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tech / sci.lang / Re: German english voice

SubjectAuthor
* Re: German english voiceStefan Ram
+* Re: German english voiceRuud Harmsen
|+* Re: German english voiceHelmut Richter
||+- Re: German english voiceRuud Harmsen
||`- Re: German english voicePeter T. Daniels
|`- Re: German english voiceStefan Ram
`* Re: German english voiceStefan Ram
 `* Re: German english voiceRoss Clark
  `* Re: German english voiceStefan Ram
   `* Re: German english voiceRoss Clark
    `* Re: German english voiceStefan Ram
     +* Re: German english voiceStefan Ram
     |`- Re: German english voiceStefan Ram
     `- Re: German english voiceRuud Harmsen

1
Re: German english voice

<German-accent-20220518225759@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: German english voice
Date: 18 May 2022 22:00:42 GMT
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 by: Stefan Ram - Wed, 18 May 2022 22:00 UTC

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> writes:
>Passable English, but with a German accent. One problem is
>Auslautverhärtung.

(Sorry, have not read this NG; must catch up starting with
older posts from times when Franz Gnädinger was still alive!)

I'm a native speaker of German but not of English.

For me, the most prominent feature of the German
pronunciation of English is the insertion of glottal stops
in front of vowels whenever words start with a vowel.

Then, there sometimes might be a lack of reduction of
vowels in unstressed syllables. Some English dipthongs
might be realized as monophtongs.

Certain specific letters or phonemes might be realized by
incorrect sounds. But this might depend on the speaker,
sometimes one finds th->s/z, s->z, z->s, w->v, ʌ->a, r->ᴙ,
v->f, k->kh, æ->̣ɛ, hw->h, ɜ->œ, ...

Sometimes, the correct pronunciation just might not be
known. For example, "action" is not pronounced with a [t],
but many Germans will insert a [t] into the pronunciation.
Sometimes, the wrong syllable might be stressed, for example,
"array" might be stressed on the first syllable.

Re: German english voice

<islb8hdp4llsr946qpnsun29ur3i2pteeh@4ax.com>

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: German english voice
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 07:40:33 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 05:40 UTC

18 May 2022 22:00:42 GMT: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> writes:
>>Passable English, but with a German accent. One problem is
>>Auslautverhärtung.

From quite an old thread!
https://groups.google.com/g/sci.lang/c/ojF4x9KGOwQ/m/07HLhPbIBAAJ
Nice to survive it.

> (Sorry, have not read this NG; must catch up starting with
> older posts from times when Franz Gnädinger was still alive!)
>
> I'm a native speaker of German but not of English.
>
> For me, the most prominent feature of the German
> pronunciation of English is the insertion of glottal stops
> in front of vowels whenever words start with a vowel.

Yes. Although native English sometimes does that too, but less
prominently.

> Then, there sometimes might be a lack of reduction of
> vowels in unstressed syllables. Some English dipthongs
> might be realized as monophtongs.

> Certain specific letters or phonemes might be realized by
> incorrect sounds. But this might depend on the speaker,
> sometimes one finds th->s/z, s->z, z->s, w->v, ?->a, r->?,
> v->f, k->kh, æ->??, hw->h, ?->œ, ...

Vee hef vays too make you tok!

> Sometimes, the correct pronunciation just might not be
> known. For example, "action" is not pronounced with a [t],
> but many Germans will insert a [t] into the pronunciation.

Yes! Many Dutch people do that too.

> Sometimes, the wrong syllable might be stressed, for example,
> "array" might be stressed on the first syllable.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: German english voice

<alpine.DEB.2.22.394.2205190915490.2255@kiboko2>

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From: hr.use...@email.de (Helmut Richter)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: German english voice
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 09:28:16 +0200
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 by: Helmut Richter - Thu, 19 May 2022 07:28 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> 18 May 2022 22:00:42 GMT: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
> scribeva:

> > Certain specific letters or phonemes might be realized by
> > incorrect sounds. But this might depend on the speaker,
> > sometimes one finds th->s/z, s->z, z->s, w->v, ?->a, r->?,
> > v->f, k->kh, æ->??, hw->h, ?->œ, ...
>
> Vee hef vays too make you tok!

For me, raised in S Germany with parents from E Germany, this sounds very
odd. In the S and E, [v] is not a phoneme but consistently replaced by a
bilabial approximant. Hear the two audio files on the right hand side of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilabial_approximant, especially the lower.
I find this a much more natural sound for pronouncing a German <w> than
the one in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_labiodental_fricative. I am
aware that this is not correct stage pronunciation.

A funny thing which I observe is that I have no problems in clearly
distinguishing English “vine” from “wine” even when talking fast, but I
find it much harder to read a German text aloud with conistently
pronouncing all -w- as [v].

--
Helmut Richter

Re: German english voice

<vq7c8hhd5arlif7pa35qht7lrvqnclf649@4ax.com>

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: German english voice
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 12:48:30 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Thu, 19 May 2022 10:48 UTC

Thu, 19 May 2022 09:28:16 +0200: Helmut Richter <hr.usenet@email.de>
scribeva:

>On Thu, 19 May 2022, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> 18 May 2022 22:00:42 GMT: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>> scribeva:
>
>> > Certain specific letters or phonemes might be realized by
>> > incorrect sounds. But this might depend on the speaker,
>> > sometimes one finds th->s/z, s->z, z->s, w->v, ?->a, r->?,
>> > v->f, k->kh, æ->??, hw->h, ?->œ, ...
>>
>> Vee hef vays too make you tok!
>
>For me, raised in S Germany with parents from E Germany, this sounds very
>odd. In the S and E, [v] is not a phoneme but consistently replaced by a
>bilabial approximant. Hear the two audio files on the right hand side of
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilabial_approximant, especially the lower.
>I find this a much more natural sound for pronouncing a German <w> than
>the one in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_labiodental_fricative. I am
>aware that this is not correct stage pronunciation.

Quite interesting!

That means South and East-Germany have the same kind of <w> (bilabial)
as Southern variants of Dutch (the South of the Netherlands and all of
Dutch speaking Belgium), and the rest of the Netherlands and the rest
of Germany also have the same <w>: labiodental.

>A funny thing which I observe is that I have no problems in clearly
>distinguishing English “vine” from “wine” even when talking fast, but I
>find it much harder to read a German text aloud with conistently
>pronouncing all -w- as [v].

To make it more complicated, many variants of Dutch have three sounds,
perhaps also phonemes, <w>, <v> and <f>:
https://rudhar.com/fonetics/fvw/fvw.htm .
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Re: German english voice

<f0a8dc54-fac5-4c57-8d0f-45cdb1e80365n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: German english voice
From: gramma...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels)
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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Thu, 19 May 2022 11:45 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 3:28:21 AM UTC-4, Helmut Richter wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> > 18 May 2022 22:00:42 GMT: r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
> > scribeva:
> > > Certain specific letters or phonemes might be realized by
> > > incorrect sounds. But this might depend on the speaker,
> > > sometimes one finds th->s/z, s->z, z->s, w->v, ?->a, r->?,
> > > v->f, k->kh, æ->??, hw->h, ?->œ, ...
> >
> > Vee hef vays too make you tok!
> For me, raised in S Germany with parents from E Germany, this sounds very
> odd. In the S and E, [v] is not a phoneme but consistently replaced by a
> bilabial approximant. Hear the two audio files on the right hand side of
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilabial_approximant, especially the lower.
> I find this a much more natural sound for pronouncing a German <w> than
> the one in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_labiodental_fricative. I am
> aware that this is not correct stage pronunciation.

Burt English has no bilabial fricative, so we hear that as

Vee haff vayss off making you talk

(not "to make")

> A funny thing which I observe is that I have no problems in clearly
> distinguishing English “vine” from “wine” even when talking fast, but I
> find it much harder to read a German text aloud with conistently
> pronouncing all -w- as [v].

Re: German english voice

<pronunciation-20220520162916@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: German english voice
Date: 20 May 2022 15:34:09 GMT
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 by: Stefan Ram - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:34 UTC

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> writes:
>18 May 2022 22:00:42 GMT: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>scribeva:
....
>>For me, the most prominent feature of the German
>>pronunciation of English is the insertion of glottal stops
>>in front of vowels whenever words start with a vowel.
>Yes. Although native English sometimes does that too, but less
>prominently.

Native speakers sometimes use the glottal stop to add
emphasis to a syllable that begins with a vowel sound,
to avoid a hiatus, or in certain interjections such as
en-US "uh-uh".

So, to a native speaker, a German might sound as if he
wants to emphasize the initial syllable of every word
that begins with a vowel. But once the native speaker
understands that this is a German accent, he will probably
then correctly classify the glottal stops as an accent.

Re: German english voice

<lenght-20220529224556@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: German english voice
Date: 29 May 2022 21:46:36 GMT
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 by: Stefan Ram - Sun, 29 May 2022 21:46 UTC

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>For me, the most prominent feature of the German
>pronunciation of English is the insertion of glottal stops
>in front of vowels whenever words start with a vowel.

English, at least American English, also has different
vowels lengths, some sounds are long. Recently I observed
that something was off with the pronunciation of many non-
native speakers I heard on videos of talks, and I was not
sure what it was, but my first guess is that they often
seem to realize all vowels as short vowels.

(Another problem might be a non-native prosody. But this
topic is difficult for me, since it might be more difficult
to learn about it, to get learning material for this.
It is also not easy for me to hear, since my ears are not
trained to notice it explicitly.)

Re: German english voice

<t7127b$d8p$1@dont-email.me>

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From: benli...@ihug.co.nz (Ross Clark)
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Subject: Re: German english voice
Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 12:13:23 +1200
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 by: Ross Clark - Mon, 30 May 2022 00:13 UTC

On 30/05/2022 9:46 a.m., Stefan Ram wrote:
> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>> For me, the most prominent feature of the German
>> pronunciation of English is the insertion of glottal stops
>> in front of vowels whenever words start with a vowel.
>
> English, at least American English, also has different
> vowels lengths, some sounds are long. Recently I observed
> that something was off with the pronunciation of many non-
> native speakers I heard on videos of talks, and I was not
> sure what it was, but my first guess is that they often
> seem to realize all vowels as short vowels.

There is intrinsic vowel length in all varieties of English -- some
vowels are longer than others, ceteris paribus. The trouble is that
vowel quality is considered to be _the_ distinctive feature, and length
to be an automatic concomitant of certain qualities. So length is not
taught, but has to be picked up by ear, and some learners don't pick it up.

> (Another problem might be a non-native prosody. But this
> topic is difficult for me, since it might be more difficult
> to learn about it, to get learning material for this.
> It is also not easy for me to hear, since my ears are not
> trained to notice it explicitly.)
>
>

Re: German english voice

<length-20220530013537@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: German english voice
Date: 30 May 2022 00:37:28 GMT
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 by: Stefan Ram - Mon, 30 May 2022 00:37 UTC

Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> writes: So length is not
>taught, but has to be picked up by ear, and some learners don't pick it up.

IIRC, it was not taught explicitly in the English class when
I went to school (but possibly implicitly when the teacher
spoke English), but some books give the length using length
markers in phonetic notation. So eager learners do not have
to depend on their ears but also could learn it from books.

Some examples from my notes which are often based on
phonetic notation I find in books:

erroneous [ ɩ ˈɹoˑʊ niəs ]
afternoon [ ˌæf tɚ ˈnuːn ] (uː = ʊˑu)
institution [ ˌɩnst ɩ ˈtuːʃ n̩ ]

.

ɩ more open and back than [i], between [i] and [ə], unrounded [Y]

Re: German english voice

<t725c6$p1k$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: German english voice
Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 22:13:18 +1200
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 by: Ross Clark - Mon, 30 May 2022 10:13 UTC

On 30/05/2022 12:37 p.m., Stefan Ram wrote:
> Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> writes: So length is not
>> taught, but has to be picked up by ear, and some learners don't pick it up.
>
> IIRC, it was not taught explicitly in the English class when
> I went to school (but possibly implicitly when the teacher
> spoke English), but some books give the length using length
> markers in phonetic notation. So eager learners do not have
> to depend on their ears but also could learn it from books.
>
> Some examples from my notes which are often based on
> phonetic notation I find in books:
>
> erroneous [ ɩ ˈɹoˑʊ niəs ]
> afternoon [ ˌæf tɚ ˈnuːn ] (uː = ʊˑu)
> institution [ ˌɩnst ɩ ˈtuːʃ n̩ ]
>
> .
>
> ɩ more open and back than [i], between [i] and [ə], unrounded [Y]
>

Yes, if you have good phonetic transcriptions and know how to read them,
it helps.
Some of the non-native speakers you heard may have an L1 in which vowel
length does not vary much. They try to match vowel quality by ear, but
it does not occur to them that duration is involved.

Re: German english voice

<German-20220530120548@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

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Subject: Re: German english voice
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 by: Stefan Ram - Mon, 30 May 2022 11:08 UTC

Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> writes:
>Some of the non-native speakers you heard may have an L1 in which vowel
>length does not vary much. They try to match vowel quality by ear, but
>it does not occur to them that duration is involved.

I have created a small mp3 file (105 kb, 11 seconds) with a
comparison between a generated American English voice and
a voice of a human speaker, presumably a German speaker,
of English (not me, but from a video of a talk!).

http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/mp3_jf47ht81Ht/german.mp3

The German voice sounded strikingly German to me,
but it is difficult for me to say why exactly.

Spoiler warning: Do not read on if you want to first hear
the audio resource without having read my interpretation.

Of course, a big difference is the very contracted way
in which the German says "There are". But while there is
no accepted "there're" contraction, some English speakers
may contract these words more than the generated voice.

Then the generated voice has many strong pitch changes which
I do not hear from the German speaker. I don't know if this
has more to do with female speakers having stronger pitch
changes than male speakers or with English speakers having
stronger pitch changes than German speakers. You can also
see this in the spectrogram: The generated voice's f0 is
waved, the German voice's f0 is flat.

But there must be more to it (why the German speaker sounds
so strikingly German)! I am just not able to say clearly
what it is. Maybe one of the readers of this post can hear
more than I can?

Re: German english voice

<t-20220530121843@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: German english voice
Date: 30 May 2022 11:19:01 GMT
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 by: Stefan Ram - Mon, 30 May 2022 11:19 UTC

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>But there must be more to it (why the German speaker sounds
>so strikingly German)! I am just not able to say clearly
>what it is. Maybe one of the readers of this post can hear
>more than I can?

Ok, now I hear that the German speaker has an audible
release of the "t" at the very end ("about"), which the
generated voice does not have.

Re: German english voice

<stress-20220530122832@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

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Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: German english voice
Date: 30 May 2022 11:28:47 GMT
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 by: Stefan Ram - Mon, 30 May 2022 11:28 UTC

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>Ok, now I hear that the German speaker has an audible
>release of the "t" at the very end ("about"), which the
>generated voice does not have.

It might be difficult to measure stress, but I can see
that the second syllable "bout" of "about" [əˈboˑʊt] is
louder than the first syllable when the word is said by
the generated voice. When it is said by the German voice,
the first syllable is louder instead.

Re: German english voice

<a5f99htmmlfdgisptq33s988lq3ns23kev@4ax.com>

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From: rh...@rudhar.com (Ruud Harmsen)
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Subject: Re: German english voice
Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 14:48:20 +0200
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 by: Ruud Harmsen - Mon, 30 May 2022 12:48 UTC

30 May 2022 11:08:36 GMT: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
scribeva:

>Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> writes:
>>Some of the non-native speakers you heard may have an L1 in which vowel
>>length does not vary much. They try to match vowel quality by ear, but
>>it does not occur to them that duration is involved.
>
> I have created a small mp3 file (105 kb, 11 seconds) with a
> comparison between a generated American English voice and
> a voice of a human speaker, presumably a German speaker,
> of English (not me, but from a video of a talk!).
>
>http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/mp3_jf47ht81Ht/german.mp3
>
> The German voice sounded strikingly German to me,
> but it is difficult for me to say why exactly.

The German may also be Danish, and there is something off with his
intonation.

> Spoiler warning: Do not read on if you want to first hear
> the audio resource without having read my interpretation.
>
> Of course, a big difference is the very contracted way
> in which the German says "There are". But while there is
> no accepted "there're" contraction, some English speakers
> may contract these words more than the generated voice.
>
> Then the generated voice has many strong pitch changes which
> I do not hear from the German speaker.

The other way round, as I hear it.

> I don't know if this
> has more to do with female speakers having stronger pitch
> changes than male speakers or with English speakers having
> stronger pitch changes than German speakers. You can also
> see this in the spectrogram: The generated voice's f0 is
> waved, the German voice's f0 is flat.
>
> But there must be more to it (why the German speaker sounds
> so strikingly German)! I am just not able to say clearly
> what it is. Maybe one of the readers of this post can hear
> more than I can?
>

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

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