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tech / sci.lang / Re: Paleo-etymology

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Paleo-etymologyDaud Deden
`* Re: Paleo-etymologyRoss Clark
 +* Re: Paleo-etymologyDaud Deden
 |`- Re: Paleo-etymologyDaud Deden
 `- Re: Paleo-etymologyRuud Harmsen

1
Re: Paleo-etymology

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Subject: Re: Paleo-etymology
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 07:26 UTC

Kiseru @Jpn : long smoking pipe

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiseru

Re: Paleo-etymology

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From: benli...@ihug.co.nz (Ross Clark)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Paleo-etymology
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 09:19:07 +1200
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 by: Ross Clark - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 21:19 UTC

On 25/04/2022 7:26 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> Kiseru @Jpn : long smoking pipe
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiseru
>

A general term for tobacco pipe. Written in kana, so probably not a
native word, and certainly not Chinese. As you can see from the article,
tobacco was only introduced to Japan a few centuries ago. Dutch would be
the first place I'd look for an etymology, but I don't have anything
handy to search with, and it's not listed here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_words_of_Dutch_origin

Nor is it listed here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_words_of_Portuguese_origin

Which is good, because their suggested Portuguese source does not look
at all plausible to me.

The Cambodian word might have the same origin as the Japanese, but I
don't think there was any significant direct contact.

Re: Paleo-etymology

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Subject: Re: Paleo-etymology
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 03:27 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 5:19:12 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 25/04/2022 7:26 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > Kiseru @Jpn : long smoking pipe
> >
> > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiseru
> >
> A general term for tobacco pipe. Written in kana, so probably not a
> native word, and certainly not Chinese. As you can see from the article,
> tobacco was only introduced to Japan a few centuries ago. Dutch would be
> the first place I'd look for an etymology, but I don't have anything
> handy to search with, and it's not listed here:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_words_of_Dutch_origin
>
> Nor is it listed here:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_words_of_Portuguese_origin
>
> Which is good, because their suggested Portuguese source does not look
> at all plausible to me.
>
> The Cambodian word might have the same origin as the Japanese, but I
> don't think there was any significant direct contact.

Thanks. Kiseru from kissel? (fruit punch: sucked from a straw?)
Compare to Malay suck hisap, smoke asap. At least a vague resemblance.
Philippines link via Manilla galleon trade?
Phil suck sumuso, smoke usok.

Japanese word for non-smoking tube or pipe? Nothing similar, but kiseru can mean chimney.
https://www.japandict.com/%E7%85%99%E7%AE%A1

Re: Paleo-etymology

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Subject: Re: Paleo-etymology
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (Daud Deden)
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 by: Daud Deden - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 03:50 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 11:27:30 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 5:19:12 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On 25/04/2022 7:26 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > > Kiseru @Jpn : long smoking pipe
> > >
> > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiseru
> > >
> > A general term for tobacco pipe. Written in kana, so probably not a
> > native word, and certainly not Chinese. As you can see from the article,
> > tobacco was only introduced to Japan a few centuries ago. Dutch would be
> > the first place I'd look for an etymology, but I don't have anything
> > handy to search with, and it's not listed here:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_words_of_Dutch_origin
> >
> > Nor is it listed here:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_words_of_Portuguese_origin
> >
> > Which is good, because their suggested Portuguese source does not look
> > at all plausible to me.
> >
> > The Cambodian word might have the same origin as the Japanese, but I
> > don't think there was any significant direct contact.
> Thanks. Kiseru from kissel? (fruit punch: sucked from a straw?)
> Compare to Malay suck hisap, smoke asap. At least a vague resemblance.
> Philippines link via Manilla galleon trade?
> Phil suck sumuso, smoke usok.
>
> Japanese word for non-smoking tube or pipe? Nothing similar, but kiseru can mean chimney.
> https://www.japandict.com/%E7%85%99%E7%AE%A1
Entotsu smokestack, chimney

Re: Paleo-etymology

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Paleo-etymology
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 07:01:51 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 05:01 UTC

Tue, 26 Apr 2022 09:19:07 +1200: Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
scribeva:

>On 25/04/2022 7:26 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
>> Kiseru @Jpn : long smoking pipe
>>
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiseru
>>
>
>A general term for tobacco pipe. Written in kana, so probably not a
>native word, and certainly not Chinese. As you can see from the article,
>tobacco was only introduced to Japan a few centuries ago. Dutch would be
>the first place I'd look for an etymology, but I don't have anything
>handy to search with, and it's not listed here:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_words_of_Dutch_origin
>
>Nor is it listed here:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_words_of_Portuguese_origin
>
>Which is good, because their suggested Portuguese source does not look
>at all plausible to me.

Neither to me.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%85%99%E7%AE%A1#Etymology_1
suggest that the Japanese comes from Khmer (Cambodean), and that
_that_ word in turn might be from Spanish or Portuguese.

>The Cambodian word might have the same origin as the Japanese, but I
>don't think there was any significant direct contact.

There was contact from Portuguese in Vietnamese, of course, leaving
traces in its spelling system.

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