I'm hanging out on linguistic and historic discussion forums on Facebook nowadays. A question has come up. Did the Nabataean script evolve from the Aramaic square script, later known as the Hebrew alphabet or do they have separate origins? Did the Aramaic square script evolve in Mesopotamia during the Babylonian exile?

On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 9:31:43 AM UTC-5, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:

> I'm hanging out on linguistic and historic discussion forums on Facebook nowadays. A question has come up. Did the Nabataean script evolve from the Aramaic square script, later known as the Hebrew alphabet or do they have separate origins? Did the Aramaic square script evolve in Mesopotamia during the Babylonian exile?

Answered in email, but for those who are interested, here are the data:

https://pure.rug.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/3424475/04_h4.pdf

Huge summary charts at the end.

Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:10:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 9:31:43 AM UTC-5, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>
>> I'm hanging out on linguistic and historic discussion forums on Facebook nowadays. A question has come up. Did the Nabataean script evolve from the Aramaic square script, later known as the Hebrew alphabet or do they have separate origins? Did the Aramaic square script evolve in Mesopotamia during the Babylonian exile?
>
>Answered in email, but for those who are interested, here are the data:
>
>https://pure.rug.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/3424475/04_h4.pdf

In Dutch! Took a long time to load, though, although Groningen is only
about 200 km away from here. The blessings of PDF over HTML, I guess.

>Huge summary charts at the end.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 3:32:02 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:10:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 9:31:43 AM UTC-5, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:

> >> I'm hanging out on linguistic and historic discussion forums on Facebook nowadays. A question has come up. Did the Nabataean script evolve from the Aramaic square script, later known as the Hebrew alphabet or do they have separate origins? Did the Aramaic square script evolve in Mesopotamia during the Babylonian exile?
> >
> >Answered in email, but for those who are interested, here are the data:
> >
> >https://pure.rug.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/3424475/04_h4.pdf
>
> In Dutch! Took a long time to load, though, although Groningen is only
> about 200 km away from here. The blessings of PDF over HTML, I guess.

? It opened right away for me. There's a link on that page for what
it calls a "published version," but that link goes to something that
has no different "metadata," so I didn't pursue it.

Many many years ago, he sent me what he said was his last paper
copy, and I discovered I could read it with little difficulty if I took it
to be very badly spelled German, and looked up some function-words.

Meanwhile he published two articles based on it (in English) and left
the field, becoming a librarian in Groningen.

> >Huge summary charts at the end.

Thu, 23 Dec 2021 13:42:20 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 3:32:02 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:10:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 9:31:43 AM UTC-5, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>
>> >> I'm hanging out on linguistic and historic discussion forums on Facebook nowadays. A question has come up. Did the Nabataean script evolve from the Aramaic square script, later known as the Hebrew alphabet or do they have separate origins? Did the Aramaic square script evolve in Mesopotamia during the Babylonian exile?
>> >
>> >Answered in email, but for those who are interested, here are the data:
>> >
>> >https://pure.rug.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/3424475/04_h4.pdf
>>
>> In Dutch! Took a long time to load, though, although Groningen is only
>> about 200 km away from here. The blessings of PDF over HTML, I guess.
>
>? It opened right away for me.

Strange. Even with the help of caching, after opening it several
times, it takes 19 seconds before I see anything. Perhaps it is some
setting in Firefox, that it first downloads the full document, and
only then tries to display the first page? File size is 27.378.070
bytes.

Also tried in Google Chrome: slow too.

>There's a link on that page for what
>it calls a "published version," but that link goes to something that
>has no different "metadata," so I didn't pursue it.
>
>Many many years ago, he sent me what he said was his last paper
>copy, and I discovered I could read it with little difficulty if I took it
>to be very badly spelled German, and looked up some function-words.

Yes, with good German and good English, much of written Dutch should
be understandable, especially if you know the field and terminology.
However, already in the first sentence there is a difficult word:
eeuw, which is century in English and Jahrhundert in German. I realise
I never looked up the etymology.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eeuw
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/aiwaz
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82%C3%B3yu
Latin: aevum.

>Meanwhile he published two articles based on it (in English) and left
>the field, becoming a librarian in Groningen.
>
>> >Huge summary charts at the end.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 3:03:57 AM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 23 Dec 2021 13:42:20 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
> >On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 3:32:02 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:10:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >> >On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 9:31:43 AM UTC-5, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> >
> >> >> I'm hanging out on linguistic and historic discussion forums on Facebook nowadays. A question has come up. Did the Nabataean script evolve from the Aramaic square script, later known as the Hebrew alphabet or do they have separate origins? Did the Aramaic square script evolve in Mesopotamia during the Babylonian exile?
> >> >
> >> >Answered in email, but for those who are interested, here are the data:
> >> >
> >> >https://pure.rug.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/3424475/04_h4.pdf
> >>
> >> In Dutch! Took a long time to load, though, although Groningen is only
> >> about 200 km away from here. The blessings of PDF over HTML, I guess.
> >? It opened right away for me.
>
> Strange. Even with the help of caching, after opening it several
> times, it takes 19 seconds before I see anything. Perhaps it is some
> setting in Firefox, that it first downloads the full document, and
> only then tries to display the first page? File size is 27.378.070
> bytes.

MSEdge also downloads first, but the pause wasn't particularly
noticeable (as it can be with pdfs of earlier books done as graphics
rather than text). I didn't Save it, because I have the paper copy and
wouldn't be too successful at Searching Dutch terms, but I think it
somewhere said it was 1.7M or something like that.

Did you maybe get to an html version, or something?

Or maybe my Verizon FIOS really is superior to older hardware?

> Also tried in Google Chrome: slow too.
>
> >There's a link on that page for what
> >it calls a "published version," but that link goes to something that
> >has no different "metadata," so I didn't pursue it.
> >Many many years ago, he sent me what he said was his last paper
> >copy, and I discovered I could read it with little difficulty if I took it
> >to be very badly spelled German, and looked up some function-words.
>
> Yes, with good German and good English, much of written Dutch should
> be understandable, especially if you know the field and terminology.
> However, already in the first sentence there is a difficult word:
> eeuw, which is century in English and Jahrhundert in German. I realise
> I never looked up the etymology.

Context probably meant that I didn't need to look it up.

> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eeuw
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/aiwaz
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82%C3%B3yu
> Latin: aevum.
>
> >Meanwhile he published two articles based on it (in English) and left
> >the field, becoming a librarian in Groningen.
> >> >Huge summary charts at the end.

Fri, 24 Dec 2021 07:29:12 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>> >> >https://pure.rug.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/3424475/04_h4.pdf
>> >>
>> >> In Dutch! Took a long time to load, though, although Groningen is only
>> >> about 200 km away from here. The blessings of PDF over HTML, I guess.
>> >? It opened right away for me.
>>
>> Strange. Even with the help of caching, after opening it several
>> times, it takes 19 seconds before I see anything. Perhaps it is some
>> setting in Firefox, that it first downloads the full document, and
>> only then tries to display the first page? File size is 27.378.070
>> bytes.
>
>MSEdge also downloads first, but the pause wasn't particularly
>noticeable (as it can be with pdfs of earlier books done as graphics
>rather than text). I didn't Save it, because I have the paper copy and
>wouldn't be too successful at Searching Dutch terms, but I think it
>somewhere said it was 1.7M or something like that.
>
>Did you maybe get to an html version, or something?

No, PDF, but opened in the browser. The opening itself is no factor,
because after downloading the file myself, I noticed no delay.

>Or maybe my Verizon FIOS really is superior to older hardware?

It's probably my slow internet. We have 8 megabits/s download and 1
upload. Then 27.378.070 bytes, or 219024560 bits require, under
optimal circumstances and nothing else going on, 219/8 = 27 seconds,

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Fri, 24 Dec 2021 19:01:38 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Fri, 24 Dec 2021 07:29:12 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
><grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
>>> >> >https://pure.rug.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/3424475/04_h4.pdf
>>> >>
>>> >> In Dutch! Took a long time to load, though, although Groningen is only
>>> >> about 200 km away from here. The blessings of PDF over HTML, I guess.
>>> >? It opened right away for me.
>>>
>>> Strange. Even with the help of caching, after opening it several
>>> times, it takes 19 seconds before I see anything. Perhaps it is some
>>> setting in Firefox, that it first downloads the full document, and
>>> only then tries to display the first page? File size is 27.378.070
>>> bytes.
>>
>>MSEdge also downloads first, but the pause wasn't particularly
>>noticeable (as it can be with pdfs of earlier books done as graphics
>>rather than text). I didn't Save it, because I have the paper copy and
>>wouldn't be too successful at Searching Dutch terms, but I think it
>>somewhere said it was 1.7M or something like that.
>>
>>Did you maybe get to an html version, or something?
>
>No, PDF, but opened in the browser. The opening itself is no factor,
>because after downloading the file myself, I noticed no delay.
>
>>Or maybe my Verizon FIOS really is superior to older hardware?
>
>It's probably my slow internet. We have 8 megabits/s download and 1
>upload. Then 27.378.070 bytes, or 219024560 bits require, under
>optimal circumstances and nothing else going on, 219/8 = 27 seconds,

So my count, using a spoken eenentwintig, tweeëntwintig,
drieëntwintig, etc., to emulate a second, was wrong. What I counted as
19 seconds was actually over 27.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Le vendredi 24 décembre 2021 à 21:34:59 UTC+1, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
> Fri, 24 Dec 2021 19:01:38 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> scribeva:
> >Fri, 24 Dec 2021 07:29:12 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
> ><gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >
> >>> >> >https://pure.rug.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/3424475/04_h4.pdf
> >>> >>
> >>> >> In Dutch! Took a long time to load, though, although Groningen is only
> >>> >> about 200 km away from here. The blessings of PDF over HTML, I guess.
> >>> >? It opened right away for me.
> >>>
> >>> Strange. Even with the help of caching, after opening it several
> >>> times, it takes 19 seconds before I see anything. Perhaps it is some
> >>> setting in Firefox, that it first downloads the full document, and
> >>> only then tries to display the first page? File size is 27.378.070
> >>> bytes.
> >>
> >>MSEdge also downloads first, but the pause wasn't particularly
> >>noticeable (as it can be with pdfs of earlier books done as graphics
> >>rather than text). I didn't Save it, because I have the paper copy and
> >>wouldn't be too successful at Searching Dutch terms, but I think it
> >>somewhere said it was 1.7M or something like that.
> >>
> >>Did you maybe get to an html version, or something?
> >
> >No, PDF, but opened in the browser. The opening itself is no factor,
> >because after downloading the file myself, I noticed no delay.
> >
> >>Or maybe my Verizon FIOS really is superior to older hardware?
> >
> >It's probably my slow internet. We have 8 megabits/s download and 1
> >upload. Then 27.378.070 bytes, or 219024560 bits require, under
> >optimal circumstances and nothing else going on, 219/8 = 27 seconds,
> So my count, using a spoken eenentwintig, tweeëntwintig,
> drieëntwintig, etc., to emulate a second, was wrong. What I counted as
> 19 seconds was actually over 27.
> --
> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Bon et saint Noël à tous !