A recent development in deciphering linear Elamite
<https://www.dw.com/en/archaeological-mystery-ancient-elamite-script-from-iran-deciphered/a-62849976>

On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 1:16:42 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> A recent development in deciphering linear Elamite
> <https://www.dw.com/en/archaeological-mystery-ancient-elamite-script-from-iran-deciphered/a-62849976>

Not the slightest hint of where to find the publication being
described, which apparently includes a Commentary section
such as is provided for the most important articles in a few
major journals.

On 21/08/2022 1:21 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 1:16:42 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>
>> A recent development in deciphering linear Elamite
>> <https://www.dw.com/en/archaeological-mystery-ancient-elamite-script-from-iran-deciphered/a-62849976>
>
> Not the slightest hint of where to find the publication being
> described, which apparently includes a Commentary section
> such as is provided for the most important articles in a few
> major journals.
>

A link in the text of that article leads to:

Published by De Gruyter July 1, 2022
The Decipherment of Linear Elamite Writing
François Desset, Kambiz Tabibzadeh, Matthieu Kervran, Gian Pietro
Basello and and Gianni Marchesi

From the journal Zeitschrift für Assyriologie und vorderasiatische
Archäologie
https://doi.org/10.1515/za-2022-0003

You currently have no access to view or download this content. Please
log in with your institutional or personal account if you should have
access to this content through either of these. Showing a limited
preview of this publication:

Abstract

Linear Elamite writing was used in southern Iran in the late 3rd/early
2nd millennium BCE (ca. 2300–1880 BCE). First discovered during the
French excavations at Susa from 1903 onwards, it has so far resisted
decipherment. The publication of eight inscribed silver beakers in 2018
provided the materials and the starting point for a new attempt; its
results are presented in this paper. A full description and analysis of
Linear Elamite of writing, employed for recording the Elamite language,
is given here for the first time, together with a discussion of Elamite
phonology and the biscriptualism that characterizes this language in its
earliest documented phase.

Published Online: 2022-07-01
Published in Print: 2022-07-26

© 2022 Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin/Boston

Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:23:05 +1200: Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
scribeva:
>© 2022 Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin/Boston

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter
Wonder how that name is pronounced in German and English. It is
originally Dutch, obviously. We had a grocery store stain by that name
until recently. Or grocery may even what the name or word meant.

Albert Heijn is sometimes jokingly called "grootgrutter". Would
grutter be a variant of gruiter/gruyter?

Yes:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grutter
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grootgrutter#Dutch
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kruidenier#Dutch

No: a brewer:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gruyter

<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Gruyter_(winkelketen)>

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On 21.08.2022 10:05, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

>https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kruidenier#Dutch

But this kruidenier ("grocer; Krämer, Nahrungsmittelhändler") has a
similar pronunciation. Maybe Gruyter is only an older Dutch spelling?

BTW: how is it to be pronounced? Gröjter or Grüjter? Or, as in German,
.... Kräuter /kʁɔɪtəː/? :-) OMG: Ger. "Kräuter" = Dutch "kruiden".

So, a kruidenier might initially have been someone who dealt with ...
herbs? In German singular Kraut, Kräuter; meaning not only "cabbage,
cole" (chiefly in Southern German dialects), but also "herb, weed" in
general; for "weed", esp. "Unkraut".
cf the saying "Unkraut vergeht (or) verdirbt nicht" <= Latin "Mala herba
non interit". (I'm not sure: 'Ill weeds grow apace?')

Tim

Op 21/08/2022 om 10:45 schreef Tim Lang:
> On 21.08.2022 10:05, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kruidenier#Dutch
>
> But this kruidenier ("grocer; Krämer, Nahrungsmittelhändler") has a
> similar pronunciation. Maybe Gruyter is only an older Dutch spelling?

No, no connection.

> BTW: how is it to be pronounced? Gröjter or Grüjter? Or, as in German,
> ... Kräuter /kʁɔɪtəː/? :-) OMG: Ger. "Kräuter" = Dutch "kruiden".

No, rather like French oeil, (f)euille. Only that when followed by
consonants the [-j] glide becomes an [-y] (ü) glide, compare bui [-j],
uit [-yt].

> So, a kruidenier might initially have been someone who dealt with ...
> herbs? In German singular Kraut, Kräuter; meaning not only "cabbage,
> cole" (chiefly in Southern German dialects), but also "herb, weed" in
> general; for "weed", esp. "Unkraut".
> cf the saying "Unkraut vergeht (or) verdirbt nicht" <= Latin "Mala herba
> non interit". (I'm not sure: 'Ill weeds grow apace?')

Onkruid vergaat niet.

--
guido 'wugi'

Op 21/08/2022 om 10:05 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:23:05 +1200: Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
> scribeva:
>> © 2022 Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin/Boston
>
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter
> Wonder how that name is pronounced in German and English. It is
> originally Dutch, obviously. We had a grocery store stain by that name
> until recently. Or grocery may even what the name or word meant.
>
> Albert Heijn is sometimes jokingly called "grootgrutter". Would
> grutter be a variant of gruiter/gruyter?
>
> Yes:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grutter
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grootgrutter#Dutch
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kruidenier#Dutch
>
> No: a brewer:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gruyter
>
> <https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Gruyter_(winkelketen)>

All related: grut, gruit/gruut, gort, gruis.
According to my old Verschueren, gruit is an "unknown vegetable
ingredient" used for brewing beer, before hop.

De Gruyter vs. [NL] De Gruijter. So why not De Gruÿter :o)

--
guido 'wugi' Wuyts

Sun, 21 Aug 2022 10:45:59 +0200: Tim Lang <me@privacy.net> scribeva:

>On 21.08.2022 10:05, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>>https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kruidenier#Dutch
>
>But this kruidenier ("grocer; Krämer, Nahrungsmittelhändler") has a
>similar pronunciation. Maybe Gruyter is only an older Dutch spelling?

Don't think so, kruid is an existing word, and k and g aren't easily
exchangeable.

>BTW: how is it to be pronounced? Gröjter or Grüjter? Or, as in German,
>... Kräuter /k???t??/? :-) OMG: Ger. "Kräuter" = Dutch "kruiden".

Dutch <ui> is a diphthong, from half open to closed, almost front,
rounded. Starts with the first element of French oeil (eye), and ends
in the ü of German Brücke.

<ui> is the rounded counterpart of <ei> and <ij>.

>So, a kruidenier might initially have been someone who dealt with ...
>herbs?

Yes. And specerijen, spices, like kruidnagelen, nootmuskaat, kaneel.

>In German singular Kraut, Kräuter; meaning not only "cabbage,
>cole" (chiefly in Southern German dialects), but also "herb, weed" in
>general; for "weed", esp. "Unkraut".
>cf the saying "Unkraut vergeht (or) verdirbt nicht" <= Latin "Mala herba
>non interit". (I'm not sure: 'Ill weeds grow apace?')

Onkruid vergaat niet, yes.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 8:23:15 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 21/08/2022 1:21 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 1:16:42 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> >> A recent development in deciphering linear Elamite
> >> <https://www.dw.com/en/archaeological-mystery-ancient-elamite-script-from-iran-deciphered/a-62849976>
> >
> > Not the slightest hint of where to find the publication being
> > described, which apparently includes a Commentary section
> > such as is provided for the most important articles in a few
> > major journals.
> >
> A link in the text of that article leads to:
>
> Published by De Gruyter July 1, 2022
> The Decipherment of Linear Elamite Writing
> François Desset, Kambiz Tabibzadeh, Matthieu Kervran, Gian Pietro
> Basello and and Gianni Marchesi
>
> From the journal Zeitschrift für Assyriologie und vorderasiatische
> Archäologie
> https://doi.org/10.1515/za-2022-0003

Thanks. I can get to ZA through the library web site. These
apparent bilinguals are unprecedented so presumably provide
a major key.

> You currently have no access to view or download this content. Please
> log in with your institutional or personal account if you should have
> access to this content through either of these. Showing a limited
> preview of this publication:
>
>
> Abstract
>
> Linear Elamite writing was used in southern Iran in the late 3rd/early
> 2nd millennium BCE (ca. 2300–1880 BCE). First discovered during the
> French excavations at Susa from 1903 onwards, it has so far resisted
> decipherment. The publication of eight inscribed silver beakers in 2018
> provided the materials and the starting point for a new attempt; its
> results are presented in this paper. A full description and analysis of
> Linear Elamite of writing, employed for recording the Elamite language,
> is given here for the first time, together with a discussion of Elamite
> phonology and the biscriptualism that characterizes this language in its
> earliest documented phase.
>
> Published Online: 2022-07-01
> Published in Print: 2022-07-26
>
> © 2022 Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin/Boston

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 4:05:59 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:23:05 +1200: Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz>
> scribeva:

> >© 2022 Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin/Boston
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter
> Wonder how that name is pronounced in German and English. It is
> originally Dutch, obviously. We had a grocery store stain by that name
> until recently. Or grocery may even what the name or word meant.

They're a major publisher in Oriental Studies and Linguistics.
In English, /d@'gaytr/ "d'GRIGH-tr."

> Albert Heijn is sometimes jokingly called "grootgrutter". Would
> grutter be a variant of gruiter/gruyter?
>
> Yes:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grutter
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grootgrutter#Dutch
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kruidenier#Dutch
>
> No: a brewer:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gruyter
>
> <https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Gruyter_(winkelketen)>
>
> --
> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On 2022-08-21, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

>>© 2022 Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin/Boston
>
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter
> Wonder how that name is pronounced in German and English.

German Wikipedia gives [də ˈɡʁɔʏ̯tɐ].

The publisher has a YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DegruyterPublishers

Presumably they'll mention the name there...
E.g. right at the start here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ebzb9VbHws

And here in English:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEpZ7EkCAsI&t=50s

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Sun, 21 Aug 2022 05:45:01 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 4:05:59 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:23:05 +1200: Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz>
>> scribeva:
>
>> >© 2022 Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin/Boston
>> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter
>> Wonder how that name is pronounced in German and English. It is
>> originally Dutch, obviously. We had a grocery store stain by that name
>> until recently. Or grocery may even what the name or word meant.
>
>They're a major publisher in Oriental Studies and Linguistics.
>In English, /d@'graytr/ "d'GRIGH-tr."

[obvious typo corrected]

I agree, that's the closest you can get. But in Dutch, graait and
gruit are not the same.

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 3:30:06 PM UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2022-08-21, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
> >>© 2022 Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin/Boston
> >
> > https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter
> > Wonder how that name is pronounced in German and English.
> German Wikipedia gives [də ˈɡʁɔʏ̯tɐ].

I see, as if written Greuter. Quite different from the Dutch way to say it.

> The publisher has a YouTube channel:
> https://www.youtube.com/c/DegruyterPublishers
>
> Presumably they'll mention the name there...
> E.g. right at the start here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ebzb9VbHws

Bad sound quality, but clearly audible nevertheless. Quite like
what Wiki mentioned.

> And here in English:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEpZ7EkCAsI&t=50s

Is that a Griter or a Groyter? Somewhere in between, maybe.

Well, anyway, the original person Walter de Gruyter was already
German, not Dutch, kin 1862: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter,
so how relevant is the Dutch pronunciation? Not very relevant,
to say the least, sillily answering my own rhetorical question.

Op 21/08/2022 om 16:27 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> Sun, 21 Aug 2022 05:45:01 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
>> On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 4:05:59 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>> Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:23:05 +1200: Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz>
>>> scribeva:
>>
>>>> © 2022 Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin/Boston
>>> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter
>>> Wonder how that name is pronounced in German and English. It is
>>> originally Dutch, obviously. We had a grocery store stain by that name
>>> until recently. Or grocery may even what the name or word meant.
>>
>> They're a major publisher in Oriental Studies and Linguistics.
>> In English, /d@'graytr/ "d'GRIGH-tr."
>
> [obvious typo corrected]
>
> I agree, that's the closest you can get. But in Dutch, graait and
> gruit are not the same.

In Africa I've been called monsieur Vitse, Vuitse, Vouitse, OUeuilletse,
and Mister Whites, Woyts and Yoot. Though generally monsieur Guido, and
G(w)eedowe.

--
guido 'wugi' wuyts

On 21.08.2022 14:34, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

>Dutch <ui> is a diphthong, from half open to closed, almost front,
>rounded. Starts with the first element of French oeil (eye), and ends
>in the ü of German Brücke.

So for native speakers of German dialects rather Gröjter and Stöjvesant?
(BTW: Are there no examples/exceptions of the long-u /u:/ transformation
/öj/ instead of South German and ... Englisch /au/? In the /au/ world:
Hus > Haus, house, Mus > Maus, mouse, ut > aus, out etc. In these cases
Dutch seems to have ut and uit only.)

thnx
Tim

Sun, 21 Aug 2022 16:59:21 +0200: wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> scribeva:

>Op 21/08/2022 om 16:27 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>> Sun, 21 Aug 2022 05:45:01 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>
>>> On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 4:05:59 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>> Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:23:05 +1200: Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz>
>>>> scribeva:
>>>
>>>>> © 2022 Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin/Boston
>>>> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter
>>>> Wonder how that name is pronounced in German and English. It is
>>>> originally Dutch, obviously. We had a grocery store stain by that name
>>>> until recently. Or grocery may even what the name or word meant.
>>>
>>> They're a major publisher in Oriental Studies and Linguistics.
>>> In English, /d@'graytr/ "d'GRIGH-tr."
>>
>> [obvious typo corrected]
>>
>> I agree, that's the closest you can get. But in Dutch, graait and
>> gruit are not the same.
>
>In Africa I've been called monsieur Vitse, Vuitse, Vouitse, OUeuilletse,
>and Mister Whites, Woyts and Yoot. Though generally monsieur Guido, and
>G(w)eedowe.

Quite amusing. Or tragic and irritating? No, amusing I would think.

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 10:40:11 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 3:30:06 PM UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> > On 2022-08-21, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:

> > >>© 2022 Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin/Boston
> > > https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter
> > > Wonder how that name is pronounced in German and English.
> > German Wikipedia gives [də ˈɡʁɔʏ̯tɐ].
> I see, as if written Greuter. Quite different from the Dutch way to say it.
> > The publisher has a YouTube channel:
> > https://www.youtube.com/c/DegruyterPublishers

> > Presumably they'll mention the name there...
> > E.g. right at the start here:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ebzb9VbHws
> Bad sound quality, but clearly audible nevertheless. Quite like
> what Wiki mentioned.
> > And here in English:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEpZ7EkCAsI&t=50s
>
> Is that a Griter or a Groyter? Somewhere in between, maybe.

Caitlin (the host, sounds American) says "de Groyter" [Oj],
but that's not how their German salespeople at US meetings
say it.

> Well, anyway, the original person Walter de Gruyter was already
> German, not Dutch, kin 1862: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter,
> so how relevant is the Dutch pronunciation? Not very relevant,
> to say the least, sillily answering my own rhetorical question.

No, answering it wisely!

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 11:33:27 AM UTC-4, Tim Lang wrote:
> On 21.08.2022 14:34, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> >Dutch <ui> is a diphthong, from half open to closed, almost front,
> >rounded. Starts with the first element of French oeil (eye), and ends
> >in the ü of German Brücke.
>
> So for native speakers of German dialects rather Gröjter and Stöjvesant?
> (BTW: Are there no examples/exceptions of the long-u /u:/ transformation
> /öj/ instead of South German and ... Englisch /au/? In the /au/ world:
> Hus > Haus, house, Mus > Maus, mouse, ut > aus, out etc. In these cases
> Dutch seems to have ut and uit only.)

The New York Stuyvesants (and there are a lot of them) are
uniformly /'stayv@s@nt/ STIGH-v's'nt.

Van Wyck (a very old family; but the first mayor of Greater New York,
in 1898) is properly [wajk] but his expressway is the Van [wIk] WICK.

On 2022-08-21, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> <google@rudhar.com> wrote:

>> > https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter
>> > Wonder how that name is pronounced in German and English.
>
>> And here in English:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEpZ7EkCAsI&t=50s
>
> Is that a Griter or a Groyter?

Groyter, i.e. the CHOICE vowel.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Op 21/08/2022 om 17:50 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> Sun, 21 Aug 2022 16:59:21 +0200: wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> scribeva:
>
>> Op 21/08/2022 om 16:27 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>> Sun, 21 Aug 2022 05:45:01 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>>> <grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 4:05:59 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>> Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:23:05 +1200: Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz>
>>>>> scribeva:
>>>>
>>>>>> © 2022 Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin/Boston
>>>>> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Gruyter
>>>>> Wonder how that name is pronounced in German and English. It is
>>>>> originally Dutch, obviously. We had a grocery store stain by that name
>>>>> until recently. Or grocery may even what the name or word meant.
>>>>
>>>> They're a major publisher in Oriental Studies and Linguistics.
>>>> In English, /d@'graytr/ "d'GRIGH-tr."
>>>
>>> [obvious typo corrected]
>>>
>>> I agree, that's the closest you can get. But in Dutch, graait and
>>> gruit are not the same.
>>
>> In Africa I've been called monsieur Vitse, Vuitse, Vouitse, OUeuilletse,
>> and Mister Whites, Woyts and Yoot. Though generally monsieur Guido, and
>> G(w)eedowe.
>
> Quite amusing. Or tragic and irritating? No, amusing I would think.

So it was. And you? Root? Rude? (E, F)

--
guido wugi

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 8:33:27 AM UTC-7, Tim Lang wrote:
> On 21.08.2022 14:34, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> >Dutch <ui> is a diphthong, from half open to closed, almost front,
> >rounded. Starts with the first element of French oeil (eye), and ends
> >in the ü of German Brücke.
>>
[yœ] or [yø]?
Either of those starts closed and progresses to more open.
So, "half open to closed" looks like an incorrect description.
>
> So for native speakers of German dialects rather Gröjter and Stöjvesant?
> (BTW: Are there no examples/exceptions of the long-u /u:/ transformation
> /öj/ instead of South German and ... Englisch /au/? In the /au/ world:
> Hus > Haus, house, Mus > Maus, mouse, ut > aus, out etc. In these cases
> Dutch seems to have ut and uit only.)
>
> thnx
> Tim

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 5:34:46 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> Dutch <ui> is a diphthong, from half open to closed, almost front,
> rounded.

[œy].
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Dutch>
AFAIK, [œj] would be identical.

Starts with the first element of French oeil (eye), and ends
> in the ü of German Brücke.

You got the start and end backwards.

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 8:34:46 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sun, 21 Aug 2022 10:45:59 +0200: Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> scribeva:
> >On 21.08.2022 10:05, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >
> >>https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kruidenier#Dutch
> >
> >But this kruidenier ("grocer; Krämer, Nahrungsmittelhändler") has a
> >similar pronunciation. Maybe Gruyter is only an older Dutch spelling?
> Don't think so, kruid is an existing word, and k and g aren't easily
> exchangeable.
> >BTW: how is it to be pronounced? Gröjter or Grüjter? Or, as in German,
> >... Kräuter /k???t??/? :-) OMG: Ger. "Kräuter" = Dutch "kruiden".
>
> Dutch <ui> is a diphthong, from half open to closed, almost front,
> rounded. Starts with the first element of French oeil (eye), and ends
> in the ü of German Brücke.
>
> <ui> is the rounded counterpart of <ei> and <ij>.
> >So, a kruidenier might initially have been someone who dealt with ...
> >herbs?
> Yes. And specerijen, spices, like kruidnagelen, nootmuskaat, kaneel.
> >In German singular Kraut, Kräuter; meaning not only "cabbage,
> >cole" (chiefly in Southern German dialects), but also "herb, weed" in
> >general; for "weed", esp. "Unkraut".
> >cf the saying "Unkraut vergeht (or) verdirbt nicht" <= Latin "Mala herba
> >non interit". (I'm not sure: 'Ill weeds grow apace?')
> Onkruid vergaat niet, yes.
> --
> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Surely 'the grater' no? Grate cabbage to make cole slaw, grate spices & garble, re-gret/grieve graetel, grid/grill, sib/sift/sieve, seep/weep all link.. Grocer sells the gratings of the field/forest/factory. (Cabbage reminds me of shabbat, the gratings/shavings of the workweek).

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 2:47:02 AM UTC-4, daud....@gmail.com wrote:

(Cabbage reminds me of shabbat, the gratings/shavings of the workweek).

What does cabbage have to do with resting?

https://www.etymonline.com/word/sabbath

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 7:46:26 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 2:47:02 AM UTC-4, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> (Cabbage reminds me of shabbat, the gratings/shavings of the workweek).
> What does cabbage have to do with resting?

Nothing semantically, just the sound similarity triggered the comparison.

> https://www.etymonline.com/word/sabbath

Indonesian kepala: head
From Malay kepala, from Classical Malay: کڤالا‎ (kepala), from Pali kapāla, from Sanskrit कपाल (kapāla, “skull”), from Proto-Indo-Aryan *kapā́las, from Proto-Indo-Iranian *kapā́las, from Proto-Indo-European *káp-ōl (“head, bowl”).

https://www.etymonline.com/word/*kaput-#etymonline_v_53095
*Kaput *káp-ōl xyuambuatl: bowl/dome sieve-basket, cup/cap, from dome dwelling
(Wombelle umbel)

The word sabbath stems from what? Sit? Stop? Recline? I think it is from consuming the proceeds of the work week, the gleanings/gratings of labor to prepare for the morrow.