A serious etymology question (serious answers only, please):

Would Latin focus ('fire') and Greek fos/fota (light; perhaps also
fire?) be related via Indo-European? Wiktionary isn't clear about
this.

English fire and Greekish pyrotechnics are.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On 2/07/2022 5:16 a.m., Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> A serious etymology question (serious answers only, please):
>
> Would Latin focus ('fire') and Greek fos/fota (light; perhaps also
> fire?) be related via Indo-European? Wiktionary isn't clear about
> this.

Greek phōs (phōt-) 'light' from IE *bhā- 'shine' (*bheH1-) (Watkins).
Doesn't mean 'fire'.
Latin focus 'hearth, fireplace'. No known IE etymology.

But the similarity is enough that many people must have thought of it.
The fact that it's not even mentioned as a possibility by my sources
suggests to me that it's been checked out and rejected, rather than
overlooked.

>
> English fire and Greekish pyrotechnics are.

Agreed. Watkins gives *paəwr̩ [r marked as syllabic, I think]

On 2022-07-01, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

> Would Latin focus ('fire') and Greek fos/fota (light; perhaps also
> fire?) be related via Indo-European? Wiktionary isn't clear about
> this.

Well, IE *bh > Greek ph and Latin f, so that works. But -c- and -t-?

Looking it up, the origin of Latin focus is unknown/contentious.
De Vaan's Etymological Dictionary of Latin offers no suggestion,
but finds a connection with Latin fax and Lithuanian žvakė "formally
impossible", and a back-formation from foculus "chronologically
difficult".

I think it's clear if focus / phot- could be made to work, people
would have offered an etymological connection a looong time ago.

Oh, and focus means 'hearth, fireplace'. It only replaced ignis
'fire' in Vulgar Latin > Romance.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Fri, 1 Jul 2022 20:32:24 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:

>On 2022-07-01, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>> Would Latin focus ('fire') and Greek fos/fota (light; perhaps also
>> fire?) be related via Indo-European? Wiktionary isn't clear about
>> this.
>
>Well, IE *bh > Greek ph and Latin f, so that works. But -c- and -t-?
>
>Looking it up, the origin of Latin focus is unknown/contentious.
>De Vaan's Etymological Dictionary of Latin offers no suggestion,
>but finds a connection with Latin fax and Lithuanian žvak? "formally
>impossible", and a back-formation from foculus "chronologically
>difficult".
>
>I think it's clear if focus / phot- could be made to work, people
>would have offered an etymological connection a looong time ago.
>
>Oh, and focus means 'hearth, fireplace'. It only replaced ignis
>'fire' in Vulgar Latin > Romance.

Hogar in Spanish still does. And fogo in Portuguese can mean house,
family.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On 2/07/2022 7:24 p.m., Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Fri, 1 Jul 2022 20:32:24 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
> <naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:
>
>> On 2022-07-01, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Would Latin focus ('fire') and Greek fos/fota (light; perhaps also
>>> fire?) be related via Indo-European? Wiktionary isn't clear about
>>> this.
>>
>> Well, IE *bh > Greek ph and Latin f, so that works. But -c- and -t-?
>>
>> Looking it up, the origin of Latin focus is unknown/contentious.
>> De Vaan's Etymological Dictionary of Latin offers no suggestion,
>> but finds a connection with Latin fax and Lithuanian žvak? "formally
>> impossible", and a back-formation from foculus "chronologically
>> difficult".
>>
>> I think it's clear if focus / phot- could be made to work, people
>> would have offered an etymological connection a looong time ago.
>>
>> Oh, and focus means 'hearth, fireplace'. It only replaced ignis
>> 'fire' in Vulgar Latin > Romance.
>
> Hogar in Spanish still does.

This is a derived noun, ?focarium (cf. French foyer), which replaces
focus as 'hearth' when the latter shifts to 'fire'.

And fogo in Portuguese can mean house,
> family.

as well as 'fire'. This might be a later extension, or perhaps it
brought some of the original meaning with it. A Romance specialist would
know -- is Antonio still around?

On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 1:16:03 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> A serious etymology question (serious answers only, please):
>
> Would Latin focus ('fire') and Greek fos/fota (light; perhaps also
> fire?) be related via Indo-European? Wiktionary isn't clear about
> this.
>
> English fire and Greekish pyrotechnics are.
> --
> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud, I know you're patiently awaiting my help. ;~}

Well, I agree with Ross & Christian,

But it seems odd:

Ochre
Poker (fire)
Smoke(r)
Toke
Focus
Choke (car engine burn fuel)

= "okV" ~ cf olaah @ Hbr : burnt offering; olah @ Bsq : forge

*ker- (3)
Proto-Indo-European root meaning "heat, fire."
It forms all or part of: carbon; carboniferous; carbuncle; cremate; cremation; hearth.
It is the hypothetical source of/evidence for its existence is provided by: Sanskrit kudayati "singes;" Latin carbo "a coal, glowing coal; charcoal," cremare "to burn;" Lithuanian kuriu, kurti "to heat," karštas "hot," krosnis "oven;" Old Church Slavonic kurjo "to smoke," krada "fireplace, hearth;" Russian ceren "brazier;" Old High German harsta "roasting;" Gothic hauri "coal;" Old Norse hyrr "fire;" Old English heorð "hearth."
- [The only (fire)place where it is safe to strike a spark/forge?]

PIE *kau- "to hew, strike," a root more widely developed in Slavic (source also of Old Church Slavonic kovo, Lithuanian kauti "to strike, beat, fight;" Polish kuć "to forge," Russian kovat' "to strike, hammer, forge;" Latin cudere "to strike, beat;" Middle Irish cuad "beat, fight").
- smoke (n.1)
late Old English smoca (rare) "fumes and volatile material given off by burning substances," related to smeocan "give off smoke," from Proto-Germanic *smuk- (source also of Middle Dutch smooc, Dutch smook, Middle High German smouch, German Schmauch), from PIE root *smeug- "to smoke; smoke" (source also of Armenian mux "smoke," Greek smykhein "to burn with smoldering flame," Old Irish much, Welsh mwg "smoke"

[I would even venture a possible link to oracle / ora-, aurah, aurat @Arb, though others will think it is nonsense.]

oracle (n.)
late 14c., "a message from a god expressed by divine inspiration through a priest or priestess," in answer to a human inquiry, usually respecting some future event, from Old French oracle "temple, house of prayer; oracle" (12c.) and directly from Latin oraculum, oraclum "divine announcement, oracle; place where oracles are given," from ōrare "to pray to, plead to, beseech" (see orator), with material instrumental suffix -culo.

Cheers!
DD