Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

The truth about a man lies first and foremost in what he hides. -- Andre Malraux


interests / sci.anthropology.paleo / Re: Human language evolution

SubjectAuthor
* Human language evolutionDD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves
`* Re: Human language evolutionlittor...@gmail.com
 `* Re: Human language evolutionJTEM is so reasonable
  `- Re: Human language evolutionlittor...@gmail.com

1
Human language evolution

<d0e40f5a-79b1-4a2a-8734-eba18ca8552dn@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=15053&group=sci.anthropology.paleo#15053

  copy link   Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:2601:b0:6bc:70bb:c56b with SMTP id z1-20020a05620a260100b006bc70bbc56bmr18530231qko.416.1665525340770;
Tue, 11 Oct 2022 14:55:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:ba07:0:b0:6a7:82bb:1041 with SMTP id
t7-20020a25ba07000000b006a782bb1041mr24069655ybg.102.1665525340415; Tue, 11
Oct 2022 14:55:40 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 14:55:40 -0700 (PDT)
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2607:fb90:903c:8f21:0:2e:481c:e501;
posting-account=EMmeqwoAAAA_LjVgdifHm2aHM2oOTKz0
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2607:fb90:903c:8f21:0:2e:481c:e501
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <d0e40f5a-79b1-4a2a-8734-eba18ca8552dn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Human language evolution
From: daud.de...@gmail.com (DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves)
Injection-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:55:40 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 4352
 by: DD'eDeN aka not - Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:55 UTC

Language evolution

https://www.newscientist.com/round-up/instant_expert-evolution_of_language/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/science-events/dawn-of-language/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24232280-500-the-origins-of-language-discovered-in-music-mime-and-mimicry/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23731660-600-the-tamed-ape-were-humans-the-first-animal-to-be-domesticated/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25333792-600-how-language-evolved-a-new-idea-suggests-its-all-just-a-game/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2295502-dogs-can-pick-out-individual-words-when-we-speak-to-them/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2266828-orangutans-create-new-ways-to-communicate-with-each-other-in-captivity/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2267734-chimpanzees-seem-to-speak-in-sentences-of-three-or-more-calls/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2216353-we-may-have-a-basic-form-of-sign-language-in-common-with-chimpanzees/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25534041-300-simple-puzzles-are-revealing-why-humans-are-the-only-talking-apes/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126986-400-review-adams-tongue-by-derek-bickerton-and-finding-our-tongues-by-dean-falk/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926691-800-the-evolutionary-story-of-the-language-gene/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2333278-losing-parts-of-our-voice-box-may-have-helped-humans-evolve-to-speak/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2196580-humans-couldnt-pronounce-f-and-v-sounds-before-farming-developed/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2269577-neanderthal-ears-were-tuned-to-hear-speech-just-like-modern-humans/?utm_source=nshum&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nshum_111022&utm_term=Newsletter%20NSHUM_Our%20Human%20Story

Re: Human language evolution

<bccfbea8-f25c-4c3a-be01-4c968753aa9an@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=15055&group=sci.anthropology.paleo#15055

  copy link   Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
X-Received: by 2002:a0c:df11:0:b0:4b4:ccd:ad5a with SMTP id g17-20020a0cdf11000000b004b40ccdad5amr8682315qvl.111.1665526580286;
Tue, 11 Oct 2022 15:16:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:309:b0:6b4:61c3:d991 with SMTP id
b9-20020a056902030900b006b461c3d991mr25872646ybs.394.1665526579962; Tue, 11
Oct 2022 15:16:19 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 15:16:19 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <d0e40f5a-79b1-4a2a-8734-eba18ca8552dn@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2a02:a03f:89ec:6000:dd3e:46bb:fc64:79ad;
posting-account=od9E6wkAAADQ0Qm7G0889JKn_DjHJ-bA
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2a02:a03f:89ec:6000:dd3e:46bb:fc64:79ad
References: <d0e40f5a-79b1-4a2a-8734-eba18ca8552dn@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <bccfbea8-f25c-4c3a-be01-4c968753aa9an@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Human language evolution
From: littoral...@gmail.com (littor...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 22:16:20 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 3614
 by: littor...@gmail.com - Tue, 11 Oct 2022 22:16 UTC

Human speech+language evolution is best explained by our hominoid descent & our waterside evolution.
In short, we see (at least) 4 preadaptions:
- hominoid loud territorial calls (laryngeal descent cf. apes, incl. hylobatid songs),
- voluntary breathing (an adaptation for shallow-diving, probably mostly for shellfish, probably early-Pleistocene),
- fine oral movements (lips, tongue, throat, incl. hyoidal descent, for sucking shellfish etc.),
- huge brain (cf. DHA etc. in seafoods, cf. dolphins).
My publications on these subjects:
1986 E Morgan & M Verhaegen New Scientist 1498:62-63 “In the beginning was the water”
1987 Hum Evol 2:381 “Speech origins”
1988 Specul Sci Technol 11:165-171 “Aquatic ape theory and speech origins: a hypothesis”
1992 Language Origins Society Forum 15:17-18 “KNM-ER 1470 and KNM-ER 1805 endocasts”
1995 Med Hypoth 44:409-413 “Aquatic ape theory, speech origins, and brain differences with apes and monkeys”
1995 ReVision 18:34-38 “ Aquatic ape theory, the brain cortex, and language origins”
1997 Hadewijch Antwerp 220 pp “In den Beginne was het Water – Nieuwste Inzichten in de Evolutie van de Mens”
1999 M Verhaegen & S Munro Mother Tongue V:161-168 “Bipeds, tools and speech”
2000 M Verhaegen & S Munro p.236-240“The origins of phonetic abilities: a study of the comparative data with reference to the aquatic theory” in J-L Dessalles, L Ghadakpour eds 2000 "The Evolution of Language" Ecole Nat Sup Télécommunications Paris proceedings“The origins of phonetic abilities: a study of the comparative data with reference to the aquatic theory”
2004 M Verhaegen & S Munro Hum Evol 19:53-70 “Possible preadaptations to speech – a preliminary comparative approach”
2011 M Vaneechoutte, S Munro & M Verhaegen “Seafood, diving, song and speech” p.181-9 in M Vaneechoutte cs eds 2011 ebook Bentham Sci Publ Was Man More Aquatic in the Past? Fifty Years after Alister Hardy: Waterside Hypotheses of Human Evolution"
2022 Eburon Utrecht NL 325 pp “De Evolutie van de Mens - waarom wij rechtop lopen en kunnen spreken”
:-)

Re: Human language evolution

<3fe1ba25-2e97-48bb-8a64-581d0de3600en@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=15068&group=sci.anthropology.paleo#15068

  copy link   Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:21a6:b0:4b2:d753:ed24 with SMTP id t6-20020a05621421a600b004b2d753ed24mr1298052qvc.78.1665691776289;
Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:09:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a81:2544:0:b0:360:c270:15a1 with SMTP id
l65-20020a812544000000b00360c27015a1mr1549141ywl.67.1665691776029; Thu, 13
Oct 2022 13:09:36 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:09:35 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <bccfbea8-f25c-4c3a-be01-4c968753aa9an@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2601:192:4c7f:4ba0:dd0:51b8:b23b:64bf;
posting-account=Si1SKwoAAADpFF5n-E1OIJfy3ARZBlIl
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2601:192:4c7f:4ba0:dd0:51b8:b23b:64bf
References: <d0e40f5a-79b1-4a2a-8734-eba18ca8552dn@googlegroups.com> <bccfbea8-f25c-4c3a-be01-4c968753aa9an@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <3fe1ba25-2e97-48bb-8a64-581d0de3600en@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Human language evolution
From: jte...@gmail.com (JTEM is so reasonable)
Injection-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 20:09:36 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 1896
 by: JTEM is so reasonabl - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 20:09 UTC

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> Human speech+language evolution is best explained by our hominoid descent & our waterside evolution.
> In short, we see (at least) 4 preadaptions:
> - hominoid loud territorial calls (laryngeal descent cf. apes, incl. hylobatid songs),
> - voluntary breathing (an adaptation for shallow-diving, probably mostly for shellfish, probably early-Pleistocene),

I think this is the most telling. People had to control their breathing. They had to be
able to take control of when they inhale and when/how they exhale. BECAUSE they
were swimming/diving.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/697985570801057792

Re: Human language evolution

<21517b5f-9a27-46c2-9e2c-56eb80dda594n@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=15070&group=sci.anthropology.paleo#15070

  copy link   Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5c05:0:b0:35c:bacf:2f55 with SMTP id i5-20020ac85c05000000b0035cbacf2f55mr1851470qti.538.1665699016981;
Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:10:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:34c6:0:b0:6be:3e52:3239 with SMTP id
b189-20020a2534c6000000b006be3e523239mr2022382yba.430.1665699016735; Thu, 13
Oct 2022 15:10:16 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology.paleo
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:10:16 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <3fe1ba25-2e97-48bb-8a64-581d0de3600en@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2a02:a03f:89ec:6000:dd3e:46bb:fc64:79ad;
posting-account=od9E6wkAAADQ0Qm7G0889JKn_DjHJ-bA
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2a02:a03f:89ec:6000:dd3e:46bb:fc64:79ad
References: <d0e40f5a-79b1-4a2a-8734-eba18ca8552dn@googlegroups.com>
<bccfbea8-f25c-4c3a-be01-4c968753aa9an@googlegroups.com> <3fe1ba25-2e97-48bb-8a64-581d0de3600en@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <21517b5f-9a27-46c2-9e2c-56eb80dda594n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Human language evolution
From: littoral...@gmail.com (littor...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 22:10:16 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 2285
 by: littor...@gmail.com - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 22:10 UTC

Op donderdag 13 oktober 2022 om 22:09:36 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

> > Human speech+language evolution is best explained by our hominoid descent & our waterside evolution.
> > In short, we see (at least) 4 preadaptions:
> > - hominoid loud territorial calls (laryngeal descent cf. apes, incl. hylobatid songs),
> > - voluntary breathing (an adaptation for shallow-diving, probably mostly for shellfish, probably early-Pleistocene),

> I think this is the most telling. People had to control their breathing. They had to be
> able to take control of when they inhale and when/how they exhale. BECAUSE they
> were swimming/diving.

Yes, voluntary breathing for diving was essential, no doubt, but the shellfish-suction adaptations (hyoidal descent, free lips & tongue movements) & perhaps also the brain enlargement (seafood: DHA etc.?) were also very important?
In any case, it's clear that our speech adaptations originated in our littoral past.

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.81
clearnet tor