French: Sil vous plait = Will you please

Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 11:22:48 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:

> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please

Ni, 'If it pleases you'

> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please

On 2021-12-15 09:22, Daud Deden wrote:
> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
>
> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please

So what exactly is your point here?

Are you trying to claim that these are related based on the fact that
the Malay word _sila_ 'please' happens to bear a resemblance to the
French _s'il_ 'if it' but no resemblance at all to the French _plaire_
'to please'?

André

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On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 9:44:30 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 11:22:48 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
> Ni, 'If it pleases you'

If it will please you ~ Will you please

> > Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-12-15 09:22, Daud Deden wrote:
> > French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
> >
> > Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
> So what exactly is your point here?
Surely it is obvious.
> Are you trying to claim that these are related based on the fact that
> the Malay word _sila_ 'please' happens to bear a resemblance to the
> French _s'il_ 'if it'
'if it will'
but no resemblance at all to the French _plaire_
> 'to please'?
Surely it is obvious. Don't overcomplicate things. The meaning is 'if it will please you' in both dialects.

>
> André
>
> --
> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
> service.

On 2021-12-15 12:56, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2021-12-15 09:22, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
>>>
>>> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
>> So what exactly is your point here?
> Surely it is obvious.

Would you please start adding a carriage return before and after your
replies so it is actually legible?

>> Are you trying to claim that these are related based on the fact that
>> the Malay word _sila_ 'please' happens to bear a resemblance to the
>> French _s'il_ 'if it'
> 'if it will'

There's no 'will' in _s'il vous plait_. _s'il_ is a contraction of _si_
'if' and _il_ 'it'.

> but no resemblance at all to the French _plaire_
>> 'to please'?
> Surely it is obvious. Don't overcomplicate things.

How does pointing out that you are comparing apples and oranges count as
'overcomplicating' things?

The malay word for please is _sila_. The French is _plaire_ (conjugated
as _plaît_ in the example you give). There's no resemblance whatsoever
between the two.

> The meaning is 'if it will please you' in both dialects.

'if it will please you' is English. It has no meaning in either French
nor Malay.

So it really *isn't* obvious what your point is unless you are simply
pointing out that it is possible for two sentences in unrelated
languages to start with the same three letters.

I can do better. The following two sentences start with the same FOUR
letters:

"Chat with me please"

"Chat, viens ici!"

But so what?

--
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On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-12-15 12:56, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
> >> On 2021-12-15 09:22, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
> >>>
> >>> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
> >> So what exactly is your point here?
> > Surely it is obvious.
> Would you please start adding a carriage return before and after your
> replies so it is actually legible?

I have no problem reading with or without returns.

> >> Are you trying to claim that these are related based on the fact that
> >> the Malay word _sila_ 'please' happens to bear a resemblance to the
> >> French _s'il_ 'if it'
> > 'if it will'
> There's no 'will' in _s'il vous plait_. _s'il_ is a contraction of _si_
> 'if' and _il_ 'it'.

It is implied, just as the 'you' in silakan is implied. I focus on the meaning of the phrase, not the individual words. French elides long words removing middle syllables, they may have erased the 'will' portion.

> > but no resemblance at all to the French _plaire_
> >> 'to please'?
> > Surely it is obvious. Don't overcomplicate things.
> How does pointing out that you are comparing apples and oranges count as
> 'overcomplicating' things?

Apples: fruit
Oranges: fruit.
> The malay word for please is _sila_. The French is _plaire_ (conjugated
> as _plaît_ in the example you give). There's no resemblance whatsoever
> between the two.
> > The meaning is 'if it will please you' in both dialects.
> 'if it will please you' is English.

Because we speak English. The meaning is the same in the Malay phrase and French phrase.

It has no meaning in either French
> nor Malay.
>
> So it really *isn't* obvious what your point is unless you are simply
> pointing out that it is possible for two sentences in unrelated
> languages to start with the same three letters.

One language, one phrase in 2 dialects.
> I can do better. The following two sentences start with the same FOUR
> letters:

Irrelevant
>
> "Chat with me please"
>
> "Chat, viens ici!"
>
> But so what?
> --
> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
> service.

I have no idea.

On 2021-12-15 13:54, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2021-12-15 12:56, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2021-12-15 09:22, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>>> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
>>>>>
>>>>> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
>>>> So what exactly is your point here?
>>> Surely it is obvious.
>> Would you please start adding a carriage return before and after your
>> replies so it is actually legible?
>
> I have no problem reading with or without returns.

Maybe not, but it is proper usenet etiquette, and some newsreaders
depend on there being a blank line between paragraphs for properly
parsing quoted text.

>>>> Are you trying to claim that these are related based on the fact that
>>>> the Malay word _sila_ 'please' happens to bear a resemblance to the
>>>> French _s'il_ 'if it'
>>> 'if it will'
>> There's no 'will' in _s'il vous plait_. _s'il_ is a contraction of _si_
>> 'if' and _il_ 'it'.
>
> It is implied, just as the 'you' in silakan is implied. I focus on the meaning of the phrase, not the individual words. French elides long words removing middle syllables, they may have erased the 'will' portion.

No, it is not implied at all. English 'will' is a modal verb which
serves a function similar to the future tense in languages which have
it. The French expression you give is in the *present* tense. Literally
it means 'if it pleases you'. Unlike English 'will you please..' the
French construction is impersonal, i.e. "you" is *not* the subject of
this sentence.

Literally, the Malay means something along the lines of 'invite will'
'Sila' is a particle completely unrelated to the Malay verb meaning 'to
please'.

So you're dealing with two entirely different sentences which mean
different things, consist of different words, have different word
orders, but which coincidentally have the same three letters.

The technical term for this is 'apophenia'.

André

--
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service.

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 2:43:40 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 9:44:30 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 11:22:48 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:

> > > French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
> > No, 'If it pleases you'
>
> If it will please you ~ Will you please

No, French has a future tense, and it does not appear in this sentence.

> > > Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:17:49 PM UTC-5, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 2:43:40 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 9:44:30 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 11:22:48 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
> > > No, 'If it pleases you'
> >
> > If it will please you ~ Will you please
> No, French has a future tense, and it does not appear in this sentence.
> > > > Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please

Present tense, future tense vs post-present sense...
Both 'if' and 'will' refer to a post-present sense.

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:38:29 PM UTC-5, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-12-15 13:54, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
> >> On 2021-12-15 12:56, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
> >>>> On 2021-12-15 09:22, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>>>> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
> >>>> So what exactly is your point here?
> >>> Surely it is obvious.
> >> Would you please start adding a carriage return before and after your
> >> replies so it is actually legible?
> >
> > I have no problem reading with or without returns.
> Maybe not, but it is proper usenet etiquette, and some newsreaders
> depend on there being a blank line between paragraphs for properly
> parsing quoted text.
PTD doesn't insert blank lines. So?
> >>>> Are you trying to claim that these are related based on the fact that
> >>>> the Malay word _sila_ 'please' happens to bear a resemblance to the
> >>>> French _s'il_ 'if it'
> >>> 'if it will'
> >> There's no 'will' in _s'il vous plait_. _s'il_ is a contraction of _si_
> >> 'if' and _il_ 'it'.
> >
> > It is implied, just as the 'you' in silakan is implied. I focus on the meaning of the phrase, not the individual words. French elides long words removing middle syllables, they may have erased the 'will' portion.
> No, it is not implied at all. English 'will' is a modal verb which
> serves a function similar to the future tense in languages which have
> it. The French expression you give is in the *present* tense.

The present tense but the post-present sense, like the Malay phrase, both are conditional requiring a response but couched as a statement.

Literally
> it means 'if it pleases you'. Unlike English 'will you please..' the
> French construction is impersonal, i.e. "you" is *not* the subject of
> this sentence.

Nor is it in the Malay phrase.

> Literally, the Malay means something along the lines of 'invite will'
> 'Sila' is a particle completely unrelated to the Malay verb meaning 'to
> please'.

Please cite support for that claim.

> So you're dealing with two entirely different sentences which mean
> different things, consist of different words, have different word
> orders, but which coincidentally have the same three letters.
>
> The technical term for this is 'apophenia'.
>
> André
> --
> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
> service.

If you think that two phrases in two dialects with near-identical meanings indicate non-relatedness, I'd say you are mistaken.

On 2021-12-15 18:47, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:38:29 PM UTC-5, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2021-12-15 13:54, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2021-12-15 12:56, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-12-15 09:22, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>>>>> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
>>>>>> So what exactly is your point here?
>>>>> Surely it is obvious.
>>>> Would you please start adding a carriage return before and after your
>>>> replies so it is actually legible?
>>>
>>> I have no problem reading with or without returns.
>> Maybe not, but it is proper usenet etiquette, and some newsreaders
>> depend on there being a blank line between paragraphs for properly
>> parsing quoted text.
> PTD doesn't insert blank lines. So?

Yes, he does.

>>>>>> Are you trying to claim that these are related based on the fact that
>>>>>> the Malay word _sila_ 'please' happens to bear a resemblance to the
>>>>>> French _s'il_ 'if it'
>>>>> 'if it will'
>>>> There's no 'will' in _s'il vous plait_. _s'il_ is a contraction of _si_
>>>> 'if' and _il_ 'it'.
>>>
>>> It is implied, just as the 'you' in silakan is implied. I focus on the meaning of the phrase, not the individual words. French elides long words removing middle syllables, they may have erased the 'will' portion.
>> No, it is not implied at all. English 'will' is a modal verb which
>> serves a function similar to the future tense in languages which have
>> it. The French expression you give is in the *present* tense.
>
> The present tense but the post-present sense, like the Malay phrase, both are conditional requiring a response but couched as a statement.

The present tense meaning 'in the present'. There's absolutely nothing
'post-present' about it.

Do you have any actual knowledge of French or Malay?

> Literally
>> it means 'if it pleases you'. Unlike English 'will you please..' the
>> French construction is impersonal, i.e. "you" is *not* the subject of
>> this sentence.
>
> Nor is it in the Malay phrase.
>
>> Literally, the Malay means something along the lines of 'invite will'
>> 'Sila' is a particle completely unrelated to the Malay verb meaning 'to
>> please'.
>
> Please cite support for that claim.

Read a Malay grammar or check a Malay dictionary. You're the one pulling
data out of your ass. It's your responsibility to actually verify that
things mean what you claim they do.

_silakan_ may reasonably be translated as 'please', but it would be
inappropriate to use in many cases where English uses 'please'. In the
sentence 'please come to dinner', _silakan_ would be an appropriate
translation. In 'please leave' or 'please wash the dishes' it would not.

>> So you're dealing with two entirely different sentences which mean
>> different things, consist of different words, have different word
>> orders, but which coincidentally have the same three letters.
>>
>> The technical term for this is 'apophenia'.
>>
>> André
>> --
>> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
>> service.
>
> If you think that two phrases in two dialects with near-identical meanings indicate non-relatedness, I'd say you are mistaken.

The phrases have similar *usage*, but they mean different things, and
there is no similarity between any of the individual words.

Do you seriously believe that any two phrases with similar meanings must
be related?

Is the English expression 'A catastrophic auto accident occurred'
related to 'There was a nasty car crash' just because they might be used
in similar contexts? Apart from the word 'a', none of the elements in
either sentence are related.

The French sentence 'J’ai observé un accident d'auto terrible' is (for
the most part) related to the English 'I observed a terrible automobile
accident'. It is not remotely related to the English 'I saw a horrific
car crash'. Just because two things have similar meanings doesn't make
them related.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

On 2021-12-15 18:09, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:17:49 PM UTC-5, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 2:43:40 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 9:44:30 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 11:22:48 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
>>>> No, 'If it pleases you'
>>>
>>> If it will please you ~ Will you please
>> No, French has a future tense, and it does not appear in this sentence.
>>>>> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
>
> Present tense, future tense vs post-present sense...
> Both 'if' and 'will' refer to a post-present sense.

"If I had seen a dinosaur yesterday I might have inferred that they
never actually went extinct."

"If an animal is a dog, it is also a mammal."

"If someone is very young today, they were probably also very young
yesterday".

Please explain how the word 'if' refers to a 'post-present sense' in any
of the above examples.

André

--
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service.

On 16/12/2021 2:47 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:38:29 PM UTC-5, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2021-12-15 13:54, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2021-12-15 12:56, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-12-15 09:22, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>>>>> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
>>>>>> So what exactly is your point here?
>>>>> Surely it is obvious.
>>>> Would you please start adding a carriage return before and after your
>>>> replies so it is actually legible?
>>>
>>> I have no problem reading with or without returns.
>> Maybe not, but it is proper usenet etiquette, and some newsreaders
>> depend on there being a blank line between paragraphs for properly
>> parsing quoted text.
> PTD doesn't insert blank lines. So?
>>>>>> Are you trying to claim that these are related based on the fact that
>>>>>> the Malay word _sila_ 'please' happens to bear a resemblance to the
>>>>>> French _s'il_ 'if it'
>>>>> 'if it will'
>>>> There's no 'will' in _s'il vous plait_. _s'il_ is a contraction of _si_
>>>> 'if' and _il_ 'it'.
>>>
>>> It is implied, just as the 'you' in silakan is implied. I focus on the meaning of the phrase, not the individual words. French elides long words removing middle syllables, they may have erased the 'will' portion.
>> No, it is not implied at all. English 'will' is a modal verb which
>> serves a function similar to the future tense in languages which have
>> it. The French expression you give is in the *present* tense.
>
> The present tense but the post-present sense, like the Malay phrase, both are conditional requiring a response but couched as a statement.

Wrong. Malay sila just means "please". (Winstedt says it's from Sanskrit.)
Sila akan (silakan) followed by a verb makes a polite invitation (please
come in, please sit down). It's not conditional, or even a statement.

The French phrase was historically a conditional (parallel to English
"if you please"), but is now a fixed expression -- not a conditional,
not a statement, does not require a response.

> Literally
>> it means 'if it pleases you'. Unlike English 'will you please..' the
>> French construction is impersonal, i.e. "you" is *not* the subject of
>> this sentence.
>
> Nor is it in the Malay phrase.
>
>> Literally, the Malay means something along the lines of 'invite will'
>> 'Sila' is a particle completely unrelated to the Malay verb meaning 'to
>> please'.
>
> Please cite support for that claim.
>
>> So you're dealing with two entirely different sentences which mean
>> different things, consist of different words, have different word
>> orders, but which coincidentally have the same three letters.
>>
>> The technical term for this is 'apophenia'.
>>
>> André
>> --
>> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
>> service.
>
> If you think that two phrases in two dialects with near-identical meanings indicate non-relatedness, I'd say you are mistaken.

That is because you find it impossible to believe in coincidence.

Wed, 15 Dec 2021 11:56:49 -0800 (PST): Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2021-12-15 09:22, Daud Deden wrote:
>> > French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
>> >
>> > Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
>> So what exactly is your point here?
>Surely it is obvious.
>> Are you trying to claim that these are related based on the fact that
>> the Malay word _sila_ 'please' happens to bear a resemblance to the
>> French _s'il_ 'if it'
>'if it will'

No! There is no "will". The derivation of the litteral meaning is:
S'il vous plait.
Si il vous plait.
If it you [plural or polite form] pleases.
If it pleases you.

Hence the figurative meaning: I ask you to do this, but do it only if
you're OK with it yourself too, I don't want to compel you or force it
upon you, I am considerate about your feelings.

>but no resemblance at all to the French _plaire_
>> 'to please'?
>Surely it is obvious. Don't overcomplicate things. The meaning is 'if it will please you' in both dialects.

No. Please don't overcomplicate things, if you will.
(That's 'will' in the 'want' sense, which is alive in German and
Dutch: ik wil naar huis = I want to go home. Ik wil dit niet doen = I
don't want to do this. Not 'will' as a future tense auxiliary verb,
which is zullen (cognate with shall) in Dutch, and werden in German.

Crusader's slogan: Dieu le veult, God wills it. (In that sense, the
English IS conjugated in the third person.)
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Wed, 15 Dec 2021 13:28:19 -0700: André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid>
scribeva:
>I can do better. The following two sentences start with the same FOUR
>letters:
>
>"Chat with me please"
>
>"Chat, viens ici!"

And in Dutch:
"Schat, kom eens hier!"

Same four letters, with an s-prefix.
No, schat means darling, from a more literal meaning: treasure.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/skattaz

>But so what?

Good question.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Wed, 15 Dec 2021 12:54:56 -0800 (PST): Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> There's no 'will' in _s'il vous plait_. _s'il_ is a contraction of _si_
>> 'if' and _il_ 'it'.
>
>It is implied, just as the 'you' in silakan is implied. I focus on the meaning of the phrase,
>not the individual words.

Yeah right. That's a complicated way to say: I don't want to admit I
was wrong.

>French elides long words removing middle syllables, they may have erased
>the 'will' portion.

That may not have erased that, and they didn't.

>> So it really *isn't* obvious what your point is unless you are simply
>> pointing out that it is possible for two sentences in unrelated
>> languages to start with the same three letters.
>
>One language, one phrase in 2 dialects.

Male cow's shit.
>> I can do better. The following two sentences start with the same FOUR
>> letters:
>
>Irrelevant
>>
>> "Chat with me please"
>>
>> "Chat, viens ici!"
>>
>> But so what?

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Wed, 15 Dec 2021 14:38:24 -0700: André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid>
scribeva:

>On 2021-12-15 13:54, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-15 12:56, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-12-15 09:22, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>>>> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
>>>>> So what exactly is your point here?
>>>> Surely it is obvious.
>>> Would you please start adding a carriage return before and after your
>>> replies so it is actually legible?
>>
>> I have no problem reading with or without returns.
>
>Maybe not, but it is proper usenet etiquette, and some newsreaders
>depend on there being a blank line between paragraphs for properly
>parsing quoted text.
>
>>>>> Are you trying to claim that these are related based on the fact that
>>>>> the Malay word _sila_ 'please' happens to bear a resemblance to the
>>>>> French _s'il_ 'if it'
>>>> 'if it will'
>>> There's no 'will' in _s'il vous plait_. _s'il_ is a contraction of _si_
>>> 'if' and _il_ 'it'.
>>
>> It is implied, just as the 'you' in silakan is implied. I focus on the meaning of the phrase, not the individual words. French elides long words removing middle syllables, they may have erased the 'will' portion.
>
>No, it is not implied at all. English 'will' is a modal verb which
>serves a function similar to the future tense in languages which have
>it. The French expression you give is in the *present* tense. Literally
>it means 'if it pleases you'. Unlike English 'will you please..' the
>French construction is impersonal, i.e. "you" is *not* the subject of
>this sentence.

Right. It is 'to please' in the sense of "make happy", as in "pleasing
to the eye". If it pleases you = if it makes you glad.

Perhaps Daud doesn't know that sense of the verb "to please"?

>Literally, the Malay means something along the lines of 'invite will'
>'Sila' is a particle completely unrelated to the Malay verb meaning 'to
>please'.
>
>So you're dealing with two entirely different sentences which mean
>different things, consist of different words, have different word
>orders, but which coincidentally have the same three letters.
>
>The technical term for this is 'apophenia'.

Quite interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

Alcohol can have the effect too, in my experience. But only
temporarily. In a modest form, it can be an inspiration for writing.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Wed, 15 Dec 2021 19:33:24 -0700: André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid>
scribeva:
>The present tense meaning 'in the present'. There's absolutely nothing
>'post-present' about it.
>
>Do you have any actual knowledge of French or Malay?

There is a wide-spread suspicion, that is, I personally have it and
that is wide-spread enough for me, that Malay, or Bahasa Indonesia
which is very similar, is actually Daud's native tongue.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On 2021-12-15 22:24, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 15 Dec 2021 19:33:24 -0700: André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid>
> scribeva:
>> The present tense meaning 'in the present'. There's absolutely nothing
>> 'post-present' about it.
>>
>> Do you have any actual knowledge of French or Malay?
>
> There is a wide-spread suspicion, that is, I personally have it and
> that is wide-spread enough for me, that Malay, or Bahasa Indonesia
> which is very similar, is actually Daud's native tongue.

I am not even convinced that language is Daud's native language, let
alone any specific language such as Bahasa Indonesia/Melayu.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:52:50 PM UTC-5, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 16/12/2021 2:47 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:38:29 PM UTC-5, André G. Isaak wrote:
> >> On 2021-12-15 13:54, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
> >>>> On 2021-12-15 12:56, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2021-12-15 09:22, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>>>>>> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
> >>>>>> So what exactly is your point here?
> >>>>> Surely it is obvious.
> >>>> Would you please start adding a carriage return before and after your
> >>>> replies so it is actually legible?
> >>>
> >>> I have no problem reading with or without returns.
> >> Maybe not, but it is proper usenet etiquette, and some newsreaders
> >> depend on there being a blank line between paragraphs for properly
> >> parsing quoted text.
> > PTD doesn't insert blank lines. So?
> >>>>>> Are you trying to claim that these are related based on the fact that
> >>>>>> the Malay word _sila_ 'please' happens to bear a resemblance to the
> >>>>>> French _s'il_ 'if it'
> >>>>> 'if it will'
> >>>> There's no 'will' in _s'il vous plait_. _s'il_ is a contraction of _si_
> >>>> 'if' and _il_ 'it'.
> >>>
> >>> It is implied, just as the 'you' in silakan is implied. I focus on the meaning of the phrase, not the individual words. French elides long words removing middle syllables, they may have erased the 'will' portion.
> >> No, it is not implied at all. English 'will' is a modal verb which
> >> serves a function similar to the future tense in languages which have
> >> it. The French expression you give is in the *present* tense.
> >
> > The present tense but the post-present sense, like the Malay phrase, both are conditional requiring a response but couched as a statement.
> Wrong. Malay sila just means "please". (Winstedt says it's from Sanskrit.)

Yes, like plait. (~ bless?)

> Sila akan (silakan) followed by a verb makes a polite invitation (please
> come in, please sit down). It's not conditional, or even a statement.

Yes, 'conditional' as referring to either a verbal or nonverbal (physical) post-present response Eg act of sitting

> The French phrase was historically a conditional (parallel to English
> "if you please"), but is now a fixed expression -- not a conditional,
> not a statement, does not require a response.

Both were conditional at formation of phrase.

> > Literally
> >> it means 'if it pleases you'. Unlike English 'will you please..' the
> >> French construction is impersonal, i.e. "you" is *not* the subject of
> >> this sentence.
> >
> > Nor is it in the Malay phrase.
> >
> >> Literally, the Malay means something along the lines of 'invite will'
> >> 'Sila' is a particle completely unrelated to the Malay verb meaning 'to
> >> please'.
> >
> > Please cite support for that claim.
> >
> >> So you're dealing with two entirely different sentences which mean
> >> different things, consist of different words, have different word
> >> orders, but which coincidentally have the same three letters.
> >>
> >> The technical term for this is 'apophenia'.
> >>
> >> André
> >> --
> >> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
> >> service.
> >
> > If you think that two phrases in two dialects with near-identical meanings indicate non-relatedness, I'd say you are mistaken.
> That is because you find it impossible to believe in coincidence.

No, it is because coincidences are rarer than noncoincidences but neither can establish non-relatedness.

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 9:33:28 PM UTC-5, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-12-15 18:47, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:38:29 PM UTC-5, André G. Isaak wrote:
> >> On 2021-12-15 13:54, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
> >>>> On 2021-12-15 12:56, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2021-12-15 09:22, Daud Deden wrote:
> >>>>>>> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
> >>>>>> So what exactly is your point here?
> >>>>> Surely it is obvious.
> >>>> Would you please start adding a carriage return before and after your
> >>>> replies so it is actually legible?
> >>>
> >>> I have no problem reading with or without returns.
> >> Maybe not, but it is proper usenet etiquette, and some newsreaders
> >> depend on there being a blank line between paragraphs for properly
> >> parsing quoted text.
> > PTD doesn't insert blank lines. So?
> Yes, he does.
I see none.
> >>>>>> Are you trying to claim that these are related based on the fact that
> >>>>>> the Malay word _sila_ 'please' happens to bear a resemblance to the
> >>>>>> French _s'il_ 'if it'
> >>>>> 'if it will'
> >>>> There's no 'will' in _s'il vous plait_. _s'il_ is a contraction of _si_
> >>>> 'if' and _il_ 'it'.
> >>>
> >>> It is implied, just as the 'you' in silakan is implied. I focus on the meaning of the phrase, not the individual words. French elides long words removing middle syllables, they may have erased the 'will' portion.
> >> No, it is not implied at all. English 'will' is a modal verb which
> >> serves a function similar to the future tense in languages which have
> >> it. The French expression you give is in the *present* tense.
> >
> > The present tense but the post-present sense, like the Malay phrase, both are conditional requiring a response but couched as a statement.
> The present tense meaning 'in the present'. There's absolutely nothing
> 'post-present' about it.

There is, implicit.

> Do you have any actual knowledge of French or Malay?

Si.

> > Literally
> >> it means 'if it pleases you'. Unlike English 'will you please..' the
> >> French construction is impersonal, i.e. "you" is *not* the subject of
> >> this sentence.
> >
> > Nor is it in the Malay phrase.
> >
> >> Literally, the Malay means something along the lines of 'invite will'
> >> 'Sila' is a particle completely unrelated to the Malay verb meaning 'to
> >> please'.
> >
> > Please cite support for that claim.
> Read a Malay grammar or check a Malay dictionary. You're the one pulling
> data out of your ass. It's your responsibility to actually verify that
> things mean what you claim they do.

Thanks for nothing, then.

> _silakan_ may reasonably be translated as 'please', but it would be
> inappropriate to use in many cases where English uses 'please'. In the
> sentence 'please come to dinner', _silakan_ would be an appropriate
> translation. In 'please leave' or 'please wash the dishes' it would not.

Usage.

> >> So you're dealing with two entirely different sentences which mean
> >> different things, consist of different words, have different word
> >> orders, but which coincidentally have the same three letters.
> >>
> >> The technical term for this is 'apophenia'.
> >>
> >> André
> >> --
> >> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
> >> service.
> >
> > If you think that two phrases in two dialects with near-identical meanings indicate non-relatedness, I'd say you are mistaken.
> The phrases have similar *usage*, but they mean different things, and
> there is no similarity between any of the individual words.

Tis the phrase usage that's the key, as I noted.

> Do you seriously believe that any two phrases with similar meanings must
> be related?

Do you seriously believe that any two phrases with similar meanings must be unrelated?

> Is the English expression 'A catastrophic auto accident occurred'
> related to 'There was a nasty car crash' just because they might be used
> in similar contexts? Apart from the word 'a', none of the elements in
> either sentence are related.

So?

>
> The French sentence 'J’ai observé un accident d'auto terrible' is (for
> the most part) related to the English 'I observed a terrible automobile
> accident'. It is not remotely related to the English 'I saw a horrific
> car crash'. Just because two things have similar meanings doesn't make
> them related.
> André

Nor unrelated.
>
> --
> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
> service.

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 9:37:15 PM UTC-5, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-12-15 18:09, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:17:49 PM UTC-5, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 2:43:40 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 9:44:30 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 11:22:48 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail..com wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> French: Sil vous plait = Will you please
> >>>> No, 'If it pleases you'
> >>>
> >>> If it will please you ~ Will you please
> >> No, French has a future tense, and it does not appear in this sentence..
> >>>>> Malay: Silakan = Sila akan = Please will (you) = Will you please
> >
> > Present tense, future tense vs post-present sense...
> > Both 'if' and 'will' refer to a post-present sense.
> "If I had seen a dinosaur yesterday [then] I might have inferred that they
> never actually went extinct."
>
> "If an animal is a dog, [then] it is also a mammal." Post-present sense, implied.
>
> "If someone is very young today, [then] they were probably also very young
> yesterday".
>
> Please explain how the word 'if' refers to a 'post-present sense' in any
> of the above examples.
> André
>
> --
> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
> service.

It does.

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 12:11:12 AM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 15 Dec 2021 12:54:56 -0800 (PST): Daud Deden
> <daud....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> >On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-8, André G. Isaak wrote:
> >> There's no 'will' in _s'il vous plait_. _s'il_ is a contraction of _si_
> >> 'if' and _il_ 'it'.
> >
> >It is implied, just as the 'you' in silakan is implied. I focus on the meaning of the phrase,
> >not the individual words.
> Yeah right. That's a complicated way to say: I don't want to admit I
> was wrong.
> >French elides long words removing middle syllables, they may have erased
> >the 'will' portion.
> That may not have erased that, and they didn't.
> >> So it really *isn't* obvious what your point is unless you are simply
> >> pointing out that it is possible for two sentences in unrelated
> >> languages to start with the same three letters.
> >
> >One language, one phrase in 2 dialects.
> Male cow's shit.

Bulls and steers are male cattle.

> >> I can do better. The following two sentences start with the same FOUR
> >> letters:
> >
> >Irrelevant
> >>
> >> "Chat with me please"
> >>
> >> "Chat, viens ici!"
> >>
> >> But so what?
>
> --
> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 1:41:26 AM UTC-5, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-12-15 22:24, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Wed, 15 Dec 2021 19:33:24 -0700: André G. Isaak <agi...@gm.invalid>
> > scribeva:
> >> The present tense meaning 'in the present'. There's absolutely nothing
> >> 'post-present' about it.
> >>
> >> Do you have any actual knowledge of French or Malay?
> >
> > There is a wide-spread suspicion, that is, I personally have it and
> > that is wide-spread enough for me, that Malay, or Bahasa Indonesia
> > which is very similar, is actually Daud's native tongue.
> I am not even convinced that language is Daud's native language, let
> alone any specific language such as Bahasa Indonesia/Melayu.
> André
>
> --
> To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
> service.

Please translate that to English.