating it. Many people think it is not properly attested.

> Oddly enough, I know a Pole in Sczecin who lost his commercial
> property by foreclosure to an American, not Catholic or Jewish,
> so possibly Protestant.
>
> So, tune the proverb appropriately:
>
> The American cries out ...
> The Protestant cries out ...
>
> But is there a reason why you don't say
> "The Bania cries out as he strikes you"?
> You can't be unaware that they, more than
> any other caste in India, have a reputation
> for lending money and foreclosing.

the U.P. lower castes DO (they at least used to) say it - they want Banias,Brahmins et al to leave India.

you are too foolish, automatonlike,nerdy and hyperargumentative over nothing to understand what is at issue here.

Continue to work on your doctorate on alveolar sounds and stay away from real issues.

On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 6:42:57 PM UTC-7, S K wrote:
> On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 1:07:59 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 8:01:23 AM UTC-7, S K wrote:
> >
> > > "the jew cries out in pain as he strikes you" - old Polish proverb.
> > ... vomits S K.
> >
> > The banker cries out in pain as he strikes you - updated proverb
> >
> > The proverb goes back to moneylenders, Jews at the time,
> > collecting debts by foreclosure in 16th century Poland. Bankers
> > have taken over that role, hence the update.
> >
> Thanks for authenticating it. Many people think it is not properly attested.
> > Oddly enough, I know a Pole in Sczecin who lost his commercial
> > property by foreclosure to an American, not Catholic or Jewish,
> > so possibly Protestant.
> >
> > So, tune the proverb appropriately:
> >
> > The American cries out ...
> > The Protestant cries out ...
> >
> > But is there a reason why you don't say
> > "The Bania cries out as he strikes you"?
> > You can't be unaware that they, more than
> > any other caste in India, have a reputation
> > for lending money and foreclosing.
> the U.P. lower castes DO (they at least used to) say it -
> they want Banias,Brahmins et al to leave India.
>
Yet, you haven't joined them in saying it!
>
> you are too foolish, automatonlike,nerdy and hyperargumentative
> over nothing to understand what is at issue here.
>
> Continue to work on your doctorate on alveolar sounds and
> stay away from real issues.